There's been next to no discussion about Empoleon. At least put out some reasoning regarding Empoleon at B+ :(
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XY UU Viability Ranking Thread
- Thread starter Limitless
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Perhaps it's due to the lack of discussion that Empoleon is staying at B+; nobody has provided solid arguments for it to change position, hence why it'd stay.
nice spelling you retarted filipino faggit
Froslass should stay B+ at the minimum, however i could see it at A-. It's pretty much one of the, if not the best Spiker in the tier due to its high Speed and its good support movepool, however due to the new drops having somewhat of an easy time checking it (unless its using icy wind or some shit), making it hard to function, as well as the riising popularity of Mega Absol. not to mention that fast taunt is also a thing (albeit this is slightly remedied by icy wind, again).
Froslass should stay B+ at the minimum, however i could see it at A-. It's pretty much one of the, if not the best Spiker in the tier due to its high Speed and its good support movepool, however due to the new drops having somewhat of an easy time checking it (unless its using icy wind or some shit), making it hard to function, as well as the riising popularity of Mega Absol. not to mention that fast taunt is also a thing (albeit this is slightly remedied by icy wind, again).
Discussion was open for ample time. If you want your opinion heard, then speak up.
Someone edited title... Ernesto edit: Someone edited the title, yea. Because you'd written it Gastradon so I put a capital O .–. Hell, you even spelled it like that on your previous comment, lol.
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Gastrodon should drop to B- rank. As a bulky water, it faces quite a bit of competition with other bulky waters as they generally have [physical] bulk that greatly outmatches that of Gastrodon (I don't think Gastrodon can even avoid the 2hko from Adamant Luke's LO CC) and Gastrodon is not much of a late game monster compared to the likes of Suicune and Slowbro. However, its combined ability to consistently beat many of the huge threats like Mega Aero and the Fire Types sans a grass move 1 on 1 due to its recovery option while breaking Slowbro/Alomomola and completely cock-blocking CroCune is definitely enough to differentiate it enough from these other bulky waters and to warrant a higher ranking than Vivillon's, one of the 'mons that has truly struggled in this current metagame unlike Gastrodon.
nah kyuzetb clarified it for me.
Froslass should go to A-. I have like 0 minutes so this will be really short, but Icy wind froslass is just incredibly good and if you play right it's essentially guaranteed hazards and a free kill. it also 100% walls blissey with taunt for what it's worth so more free hazards *shrug*.
Frosslass is such a great mon.
kokoloko's Empire Team is just an example of how threatening a team with frosslass can be. even with the plethora of rapid spinners and defog users in the tier, frosslass pressures them all relatively well so they can't get rid of hazards while it is out on the field. Ghost typing with its 110 base speed is incredible. Fighting mons have to be scarfed to outspeed and even if it is outsped it has thunderwave / icy wind to even the field and support teammates. just has a lot of things going for it.
if only it got recover instead of pain split. :[[
kokoloko's Empire Team is just an example of how threatening a team with frosslass can be. even with the plethora of rapid spinners and defog users in the tier, frosslass pressures them all relatively well so they can't get rid of hazards while it is out on the field. Ghost typing with its 110 base speed is incredible. Fighting mons have to be scarfed to outspeed and even if it is outsped it has thunderwave / icy wind to even the field and support teammates. just has a lot of things going for it.
if only it got recover instead of pain split. :[[
I know we're talking about Froslass and Gastro, but I'd like to point out that now that we know Haxorus is staying, we should probably make that our next point of discussion after we finish these two. My vote goes for Hax going to A+, but we'll talk about it when we get there.
In the meantime though, Froslass should totally move up. Her speed tier is excellent even in this tier, and combined with Destiny Bond, she makes your opponent's Infernape and Mienshao really scared about going for that kill. She also acts as both a Defog discourager and Spinblocker in one, as most Defoggers hate getting hit with Ice Beam, and faster ones like Crobat are handled soundly with Icy Wind + Taunt. Her spikestacking efficiency is almost Deoxys level, though obviously not THAT high. I wouldn't mind her going even higher than A-, as I could easily see her in A. A+ may be pushing it, and she's definitely not S, but she is solid all around.
I have no experience with Gastro, so I won't comment on it. It does seem to have trouble standing out though.
In the meantime though, Froslass should totally move up. Her speed tier is excellent even in this tier, and combined with Destiny Bond, she makes your opponent's Infernape and Mienshao really scared about going for that kill. She also acts as both a Defog discourager and Spinblocker in one, as most Defoggers hate getting hit with Ice Beam, and faster ones like Crobat are handled soundly with Icy Wind + Taunt. Her spikestacking efficiency is almost Deoxys level, though obviously not THAT high. I wouldn't mind her going even higher than A-, as I could easily see her in A. A+ may be pushing it, and she's definitely not S, but she is solid all around.
I have no experience with Gastro, so I won't comment on it. It does seem to have trouble standing out though.
Alright, Haxorus is staying! To think it's only the third of all retested Pokémon to return to UU... Anyway.
Haxorus -> S | I'll be straight-up here; Haxorus was a dominating force of UU Beta and for me, it's performed just as well in this new environment. Haxorus possesses an absolutely massive 147 Attack stat, enough to shred the whole tier a new asshole once it sets up. Speaking of setting up, Haxorus can go the sweeper or the wallbreaker route depending on which boosting move it decides to use: Dragon Dance turns Haxorus into a formidable sweeper that combines extreme power with high Speed. If you have no Scarfer (or if you've lost it), you're pretty much down for the count. Swords Dance, on the other hand, makes Haxorus unstoppably powerful, amounting to an Attack stat of 786 with a Jolly nature and 864 with Adamant. The best thing is that Haxorus can even run a Double Dance set that allows the player to freely adapt their Haxorus to the opponent's team: against faster, offensive teams, Dragon Dance is more favorable, while against the slower, more defensive teams, the axe dragon prefers to use Swords Dance. If the opportunity arises, Haxorus can even use both boosting moves and turn the whole UU tier into nothing but a pile of rubble.
Now, what else makes Haxorus worthy of being S-Rank? Firstly, its ability to break through Pink Cores is virtually unmatched in the whole tier, being able to smash through Slowbro and Mew with Dragon Claw/Dual Chop and shredding Aromatisse with Poison Jab or even a boosted Earthquake. All it needs to do is set up and these cores are toast. Secondly, what makes Haxorus even more dangerous than it already is is its partnership with Hydreigon as a Dual Dragon core. I've brought this up before, but these two Unovan Dragon-types are partners in crime: either Haxorus wallbreaks bulky threats in order for Hydreigon to pull off a successful sweep or Hydreigon takes out the physically strong Pokémon to allow Haxorus to DD its way through the opposition. All one would need to complete this core is a Fairy resistor (such as Victini) and this core is pretty much impossible to stop if used well.
Of course, this beast isn't without its flaws. Haxorus's physical bulk is only alright and it's specially somewhat frail, having 76/90/70 defensive stats. Its 97 Speed can be a liability as well, since Scarf Hydreigon, the most popular Scarfer, outspeeds Haxorus by 1 base point. However, the plethora of good points Haxorus possesses more than make up for the few flaws it has, which all make it into one of the most lethal set-up sweepers in the UU tier. Haxorus for S-Rank.
Now, what else makes Haxorus worthy of being S-Rank? Firstly, its ability to break through Pink Cores is virtually unmatched in the whole tier, being able to smash through Slowbro and Mew with Dragon Claw/Dual Chop and shredding Aromatisse with Poison Jab or even a boosted Earthquake. All it needs to do is set up and these cores are toast. Secondly, what makes Haxorus even more dangerous than it already is is its partnership with Hydreigon as a Dual Dragon core. I've brought this up before, but these two Unovan Dragon-types are partners in crime: either Haxorus wallbreaks bulky threats in order for Hydreigon to pull off a successful sweep or Hydreigon takes out the physically strong Pokémon to allow Haxorus to DD its way through the opposition. All one would need to complete this core is a Fairy resistor (such as Victini) and this core is pretty much impossible to stop if used well.
Of course, this beast isn't without its flaws. Haxorus's physical bulk is only alright and it's specially somewhat frail, having 76/90/70 defensive stats. Its 97 Speed can be a liability as well, since Scarf Hydreigon, the most popular Scarfer, outspeeds Haxorus by 1 base point. However, the plethora of good points Haxorus possesses more than make up for the few flaws it has, which all make it into one of the most lethal set-up sweepers in the UU tier. Haxorus for S-Rank.
Froslass is definitely worthy of S rank. Not only is it the face of hyper offense, it is simply impossible to stop it from setting up multiple layers of hazards. It can use Focus Sash to guarantee to live any hit and setup Spikes and/or force the opponent out the next turn with Destiny Bond. It also forces gamebreaking 50/50 situations thanks to Taunt, because you never know if you're going to get up SR or not, and if you mispredict you're giving it a free turn to setup Spikes. She also blocks Rapid Spin by herself, making it the only hazard setter and spinblocker in one, and on top of that she can block Defog with Taunt. All these traits combined make Froslass a devastating threat in the UU metagame and therefore she should move up to S rank.
Lead Azelf would like a word with you.
And its not quite impossible to stop multiple layers of hazards either. It can't really stop mega-absol from blocking its spikes (Icy wind helps, but the point is no spikes until M-absol dies), nor can it stop aerodactyl (either mega or normal) or azelf from denying it through a faster taunt. Smart use of volt-turn will stop it cold at one layer of spikes too.
Additionally, this isn't gen V anymore. There are very much legitimate options that can spin or defog against even HO. Something WILL give away a spin/defog opportunity these days. You're running fire spam to complement spikes? Tentacruel/Starmie/M-Aerodactyl/M-Blastoise. Fighting sweepers? Mew/Crobat/Tentacruel. Haxorus? Forretress. Special Wallbreakers? Mew. Point is there are now many legitimate spinners and defog as opposed to the few cruddy spinners of gen V having no answer outside of toxic to most ghosts. If you want to keep spikes up, you have to run very high levels of support, such as in Kokoloko's empire build, to keep them up.
A- seems about right. Froslass is a major threat, but nowhere near that great.
I diagree with Froslass moving up to S. While most if not all HO teams carry Froslass, it is by no means the most game breaking pokemon. Hazzards removal is relatively easy in UU as spinblocking against Blastoise is hard if not impossible, and there are no good defog blockers like Bisharp in OU or Braviary in RU - you may use the latter but good luck sweeping with that base 80 speed. She also loses to faster leads like Absol, Azelf and Aerodactyl unless she runs an Icy Wind set. Volt turn gives her trouble, and she still loses to Cinccino the mother of anti sash leads. Overall I think it deserves A-
I think haxorus deserves an A+ Rank. Without a doubt, hax is the most terrifying setup sweeper in UU atm. However, each of his sets has its own slight disadvantage that keeps this dragon from S. The dragon dance set cannot guarantee to break many solid walls, leaving room for it to be crippled or easily revenged killed due to it's only decent bulk. Swords dance isn't fast enough to do any real damage. And the double dance set? Haxorus is almost guaranteed to die with two free turns. However, it's sheer power still lands it in A+
I haven't seen many gourgeist in UU, so I am not one to judge.
I haven't seen many gourgeist in UU, so I am not one to judge.
Haxorus for S. His stall breaking power is off the charts. SD plus 3 attacks destroys everything, I'm struggling to find an answer for how stall will work. Haxorus is also not as dead weight versus offensse as I've seen some people say. 97 speed, while not stellar, is enough to outspeed a lot of threats like Darmanitan, Nidoking, Roserade, Lucario, and Krookodile. Also, Haxorus doesn't always need to boost. 147 base attack is monstrous as is. People won't want to bring in their scarf Hydreigons and Mienshaos to check Hax since it plows right through them unboosted. You can wait until there is a wall with little it can do to hax and set up an SD or a DD, or just start chipping away at the opponents side. Also the 3 most viable sets, SD 3 attacks, DD 3 attacks, and Double Dance, all have different counters and checks, and scouting that is hard until Hax starts to boost. This unpredictability along with multitude of boosting options and immensely powerful base attack gives Haxorus S rank imho.
pokemonisfun
Banned deucer.
I believe the answer is Granbull which can run a nice defensive set because access to Heal Bell and of course Rest Talk. Still Play Rough won't do 100% while a boosted Poison Jab can 2HKO so that is certainly a menace.
Drops have been a mixed bag for Gourgeist. On one hand, Infernape gives it a hard time, with Flare Blitz 2HKOing Gourgeist under all circumstances, Fire Blast OHKOing and being immune to Will-o-Wisp. Goodra is also a problem since Sap Sipper makes it immune to Leech Seed and Fire Blast will nearly also 2HKO or OHKO. However things are not all bad for it, as it walls Blissey on Substitute sets and it makes a good check to Lucario, with physically defensive variants being 3HKOed by unboosted Crunch and surviving a +2 Crunch. Gourgeist also counters non-Crunch Haxorus and is able to burn it if it doesn't have a Lum Berry. The presence of Fire types in the metagame somewhat limit Gourgeist's viability, but sets with Substitute can still Leech Seed them, or even Rock Slide. Rock Slide is probably looked down upon since it forces Gourgeist not to run any STAB, but Leech Seed, Will-o-Wisp and Substitute are really more necessary than Shadow Sneak and Seed Bomb are most of the time, so Rock Slide is actually worth it. I used it first in this tier and have seen a couple players mention it in threads for NU or RU as well, so it's not unheard of. Here is an example of the set:
Gourgeist-Super @ Leftovers
Ability: Frisk
EVs: 252 HP / 44 Atk / 200 Def / 12 Spe
Impish Nature
- Substitute
- Will-O-Wisp
- Leech Seed
- Rock Slide
The set is major Taunt-bait and fails to cover Infernape and Mega Absol very well, but the rest of the tier will be crippled in some way, especially physical attackers. As a spinblocker, the best Donphan can do is Knock Off, which kinda stinks, but Gourgeist doesn't take much damage and can recovery some HP with Leech Seed. No ghost can beat Mega Blastoise except for Spiritomb and maybe Sableye, so he's kind of irrelevant. Gourgeist's ability to take on Starmie depends on the set, as Specially Defensive can spinblock fairly well, while Physically Defensive is easily 2HKOed by Ice Beam. Tentacruel is beaten for the most part, but Leech Seed is dangerous because of Liquid Ooze and Scald can burn Gourgiest. This post kinda dragged on a bit, but I'm just trying to say that Gourgeist-Super should stay B+ rank, as it still fills its defensive niche with 2 more Pokemon to hinder it and 3 more for it to abuse and distinguishes itself from other Ghosts (like Trevenant) with its high defense and combination of status moves. Being in the same rank as Trevenant seems fitting for it.
Gourgeist-Super @ Leftovers
Ability: Frisk
EVs: 252 HP / 44 Atk / 200 Def / 12 Spe
Impish Nature
- Substitute
- Will-O-Wisp
- Leech Seed
- Rock Slide
The set is major Taunt-bait and fails to cover Infernape and Mega Absol very well, but the rest of the tier will be crippled in some way, especially physical attackers. As a spinblocker, the best Donphan can do is Knock Off, which kinda stinks, but Gourgeist doesn't take much damage and can recovery some HP with Leech Seed. No ghost can beat Mega Blastoise except for Spiritomb and maybe Sableye, so he's kind of irrelevant. Gourgeist's ability to take on Starmie depends on the set, as Specially Defensive can spinblock fairly well, while Physically Defensive is easily 2HKOed by Ice Beam. Tentacruel is beaten for the most part, but Leech Seed is dangerous because of Liquid Ooze and Scald can burn Gourgiest. This post kinda dragged on a bit, but I'm just trying to say that Gourgeist-Super should stay B+ rank, as it still fills its defensive niche with 2 more Pokemon to hinder it and 3 more for it to abuse and distinguishes itself from other Ghosts (like Trevenant) with its high defense and combination of status moves. Being in the same rank as Trevenant seems fitting for it.
I have not seen enough of Gourgeist-XL to make a ruling on that. But I can say for certain:
Haxorus for S rank
I believe we have said enough about Haxorus here. Let the past discussions speak- 147 Attack was insane in OU, and its speed tier is much more welcome here in UU. Hydreigon does not even outclass Hax as a scarfer, as Hax trades that single speed point for an insane spike in power. Not to mention that its standard Dragon Dance set can even threaten Fairies, and as long as it packs the right coverage, can destroy Steel-types. When a Pokémon has so much raw power that can be boosted, and when it can get past its intended type-counters with such ease, it isdeceiving deserving (stupid autocorrect) of the best rank available.
I believe we have said enough about Haxorus here. Let the past discussions speak- 147 Attack was insane in OU, and its speed tier is much more welcome here in UU. Hydreigon does not even outclass Hax as a scarfer, as Hax trades that single speed point for an insane spike in power. Not to mention that its standard Dragon Dance set can even threaten Fairies, and as long as it packs the right coverage, can destroy Steel-types. When a Pokémon has so much raw power that can be boosted, and when it can get past its intended type-counters with such ease, it is
I think if we are opening discussion for Haxorus, we should also discuss the changes it's presence make to the metagame. For instance, I hardly believe Ditto is comfortably sits at C rank as it's a fantastic offensive check to boosting Haxorus and should be at the very least B- now if not higher.
Which boosting move haxorus uses doesnt really make it unpredictable. it's still has its simple coverage of dragon/ground/poison.
I honestly haven't found haxorus to be too big of a problem. it has amazing attack, good speed, but everything else about it is just average.
against stall teams the sd variant is problematic to go up against but you have to have a bad matchup [pokemon matchup not team] for it to boost up and it needs a lum berry for potential twaves/poison/will-o. its 3hko'd by a majority of the meta so it either can't switch in or it has a very difficult time doing so.
against offensive teams it doesnt have a chance to set up because it risks getting 2hko'd by anything running investment.
252 Atk Victini Zen Headbutt vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Haxorus: 120-142 (40.9 - 48.4%) -- 69.5% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
That's a base 100 attack neutral nature pokemon using a base 80 STAB move against a haxorus and it still has a high chance to 2hko.
yes there are going to be certain situations where you're locked into a move or need a specific mon for late game and are forced to switch out and then it can get a set up opportunity. But between all the scarf users in the tier and priority, it's easily revenged.
it's a solid mon for sure but I wouldnt consider it in the same class as something like infernape/luke.
A / A- imo
I honestly haven't found haxorus to be too big of a problem. it has amazing attack, good speed, but everything else about it is just average.
against stall teams the sd variant is problematic to go up against but you have to have a bad matchup [pokemon matchup not team] for it to boost up and it needs a lum berry for potential twaves/poison/will-o. its 3hko'd by a majority of the meta so it either can't switch in or it has a very difficult time doing so.
against offensive teams it doesnt have a chance to set up because it risks getting 2hko'd by anything running investment.
252 Atk Victini Zen Headbutt vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Haxorus: 120-142 (40.9 - 48.4%) -- 69.5% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
That's a base 100 attack neutral nature pokemon using a base 80 STAB move against a haxorus and it still has a high chance to 2hko.
yes there are going to be certain situations where you're locked into a move or need a specific mon for late game and are forced to switch out and then it can get a set up opportunity. But between all the scarf users in the tier and priority, it's easily revenged.
it's a solid mon for sure but I wouldnt consider it in the same class as something like infernape/luke.
A / A- imo
Just requoting my post for Haxorus, since I posted it a bit too early.
Alright, Haxorus is staying! To think it's only the third of all retested Pokémon to return to UU... Anyway.
Haxorus -> S | I'll be straight-up here; Haxorus was a dominating force of UU Beta and for me, it's performed just as well in this new environment. Haxorus possesses an absolutely massive 147 Attack stat, enough to shred the whole tier a new asshole once it sets up. Speaking of setting up, Haxorus can go the sweeper or the wallbreaker route depending on which boosting move it decides to use: Dragon Dance turns Haxorus into a formidable sweeper that combines extreme power with high Speed. If you have no Scarfer (or if you've lost it), you're pretty much down for the count. Swords Dance, on the other hand, makes Haxorus unstoppably powerful, amounting to an Attack stat of 786 with a Jolly nature and 864 with Adamant. The best thing is that Haxorus can even run a Double Dance set that allows the player to freely adapt their Haxorus to the opponent's team: against faster, offensive teams, Dragon Dance is more favorable, while against the slower, more defensive teams, the axe dragon prefers to use Swords Dance. If the opportunity arises, Haxorus can even use both boosting moves and turn the whole UU tier into nothing but a pile of rubble.
Now, what else makes Haxorus worthy of being S-Rank? Firstly, its ability to break through Pink Cores is virtually unmatched in the whole tier, being able to smash through Slowbro and Mew with Dragon Claw/Dual Chop and shredding Aromatisse with Poison Jab or even a boosted Earthquake. All it needs to do is set up and these cores are toast. Secondly, what makes Haxorus even more dangerous than it already is is its partnership with Hydreigon as a Dual Dragon core. I've brought this up before, but these two Unovan Dragon-types are partners in crime: either Haxorus wallbreaks bulky threats in order for Hydreigon to pull off a successful sweep or Hydreigon takes out the physically strong Pokémon to allow Haxorus to DD its way through the opposition. All one would need to complete this core is a Fairy resistor (such as Victini) and this core is pretty much impossible to stop if used well.
Of course, this beast isn't without its flaws. Haxorus's physical bulk is only alright and it's specially somewhat frail, having 76/90/70 defensive stats. Its 97 Speed can be a liability as well, since Scarf Hydreigon, the most popular Scarfer, outspeeds Haxorus by 1 base point. However, the plethora of good points Haxorus possesses more than make up for the few flaws it has, which all make it into one of the most lethal set-up sweepers in the UU tier. Haxorus for S-Rank.
Gourgeist is moving down to C- rank, while Haxorus is being added to A+ rank. Alakazam is moving down to A rank. Though Gourgeist's rank seems a bit harsh, it obviously wasn't as good as Bronzong and Ditto, which were already in C rank.
The next two Pokemon up for discussion are Jellicent and Granbull.
The next two Pokemon up for discussion are Jellicent and Granbull.
In my opinion Granbull should move down to B-. Its only real niche in UU is checking Haxorus (and even then banded Poison Jab 2HKO's after SR) and Heracross, but then again it's severely outclassed by Aromatisse who has reliable recovery in Wish. There is little reason to actually use Granbull over Aromatisse. It has more physical bulk factoring in Intimidate but lacks recovery to make use of it. It can cripple threats with Thunder Wave which is nice, but it doesn't weigh up against the support that Aromatisse provides with Wish. Both can be used as clerics so no comment there, but overall Aromatisse is far better and leaves Granbull relatively unviable in the tier.
I honestly have little to 0 experience using either of them but I have faced a few and have some comments on them. Jellicient in theory sounds really good at checking Infernape and Lucario, all the while countering Suicune thanks to Water Absorb + Taunt, but in general Slowbro outclasses it in checking Fighting/Fire spam due access to Regenerator and T.wave (all the while being available as a win con), but having Taunt + check Rain (not prominent but effective playstyle) + resist Heracross's STABs are huge for it. I have also used an offensive Specs/Scarf Water Spout set in a Rain team as it is easily the best Water Spout abuser in the tier thanks to its ability to switch in easily with 3 immunities but lol it was not very effective to say the least. I'd say keep it at B+ as it is still largely outclassed by Slowbro for the most part (regen op ;~;)
Granbull can check Haxorus easily thanks to Intimidate + Fairy typing, but as usual his lack of recovery is really bad for it. Luckily it pairs up with Blissey the best wish passer nicely, and while providing T.wave/phazing support and sporting Fairy + Ground coverage from a base 120 attack certainly differs it from Aromatisse as stuff like un-Mevo'd Aggron and Nidoqueen can't switch into it without worry. I'd say A- at least, but not higher than Aromatisse becauae it suffers the same issue as Aggron as a physical wall with good offensive pressence but no recovery.
Granbull can check Haxorus easily thanks to Intimidate + Fairy typing, but as usual his lack of recovery is really bad for it. Luckily it pairs up with Blissey the best wish passer nicely, and while providing T.wave/phazing support and sporting Fairy + Ground coverage from a base 120 attack certainly differs it from Aromatisse as stuff like un-Mevo'd Aggron and Nidoqueen can't switch into it without worry. I'd say A- at least, but not higher than Aromatisse becauae it suffers the same issue as Aggron as a physical wall with good offensive pressence but no recovery.
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