Pretty much all of B, C and D needs to be changed around/removed. So I wouldn't worry about nominating individual mons. We'll get to it, or maybe someone will clear it up: eventually.
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XY UU Viability Ranking Thread
- Thread starter Limitless
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sure raikou isnt nearly what it once was but is it really worse than goodra lol...
anyways, Rotom-H should be moved down to B+. While it can be a pretty good switch-in to Victini and serve as a good mon on bulky offense due to its overall solid bulk on both sides, it gets worn down too easily due to its SR weakness, and, unlike Arcanine, a somewhat similar switchin to Victini (and arguably a better physical wall due to its ability, reliable recovery letting it switch in more than once), has to rely on Pain Split for recovery, which is never good in most scenarios. As for offensive sets, with the prominence of Blissey, who, can although be crippled with Trick, can take on practically any attack and wear it down.
i'm not too sure on sableye, as it's a complete fuck you to suicide leads, and can cripple a large portion of the tier with its solid support movepool, letting it deal with threats such as Slowbro, Blissey, Mew, Mega Aerodactyl, and other mons common on balance. However, with the growing popularity of Aromatisse (and well florges still exists i guess), to the firespam coming from mons such as Victini, Infernape, Darmanitan, and Mega Houndoom to an extent (while its obscure now for some stupid reason it takes a massive dogshit all over Sableye), as well as the dominance of Mega Absol who serves as a good check to non Foul Play variants...it's hard to say. Either it stays where it is or it goes to B+.
anyways, Rotom-H should be moved down to B+. While it can be a pretty good switch-in to Victini and serve as a good mon on bulky offense due to its overall solid bulk on both sides, it gets worn down too easily due to its SR weakness, and, unlike Arcanine, a somewhat similar switchin to Victini (and arguably a better physical wall due to its ability, reliable recovery letting it switch in more than once), has to rely on Pain Split for recovery, which is never good in most scenarios. As for offensive sets, with the prominence of Blissey, who, can although be crippled with Trick, can take on practically any attack and wear it down.
i'm not too sure on sableye, as it's a complete fuck you to suicide leads, and can cripple a large portion of the tier with its solid support movepool, letting it deal with threats such as Slowbro, Blissey, Mew, Mega Aerodactyl, and other mons common on balance. However, with the growing popularity of Aromatisse (and well florges still exists i guess), to the firespam coming from mons such as Victini, Infernape, Darmanitan, and Mega Houndoom to an extent (while its obscure now for some stupid reason it takes a massive dogshit all over Sableye), as well as the dominance of Mega Absol who serves as a good check to non Foul Play variants...it's hard to say. Either it stays where it is or it goes to B+.
Good.
Sableye is staying at A- rank, while Rotom-H is moving down to B+ rank.
The next two Pokemon up for discussion are Snorlax and Sharpedo.
I think we need to move Sharpedo to B rank. The most recent tier shift really hurt it. First, we got some priority to play with now. Infernape and Lucario can mess it up pretty bad.
252+ Atk Life Orb Lucario Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Sharpedo: 225-265 (80 - 94.3%) -- 50% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Iron Fist Infernape Mach Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Sharpedo: 272-324 (96.7 - 115.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock (note the lack of LO)
Even Fletchinder can mess it up pretty bad
252+ Atk Fletchinder Acrobatics (110 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Sharpedo: 274-324 (97.5 - 115.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
Just my two cents
EDIT: I have like no experience with Snorlax
252+ Atk Life Orb Lucario Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Sharpedo: 225-265 (80 - 94.3%) -- 50% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Iron Fist Infernape Mach Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Sharpedo: 272-324 (96.7 - 115.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock (note the lack of LO)
Even Fletchinder can mess it up pretty bad
252+ Atk Fletchinder Acrobatics (110 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Sharpedo: 274-324 (97.5 - 115.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
Just my two cents
EDIT: I have like no experience with Snorlax
Id like to see Granbull on here from either B-/C+.
This mon has the rare Fairy typing, a good ability in Intimidate, great attack stat with 120, decent support moves in Heal Bell and Thunder Wave. Play rough and Earthquake provide amazing coverage, and with just 4 attack and an admant nature it beats 1v1 all of: Hydreigon, Scrafty, Mienshao, Lucario(physical), Heracross, Infernape, Machamp, Absol, Honchkrow, Goodra, Flygon, Noivern, Mega Ampharos, Umbreon, Krookodile, and Houndoom.
This is a pretty big portion of the tier, not to mention it beats lower tier threats like Virizion, Zoroark, Sharpedo, Hitmonlee, Druddigon, and a few others. Thunder wave also cripples Faster pokemon and switch ins, which do not appreciate the paralysis. Heal bell heals itself of any status, as well as its teammates.
Intimidate really gives Granbull a hand on beating physical mons, and just an example of its bulk, it only takes ~50 from CB Darmanitan.
Of course it has its flaws. Poison types mostly pose a threat, such as Roserade, Weezing, and Nidoking/Queen. It also has terrible 45 speed. I think it deserves B-, and C in the least.
This mon has the rare Fairy typing, a good ability in Intimidate, great attack stat with 120, decent support moves in Heal Bell and Thunder Wave. Play rough and Earthquake provide amazing coverage, and with just 4 attack and an admant nature it beats 1v1 all of: Hydreigon, Scrafty, Mienshao, Lucario(physical), Heracross, Infernape, Machamp, Absol, Honchkrow, Goodra, Flygon, Noivern, Mega Ampharos, Umbreon, Krookodile, and Houndoom.
This is a pretty big portion of the tier, not to mention it beats lower tier threats like Virizion, Zoroark, Sharpedo, Hitmonlee, Druddigon, and a few others. Thunder wave also cripples Faster pokemon and switch ins, which do not appreciate the paralysis. Heal bell heals itself of any status, as well as its teammates.
Intimidate really gives Granbull a hand on beating physical mons, and just an example of its bulk, it only takes ~50 from CB Darmanitan.
Of course it has its flaws. Poison types mostly pose a threat, such as Roserade, Weezing, and Nidoking/Queen. It also has terrible 45 speed. I think it deserves B-, and C in the least.
the problem with grandbull is like you said its speed as well as its complete lack of recovery. this makes it incredibly difficult for granbull to take a good hit more then once a match. this combined with its horrid speed makes it hard to justify granbull being any higher then C- since no recovery makes it super easily worn down for a wall, hindering it from doing its job much more then once or twice a match
It takes physical hits amazingly and checks every fighting type and takes hits with ease. When it hard walls things like Mienshao and forces switches its pretty good...youre definitely underselling it and you havent tried it presumably. Leftovers also isnt that bad recovery either.
It's already B+ rank (preliminary, though)
Was it always there? I could have sworn it wasnt on there anywhere..
I think Snorlax should remain A-. Like Suicune it is often a late-game win-condition with it's Curselax set. However it's a bit more versatile than Suicune, able to be used as both an effective special wall and with an AV set. However as mentioned before it has a really glaring weakness to fighting types, which is why it can't move up.
Darmanitan OHKOs with sheer force rock slide, and outspeeds via scarf; Victini has a chance to OHKO with bolt strike (33% if I remember right), and guarenteed OHKO with bolt strike after stealth rocks, and also outspeeds via scarf. Mega-Aero does not check either of the two most popular fire types in UU right now. It can also, as you mentioned, check neither the bulky nor the scarf set for Rotom-H. It can check Arcanine and Entei, but not counter them. M-Aero isn't a "good" check to fire types in UU; it is unable to check the two most popular threats, Victini and Darmanitan, reliably.
A defensive Mega-Aero with taunt and roost is completely outclassed by normal Aerodactyl, who, while losing out on a slight bit of bulk, can run pressure to stall out many walls much more easily, as well as to get by some threats, like Umbreon thanks to Aero's lower attack and leftovers, that M-Aero can't get past. Additionally, this aero doesn't take up the mega slot, allowing another Mega to be run. Attacks that many walls, such as Blissey, often carry, like seismic toss, do just as much damage to either form, and for the most part, the slight defensive buff isn't worth giving up pressure + leftovers + your mega slot.
Fair point on Quaggy though.
It checks them because it can switch in their stab moves, the mere presence of aerodactyl on a team is enough to discourage fire spam, which makes those threats 100x times easier to deal with. Also scarf victini doesnt exist.
How in the hell is normal aero outclassing mega aero at anything when it has less bulk and less power lol. The mega slot argument is irrelevant because aerodactyl is the best mega in the tier, it doesnt compete with anything. Pressure is useless because it already has taunt and high powered attacks to keep almost every wall at bay.
This is not the definition of a check; additionally, M-Aerodactyl cannot reliably switch into these STABs; Entei has a 50% chance to burn, and banded Victini and Darm can 2HKO with their STAB fire-type moves, making this a highly unreliable counter or deterrent to fire spam. Fire spam is much more effectively checked by a bulky water rather than an offensive Aerodactyl.
Additionally, Scarf and Band are Victini's two highest usage sets...
If you're running a taunt + roost uninvested set, as hilarious was talking about, then it is outclassed by normal Aero for its ability to beat Umbreon more reliably; the bulk is a fairly small drop, and while 20 base stat points in each defense is somewhat significant, this is mostly offset by the gain of leftovers. On an uninvested set, which was the focus of the coversation, Aero doesn't have high powered attacks- it instead has a single, uninvested attack, which, coming from either the mega or the normal form, is going to be fairly weak.
I frankly don't agree that Mega-Aero is undisputedly the best mega in the tier. Mega-Blastoise consistently ranks higher in usage stats (both total and 1760+), and fits onto a much wider variety of teams. M-Absol provides intense psychological pressure for hazard setters if it is able to mega-evolve early on, and can lead to misplays and mispredicts that other mons can benefit from on offensive teams. While Mega-Aerodactyl is a strong mon for offensive and balanced teams, he doesn't have the versatility needed to be the overall "best" mega for all teams.
Mega aero runs max attack on taunt+roost sets... Also normal aero takes MORE damage from foul play and if you actually think leftovers makes up for having essentially no bulk its pretty obvious you dont understand how aerodactyl works.
Starmie should stay A-. It didn't really change much, it still hits a nice speed tier and gets some decent power and is a great offensive spinner. some different sets have merits as well. The drops didn't really affect it too much as it doesn't overly mind blissey and it outspeeds the new offensive threats (not zam) and is a _decent_ infernape check. Still a pretty good mon.
However, Toxicroak should fall to B rank. Suicune is much less common, but more importantly, it's just way harder for Toxicroak to fulfill the same niche it once had as a boosting physical sweeper with new threats in the tier. Lucario is just better most of the time if you don't need a dedicated dry skin poke, boasting far superior priority, stronger stabs, and much more breaking potential (as well as its own nice pseudodefensive capabilities). Toxicroak still retains its niche as a cune counter, but given that this is less important and that it's outclassed otherwise it shouldn't stay at A-.
However, Toxicroak should fall to B rank. Suicune is much less common, but more importantly, it's just way harder for Toxicroak to fulfill the same niche it once had as a boosting physical sweeper with new threats in the tier. Lucario is just better most of the time if you don't need a dedicated dry skin poke, boasting far superior priority, stronger stabs, and much more breaking potential (as well as its own nice pseudodefensive capabilities). Toxicroak still retains its niche as a cune counter, but given that this is less important and that it's outclassed otherwise it shouldn't stay at A-.
I'm not sure on Starmie's placement; for the record, I think it's actually the worst spinner in the tier (not counting non-uu mons). Why? It's outclassed as an offensive spinner by Mega Blastoise, who steamrolls any spinblocker in the tier and has a much better defensive typing, and even Donphan, who has the bulk to take repeated physical hits (ive heard some peeps use it to check Mega Aero but i havent seen it in action in a while so w/e). Not only that, but it has to choose between either taking unnecessary recoil when spinning (LO), or deal somewhat underwhelming damage barring the Analytic boost. And in a metagame infested with Dark-types such as Scarf Hydrei / Krook as well as Mega Absol, it's somewhat difficult for it to function.
However, it could stay A- due to offensive sets without Rapid Spin, as LO 4Attacks solves its problem with Rapid Spin of having to forgo an attacking move for it; Choice Specs is actually really underrated and can break through a large portion of the tier, and cripple the mons that it cant with Trick.
tl;dr starmie is good but not for the reasons people think it is
However, it could stay A- due to offensive sets without Rapid Spin, as LO 4Attacks solves its problem with Rapid Spin of having to forgo an attacking move for it; Choice Specs is actually really underrated and can break through a large portion of the tier, and cripple the mons that it cant with Trick.
tl;dr starmie is good but not for the reasons people think it is
Starmine should be S rank. It's speed and SpAtk can kill big threats like Infernape and Slowbro with relative ease. He can run a life orb set with recover to make him a big threat. The only counter to Patrick Star is probably in the ditches of the C rack, aka: Sceptile and Jolteon, since they outspeed and Leaf Blade or thunderbolt it to death.
About Toxicroak, shove it to S rank as well. He has a extensive movepool and good mixed offensive stats, you know he means to sweep. And for those psychic types visiting, sucker punch says "HELLO"!
About Toxicroak, shove it to S rank as well. He has a extensive movepool and good mixed offensive stats, you know he means to sweep. And for those psychic types visiting, sucker punch says "HELLO"!
You really need more (a fuckton more) ladder experience before you make any claims, Greg.
I can see Starmie falling to B+ or staying at A-. On one hand, Blissey and Alakazam make Starmie's life difficult, between walling the hell out of it (I think you need Specs Analytic Psyshock to 2HKO) and almost completely outclassing as a speedy special attacker (Starmie's only saving grace here is coverage). On the other hand, you resist both of Infernape's STABs and outspeed and OHKO, while Lucario's only answer to you is boosted Extreme Speed. Still, Blissey's presence is much more damning than anything else helps Starmie. And I agree with all the people saying that Starmie is outclassed as an offensive spinner, but if you already have an integral Mega, Starmie can get the job done.
I can see Starmie falling to B+ or staying at A-. On one hand, Blissey and Alakazam make Starmie's life difficult, between walling the hell out of it (I think you need Specs Analytic Psyshock to 2HKO) and almost completely outclassing as a speedy special attacker (Starmie's only saving grace here is coverage). On the other hand, you resist both of Infernape's STABs and outspeed and OHKO, while Lucario's only answer to you is boosted Extreme Speed. Still, Blissey's presence is much more damning than anything else helps Starmie. And I agree with all the people saying that Starmie is outclassed as an offensive spinner, but if you already have an integral Mega, Starmie can get the job done.
I'd put Vivillon at B- or even C+. Compoundeyes Sleep Powder/Hurricane with Quiver Dance is scary but it just doesn't have a ton of setup opportunities with its nonexistent bulk, and even at +2 it can't reliably get past Blissey, Mega Aerodactyl, Mega Aggron, or even Mega Ampharos (using its standard sets, I didn't calc with specially defensive but I don't think people use that). Base 89 speed is also pretty poor, because if it's Modest then it's outsped by every scarfer in the tier at +1 and still outsped by most if Timid (and Timid also means that it's not going to hit as hard). It's hard to compare it to the 'mons that have already been ranked since Quiver Dance is really a unique trait as long as Venomoth and Volcarona are in BL but I think the closest would be Porygon-Z, who hits harder and has better coverage at the cost of having to choose between boosting speed or boosting special attack.
I have little to no experience with Bronzong in UU; Levitate is nice but we've already discussed the huge blow to Steel/Psychic typing with Jirachi. I guess being bulky with access to any combination of Screens+Trick Room+SR+Explosion is a niche but I feel like there are plenty of Pokemon in the tier that will do each of those things better.
I have little to no experience with Bronzong in UU; Levitate is nice but we've already discussed the huge blow to Steel/Psychic typing with Jirachi. I guess being bulky with access to any combination of Screens+Trick Room+SR+Explosion is a niche but I feel like there are plenty of Pokemon in the tier that will do each of those things better.
Bronzong has basically 0 utility outside of a lead for Trick Room teams (and even carbink outclasses it in that imo). It's utterly outclassed by Jirachi in almost any other way - jirachi can set up sr, dual screens, deal damage (and much more). The access to slightly more powerful attacks against fast stuff is nice, and the defensive abilities are o_k, but it really does not find a home anywhere.
Steel/Psychic typing in general just sucks ass this gen even when it does have nifty defensive immunities, ground isn't all too common and heatproof is only really useful if you're running Earthquake. I guess it could be a decent lure for fire types but it doesn't even come close to OHKOing stuff like Victini even after it has V-created.
Bronzong isn't even good niche shit, it's just shit. It shouldn't even be near the B+ ranks. I'd put as far down as C+ or even C rank.
I haven't played Vivillon or even seen it much in this meta, but I think there's a reason for that. The drops really did not help it - Blissey straight-up walls it, Goodra walls it (even though lol goodra), Lucario can ESpeed it, and perhaps most importantly (as I already discussed) SashZam stops every boosting set-up sweeper cold. It still has all the huge support problems it did before (paper thin defenses, 4x Weakness to SR), but no longer is able to thrive without a Hyper Offense priority-free meta that it used to do work in. Vivillon too should go down a couple of ranks to either B- or C+.
Steel/Psychic typing in general just sucks ass this gen even when it does have nifty defensive immunities, ground isn't all too common and heatproof is only really useful if you're running Earthquake. I guess it could be a decent lure for fire types but it doesn't even come close to OHKOing stuff like Victini even after it has V-created.
Bronzong isn't even good niche shit, it's just shit. It shouldn't even be near the B+ ranks. I'd put as far down as C+ or even C rank.
I haven't played Vivillon or even seen it much in this meta, but I think there's a reason for that. The drops really did not help it - Blissey straight-up walls it, Goodra walls it (even though lol goodra), Lucario can ESpeed it, and perhaps most importantly (as I already discussed) SashZam stops every boosting set-up sweeper cold. It still has all the huge support problems it did before (paper thin defenses, 4x Weakness to SR), but no longer is able to thrive without a Hyper Offense priority-free meta that it used to do work in. Vivillon too should go down a couple of ranks to either B- or C+.
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