Right... so you bring up a weird set and then say nobody uses it... Why bring it up if nobody uses such a thing and you admit so?
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XY Suspect Testing Round 1 np: Michael Jackson - (extreme)Speed Demon (READ POST #1278)
- Thread starter Aldaron
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One thing I would like to point out about genesect is that fire is more prevalent in this generation due to the decreased impact of SR, notable fire users includes Entei, Rotom-H and of course the ever mighty Heatran, non-thunderblot variant of Genesect is also checked by Talonflame. In fact, while not participating the scene during most of BW, I am rather curious why Genesect was actually banned. The only thing that I am awared of is probably Extreme speed variant, which I am not seeing much by far.
No words about Lucario, powerful wallbreaker AND sweeper, difficult to revenge kill, and two perfectly viable and powerful set.
No words about Lucario, powerful wallbreaker AND sweeper, difficult to revenge kill, and two perfectly viable and powerful set.
Because everyone complains about how broken M-Luc is and yet no one does even try to do something about it. At least back in Gen 4 people
were running something like Bronzong do deal with Garchomp but as I said "the fact that no one does something like that speaks for itself".
That's not even a real check, much less counter, seeing as how you'd have to keep Golurk from taking ANY damage for the whole match until M-Luke comes in. Plus after a crunch you might still get flinch-hax'd, and then you've lost your 'check' for him.
This just us back to the point that I made. The fact that you have to resort to such terrible sets shows exactly how broken M-Luc is. If this is going to keep going in circles, I'm not going to discuss anymore.
You’re missing the point here; no one does "resort to such terrible sets" and now ask yourself why.
Because they're terrible.
defensive AV Azumarril is a obsurce and terrible set, you might as well be running Sap Sipper and Whirlpool/Perish Song on it with max defensive investment.
People do not want to and should not have to resort to sets like a huge power pokemon with allmost all of its EVs in defensive investment to counter [Mega Lucario], under what isn't worst case scenrio which I believe is Mega Luke at +2 before you switch.
Personally I'm on the fence about Mega Luke. While I generally am against banning things, this one is a bit tough. One on hand, it has excellent coverage and power, on the other, there are Pokemon that can counter it. The more you think about it though, it is the fact most of the counters are so bad that it simply overcentralizes the metagame around itself and countering it. "Competition for a mega slot" is also a horrible arguement so stop it. Personally, I'm leaning towards ban but I'm not 100% sure.
Deoxys-S, I feel like it has its own problems that prevent it from being broken. Hazard leads have obviously gotten worse. Offensive sets suffer from NOT LEARNING FIRE BLAST DAMN IT. If anything, I feel only its versatility is what could lead to it being broken, but that simply isn't enough right now. Without Nasty Plot you're not getting far offensively but good luck setting that up and sweeping with all the priority. Among other reasons, I'm thinking it simply is not broken.
Genesect is versatile and strong and everything, but 99 is not the best Speed tier etc -insert last gen arguement and prepares flame shield- not broken
brbgettingreqs
Deoxys-S, I feel like it has its own problems that prevent it from being broken. Hazard leads have obviously gotten worse. Offensive sets suffer from NOT LEARNING FIRE BLAST DAMN IT. If anything, I feel only its versatility is what could lead to it being broken, but that simply isn't enough right now. Without Nasty Plot you're not getting far offensively but good luck setting that up and sweeping with all the priority. Among other reasons, I'm thinking it simply is not broken.
Genesect is versatile and strong and everything, but 99 is not the best Speed tier etc -insert last gen arguement and prepares flame shield- not broken
brbgettingreqs
Exactly but if M-Luc were really the nemesis everyone claims it to be you would be forced to run something like this to deal with it.
The rules of this forum heavily discourage one-sentence posts. Please elaborate on your argument.
To address what you said: Having to use a bad pokemon for a single other pokemon that you may or may not have to fight, especially one that is barely a check, is not the purpose of the metagame. The metagame is meant to encourage variety in every tier, and having to use trash like Golurk or Defensive Azumarill to check MLuke is the exact opposite of ideal. It proves that MLuke is overcentralizing, just like MegaMom and it's checks which were needed in order to deal with this one threat. We would, as you said, BE FORCED to run something stupid to still be competitive. For that reason, MLuke whould be banned, because it unbalanced the metagame. In your earlier example you mentioned Gen IV garchomp. Do you remember what happened to Garchomp in Gen IV?
I don't think there's even any need to discuss if Mega-Luc should stay in OU. You need at least 3 pkmn in your team dedicated to checking/countering it to make sure you're covered from all variants. It'll still manage to wrestle through at times thanks to Adaptability.
Same for Genesect. That U-Turn spam is too fucking cheap and E-Speed just added to it's versatility, and gave it an additional element of bluff with everyone running shiny regardless of ESpeed or not. Coupled with it's Eleventy-One viable sets that thing strains teambuilding way to much.
Deo-S is right now on the hedge not because it's bad this gen, but there are too many new and broken shit running around. After a few bans I predict this thing and Thundy-I will go back to being uber tier nuisances. I mean have you ever faced a lead, predicted it to be hazards and got 3 of your pkmn blasted to oblivion because it happened to be running LO + 4 Attacks? And with the two better priority users (Gene/M-Luc) most probably leaving the tier this thing is set to become all the more unbearable. I'd rather not have a second suspect test way into late-2014 or something when the meta has finally sort of settled down around this thing. Seriously guys don't make this mistake again. Ban this shit save your own time.
Same for Genesect. That U-Turn spam is too fucking cheap and E-Speed just added to it's versatility, and gave it an additional element of bluff with everyone running shiny regardless of ESpeed or not. Coupled with it's Eleventy-One viable sets that thing strains teambuilding way to much.
Deo-S is right now on the hedge not because it's bad this gen, but there are too many new and broken shit running around. After a few bans I predict this thing and Thundy-I will go back to being uber tier nuisances. I mean have you ever faced a lead, predicted it to be hazards and got 3 of your pkmn blasted to oblivion because it happened to be running LO + 4 Attacks? And with the two better priority users (Gene/M-Luc) most probably leaving the tier this thing is set to become all the more unbearable. I'd rather not have a second suspect test way into late-2014 or something when the meta has finally sort of settled down around this thing. Seriously guys don't make this mistake again. Ban this shit save your own time.
You don’t, no one does. If you would have to rely on one of these things people would actually use them but they don’t.
It fits the definition of a counter…
Yah but that’s beside the point.
I can't really speak too much about Genesect or Deo-S, but from using Mega-Luc a decent bit this gen, its versatility and power make it a problem, either physical or special. Resisted hits thanks to Adaptability still do massive damage. The only real stop to Lucario is its own 4 move-slot syndrome. But that can't really be called a solution since you kinda have to hope that the set your opponent is running can't break through something on your team. Additionally, I've really only encountered offensive checks, nothing defensive which can comfortably stop it.
Assault Vest Azu and Golurk are terrible, niche things that have one sole purpose in OU: checking MLuke. That's not acceptable, that people should have to put dead weight on their teams to deal with MLuke. And it's already been shown how they are easily KO'ed anyway, so they aren't counters. People shouldn't have to rely on stupid, bad things to deal with a single threat, it's better for the metagame to just ban overpowered elements.
And you haven't made a counter argument, you're just repeating over and over how some small things can check MegaLuke, which just adds to the ban argument.
EDIT: Just went over the calcs again. Assault Vest Azumarill technically fits a "Counter" definition, but it has to avoid allprior damage and it has to rely on a terrible set that isn't really useful outside of dealing with Mega Lucario.
My $0.02:
Lucarionite: Lucario is decent without its mega stone, but with it, it turns into a monster. It's now fast enough to sweep, and is a lot more powerful, between the stat increases and Adaptability. There's pretty much nothing that can switch in on it without proper prediction. And even that's not easy, as it can go physical, special, or even mixed. It still has issues with frailty and 4MSS, but the former can be bypassed to an extent with E-speed (out-prioritizing other priority moves) and the latter can be covered by its teammates. It's not perfect, but it's strong enough to be banworthy.
Deoxys-S: Being faster than the entire unboosted metagame and having great versatility got Deoxys-S banned to Ubers in the past, but XY is a very different metagame. The simple fact that he's UU right now should be an indication of that. With Defog getting buffed and Excadrill being unbanned, Deo's niche as a hazard setter is compromised. Base 90 in both attacking stats is good, but not exceptional, and its subpar defenses pretty much prevent a bulky set (and is outclassed by Deoxys-D). Deo-S is good, but not good enough to be banned IMO.
Genesect: Now this is one I'm on the fence about. Like M-Luke and Deo-S, Genesect's greatest strength is its versatility. It can be a physical attacker, special attacker, or mixed one, and can spam U-turn with near impunity, bringing in something else at little or no cost. Download is a blessing if you get it right, but is a fickle beast, especially on a choiced set. Its typing gives it some decent switch in opportunities (with acceptable defenses for one or two neutral hits) at the cost of a 4x weakness to Fire. It's also a bit slow without a scarf or Shift Gear boost. If I absolutely had to vote right now, I would not ban Genesect, but as I mentioned before, it's a tough choice.
Edit: Also, wasn't the suspect ladder supposed to be up by now? As of ~11am est, it isn't.
Lucarionite: Lucario is decent without its mega stone, but with it, it turns into a monster. It's now fast enough to sweep, and is a lot more powerful, between the stat increases and Adaptability. There's pretty much nothing that can switch in on it without proper prediction. And even that's not easy, as it can go physical, special, or even mixed. It still has issues with frailty and 4MSS, but the former can be bypassed to an extent with E-speed (out-prioritizing other priority moves) and the latter can be covered by its teammates. It's not perfect, but it's strong enough to be banworthy.
Deoxys-S: Being faster than the entire unboosted metagame and having great versatility got Deoxys-S banned to Ubers in the past, but XY is a very different metagame. The simple fact that he's UU right now should be an indication of that. With Defog getting buffed and Excadrill being unbanned, Deo's niche as a hazard setter is compromised. Base 90 in both attacking stats is good, but not exceptional, and its subpar defenses pretty much prevent a bulky set (and is outclassed by Deoxys-D). Deo-S is good, but not good enough to be banned IMO.
Genesect: Now this is one I'm on the fence about. Like M-Luke and Deo-S, Genesect's greatest strength is its versatility. It can be a physical attacker, special attacker, or mixed one, and can spam U-turn with near impunity, bringing in something else at little or no cost. Download is a blessing if you get it right, but is a fickle beast, especially on a choiced set. Its typing gives it some decent switch in opportunities (with acceptable defenses for one or two neutral hits) at the cost of a 4x weakness to Fire. It's also a bit slow without a scarf or Shift Gear boost. If I absolutely had to vote right now, I would not ban Genesect, but as I mentioned before, it's a tough choice.
Edit: Also, wasn't the suspect ladder supposed to be up by now? As of ~11am est, it isn't.
Colonial I think what he meant to say is that if MLuke is such a scary thing in metagame, everyone will start running terrible, niche set/pokemon just to counter it. The fact that they don't means that people generally don't think MLuke is such a big deal.
I'd have to disagree with his line of thinking. AV Huge Power Azumarill might be able to check Mega Lucario (it's not even a counter as AV Azumarill is easy as hell to wear down with SR and MLuke can just switch out and come back later after hitting it on the switch), but aside from that it has very little use. I would rather run 2-3 check of MLuke (1 NP and 1 SD) than waste a slot on my team for a "useless" pokemon and I believe this is how most people try to deal with MLuke. 1 pokemon requiring 2-3 slots in enemy team to check is the definition of broken and it needs to be sent packing to uber fast.
As for Genesect, it should also be sent to uber. This thing is just too good for OU.
Has so many viable sets, hits hard, good typing, great movepool, great ability, good bulk, good speed.
You basically has to play heavy prediction game against it and one wrong move costs you a lot. The Genesect player has little risk involved in decision making and punish you heavily for wrong prediction.
No opinion on Deoxys-S.
I'd have to disagree with his line of thinking. AV Huge Power Azumarill might be able to check Mega Lucario (it's not even a counter as AV Azumarill is easy as hell to wear down with SR and MLuke can just switch out and come back later after hitting it on the switch), but aside from that it has very little use. I would rather run 2-3 check of MLuke (1 NP and 1 SD) than waste a slot on my team for a "useless" pokemon and I believe this is how most people try to deal with MLuke. 1 pokemon requiring 2-3 slots in enemy team to check is the definition of broken and it needs to be sent packing to uber fast.
As for Genesect, it should also be sent to uber. This thing is just too good for OU.
Has so many viable sets, hits hard, good typing, great movepool, great ability, good bulk, good speed.
You basically has to play heavy prediction game against it and one wrong move costs you a lot. The Genesect player has little risk involved in decision making and punish you heavily for wrong prediction.
No opinion on Deoxys-S.
I want to say something about why Genesect should not be banned. *activates flame shield*
Genesect itself isn't really any better than it was last gen. In fact, it's slightly (I mean very slightly) worse than it was because its entire special coverage movepool has been nerfed. A big part of the ban last gen was the fact that it could U-turn out of its counters (Heatran, Pink Blobs) into a trapper (Dugtrio). Since Dugtrio has lost both viability and use, this huge part of last gen's Genesects ban is not really relevant. With the special sets, you actually have a bit of 4MSS. Heatran walls the standard set. So HP Ground, right? That means dropping one of Flamethrower, Thunderbolt, or Ice Beam. Dropping Flamethrower gives trouble with certain Steels. No T-bolt means trouble with bulky Waters. No Ice Beam means trouble with Ground-types. Physical sets, while quite powerful because of Download, Shift Gear, and Extremespeed, have really weird coverage that is easily resisted. Don't get me wrong, Genesect is still very powerful and worthy of the S-rank it holds in the viability ranking thread, but I definitely don't think its worthy of a ban at this time. I don't know if there's some sort of bias against it because of last gen, but we can't be too hasty in banning it. The metagame has developed to handle it much better.
Genesect itself isn't really any better than it was last gen. In fact, it's slightly (I mean very slightly) worse than it was because its entire special coverage movepool has been nerfed. A big part of the ban last gen was the fact that it could U-turn out of its counters (Heatran, Pink Blobs) into a trapper (Dugtrio). Since Dugtrio has lost both viability and use, this huge part of last gen's Genesects ban is not really relevant. With the special sets, you actually have a bit of 4MSS. Heatran walls the standard set. So HP Ground, right? That means dropping one of Flamethrower, Thunderbolt, or Ice Beam. Dropping Flamethrower gives trouble with certain Steels. No T-bolt means trouble with bulky Waters. No Ice Beam means trouble with Ground-types. Physical sets, while quite powerful because of Download, Shift Gear, and Extremespeed, have really weird coverage that is easily resisted. Don't get me wrong, Genesect is still very powerful and worthy of the S-rank it holds in the viability ranking thread, but I definitely don't think its worthy of a ban at this time. I don't know if there's some sort of bias against it because of last gen, but we can't be too hasty in banning it. The metagame has developed to handle it much better.
Deoxys s is nowhere as good as it used to be last gen imo , mostly because of the demise of suicide leads that was brought with the introduction of the metagame sweeping windstorm called defog ,sorry if my ergument is only 2 lines and the premise less than half , but that sums up everything that i think is important.
Genesect: Defog has made it so much easier to remove rocks, and without that SR damage it's extremely hard to damage Genesect. It can run so many sets so it's hard to bring in something that can take the presumed hit, because it can just as easily use Shift Gear and start going to work. It received a buff to it's techno-blast, so it can used Douse Drive to damage potential fire switch ins (I wouldn't use this set though). All in all it's a huge threat to most of meta, and to be honest using Genesect is like an easy mode button it takes very slight prediction and gets amazing results.
M-Lucario: As much as I like the 'mon, it is simply unhealthy for the OU metagame. The stats, that ability in Adaptability, the coverage it gets makes it nearly unstoppable when it starts running properly. This is a ban, no doubt.
Genesect: Probably the Pokemon with the most unknown outcome. To me, Genesect is still banworthy. Sure, M-Lucario may do its job better (IN TERMS OF RAW POWER) and there are Pokemon out there that also now check it, but Genesect is still the most unpredictable Pokemon out there. Thanks to the M14 promo, it got three new moves: Blaze Kick, Extreme Speed, and Shift Gear; all of which just add to the unpredictability (even if it is Hasty-locked). I have a feeling when M-Luke goes (and assuming Gene doesn't get banned), Genesect will run rampant thanks to its unpredictability and its potency. I'd ban it now before that happens, but that is up for the rest of you all to decide.
Deoxys-S: Let's face it...this Pokemon has lost a lot of its luster this Generation. Its ability to set hazards has been marred, thanks to the Defog buff and various indirect nerfs. It is still strong, no doubt, but it just doesn't warrant a ban at the moment. I would not ban it.
Genesect: Probably the Pokemon with the most unknown outcome. To me, Genesect is still banworthy. Sure, M-Lucario may do its job better (IN TERMS OF RAW POWER) and there are Pokemon out there that also now check it, but Genesect is still the most unpredictable Pokemon out there. Thanks to the M14 promo, it got three new moves: Blaze Kick, Extreme Speed, and Shift Gear; all of which just add to the unpredictability (even if it is Hasty-locked). I have a feeling when M-Luke goes (and assuming Gene doesn't get banned), Genesect will run rampant thanks to its unpredictability and its potency. I'd ban it now before that happens, but that is up for the rest of you all to decide.
Deoxys-S: Let's face it...this Pokemon has lost a lot of its luster this Generation. Its ability to set hazards has been marred, thanks to the Defog buff and various indirect nerfs. It is still strong, no doubt, but it just doesn't warrant a ban at the moment. I would not ban it.
Genesect actually switches more than enough to ensure entry hazard always a matter of concern, and it is not like SR is completely dead even with defog.
Also, while it gets a whole bunch of moves of different types, its coverage is actually very shaky, most notably walled by fire types in a complete manner, Techno Blast is not that much a concern when it is generally better off to pick up a choice item or life orb(sweeping set). And I have actually saw someone accused for the lack of power when they decides to run Shift Gear set. Download is a great ability but not a very reliable one.
IMO, the only thing by far that may potentially brings it uber would be extreme speed due to the priority meta, yet it is not even that good as a user when we are having TF/Conk/Azumarill/Dragonite, which, while trading off quite some element of surprise, are way more solid priority abusers. And btw, quick set up sweeping are far less prevalent now with the pivot heavy meta and those mighty priority revenge killers(bear in mind priority favors revenge killing more than sweeping). And the element of surprise mentioned above kinda fall off in the late game.
And, lastly, one thing I think not many people have talked about is the effect of Assault Vest, which neutralizes download at worst. The special moves of Genesect are also nerfed across the board, though I am not exactly sure how much KOs it misses out because of it.
Hello opponent-kun. It seems your current Pokemon is weak to either of Ice, Fire, Electric, or even Steel or Grass. And it seems Download has given me a free boost to my already good special attack. You'd better switch out, or else I'll hit you for SE damage.
What's that? You switched to your counter for me? lol never mind, I used U-Turn instead allowing me to switch to a counter for your counter.
<3
What's that? You switched to your counter for me? lol never mind, I used U-Turn instead allowing me to switch to a counter for your counter.
<3
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