Metagame ORAS/XY PU (Serperior Banned)

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Ares

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Musharna needs to GTFO. People have touched on the fact that Musharna only has 8pp for Moonlight and that this hinders it, I have to disagree. Very few matches will Musharna use up all of its Moonlight pp, and usually when it does the user misplayed and used it when it wasn't needed. As TRC and Fizz touched on there are very few things that can 2HKO mushy and even less can OHKO it. It is so bulky on the physical side and with a couple of Calm Minds up it becomes so bulky on the special side. Not to mention in Musharna's 4th move slot it can run something that counters any check. Twave checks any fast physical attacker and provides general utility for mushys team. Heal Bell stops any attempt at checking mushy with status and lets Musharna get a late game sweep. Baton Pass allows mushy to setup multiple Calm Minds and then right before its about to die it can pass out to a teammate to continue the sweep, not to mention Musharna can provide team support early on as a bulky slow pivot. Signal Beam allows Musharna to beat other Musharnas and to beat and of the Dark-types trying to check it. On top of all this Musharna can run a number of other sets like Specs or Trick Room.

Tl;dr Musharna is way to bulky and needs to get the fuck out, all for a suspect test.

Edit: completely forgot to touch on how Synchronize also cripples the status setter, oh I'm going to Toxic stall mushy...nope I'm now the one dying of Toxic. I'm going to Twave it to slow it down and flinch it to death...nope I'm slow as well. Not to mention mushy just used heal bell and now I'm the only one with a status.
 
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Ares

Fool me...can't get fooled again
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The day Musharna gets banned is that day I don't NEED a dark-type on my team any more
This might of already been touched upon in this thread, but if mushy is a huge problem for you then I suggest running specially defensive Bastiodon. Access to Toxic and immune to the synchronize of it. Also has access to Roar to phase out mushy if it tries to setup. Not ideal for every team but one of the few hard counters in the tier.
 
This might of already been touched upon in this thread, but if mushy is a huge problem for you then I suggest running specially defensive Bastiodon. Access to Toxic and immune to the synchronize of it. Also has access to Roar to phase out mushy if it tries to setup. Not ideal for every team but one of the few hard counters in the tier.
Bastiodon hard loses to last Pokemom Musharna tho, unless it runs Taunt.

Anyway I think Musharna might be broken. While the Thunder Wave pivot set is certainly good/fat/hard to kill I feel like it is not using Musharna to its fullest potential because defensive teams simply don't give a shit about it and most offensive teams put enough pressure on it with entry hazards and powerful attacks that, while not being able to do 2HKO, put enough pressure on Musharna to force it to spam Moonlight. Not to mention that if it tries to pivot on a moderately strong it risks putting itself in 2HKO range of another powerful attacker on the next switch in.

The set I truly consider broken is the Calm Mind + Baton Pass set. While it might not have the utility the pivot set has early game (arguable) it is able to take advantage of the free turns it can easily get incredibly well increasing it's offensive potential, making itself progressively harder to kill, and powering up a win condition (like Scarf or Life Orb Rotom but even Life Orb Simipour or Ninetales can work) to the point it is able to sweep late game.
I think I don't need calcs to prove my point as anybody who has played the tier knows how fat Musharna is lol.

To end this post I want to say that the metagame has heavily adapted around Musharna and many players have ways of beating it in any team such as Scyther in offense, Taunt Misdreavus and the mighty Natu in more balanced or stall team, and random sets that beat it like TAUNT THROH and Grumpig and most bulkier SD Torterra (its very good), but the fact that Musharna has a chance to beat those if they are a bit weakened and that the checks who can beat both sets are limited makes me think that Musharna is broken in PU
 

Ares

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Bastiodon hard loses to last Pokemom Musharna tho, unless it runs Taunt.

Anyway I think Musharna might be broken. While the Thunder Wave pivot set is certainly good/fat/hard to kill I feel like it is not using Musharna to its fullest potential because defensive teams simply don't give a shit about it and most offensive teams put enough pressure on it with entry hazards and powerful attacks that, while not being able to do 2HKO, put enough pressure on Musharna to force it to spam Moonlight. Not to mention that if it tries to pivot on a moderately strong it risks putting itself in 2HKO range of another powerful attacker on the next switch in.

The set I truly consider broken is the Calm Mind + Baton Pass set. While it might not have the utility the pivot set has early game (arguable) it is able to take advantage of the free turns it can easily get incredibly well increasing it's offensive potential, making itself progressively harder to kill, and powering up a win condition (like Scarf or Life Orb Rotom but even Life Orb Simipour or Ninetales can work) to the point it is able to sweep late game.
I think I don't need calcs to prove my point as anybody who has played the tier knows how fat Musharna is lol.

To end this post I want to say that the metagame has heavily adapted around Musharna and many players have ways of beating it in any team such as Scyther in offense, Taunt Misdreavus and the mighty Natu in more balanced or stall team, and random sets that beat it like TAUNT THROH and Grumpig and most bulkier SD Torterra (its very good), but the fact that Musharna has a chance to beat those if they are a bit weakened and that the checks who can beat both sets are limited makes me think that Musharna is broken in PU
How does it lose to last pokemon Mushy? If Mushy isnt running Heal Bell Mushy loses right away, and even if it is there is still a pretty good chance that it will lose anyways. And if you are really worried about it being last and potentialy losing you can run Metal Burst ;o
 
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How does it lose to last pokemon Mushy? If Mushy isnt running Heal Bell Mushy loses right away, and even if it is there is still a pretty good chance that it will lose anyways. And if you are really worried about it being last and potentialy losing you can run Metal Burst ;o
Metal Brust has normal priority, and musha base speed is 1 point less than bast.
Use min speed can work, but musha can also run it.
 

The Leprechaun

wear nike not fila
is a Tiering Contributor Alumnus
Had a really good game against Mawli, the bloke who is #1 on the ladder. http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/pu-170062491
It shows off some really underused and under-rated threats in the current meta such as Quilladin, Klang, Altaria, Wigglytuff, Dusclops and Krokorok.
We were both running balance teams with hazard stacking, strong wall cores and then a couple of fast mons to clean up late game. Unfortunately i lost to a gear grind miss on what would have been the last turn but it was a gg nonetheless. Here are some of the sets i was running.



Quilladin @ Eviolite
Ability: Bulletproof
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Impish Nature
- Spikes
- Brick Break Toxic/ Leech Seed
- Seed Bomb
- Synthesis

This mon is extremely overlooked at the moment and is actually the lowest mon out of these four in the viability ranking. With 61/95/58 + eviolite bulk it can take physical hits extremely well while also setting spikes and healing itself with synthesis. Its typing means that it completely walls carracosta, poliwrath, sneasel without ice punch and barbaracle not carrying aerial ace. Its ability also means that it's immune to haunter's main stab moves which is pretty hilarious when it happens. With access to moves like leech seed, bulk up taunt it has several options on what it can do.

(I thought quilladin was grass/fighting for a long time, turns out it's pure grass ://. Still bulky though)

252 Atk Life Orb Sheer Force Tauros Rock Climb vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Quilladin: 103-122 (31.5 - 37.4%) -- 86.4% chance to 3HKO
252 Atk Life Orb Rapidash Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Quilladin: 213-252 (65.3 - 77.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252 Atk Life Orb Sneasel Ice Shard vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Quilladin: 135-164 (41.4 - 50.3%) -- 0.4% chance to 2HKO
+2 252 Atk Life Orb Sneasel Ice Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Quilladin: 257-304 (78.8 - 93.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
0 Atk Piloswine Icicle Spear (3 hits) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Quilladin: 90-108 (27.6 - 33.1%) -- guaranteed 4HKO




Klang @ Eviolite
Ability: Clear Body
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 Def
Impish Nature
- Shift Gear
- Gear Grind
- Rest
- Sleep Talk

Klang is pretty fantastic but finds it hard to deal with some of the mons of the tier, specifically poliwrath and a number of fire types. Its typing and extremely good bulk make it extremely effective once these mons have been dealt with. This rest talk set makes other physical walls such as tangela and gourgeist complete set-up fodder making it easy to sweep once its checks have been removed. Best partnered with a lot of hazards particularly toxic spikes as it's often not all that powerful so a large amount of prior damage is often needed.



Altaria @ Dragon Fang
Ability: Natural Cure
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Draco Meteor
- Power Swap
- Fire Blast
- Roost

Really fun and surprisingly effective set atm. With there being very few fairies in this tier, altaria has a great time. Even though it has low special attack for an offensive mon, its high powered moves paired with dragon fang and power swap make it a really annoying poke to deal with. Another nice niche this thing has is its ability to beat cm musharna consistently by constantly stealing its boosts.



Wigglytuff @ Leftovers
Ability: Competitive
EVs: 252 Def / 252 SpD / 4 Spe
Calm Nature
- Wish
- Heal Bell
- Protect
- Dazzling Gleam

Great typing, good mixed bulk, huge wishes to pass and a reliable heal bell user. While it does receive competition from lickllicky in this role, wiggly's typing allows it to beat some of the dark and fighting type attackers of the tier. Also worth noting that it has near perfect synergy with any ghost type. All in all a really effective mon to use.
 
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Well i haven't played it until recently... which is sad because i was thinking about a lot of Grass threats like Lilligant, Exeggutor, Cacturne and Leafeon that were raised to NU could be taken down by a simple and pathetic Fletchling... Sadly with them banished from PU, i'm asking myself (and all of you of course)... it's Fletchling competitive enough to beat some of the Bug, Fighting and Grass Types that are right now in PU?

Let's see first how can it deal with those Quiver Dancing and Chlorophyll Threats:
252+ Atk Fletchling Acrobatics (110 BP) vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Lilligant: 278-330 (98.5 - 117%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO
252+ Atk Fletchling Acrobatics (110 BP) vs. 152 HP / 0 Def Exeggutor: 252-296 (68.2 - 80.2%) -- 75% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock and 2 layers of Spikes
252+ Atk Fletchling Acrobatics (110 BP) vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Leafeon: 176-210 (64.7 - 77.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (And Leafeon can't OHKO Fletch)
252+ Atk Fletchling Acrobatics (110 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Cacturne: 332-392 (96.5 - 113.9%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO

And then, let's see how it fares against some Threats:

First, Leavanny and Kricketune:
252+ Atk Fletchling Acrobatics (110 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Kricketune: 372-440 (103.9 - 122.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Fletchling Acrobatics (110 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Leavanny: 364-432 (102.8 - 122%) -- guaranteed OHKO

But that can be done also by Dodrio, which can also deal with Fighting Types since they are also slower than it...

If we reduce the suspects to those pokémon that could be faster than Dodrio we have:
Scarf Chatot
252+ Atk Fletchling Acrobatics (110 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Chatot: 204-240 (69.6 - 81.9%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Life Orb Chatot Boomburst vs. 184 HP / 0 SpD Fletchling: 495-582 (178.7 - 210.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO

At least you have a nice chance at knocking out enough HP to beat it with another Priority move not named Shadow Sneak

Jumpluff
252+ Atk Fletchling Acrobatics (110 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Jumpluff: 294-348 (83 - 98.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

Jumpluff usually doesn't run attack moves and if it's an offensive one, Fletch will destroy it nonetheless... So, if you have SR in the Field, you will probably have a precious chance to get your Fletch to +2 or your opponent will have one pokèmon down.

Smash Huntail
252+ Atk Fletchling Acrobatics (110 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Huntail: 105-124 (33.4 - 39.4%) -- 21% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
+2 252+ Atk Fletchling Acrobatics (110 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Huntail: 210-247 (66.8 - 78.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
4 Atk Huntail Waterfall vs. 184 HP / 72 Def Fletchling: 151-178 (54.5 - 64.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Well... this isn't that favorable for Fletchling, since even Unboosted Huntail can manage the 2HKO... so, unless your opponent is stupid enough to let you get +2 before fighting it, you will probably lose.

Ninjask
252+ Atk Fletchling Acrobatics (110 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Ninjask: 252-296 (77.3 - 90.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
0 Atk Ninjask X-Scissor vs. 184 HP / 72 Def Fletchling: 66-78 (23.8 - 28.1%) -- 94.7% chance to 4HKO

Even if Fletch doesn't manage to get the OHKO in a fully defensive Ninjask, at least you can unable it to get substitutes, which is actually cool...

Purugly
252+ Atk Fletchling Acrobatics (110 BP) vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Purugly: 157-186 (55.2 - 65.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Silk Scarf Purugly Return vs. 184 HP / 72 Def Fletchling: 246-291 (88.8 - 105%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO
252 Atk Purugly Sucker Punch vs. 184 HP / 72 Def Fletchling: 108-128 (38.9 - 46.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 Atk Silk Scarf Purugly Fake Out vs. 184 HP / 72 Def Fletchling: 97-115 (35 - 41.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
+2 252 Atk Purugly Sucker Punch vs. 184 HP / 72 Def Fletchling: 215-254 (77.6 - 91.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Purugly can't even beat Fletch with a Fake Out/Sucker Punch Combo, which means that isn't exactly a safe switch in for it... of course that's unless you have Sticky web and you activate Purugly's Ability...

Serperior
252+ Atk Fletchling Acrobatics (110 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Serperior: 230-272 (64.9 - 76.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
4 SpA Serperior Giga Drain vs. 184 HP / 0- SpD Fletchling: 75-89 (27 - 32.1%) -- guaranteed 4HKO

This can be pretty annoying if it manages to get the Screens and you just get low damage rolls, but otherwise, you should be fine... Sadly, in this Case, Dodrio can do the same job...

Simisage
252+ Atk Fletchling Acrobatics (110 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Simisage: 320-378 (109.9 - 129.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
4 SpA Simisage Hidden Power Rock vs. 184 HP / 0 SpD Fletchling: 180-212 (64.9 - 76.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Scarf Mixed Simisage can't beat Fletch even if it catches it in the switch in but Dodrio:
252 Atk Simisage Superpower vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Dodrio: 144-170 (54.9 - 64.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
4 SpA Simisage Hidden Power Rock vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Dodrio: 130-154 (49.6 - 58.7%) -- 99.6% chance to 2HKO
252 Atk Simisage Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Dodrio: 117-138 (44.6 - 52.6%) -- 22.7% chance to 2HKO
Which means that it can be kicked out if it get's hit in the switch in...

Simipour
252+ Atk Fletchling Acrobatics (110 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Simipour: 160-189 (54.9 - 64.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Simipour Focus Blast vs. 184 HP / 0 SpD Fletchling: 226-267 (81.5 - 96.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Of course, Fletch will get kicked by ice beam and hydro pump, but you know what? Dodrio can also be beaten by those attacks:
252 SpA Simipour Ice Beam vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Dodrio: 244-288 (93.1 - 109.9%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO
252 SpA Simipour Hydro Pump vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Dodrio: 223-264 (85.1 - 100.7%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO
The probability is clearly lower than with Fletch, but is also annoying...

Sand Rush Stoutland

252+ Atk Fletchling Acrobatics (110 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Stoutland: 120-142 (38.5 - 45.6%) -- 15.6% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Choice Band Stoutland Crunch vs. 184 HP / 72 Def Fletchling: 215-254 (77.6 - 91.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Stoutland Fire Fang vs. 184 HP / 72 Def Fletchling: 175-206 (63.1 - 74.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

If you get in against Crunch and Fire Fang you should be able to resist and beat a really weakened Stoutland... otherwise it's a pretty lost matchup.

Chlorophyll Victreebel

252+ Atk Fletchling Acrobatics (110 BP) vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Victreebel: 312-368 (103.3 - 121.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ SpA Life Orb Victreebel Solar Beam vs. 184 HP / 0 SpD Fletchling: 246-289 (88.8 - 104.3%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO
252+ SpA Life Orb Victreebel Sludge Bomb vs. 184 HP / 0 SpD Fletchling: 368-434 (132.8 - 156.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
0 Atk Life Orb Victreebel Sucker Punch vs. 184 HP / 72 Def Fletchling: 133-156 (48 - 56.3%) -- 84.8% chance to 2HKO
252+ SpA Life Orb Victreebel Weather Ball (100 BP Fire) vs. 184 HP / 0 SpD Fletchling in Sun: 411-484 (148.3 - 174.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO

This one will be pretty hard to switch in... but then you will kick it easily, even if you get hit by a Sucker Punch... Sadly, this it's exactly the same case for Dodrio...

Sneasel
252+ Atk Fletchling Acrobatics (110 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Sneasel: 177-208 (70.5 - 82.8%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Life Orb Sneasel Ice Shard vs. 184 HP / 72 Def Fletchling: 234-276 (84.4 - 99.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

This one is pretty likable since Flecth can Withstand the Priority Ice Shard and can even get the KO with SR help and some luck... And Sadly:
252 Atk Choice Band Dodrio Quick Attack vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Sneasel: 141-166 (56.1 - 66.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

Which means that you are going to get kicked by Sneasel one vs one if this one does have Ice Punch (and i have been seen it really frequently)
252 Atk Life Orb Sneasel Ice Punch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Dodrio: 346-408 (132 - 155.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO

And another one that i like, even if isn't fast:
Musharna
+2 252+ Atk Fletchling Acrobatics (110 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Musharna: 175-207 (40.1 - 47.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
Isn't that bad considering Musharna is the bulkiest pokè in the Tier... which means that it can pressure Musharna into Moonlight to recover the lost HP and then go for a PP depletion that will worn it down... Of course... that's as long as you get your Fletch to +2, which isn't that hard considering its ability to scare Grass, Bug and Fighting pokès.

Using That evidence, i think that we can confirm that Fletchling is viable in PU... but i would love to hear more info from you guys to see another scenarios in which Fletch could be useful and not outclassed by other pokès like Dodrio or Chatot.

Cya
 

Gary

Can be abrasive at times (no joke)
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Started trying out this tier for the first time today after getting frustrated as fuck with OU, and I must say I'm really liking the creativity and diversity this tier has to offer. It's also quite balanced at the moment, except for maybe Musharna and possibly Sneasel but eh not a huge deal to me. So far I've found Sticky Web offense to be one of the most successful playstyles thus far. There's just so many Pokemon out there with a low speed benchmark, such as Carracosta, Barbaracle, Marowak, Rampardos, and Flareon, but Sticky Web support remedies this and makes them god tier sweepers/wall breakers. My favorite Pokemon to use on Webs by far is NP Chatot. It's already got a pretty decent Speed stat, but that extra speed puts it above practically the entire unboosted metagame, allowing it to basically spam Boomburst freely. Encore is a great move to have on it, because it gives it a lot of set up opportunities against boosters or defensive mons. The power is unreal.


Chatot @ Life Orb
Ability: Keen Eye
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Nasty Plot
- Boomburst
- Chatter
- Encore

At first I debated on whether or not Chatter is needed, seeing as how even after factoring in STAB and a super effective hit, Boomburst still outdamages it by quite a lot. However, with the prevalence of Ghost-types such as Gourgeist, Dusclops, Misdreavus, and Haunter, Chatter is needed in order to get past them. You could also opt to run HP Grass over Encore if you want to lure in some of its common checks, such as Golem, Barbaracle, but eh that's what teammates are for. Seeing as how Chatot struggles to find many opportunities to set up due to its poor bulk and typing, Encore is a really nice tool and imo not a very expendable moveslot.
 
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Ares

Fool me...can't get fooled again
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So Scorp talked about it a couple of pages ago, but he had HP water ?.? and passho berry (which is a good lure). But I want to talk about Ninetales again because atm it is ridiculously good at breaking stall and even sweeping on balance/HO teams. With Nasty Plot and fantastic coverage between Fire Blast / Flamethrower, Energy Ball, and Psyshock, Ninetales has all of the characteristics of a great setup sweeper. It has a pretty good speed tier at base 100 speed, and has decent bulk allowing it to take a hit or two from priority or while setting up. Not to mention with Flash Fire it becomes a good fire check if your team is weak to fire spam.



Ninetales @ Leftovers
Ability: Flash Fire
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Nasty Plot
- Flamethrower / Fire Blast
- Psyshock
- Energy Ball

Set is pretty straight forward. Max speed and special attack to hit as hard as possible while still outspeeding stuff. Timid for more speed. Leftovers is for increased longevity, I personally am not a huge fan of LO. Nasty Plot for boosting, Flamethrower for more PP and 100% accuracy or Fire Blast to hit harder, Psyshock to hit special walls on the physical side and for anything its super effective against no Hariyama or Dragalage to nail, Energy Ball is for Water-types like Poliwrath who will try to check Ninetales. Fun set, try it out.


I also wanted to talk about how surprisingly good Mono-ice is. I originally made a mono ice team just for fun expecting it to be terrible, but it turned out to be really really good. It obviously struggles with a couple of fire types like Substitute Simisear, but other than that it was quite good. It has some really awesome threats on it which is how I originally thought of making Mono Ice, I started off with lead Delibird and sub split Rotom Frost and saw the huge amount of ice types and decided to go with a mono ice team.



Rotom-Frost @ Life Orb
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Substitute
- Pain Split
- Thunderbolt
- Blizzard

Aurorus @ Choice Specs
Ability: Refrigerate
EVs: 176 HP / 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 76 Spe
Modest Nature
- Ancient Power
- Thunderbolt
- Nature Power
- Flash Cannon

Avalugg @ Leftovers
Ability: Sturdy
EVs: 248 HP / 148 Def / 112 SpD
Impish Nature
- Recover
- Rapid Spin
- Avalanche
- Mirror Coat

Articuno @ Leftovers
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 248 HP / 8 SpA / 252 SpD
Calm Nature
IVs: 30 Def / 30 SpA / 30 SpD
- Substitute
- Toxic
- Roost
- Freeze-Dry

Delibird @ Focus Sash
Ability: Vital Spirit
EVs: 252 HP / 4 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Spikes
- Destiny Bond
- Rapid Spin
- Freeze-Dry

Piloswine @ Eviolite
Ability: Thick Fat
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 SpD
Adamant Nature
- Stealth Rock
- Earthquake
- Ice Shard
- Icicle Spear


Will just comment on each of the mons and how good I think they are.

Rotom-Frost- this thing is a beast, sub split is so good against slower teams and between its to STABs very little is resisting it offensively. Blizzards accuracy sucks but what can you do. HP Ice imo

Aurorus- people keep underestimating this thing and they keep getting destroyed by it. Its ability is amazing in Refrigerate and lets it patch up its decent stats and hit like a truck, plus Tri-attack is such a good attack in the first place but then to have it STAB and 104 BP move plus the chance for all of those statuses. It can also run a banded set which catches people off guard and gets a ridiculously powerful 132.6 BP move with STAB, this physical set hits like a truck. I have also seen a Rock Polish set, but have yet to try it out so cant comment on it.

Avalugg- so originally when I chose this I was wary of it, because of the bad stigma that it gets in NU / RU. However after investing in SpD and giving it Mirror Coat Avalugg takes specially based moves really well and destroys literally everything with Mirror Coat.

Articuno- this was my special wall and it does a reasonably good job of toxic stalling things and taking hits, not much else to say there.

Delibird- people are like this is such a bad mon, however its suicide lead set is actually really good, guaranteed to get up a layer of spikes unless taunt and then usually getting a KO with Destiny Bond, just have to be aware of mons trying to set up on you. Freeze dry is for coverage, not really ment to be attacking anyways.

Piloswine- needed a good fire check and with Thick Fat Piloswine is able to check Fire-types reasonably well, this thing is ridiculously good and not much to say that hasnt already been said. Oh and I needed a stealth rock mon.

Yep so theres my team and thoughts on those Ice Pokemon. Feel free to use the whole team or a variation or even just one of the sets. And no Sneasel cause I'm just cool like that lol.
 
I'm just going to post my Raichu set because I think it works really well in PU right now.


Raichu @ Life Orb
Ability: Lightningrod
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Nasty Plot
- Thunderbolt
- Focus Blast
- Hidden Power [Ice]

It works really well against things that think they can make a safe switch-in against Thunderbolt. Gourgeist wants to switch in and put Leech Seed/Will-O-Wisp on you? +2 HP Ice is a guarenteed KO after the +0 Thunderbolt damage. Tangela wants to switch in on you? A +2 HP ice is an 81% chance at a KO from full. Lickilicky wants to wall you into oblivion with Wish/Protect? A +2 Focus Blast is a 2HKO on specially defensive Lickilicky. Raichu also rests in the 110 speed tier and is able to outspeed threats like Scyther, Haunter, Simipour, and Ninetails, among others, and ties with Tauros and Jumpluff. Electric/Ice/Fighting coverage hits the entire tier neutrally and with the boosted power from Nasty Plot and life orb, Raichu hits hard.
 
I was messing around the other day and made a team out of all the snakes in PU since there's a lot of them. I needed a defensive wall, so I tried out Eviolite Onix, and it's fairly unique. It has access to Stealth Rock and Taunt and enough speed to outpace most of the hazard setters in the tier. Sturdy means it guarantees a Taunt and rocks. Unfortunately, it has zero offensive presence, but tons of physical bulk. Its a fun mon to play around with.
 

Ares

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I was messing around the other day and made a team out of all the snakes in PU since there's a lot of them. I needed a defensive wall, so I tried out Eviolite Onix, and it's fairly unique. It has access to Stealth Rock and Taunt and enough speed to outpace most of the hazard setters in the tier. Sturdy means it guarantees a Taunt and rocks. Unfortunately, it has zero offensive presence, but tons of physical bulk. Its a fun mon to play around with.
Eviolite Onix was always a little bit underwhelming to me last gen for exactly the reasons you stated, zero offensive presence. I mean sure it can set up rocks and or taunt, but its pretty much dead weight after that not to mention a lot of faster things can easily get a sub or SD up before they are taunted and then KO Onix. Its pretty much outclassed by other rock setters who accomplish the same thing, like Golem who has Sturdy and can run a WP set so it can possibly get a mini sweep before dying after accomplishing the initial goal of setting up rocks. But I mean w/e floats your boat, just supposed to have fun ^.^
 
Well i haven't played it until recently... which is sad because i was thinking about a lot of Grass threats like Lilligant, Exeggutor, Cacturne and Leafeon that were raised to NU could be taken down by a simple and pathetic Fletchling... Sadly with them banished from PU, i'm asking myself (and all of you of course)... it's Fletchling competitive enough to beat some of the Bug, Fighting and Grass Types that are right now in PU?

Let's see first how can it deal with those Quiver Dancing and Chlorophyll Threats:
252+ Atk Fletchling Acrobatics (110 BP) vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Lilligant: 278-330 (98.5 - 117%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO
252+ Atk Fletchling Acrobatics (110 BP) vs. 152 HP / 0 Def Exeggutor: 252-296 (68.2 - 80.2%) -- 75% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock and 2 layers of Spikes
252+ Atk Fletchling Acrobatics (110 BP) vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Leafeon: 176-210 (64.7 - 77.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (And Leafeon can't OHKO Fletch)
252+ Atk Fletchling Acrobatics (110 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Cacturne: 332-392 (96.5 - 113.9%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO

And then, let's see how it fares against some Threats:

First, Leavanny and Kricketune:
252+ Atk Fletchling Acrobatics (110 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Kricketune: 372-440 (103.9 - 122.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Fletchling Acrobatics (110 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Leavanny: 364-432 (102.8 - 122%) -- guaranteed OHKO

But that can be done also by Dodrio, which can also deal with Fighting Types since they are also slower than it...

If we reduce the suspects to those pokémon that could be faster than Dodrio we have:
Scarf Chatot
252+ Atk Fletchling Acrobatics (110 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Chatot: 204-240 (69.6 - 81.9%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Life Orb Chatot Boomburst vs. 184 HP / 0 SpD Fletchling: 495-582 (178.7 - 210.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO

At least you have a nice chance at knocking out enough HP to beat it with another Priority move not named Shadow Sneak

Jumpluff
252+ Atk Fletchling Acrobatics (110 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Jumpluff: 294-348 (83 - 98.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

Jumpluff usually doesn't run attack moves and if it's an offensive one, Fletch will destroy it nonetheless... So, if you have SR in the Field, you will probably have a precious chance to get your Fletch to +2 or your opponent will have one pokèmon down.

Smash Huntail
252+ Atk Fletchling Acrobatics (110 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Huntail: 105-124 (33.4 - 39.4%) -- 21% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
+2 252+ Atk Fletchling Acrobatics (110 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Huntail: 210-247 (66.8 - 78.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
4 Atk Huntail Waterfall vs. 184 HP / 72 Def Fletchling: 151-178 (54.5 - 64.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Well... this isn't that favorable for Fletchling, since even Unboosted Huntail can manage the 2HKO... so, unless your opponent is stupid enough to let you get +2 before fighting it, you will probably lose.

Ninjask
252+ Atk Fletchling Acrobatics (110 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Ninjask: 252-296 (77.3 - 90.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
0 Atk Ninjask X-Scissor vs. 184 HP / 72 Def Fletchling: 66-78 (23.8 - 28.1%) -- 94.7% chance to 4HKO

Even if Fletch doesn't manage to get the OHKO in a fully defensive Ninjask, at least you can unable it to get substitutes, which is actually cool...

Purugly
252+ Atk Fletchling Acrobatics (110 BP) vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Purugly: 157-186 (55.2 - 65.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Silk Scarf Purugly Return vs. 184 HP / 72 Def Fletchling: 246-291 (88.8 - 105%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO
252 Atk Purugly Sucker Punch vs. 184 HP / 72 Def Fletchling: 108-128 (38.9 - 46.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 Atk Silk Scarf Purugly Fake Out vs. 184 HP / 72 Def Fletchling: 97-115 (35 - 41.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
+2 252 Atk Purugly Sucker Punch vs. 184 HP / 72 Def Fletchling: 215-254 (77.6 - 91.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Purugly can't even beat Fletch with a Fake Out/Sucker Punch Combo, which means that isn't exactly a safe switch in for it... of course that's unless you have Sticky web and you activate Purugly's Ability...

Serperior
252+ Atk Fletchling Acrobatics (110 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Serperior: 230-272 (64.9 - 76.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
4 SpA Serperior Giga Drain vs. 184 HP / 0- SpD Fletchling: 75-89 (27 - 32.1%) -- guaranteed 4HKO

This can be pretty annoying if it manages to get the Screens and you just get low damage rolls, but otherwise, you should be fine... Sadly, in this Case, Dodrio can do the same job...

Simisage
252+ Atk Fletchling Acrobatics (110 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Simisage: 320-378 (109.9 - 129.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
4 SpA Simisage Hidden Power Rock vs. 184 HP / 0 SpD Fletchling: 180-212 (64.9 - 76.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Scarf Mixed Simisage can't beat Fletch even if it catches it in the switch in but Dodrio:
252 Atk Simisage Superpower vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Dodrio: 144-170 (54.9 - 64.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
4 SpA Simisage Hidden Power Rock vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Dodrio: 130-154 (49.6 - 58.7%) -- 99.6% chance to 2HKO
252 Atk Simisage Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Dodrio: 117-138 (44.6 - 52.6%) -- 22.7% chance to 2HKO
Which means that it can be kicked out if it get's hit in the switch in...

Simipour
252+ Atk Fletchling Acrobatics (110 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Simipour: 160-189 (54.9 - 64.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Simipour Focus Blast vs. 184 HP / 0 SpD Fletchling: 226-267 (81.5 - 96.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Of course, Fletch will get kicked by ice beam and hydro pump, but you know what? Dodrio can also be beaten by those attacks:
252 SpA Simipour Ice Beam vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Dodrio: 244-288 (93.1 - 109.9%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO
252 SpA Simipour Hydro Pump vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Dodrio: 223-264 (85.1 - 100.7%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO
The probability is clearly lower than with Fletch, but is also annoying...
Sand Rush Stoutland
252+ Atk Fletchling Acrobatics (110 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Stoutland: 120-142 (38.5 - 45.6%) -- 15.6% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Choice Band Stoutland Crunch vs. 184 HP / 72 Def Fletchling: 215-254 (77.6 - 91.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Stoutland Fire Fang vs. 184 HP / 72 Def Fletchling: 175-206 (63.1 - 74.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

If you get in against Crunch and Fire Fang you should be able to resist and beat a really weakened Stoutland... otherwise it's a pretty lost matchup.
Chlorophyll Victreebel
252+ Atk Fletchling Acrobatics (110 BP) vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Victreebel: 312-368 (103.3 - 121.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ SpA Life Orb Victreebel Solar Beam vs. 184 HP / 0 SpD Fletchling: 246-289 (88.8 - 104.3%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO
252+ SpA Life Orb Victreebel Sludge Bomb vs. 184 HP / 0 SpD Fletchling: 368-434 (132.8 - 156.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
0 Atk Life Orb Victreebel Sucker Punch vs. 184 HP / 72 Def Fletchling: 133-156 (48 - 56.3%) -- 84.8% chance to 2HKO
252+ SpA Life Orb Victreebel Weather Ball (100 BP Fire) vs. 184 HP / 0 SpD Fletchling in Sun: 411-484 (148.3 - 174.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO

This one will be pretty hard to switch in... but then you will kick it easily, even if you get hit by a Sucker Punch... Sadly, this it's exactly the same case for Dodrio...

Sneasel
252+ Atk Fletchling Acrobatics (110 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Sneasel: 177-208 (70.5 - 82.8%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Life Orb Sneasel Ice Shard vs. 184 HP / 72 Def Fletchling: 234-276 (84.4 - 99.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

This one is pretty likable since Flecth can Withstand the Priority Ice Shard and can even get the KO with SR help and some luck... And Sadly:
252 Atk Choice Band Dodrio Quick Attack vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Sneasel: 141-166 (56.1 - 66.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

Which means that you are going to get kicked by Sneasel one vs one if this one does have Ice Punch (and i have been seen it really frequently)
252 Atk Life Orb Sneasel Ice Punch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Dodrio: 346-408 (132 - 155.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO

And another one that i like, even if isn't fast:
Musharna
+2 252+ Atk Fletchling Acrobatics (110 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Musharna: 175-207 (40.1 - 47.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
Isn't that bad considering Musharna is the bulkiest pokè in the Tier... which means that it can pressure Musharna into Moonlight to recover the lost HP and then go for a PP depletion that will worn it down... Of course... that's as long as you get your Fletch to +2, which isn't that hard considering its ability to scare Grass, Bug and Fighting pokès.

Using That evidence, i think that we can confirm that Fletchling is viable in PU... but i would love to hear more info from you guys to see another scenarios in which Fletch could be useful and not outclassed by other pokès like Dodrio or Chatot.

Cya
I was messing around the other day and made a team out of all the snakes in PU since there's a lot of them. I needed a defensive wall, so I tried out Eviolite Onix, and it's fairly unique. It has access to Stealth Rock and Taunt and enough speed to outpace most of the hazard setters in the tier. Sturdy means it guarantees a Taunt and rocks. Unfortunately, it has zero offensive presence, but tons of physical bulk. Its a fun mon to play around with.
What is this, Little Cup?
 

WhiteDMist

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UPDATE:

OK, so most (if not all) the PU Council members have agreed that Musharna deserves to be suspected. We've played with Musharna enough to know that it is rather centralizing. So it's time for our first suspect test! It will last for 2 weeks, so we will have ample time to scrutinize Musharna. These are a couple of general questions that you should think about:

1. Is Musharna overcentralizing? Are you forced to dedicate at least 2 team slots to handle it?
2. What checks and counters does Musharna have? Are there ways for all styles of teams to handle it? Do they limit teambuilding too much just for Musharna?

We will be adding a few people to the Council, so remember to make insightful posts (especially about Musharna), be active in #pu and the PU Room, and play with Musharna often.
 
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Ares

Fool me...can't get fooled again
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Ban it, get it out of here

Thank you for actually going forward with a suspect test. I literally have to either completely outplay the opponent or get lucky with hax as I don't run any of the couple of good stops to Mushy as I like a bit of variety. I posted my thoughts a bit above on why I thought it deserved to be suspected but I will be answering WhiteDMists questions in a later post. On my phone atm and hard to type / look up info.
 
Dude, 2 weeks for this?, i cannot wait that much. Ban it.

Is hard to kill with most teams, you cannot use toxic because Synchro (useless you stell-type or Poison-Type, but most stell-type are bad and you dont want to use a Poison-type against she), you dont use Knock Off because she can just sponge the attack, you cannot use Scyther without the fear of being paralyzed (you need SR and a layer of Spikes to get a chance to OHKO it with CB Bug Bite). If you can keep two layers of TS is more easy to handle, but Musha is at the same time a good counter of garbo and a roselia check. She can also gain some CM boost in front of most things and choose between sweep or just use BP to end the battle quick.
 
There's a few things that make Musharna overpowered in the current PU meta
1) There are very few things that can 1/2HKO it. The things that can OHKO it (e.g Zweilous) have no other job on the team besides being able to quickly take out Musharna.
2) Musharna has a variety of sets it can run. Does it have Dazzling Gleam? Signal Beam? Heal Bell? Baton Pass? Guess wrong and it could cost you your check/potential counter.
3) Its ability. Want to try to whittle down Musharna with Toxic? Too bad, unless you're a Poison or Steel type you're also getting Toxic poisoned. Oh and by the way, Musharna's just going to heal bell next turn and get rid of it.
4) You're not a dark type? Too bad, Musharna is just going to sit its fat ass down and soak up hits while setting up Calm Minds and recovering with Moonlight.
5) Oh, you are a dark type? You better have a secondary typing that resists bug or fairy otherwise you're getting hit with boosted, super effective Dazzling Gleams/Signal Beams (unless your Zweilous which outspeeds and OHKOs)

TL;DR: Ban
 
Since I was the one who made the post to formally suggest suspecting Musharna, it's pretty obvious what my stance is, but I might as well say a bit more. One of the most ridiculous things about Musharna is the fact that out of the already extremely limited options available to deal with Musharna, pretty much all of them are completely useless against one of its main sets. For example, Sneasel is probably the most solid non-niche option to beat it, but it can't OHKO it and has the potential to be crippled just by switching in, as Thunder Wave effectively makes it useless. Toxic Bastiodon is a decent option against most sets, but against sets with Heal Bell there's nothing it can do to scratch Musharna. One of the questions WhiteDMist asked was whether or not Musharna was overcentralizing, but honestly it's hard for something to be overcentralizing around its counters when it doesn't really have any to begin with. Basically, Musharna is extremely versatile, doesn't ever die even to super effective stab moves from some of the best offensive mons in the tier, flat out walls 70% or more of the meta, and on top of that can sweep incredibly easily. I really can't see Musharna as being healthy for the PU tier under any circumstances. Oh, and you can see my post on the previous page for more arguments :o
 
2 weeks? I feel like it doesn't need that much time. I feel that it needs to be banned ASAP, as I feel like arguing to keep it is ridiculous and futile. Even trying to think of a single reason of why it shouldn't be banned rather than should is difficult.

1. Is Musharna overcentralizing? Are you forced to dedicate at least 2 team slots to handle it?

Yes. Literally nothing likes switching in on this thing, unless it's a dark type. But even then, it can take Dark-type STAB moves (looking at Sneasel) easily. Why is it that another fellow S-tier mon with type advantage is hardly able to do anything to it? You can make the case that Musharna can't touch Dark-types at least...but that's where you are wrong. Musharna has access to both Signal Beam and Dazzling Gleam, giving it all the coverage it really needs. Even if you don't run a CM Musharna, you can use it to cripple mons (Thunder Wave), reducing sweeper capability since obviously your opponent is going to need to send in a heavy hitter. I think it's also quite Ridiculous how it takes a Choice Band Bug Bite from Scyther. Why is there a mon that's difficult to even kill with extremely powerful and super-effective moves/mons? It even has access to Synchronize, which causes people to think twice about using a status move, especially since you have access to Heal Bell. I really don't understand why there is a pokemon that could to all of these things in a tier: sweep, pass (Baton Pass CM, slow speed means the receiver comes in unscathed), support (Heal Bell, Twave), wall (Moonlight, CM as well), and just run train over well over 80% of the tier.
I looked up fat in the dictionary and it had a picture of Musharna with the description "pls ban".

2. What checks and counters does Musharna have? Are there ways for all styles of teams to handle it? Do they limit teambuilding too much just for Musharna?

There are some pokemon that can check/counter Musharna. The real problem lies in the fact that in order to deal with Musharna, you almost have to bring one or two of these pokemon. That shouldn't ever be the case in any tier, meaning Musharna just promotes a very unhealthy metagame. Specially defensive Bastiodon is in my opinion the only hard counter to Musharna, as it can get off a Toxic without being penalized due to it's Steel-typing and just Roar/stall with it's bulk and typing. There are a few "checks" to Musharna, the big problem is none of these checks can just switch in onto Mush. Choice Band Scyther deals very, very heavy damage, but especially if SR are up, Scyther will be having a bad time, as it takes a lot of damage from a Psychic coming from a base 107 STAB Pokemon (I think it's threatening even looking at it's stats, 116/55/85/107/95/29). You can also use the popular stall-breaker Misdreavus, or Kricketune (Taunt+Knock Off+Bug Bite), but even then they take damage that they don't appreciate. I could even stretch the term "check" to the moon and say that Trick Scarf Haunter/Switcheroo AV Klutz Lopunny/Switcheroo Scarf Barbaracle (yes, scarf Barbaracle), or something similar. But even then, they could predict a Knock Off and switch in Musharna. Why? Because it can take it. Get this fat monster out of here.

So yes, I feel like we need to ban Musharna. The whole tier really does revolve around this Pokemon, and at times it feels less like a 6v6 but more like your mission to try and figure out how to eliminate the opposing Musharna. I again say yes, ban Musharna, as it's really a Pokemon that holds it's own weight along with the rest of the teams. There comes a point when building a PU team where you always stop and think "oh yeah I can use Musharna." It is a very convenient and mold-able pokemon in terms of role-filling and doing it's job and then some. Definitely an unhealthy metagame disease, as you always need to add something on your team to deal with it. Always.

TL;DR - Ban Musharna, more like a nightmare Pokemon rather than a dream Pokemon. Also sorry for the long post :]
 
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I've been running a team with Musharna, the calm mind baton pass set, too test how broken it is. It's not fair. Ban pls
 
You know when people say knock off defined gen 6 and made defensive psychic / ghost mons almost irrelevant? Not musharna friends,
musharna equals bulk. Support sets with twave/yawn/baton pass/heal bell/trick room (even gets healingwish xD) will have a hell of an easy time
doing their job. Since it does get reliable recovery it's arguably THE best mon for the job. Other sets including calm mind (+baton pass) are
just as reliable, the physical bulk makes it eat up full powered knock offs and can heal these off with ease, especially since the next knock off
will be alot weaker.

To make the tier healthier and more balanced I will vote in favor of the ban.
 

Ares

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Alright time to answer the questions WhiteDMist put forward.

1. Is Musharna overcentralizing? Are you forced to dedicate at least 2 team slots to handle it?

I would say yes it is overcentralizing. Reason why is that very few things can straight up OHKO / 2HKO Musharna, in order to not get swept by it you are forced to at least run something that can specifically 2HKO Musharna. I'm not sure on the second question, on one hand you have to run at least thing that can do the afore mentioned of being able to OHKO / 2HKO. And then it is also good to run a special wall / pivot that can switch into Musharna and status it like Bastiodon. However the second Pokemon is already placed upon most teams as thats just good team building, I dont usually place a Pokemon in that slot thinking specifically of Musharna, it just happens to work out that way. So to answer the second part of that question I'm on the fence about it.

2. What checks and counters does Musharna have? Are there ways for all styles of teams to handle it? Do they limit teambuilding too much just for Musharna?

Bastiodon: It can toxic Musharna and not get toxiced in return, it can also roar Musharna out if it starts to set up Calm Mind Boosts. However Bastiodon will have a hard time beating it if it has Heal Bell. I would consider Bastiodon a hard counter.

Toxic Spikes / Status: Toxic Spikes are a good way to limit Musharna from switching into attacks that might normally be a 3HKO but with the tspikes become a 2HKO, this requires you to run a more entry hazard based play style. Status is another way to cripple Musharna with residual damage, however with Musharna's ability Synchronize your Pokemon will also be crippled (unless they are immune to the status that they are giving). These are both checks to Musharna, with T-spikes being a better check than status.

Ursaring: Ursaring can 2HKO Musharna, but it is not the best Pokemon and requires team support. 252+ Atk Guts Ursaring Facade (140 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Musharna: 301-355 (69 - 81.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery. I would say this is between a counter and a hard check.

Bouffalant: Bouffalant is a decent check if its running sub SD. After an SD Bouffalant can 2HKO Musharna, decent check.

Knock Off: Knock Off is a really shaky check to Musharna as it can easily survive the first one and recover HP with Moonlight. SD Sneasel is good because it can 2HKO Musharna with Knock Off, however this requires an opportunity for Sneasel to setup and its not like they are going to be sending in Mushy to counter Sneasel. Really shaky check if even a check at all

Trick: this limits Musharna's capabilities and is actually a decent way to cripple it, however when someone is about to go for trick its pretty obvious and the Musharna can just switch out. I would say this is a decent check to Musharna

Shedinja lol, cept if mushy is running toxic, which it normally does not

There might be more Checks & Counters out there but these are the ones I could come up with off the top of my head.


Are there ways for all styles of teams to handle it?

I would have to say yes there are a few limited options for all styles to handle it. Stall has Bastiodon, Balance has to use some of the checks I mentioned, HO has to use stuff that can OHKO / 2HKO it. But for each style options are limited, and the real problem is that Musharna can just Baton Pass out on the switch into a Check / Counter to your answer and either wear it down or KO it.

Do they limit teambuilding to much just for Musharna?

I am going to have to say maybe just for the fact that there is so little to run to counter it anyways. I mean yeah it centralizes it a bit, but not enough for me to answer yes to this question. You can still beat Musharna if you outplay your opponent and keep offensive pressure / momentum up on it, but it requires your opponent to be worse than you and you to play perfect.

Tl;dr: Yes, Sort of, Its in the Hide bar, Yes, Maybe
 

Anty

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I feel the obligation to post here:

I dont think musharna is that over centralising, nothing in the pu tier is imo (doesnt make it less broken). It doesn't make any pokemon less viable by its presence. Im not talking about direct outclasses, more like how aegislash made mega medicham worse as an example.

Offensive teams can check it with pokemon such as scyther and sneasel and defensive teams have stuff like roar and toxic (still have to be careful of heal bell/last mon). This is a lot easier 'said than done' as offensive teams need a way to directly threaten it as they cannot defeat mush by taking advantage of how passive it is. It sucks for defensive teams having to stall it out too, which is not an easy job. I cannot disagree in saying that there aren't enough ways to stop it, but you still have to remember it isnt impossible to beat. People here act like it can set up and sweep without a problem but you also have to look past the 'sneasel is the only way to check it and that gets stopped by thunder wave' and start looking at different pokes that take advantage of mush; such as Swoobat or Klang. Im not going to properly explain swoobat, but if you play well you get boosts up and have the ability to sweep. Klang is a much better example, it can switch into literally anything and just start setting up shift gears. Rest talk makes thunder wave redundant and the mush user is forced to switch into something that isnt set up fodder. Typical musharna teams also tend to be passive, which is what klang likes to face. Klang is also a pretty good poke otherwise, can fit well into different playstyles, uses a lot of walls as set up fodder (eg clear smog garbage, roselia, licky) and is only properly countered by altaria. Also stuff like taunt nasty plot missy are fun
Im not going to write any huge paragraphs on ways to beat musharna, but people need to realise how it is stoppable. I know there have always been complaints about musharna, but it seems suspect tests just make pokemon more broken (as in peoples views)

Currently i do agree that mush needs to go, but the point of a suspect test not only to vote to ban, but to also show pro ban people how it isn't broken, and anti-ban people how it is broken. If a pokemon where flat-out 100%broken then there would not be a suspect, but a quick ban.
 
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