Metagame ORAS/XY PU (Serperior Banned)

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Please don't discuss the prelim rankings in this thread by the way. We're posting them as a general resource to help quality. We'll have a proper viability thread in due time
 
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Finally I got a few proper games of PU (instead of all the gimmicky shit like Scarf Kingler you see in every direction lol)
This one being the best so far:
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/pu-159819566
Few thing I learnt from these battles that I'd like to share with you guys:
- Pelipper can counter sneasel if it lacks an SD boost
- Gigalith is actually usable (it has a few perks over golem that are worth noticing, like no ice weakness and no 4x weaknesses)
- Serperior is THE Grass setup sweeper now that Lilli is gone
- Glalie is the best suicide lead in the tier atm. (spikes)
- SubPunch Poliwrath is b0ss
- Ban sneasel

The importable version of my shitty team
Poliwrath @ Leftovers
Ability: Water Absorb
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Atk / 8 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Focus Punch
- Substitute
- Waterfall
- Ice Punch

Sneasel @ Eviolite
Ability: Inner Focus
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Swords Dance
- Knock Off
- Low Kick
- Ice Shard

Raichu @ Choice Specs
Ability: Lightningrod
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Signal Beam
- Thunderbolt
- Focus Blast / HP Grass
- Volt Switch

Serperior @ Life Orb
Ability: Overgrow
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Substitute
- Calm Mind
- Giga Drain
- Hidden Power [Fire]

Pidgeot @ Leftovers
Ability: Tangled Feet
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Defog
- Brave Bird
- Return
- U-turn

Glalie @ Focus Sash
Ability: Inner Focus
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Spikes
- Taunt
- Earthquake
- Ice Shard
 
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I'm sorry but Glalie is not the best suicide lead in the tier. It has to deal with competition in Pokemon such as Kricketune, Garbodor, Leavanny and a few others, Glalie isn't better than a single one of those Pokemon when it comes to setting up their respectable hazard(s).
 
One Pokemon I've been having a bit of trouble beating recently is Musharna. Despite the fact that Sneasel is a thing and is absurdly broken, Musharna is still a very difficult mon to take down. This is thanks in large part because we lost Exeggutor and Pangoro, the fact that Sneasel will more than likely be banned at some point, and the fact that out of the few offensive mons that have super effective STAB on it are all either crippled by paralysis or OHKOed by Psychic, not to mention the fact that none of them can do more than 75% to it with a single attack (These are Sneasel, Haunter, and Mightyena; pretty much no other offensive darks and ghosts exist). So outside of the living legends Scraggy and Krokorok, what do you guys think can actually handle Musharna effectively?

Also linking the viability rankings again because the ladder was seriously awful (I saw way more Ninjask than I did Tauros, Musharna, Purugly, Kricketune, Garbodor, and Poliwrath combined looool (ninjask is still awful in this tier, so are regigigas, slaking, and shedinja; don't even bother e.e))

http://piratepad.net/ep/pad/view/ro.Wn9lfLPl24W/latest
 
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One Pokemon I've been having a bit of trouble beating recently is Musharna. Despite the fact that Sneasel is a thing and is absurdly broken, Musharna is still a very difficult mon to take down. This is thanks in large part because we lost Exeggutor and Pangoro, Sneasel will more than likely be banned at some point, and the fact that out of the few offensive mons that have super effective STAB on it are all either crippled by paralysis or OHKOed by Psychic, not to mention the fact that none of them can do more than 75% to it with a single attack (These are Sneasel, Haunter, and Mightyena; pretty much no other offensive darks and ghosts exist). So outside of the living legends Scraggy and Krokorok, what do you guys think can actually handle Musharna effectively?

Also linking the viability rankings again because the ladder was seriously awful (I saw way more Ninjask than I did Tauros, Musharna, Purugly, Kricketune, Garbodor, and Poliwrath combined looool (ninjask is still awful in this tier, so are regigigas, slaking, and shedinja; don't even bother e.e)

http://piratepad.net/ep/pad/view/ro.Wn9lfLPl24W/latest
Once Sneasel leaves, I fully believe Musharna is gonna skyrocket into the same level of brokenness many see Sneasel as. Once Sneasel goes, literally nothing in the tier can handle it and not be deadweight outside of doing so (except maybe bae Scraggy, haven't tested yet). I'm actually terrified for if we ever decide to ban Sneasel.
 

Amaluna

Somewhere between relatable and psychotic
is a Battle Simulator Staff Alumnus
PU is a tier that has been requested quite often too. I hope this becomes like a standard tier for on showdown.
This is a very interesting and suprising tier with many tricks up it's sleeve. Hopefully people notice how awesome lower tiers are c:
 

WhiteDMist

Path>Goal
is a Site Content Manager Alumnusis a Team Rater Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a CAP Contributor Alumnusis a Top Contributor Alumnus
Ok, so we've had a PU ladder for almost a day now, and already there's been plenty of battles going on. As many of you may have noticed, there were a few oversights with what was usable (ie: Gorebyss) but they should be sorted out by now. Here are a few of my thoughts on the official tier list, and the new PU ladder:

1. More stall: Stall teams are far more effective for a variety of reasons. Lickilicky and Gourgeist-XL are two excellent defensive Pokemon that will be near required members of most stall teams. Lickilicky is the most effective WishPasser in the tier right now, something that most defensive (and some balanced) teams adore. It also provides a consistent special wall that isn't as vulnerable to Knock Off as something like Munchlax. Gourgeist-XL is the last of the Gourgeist formes to fall to PU, but it has amazing physical bulk and the ability to wall threats such as: non-Ice Beam Carracosta, Barbaracle, Sawsbuck, non-Fire Blast Tauros, Lickilicky, Avalugg, Golem, Torterra, etc. It also acts as one of the best spinblockers in the tier, as Avalugg is crippled by Will-O-Wisp and Wartortle hates taking Seed Bombs even though it has Foresight. The loss of powerful wallbreakers and offensive juggernauts in Samurott, Exeggutor, Leafeon, Lilligant, and Pangoro also contribute the the rising effectiveness of stall.

2. Sneasel is still very threatening: I said right before the tier shifts that Sneasel was a Pokemon to watch out for. The new shifts brought us little that can check or counter Sneasel, and in fact brought us two Pokemon that are threatened by it (Haunter and Gourgeist-XL). While we lost quite a few Grass-types that Sneasel threatened, that hasn't really diminished Sneasel's threat. Life Orb is just a great all-out-attacker, and many people are quite surprised by Sneasel's usable special bulk with Eviolite and get crushed by Swords Dance boosted moves. I expect many people are already hoping to suspect it, but I want everyone to play with and against it a lot more before making a rash decision.

3. Gimmicky Ladder: Expect a Viability Rankings thread next week. I completely understand people's need to try out their favorite Pokemon, but let's not forget that we are still trying to have a competitve ladder. I'm not saying that you cannot use Pokemon like Slaking and Furret, but remember that there are still so many unexplored Pokemon that are actually good; let's save the gimmicks for when we have gained a better grasp on what shape the metagame is. Let's focus on quality and make PU a great (unofficial) tier!

Speaking of quality, let's keep the quality of discussion in this main thread high. One-line posts are not very helpful and do not promote discussion. Make observations about the metagame, ask insightful questions, answer questions; there is plenty to talk about that you do not need to limit yourself to a single sentence. This community has been very mature and insightful, and I hope everyone helps maintain that nature in this thread. And remember, you can always join us at #pu for general questions.

Here are some questions for everyone to think about as well, and feel free to answer them here if you are so inclined:

1. What effects will the rises and drops from the tier shifts have on the metagame? We've lost many good Pokemon and have gained other good Pokemon. What do you think the metagame will look like because of this?

2. What kind of playstyles will reign supreme? Stall, weather, hyper offense, Spikes Offense, balanced, Trick Room, Volt-Turn, etc.

3. Which Pokemon do you think will rise to prominence? We all have noticed Sneasel and Musharna as major threats. Other than these two, what other Pokemon looks potent right now?

:pimp:
 
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Was going to do this a while ago, but here are some of my thoughts on each of the rises and drops:

Rises:

Leafeon:
Man, this thing was so good, and I will really miss using it ;_; While this is also true of the other 3 Grass-types that rose, it leaving made Poliwrath and other Water-types even better than they were before. Luckily, we still have the worse yet still pretty good Sawsbuck to replace it with.

Samurott: Ah, the original S-rank, even before people discovered just how good Sneasel was. Its ability to wallbreak extremely well and outspeed and Taunt Kricketune made it a staple on many of my teams. As for its impact on the tier, despite being S-rank, it leaving honestly won't change /that/ much about the meta, mainly because there are still so many other excelllent Water-types in PU. Frogadier especially will be a lot better now that it's not overshadowed by Samurott.

Exeggutor: This thing was basically impossible to switch into; the specs set did ridiculous things like being able to 2HKO +1 Musharna and basically ruin any switch-in with its absurd power. Like the other Grasses, the fact that it's leaving will mean that there is one less mon standing in the way of the Water-types that dominate this tier (Most of them beat it 1 on 1 anyway, but w/e) Not much else to say about it other than that it was really fun to use on sun.

Lilligant: Another Grass-type, blah blah blah. It was a really great sweeper an also had a really good yet underrated Scarf set with Healing Wish. Other than Water-types, its absence is welcome for Butterfree, as it is no longer horribly outclassed in its role by Lilligant. (though it's still mediocre at best tbh)

Pangoro: No one really used this thing other than me, but it was a monster. With Choice Band it 2HKOed literally the entire tier, was one of the better Musharna switch-ins, fit really well on Sticky Web, and had Parting Shot which is always cool. It was pretty much the only good non-Poliwrath Fighting-type too, as well as the only good non-Sneasel Dark-type (i've used mightyena but it's been kinda meh tbh), which makes its loss even more saddening. RIP Panda ;_;

Torkoal: RIP our only decent spinner and a Sneasel check, though Defoggers such as Swanna and Pelipper were and still are much better anyway. Torkoal rising didn't really have a big impact on the tier, but it was still a decent Pokemon.

Cacturne: lol no one even used this, it took like 6 hours for anyone to even notice that it rose rofl


Drops:

Haunter:
Only really needs Shadow Ball for a STAB move, letting it run a ton of useful moves such as Will-O-Wisp, Substitute obviously, Taunt, Disable, and Pain Split. It is retardedly frail, but it has a really good typing, hits pretty hard, and has great utility which should make it a great and common mon for offensive teams.

Gourgeist-Super: Haven't used it yet, but it walls a ton of top threats such as Poliwrath, physical Carracosta, Barbaracle, non-Fire Blast Tauros, Bouffalant, etc while being really bulky and giving a ton of utility and fitting on a ton of teams. We already had the other Gourgeists, so it's not really that new, but no one really used them before and this is the best form anyway.

Lickilicky: In a tier with like one good Fighting-type, Licklicky will be a monster on stall. It's easily the best Wishpasser in the tier, is stupidly bulky, has Heal Bell which is amazing, and has the ability to run funny offensive sets. Lickilicky + Musharna seems like it will be an absurdly hard to break core, as nothing really breaks it except for Sneasel (lel)

Anyway, this meta seems pretty interesting, especially now that we have a ladder to test more easily on. Only time will tell if this meta is better or worse than the last, but RIP PU Stage 1, it was a blast.
 
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Answering White's questions.

1. What effects will the rises and drops from the tier shifts have on the metagame? We've lost many good Pokemon and have gained other good Pokemon. What do you think the metagame will look like because of this?

Rises:

Leafeon:
The first of the four Grass-types leaving this tier. In a way I like this since it makes Serperior even better as it has less competition, but Leafeon was one of my favourite Pokemon to use. It had a good Speed stat and could outspeed the entire unboosted tier when in sun due to Chlorophyll. After a SD boost it easily swept as it had Knock Off for Musharna and +2 Adamant Leaf Blade did a ton to a lot of things (it could run Adamant because of sun). Sun at the moment is pretty much only Victreebel + Sawsbuck, still enough to wreak havoc but not as difficult to defend against.

Samurott:
And we also say goodbye to what was previously the best Pokemon the tier, though it's weird, since right now I am completely convinced of the brokenness of Sneasel, yet I believe Samurott was a better Pokemon. Life Orb with Hydro Pump / Ice Beam / and either Megahorn or Taunt was enough to dent the whole tier and shield Samurott from Musharna. Swords Dance sets had priority and were great. Unfortunately, the best Pokemon in the tier is gone and we have Sneasel taking its place.

Exeggutor:
The second sun-abusing Grass-type on this list, Exeggutor was the truck of sun teams. Choice Specs boosted Giga Drain / Leaf Storm / Psychic is OHKOing / 2HKOing anything not named Metang or Zweilous. This thing going will be a boon for stall teams which typically had trouble with it, but now Metang has very little reason to be used unless Jynx drops (which would be so exciting).

Lilligant:
The third Grass-type and final Chlorophyll abuser, Lilligant leaving was a huge shame, as it was an amazing offensive Grass-type with Quiver Dance sets being able to setup while forcing things out like Samurott and Golem, and Choice Scarf sets revenge killing Barbaracle / Carracosta and having a clutch Healing Wish.

Pangoro:
MAN I REALLY WISHED I GOT TIME TO USE THIS. One of the only Fighting-types in the tier and one of the only Dark-types, Magnemite wrecked with me with this so I'm disappointed af that I didn't get to try it.

Torkoal:
Apparently it checks Sneasel but I didn't see it making much of a splash.

Cacturne:
I liked Cacturne. The best Spiker for sand teams with Sand Veil while also having a decent offensive set with SD + Sucker Punch. One of the only Dark-types too. I'm sad that it's gone.

Drops:

Haunter:

All of the drops are exciting but this one I like the most. It has a few good sets, like LO 4 Attacks, LO 3 Attacks + Destiny Bond, SubSplit, SubDisable, Choice Scarf, and I even think Choice Specs might be viable, though the plethora of good Normal-types may make it's time difficult. It's also surprisingly a great spinblocker since all of the spinners of the tier are really passive and can't kill it, like Wartortle.

Gourgeist-Super:
Another great looking spinblocker that walls most of the Normal-types in the tier as well as the other stuff mentioned by White and Magnemite in this thread. An exciting addition.

Lickilicky:
Amazing addition to stall as the bulky Normal-type that doesn't die with massive Wishes and a lot of fat bulk, Heal Bell is great of course, and I've been building a couple of stalls around Lickilicky + Musharna, so I think this could be a good mon in the tier.

2. What kind of playstyles will reign supreme? Stall, weather, hyper offense, Spikes Offense, balanced, Trick Room, Volt-Turn, etc.

What I love about this tier is that almost every playstyle is viable. Hazards offense has things like Golem, Glalie, and Garbodor, Sticky Web has Kricketune, Sun has Victreebel and Sawsbuck with the support of Golem and Volbeat, TR has Marowak and things like Ursaring, VoltTurn has Rotom-F and probably other stuff but I can't think right now, stall has Bastiodon, Roselia, Togetic, and Poliwrath, balance has CM Musharna and bulkymons like ZWEILOUS THE GOD.

3. Which Pokemon do you think will rise to prominence? We all have noticed Sneasel and Musharna as major threats. Other than these two, what other Pokemon looks potent right now?

Lets just say I'd watch out for Serperior ;)
 
What a shame that lilli is gone. :'(
one of my favourite pokes in PU, and it was not S only due to Sneasel. I will miss you ma dear waifu RIP :'(

as for the rises, i am most hyped for Haunter. Currently, the meta seems to be hugely stall infested and its a good stall breaker imo. I am gonna try sub-split, cuz it has got some chance against sneasel with sub. Shadow ball and dazz gleam have pretty good coverage too. So lets see. :)
 
Ok i think drops have been talked enough and i don't have much to say bar how disappointed am i after i have seen that Leafeon left the tier.

On stuff i have used a bit on the ladder

Musharna @ Leftovers
Ability: Synchronize
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SDef
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Calm Mind
- Heal Bell
- Psyshock / Psychic
- Moonlight

Ok this pokemon is simply amazing. After it gets 2-3 boosts it becomes very hard to stop for bulkier teams thanks to its awesome bulk on both sides and self healing capabilities meaning if you don't have something like Sneasel or Scyther you are kinda screwed. If your team has a cleric you can opt to run a coverage move like Dazzling Gleam, Psyshock or some Hidden Power but the set above is more standalone.


Musharna @ Leftovers
Ability: Synchronize
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SDef
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Baton Pass
- Thunder Wave / Toxic / Calm Mind
- Psyshock / Psychic
- Moonlight

This Musharna is more of a pivot for Balance and bulky offensive teams and is very useful to spread status around and to give free switches to your offensive Pokemon.
This set deals very well with physical attackers like Tauros who just get statused and Moonlight stalled and can switch into almost any non super effective move lol
 
Ok i think drops have been talked enough and i don't have much to say bar how disappointed am i after i have seen that Leafeon left the tier.

On stuff i have used a bit on the ladder

Musharna @ Leftovers
Ability: Synchronize
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SDef
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Calm Mind
- Heal Bell
- Psyshock / Psychic
- Moonlight

Ok this pokemon is simply amazing. After it gets 2-3 boosts it becomes very hard to stop for bulkier teams thanks to its awesome bulk on both sides and self healing capabilities meaning if you don't have something like Sneasel or Scyther you are kinda screwed. If your team has a cleric you can opt to run a coverage move like Dazzling Gleam, Psyshock or some Hidden Power but the set above is more standalone.


Musharna @ Leftovers
Ability: Synchronize
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SDef
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Baton Pass
- Thunder Wave / Toxic / Calm Mind
- Psyshock / Psychic
- Moonlight

This Musharna is more of a pivot for Balance and bulky offensive teams and is very useful to spread status around and to give free switches to your offensive Pokemon.
This set deals very well with physical attackers like Tauros who just get statused and Moonlight stalled and can switch into almost any non super effective move lol
Yeah Musharna is pretty a god in this tier, that thing can't die. But Sneasel owns it.
 
That Ice typing and wet-toilet-paper Special Defense, though.
This isn't OU, there aren's so many fking Steel and Fire type... if u want to get raped by a Sneasel it's your fault.

There are some pokes that are too bulk in this tier, Articuno(ik shitty typing, but if u haven't a Rock type that thing can't die) and some others.
 
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I'm not sure if that made sense, nor how you are actually trying to justify a shit Pokemon.
What can Avalugg do that something else in the tier can't? I swear to god if you say tank hits. It's SDef is so poor and it's typing is so shit.
 
Avalugg is a fine Pokemon. I don't really understand all the hate. Yes, some physical attackers can still break it, but it walls almost every physical attacker in the tier. It also has reliable recovery, Rapid Spin, and Crunch to hit spinblockers if you're using it as a dedicated spinner. But to be honest, Rapid Spin is mostly just a perk when using it. You don't wall things with its typing like you do with many defensive Pokemon in this game. You do it with sheer bulk alone.

252 Atk Life Orb Sneasel Low Kick (120 BP) vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Avalugg: 127-151 (32.3 - 38.4%) -- 1.6% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Sneasel Low Kick (120 BP) vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Avalugg: 98-116 (24.9 - 29.5%) -- guaranteed 5HKO after Leftovers recovery

Seems like Eviolite is more popular, but either way, you need SD and Low Kick to break this thing. And if Sneasel is running Life Orb:

8 Atk Avalugg Avalanche vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Sneasel: 119-141 (47.4 - 56.1%) -- 81.6% chance to 2HKO

Of course, its physical bulk is already tremendous, so you can even run a mixed defensive spread. It doesn't really let you wall special attackers, but it does allow you to take some hits from mixed attackers and weaker special attackers. 248 HP / 8 Def+ / 252 SpD is probably a fine spread on this guy. People are dismissing it on its typing alone, but it walls a lot of shit:

252+ Atk Choice Band Stoutland Superpower vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Avalugg: 178-210 (45.2 - 53.4%) -- 0.4% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Thick Club Marowak Bonemerang (2 hits) vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Avalugg: 120-144 (30.5 - 36.6%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Choice Band Bouffalant Head Charge vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Avalugg: 133-157 (33.8 - 39.9%) -- 29.2% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Life Orb Carracosta Stone Edge vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Avalugg: 174-205 (44.2 - 52.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Poliwrath Focus Punch vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Avalugg: 200-236 (50.8 - 60%) -- 84.4% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
(doesn't wall the last two or even beat them, but it gives you an idea of its bulk)
 
double posting now that I've had a chance to play more

I'm not sure why everyone hates dealing with Sneasel so much. Of the three games I've lost so far, Sneasel was only a problem in one of them, and the only reason why I had problems with it in that game is because the opponent put too much pressure on my Poliwrath. I realize that it sounds stupid for me to say Sneasel isn't an issue while I've been using Poliwrath, but:

1. I'd be using Poliwrath even if Sneasel was banned. It has so many things going for it in this metagame. Aside from Throh, it is the only relevant Fighting-type in the metagame, which makes it an auto-include on lots of teams. It is also by far the best answer to Carracosta and Barbaracle, both of which would likely be really nasty without Poliwrath around. And it is one of the only Rock resists in PU that doesn't get fucked up by Ground-type coverage. Poliwrath also has Circle Throw to phase, which is great for bulkier teams, especially alongside the fantastic Garbodor.

2. I also played a bit with SmashPass and had no problems with Sneasel there.

Sometimes you have to think outside of the box to handle Sneasel, but there's nothing wrong with that. I was using Wigglytuff on my SmashPass team, and it handled Sneasel just fine. One thing that people seem to be forgetting is that Sneasel can't run Swords Dance, Ice Punch, Ice Shard, and Low Kick (unless it forgoes Knock Off lol). A lot of the Sneasel I have seen have been using Swords Dance / Ice Shard / Knock Off / Low Kick, and that set is handled fine by physically defensive Togetic, Wigglytuff, Poliwrath, Pelipper, probably Prinplup (was thinking about trying this) and Marshtomp, Carbink, Monferno, Throh, etc. There are lots of good checks out there, but you have to be willing to play around with unconventional Pokemon to fit a good check onto every team unless you're willing to use Poliwrath every time you play PU.

Other things can lure Sneasel in just fine. Musharna can easily take one Knock Off and hit back with Signal Beam or Dazzling Gleam. Gogoat is really fat and can take a hit before striking back with Rock Slide or Horn Leech. You don't always hard wall this thing, but plenty of Pokemon can take a hit and kill it in return. Of course, you can't always switch these Pokemon in, but there are better counters out there anyways.

I don't think anything is outright ban-worthy, but Musharna is pretty close. I ran into some issues with Bastiodon while using Musharna, but aside from that, not many Pokemon can immediately pressure Musharna before setting up, and once it does, it's even harder to do anything against it. Thankfully, Toxic can put it on a timer if it isn't running Heal Bell, and even if it is, Metang and Bastiodon can easily stall it out of its 8 Heal Bell PP and spam Toxic against it. And if it doesn't have Heal Bell, Toxic handles it well enough because it usually doesn't offer enough immediate pressure to pose a huge threat before dying.

I just think this is a really balanced metagame. Some things work really well and force you to prepare for them while teambuilding, but it wasn't anything I ever felt I couldn't handle.

Also, I'm top 25 on the ladder now. B) Come at me boys.
 
I think a larger sample size of games will change your mind, Treecko. For one, while Poliwrath is a good Pokemon on its own, being forced to run it to not get demolished by Sneasel is kind of bad, especially when heaps of Poliwrath lures exist such as Shell Smash HP Grass Carracosta. Specifically offensive teams are often shoehorned into running defensive Poliwrath which isn't completely suboptimal, but it does give up momentum in many cases. Another thing is that mant of those supposed counters are either absurdly niche outside of "countering" Sneasel, can barely counter it anyway with hazards and some of their lack of recovery, and ones like Monferno hate losing Eviolite. Barely any Sneasel use SD as the standard 4 attacks sef covers a huge pool of Pokemon. Sneasel lures are a thing (I've used HP Fighting Musharna), but by tanking that Knock Off you get forced out by the next Pokemon and then the next Pokemon Musharna checks has a much easier time. I'm very sure I'm the most conservative member of the council and if it comes to Musharna, I'll likely vote DNB if only due the PP of Moonlight. I was even not sure about Sneasel yesterday, however I had a conversation with Magnemite where I basically realised myself that Sneasel was broken, and my vote will not change from Ban after my experiences playing PU.
 
PU stand sfor PerfectlyUsed, PoorlyUsed, PersonallyUsed, PainlesslyUsed, PainfullyUsed, PatrioticallyUsed, PiteoslyUsed, PatheticallyUsed???

We need a Poll for this. NOW.
It's literally been addressed a thousand times that PU doesn't stand for anything, but refers to how the mons in the tier stinks. Please stop redirecting actual tier discussion back to this trivial matter
 
I think a larger sample size of games will change your mind, Treecko. For one, while Poliwrath is a good Pokemon on its own, being forced to run it to not get demolished by Sneasel is kind of bad, especially when heaps of Poliwrath lures exist such as Shell Smash HP Grass Carracosta. Specifically offensive teams are often shoehorned into running defensive Poliwrath which isn't completely suboptimal, but it does give up momentum in many cases. Another thing is that mant of those supposed counters are either absurdly niche outside of "countering" Sneasel, can barely counter it anyway with hazards and some of their lack of recovery, and ones like Monferno hate losing Eviolite. Barely any Sneasel use SD as the standard 4 attacks sef covers a huge pool of Pokemon. Sneasel lures are a thing (I've used HP Fighting Musharna), but by tanking that Knock Off you get forced out by the next Pokemon and then the next Pokemon Musharna checks has a much easier time. I'm very sure I'm the most conservative member of the council and if it comes to Musharna, I'll likely vote DNB if only due the PP of Moonlight. I was even not sure about Sneasel yesterday, however I had a conversation with Magnemite where I basically realised myself that Sneasel was broken, and my vote will not change from Ban after my experiences playing PU.
No they aren't? I covered like nine different checks in my post, and then I even offered a couple of good lures. None of those counters are niche Pokemon except for maybe Monferno, but I'm not the one hyping it up in this thread. You just have to learn different ways to beat it outside of using Poliwrath on every team, and you don't even need to use physically defensive Poliwrath because offensive sets like SubPunch handle it just fine.

If I can come up with 9 checks within less than 20 games of PU, I'm sure you guys can come up with stuff as well.
 
Yeah ok lets break down your "9 different checks", assuming they switch in on Knock Off.
  • Togetic - Clean 2HKO on switch-in with SR up for even the most physically defensive Togetic (which it shouldn't run).
    • 252 Atk Life Orb Sneasel Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Togetic: 44-53 (14 - 16.9%)
    • 252 Atk Life Orb Sneasel Ice Punch vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Togetic: 205-244 (65.4 - 77.9%)
  • Wigglytuff - A better answer, but can be 2HKOed by Ice Punch depending on hazard levels.
    • 252 Atk Life Orb Sneasel Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 4 HP / 252+ Def Wigglytuff: 94-112 (22.2 - 26.5%)
    • 1252 Atk Life Orb Sneasel Ice Punch vs. 4 HP / 252+ Def Wigglytuff: 146-173 (34.5 - 40.9%)
  • Poliwrath - A perfect counter.
  • Pelipper - 2HKOes with Knock Off + Ice Punch after SR depending on rolls.
    • 252 Atk Life Orb Sneasel Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Pelipper: 121-142 (37.4 - 43.9%)
    • 252 Atk Life Orb Sneasel Ice Punch vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Pelipper: 94-110 (29.1 - 34%)
  • Prinplup - A better answer but with no recovery and the likelyhood of many hazards, it won't be reliable more than once barring Wish.
    • 252 Atk Life Orb Sneasel Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Prinplup: 101-121 (30.5 - 36.5%)
    • 252 Atk Life Orb Sneasel Knock Off vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Prinplup: 103-122 (31.1 - 36.8%)
  • Marshtomp - Similar deal to Prinplup.
    • 252 Atk Life Orb Sneasel Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Marshtomp: 99-118 (28.7 - 34.3%)
    • 252 Atk Life Orb Sneasel Ice Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Marshtomp: 117-138 (34 - 40.1%)
  • Monferno - A good answer with Mach Punch, Will-o-Wisp, and Slack Off. Too bad after it loses its Eviolite it's useless against anything else.
    • 252 Atk Life Orb Sneasel Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Monferno: 58-70 (17.4 - 21%)
    • 252 Atk Life Orb Sneasel Ice Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Monferno: 68-81 (20.4 - 24.3%)
  • Throh - The second best Sneasel check with RestTalk. Double Ice Punch with prior damage can be a bit of a bother but pretty solid otherwise.
    • 252 Atk Life Orb Sneasel Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 192 HP / 32 Def Throh: 92-109 (21.4 - 25.4%)
    • 252 Atk Life Orb Sneasel Ice Punch vs. 192 HP / 32 Def Throh: 142-169 (33.1 - 39.3%)
Now think about the viability of Monferno or Marshtomp outside of "countering" Sneasel. Sneasel's answers are often niche and unreliable, further cementing my opinion on its brokenness
 
This may be kinda gimmicky, but boy does it look fun to use!


RNGigigas (Regigigas) @ Leftovers/ Lum Berry / King's Rock
Ability: Slow Start
EVs: 252 HP/ 252 ATK / 4 DEF
Adamant Nature
-Thunder Wave
-Confuse Ray
-Return/ Headbutt
-Rock Slide / Zen Headbutt

Say hello to the Togekiss of PU. With almost impervious, 110 defenses all across the board Regi here can take quite a few hits and use that time to really cripple the enemy. Thunder Wave serves to bring the opposing mon's speed down to it's crude level, and not many mons have greater than base 100 speed, so it should outspeed most of the paralyzed PU metagame. Confuse Ray works in tandem with Thunder Wave, creating the dreaded parafusion combo, where they'd need luck on their side to actually get an attack in. With the parafusion combo, Regi actually has a chance of stalling out his ugly ability, and would become a complete monster without its ability. Return can be used for a nice powerful normal type STAB move, but headbutt can be used if you want to add on to the hax concotion that Regi will likely have going. Rock Slide and Zen Headbutt would be the last moves. They both have a chance to flinch your opponent's mon, and they both hit ghosts, the immunity of normal types. Rock is a better offense type than Psychic, but Zen headbutt has a slightly higher BP and hits fighting types, Regi's only weakness, and also hits poison types (which seem to common in PU) hard.
 
double posting now that I've had a chance to play more

I'm not sure why everyone hates dealing with Sneasel so much. Of the three games I've lost so far, Sneasel was only a problem in one of them, and the only reason why I had problems with it in that game is because the opponent put too much pressure on my Poliwrath. I realize that it sounds stupid for me to say Sneasel isn't an issue while I've been using Poliwrath, but:

1. I'd be using Poliwrath even if Sneasel was banned. It has so many things going for it in this metagame. Aside from Throh, it is the only relevant Fighting-type in the metagame, which makes it an auto-include on lots of teams. It is also by far the best answer to Carracosta and Barbaracle, both of which would likely be really nasty without Poliwrath around. And it is one of the only Rock resists in PU that doesn't get fucked up by Ground-type coverage. Poliwrath also has Circle Throw to phase, which is great for bulkier teams, especially alongside the fantastic Garbodor.

2. I also played a bit with SmashPass and had no problems with Sneasel there.

Sometimes you have to think outside of the box to handle Sneasel, but there's nothing wrong with that. I was using Wigglytuff on my SmashPass team, and it handled Sneasel just fine. One thing that people seem to be forgetting is that Sneasel can't run Swords Dance, Ice Punch, Ice Shard, and Low Kick (unless it forgoes Knock Off lol). A lot of the Sneasel I have seen have been using Swords Dance / Ice Shard / Knock Off / Low Kick, and that set is handled fine by physically defensive Togetic, Wigglytuff, Poliwrath, Pelipper, probably Prinplup (was thinking about trying this) and Marshtomp, Carbink, Monferno, Throh, etc. There are lots of good checks out there, but you have to be willing to play around with unconventional Pokemon to fit a good check onto every team unless you're willing to use Poliwrath every time you play PU.

Other things can lure Sneasel in just fine. Musharna can easily take one Knock Off and hit back with Signal Beam or Dazzling Gleam. Gogoat is really fat and can take a hit before striking back with Rock Slide or Horn Leech. You don't always hard wall this thing, but plenty of Pokemon can take a hit and kill it in return. Of course, you can't always switch these Pokemon in, but there are better counters out there anyways.

I don't think anything is outright ban-worthy, but Musharna is pretty close. I ran into some issues with Bastiodon while using Musharna, but aside from that, not many Pokemon can immediately pressure Musharna before setting up, and once it does, it's even harder to do anything against it. Thankfully, Toxic can put it on a timer if it isn't running Heal Bell, and even if it is, Metang and Bastiodon can easily stall it out of its 8 Heal Bell PP and spam Toxic against it. And if it doesn't have Heal Bell, Toxic handles it well enough because it usually doesn't offer enough immediate pressure to pose a huge threat before dying.

I just think this is a really balanced metagame. Some things work really well and force you to prepare for them while teambuilding, but it wasn't anything I ever felt I couldn't handle.

Also, I'm top 25 on the ladder now. B) Come at me boys.
Honestly, I think SD is really sub-optimal on Sneasel since it makes you give up a valuable coverage move or Ice Shard just for a setup move that will rarely even be of use because it can be really hard to set Sneasel up. I'd rather just 2HKO the entire tier aside from Poliwrath and a couple of other things without even needing to setup.

This leads into my main problem with Sneasel: outside of Poliwrath (which is great, I don't think anyone is denying that), Throh, and a few Pokemon that have almost no niche outside beating Sneasel, nothing can switch into and beat 4 attacks Life Orb Sneasel with Stealth Rock up without being outsped and 2HKOed, and since it's so fast, you can't really bring in something to revenge it without it taking heavy damage afterwards unless it's a random scarf mon. This leads to a pretty big restriction on teambuilding, as you if you don't run these mons you have to basically sac something every time it comes in, and it's not as hard as it seems to bring it in often when we have stuff like Baton Pass Musharna. Also, Knock Off is a pretty stupid move and it lets Sneasel wear down its checks a lot faster than it would be able to otherwise. TRC's post with the calcs is also completely correct, especially since any set without Ice Punch seems pretty bad honestly. While Sneasel does have a few answers, that doesn't really stop it from being broken to me.

There's also the fact that Poliwrath is complete bait for Musharna, which is probably the best Pokemon in PU other than Sneasel, and has other mons that can easily switch into it such as Gourgeist-Super. It's also relatively easy to lure as TRC said.


Also Regigigas is trash unless you get a ton of hax (what isn't at least decent if you get a ton of hax lol), in which case there are so many more consistent and much less gimmicky options in terms of Normal-types (we have stuff like Tauros ffs)
 
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