Honestly, I don't think Togekiss outclasses Togetic; they just do different things. Togekiss is more offensive, and Togetic is more defensive.
-
Welcome to Smogon! Take a moment to read the Introduction to Smogon for a run-down on everything Smogon, and make sure you take some time to read the global rules.
-
Congrats to the winners of the 2023 Smog Awards!
XY UU Viability Ranking Thread V2
- Thread starter KM
- Start date
- Status
Why is Ambipom moving to C-Rank? Isn't it a poor pokemon overall and outclassed by cincinno for the most part? I'd just like reasoning behind it, not really disagreeing with the move persay.
We decided that base 115 speed coupled with a predictable but overall usable movest (specifically that fakeout/u-turn pivot combo) warranted another look at Ambipom. This will now be updated weekly, so we'll see what happens.
Sounds fantastic, I've always thought that Ambipom had some sort of viability, depending on how much time I have this week, I may experiment and come back with a more informed post.
Ooh definitely liking this change to the rankings, long overdue. Kudos to you guys! There is only a couple things I disagree with.
While it's nice to see stuff like Golbat, Delphox and Uxie on the ranking list since they all have viable niches there are a couple nominees for C Rank I am a bit skeptical about mainly Hariyama and Ambipom. These two just don't seem anymore viable than the shitmons like Dusclops and Leavanny on the last list. Also, does Xatu really belong in C+? I don't know much about it so I'm honestly asking here: what does Xatu have over Espeon? And does it really belong in the same rank as proven decent mons like Porygon 2 and Treavent?
While it's nice to see stuff like Golbat, Delphox and Uxie on the ranking list since they all have viable niches there are a couple nominees for C Rank I am a bit skeptical about mainly Hariyama and Ambipom. These two just don't seem anymore viable than the shitmons like Dusclops and Leavanny on the last list. Also, does Xatu really belong in C+? I don't know much about it so I'm honestly asking here: what does Xatu have over Espeon? And does it really belong in the same rank as proven decent mons like Porygon 2 and Treavent?
Xatu doesn't have anything "over" Espeon persay, it just has niche viability. Flying type does grant it immunity to ground and a decent check to CB machamp/mienshao. I'm also a sucker for anything that has u-turn/volt-switch, as I think these are tier-breaking moves.
Ambipom will be relooked at this week and then further decisions will be made on its viability. As for the C- rank, these need to be longer tests, and we'll probably be using Research Week to some extent to help out with this testing. This new system to the viability rankings will ensure that we keep things moving along at a good speed.
Xatu's ground immunity makes it a risky, but sometimes rewarding switch-in to things like Nidoqueen and Swampert, esp since Offensive LO Xatu actually OHKOs Pert with Grass Knot
Tagging Kitten Milk to put Ludicolo on the C- testing grounds, it can sweep in rain which with Azelf around isn't too difficult to set up, and it has wide coverage in Water-Grass-Ice
Not for now. We'll discuss it though.
I'm really not agreeing with Ambipom in C.
I mean it isn't really good in RU (http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/ambipom.3509742/) and mostly outclassed, so I can't really see how it's better in UU all of a sudden.
Maybe with some good arguments someone can convince me!
I mean it isn't really good in RU (http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/ambipom.3509742/) and mostly outclassed, so I can't really see how it's better in UU all of a sudden.
Maybe with some good arguments someone can convince me!
removing ambipom after discussion with other co-leaders.
Last edited:
Hey guys,
A couple changes to the recent update:
a) The C+ and C- ranks have been abolished, we realized this was counterintuitive to the original point of this version of the Viability Thread. We want the C rank to ecompass a larger aspect of UU niches. The C- rank will be renamed to the "Research Week Testing Mons". In this aspect, namehtmas and Mazz will be showing you which mons we think have a shot at fulfilling a niche, and the you, the public, are encouraged for testing these mons.
b) That was the final "immediate implementation" for a while. We encourage you guys to post your findings, as these rankings rely on your participation to stay updated (the 5 of us can only gossip about mons so much).
c) Here is the updated list of mons currently up for rank change consideration. Please feel free to add the following mons to your discussion to any other changes you think belong in this thread:
Please note that you can discuss any mon outside this list as long as you follow the proper discussion format.
A couple changes to the recent update:
a) The C+ and C- ranks have been abolished, we realized this was counterintuitive to the original point of this version of the Viability Thread. We want the C rank to ecompass a larger aspect of UU niches. The C- rank will be renamed to the "Research Week Testing Mons". In this aspect, namehtmas and Mazz will be showing you which mons we think have a shot at fulfilling a niche, and the you, the public, are encouraged for testing these mons.
b) That was the final "immediate implementation" for a while. We encourage you guys to post your findings, as these rankings rely on your participation to stay updated (the 5 of us can only gossip about mons so much).
c) Here is the updated list of mons currently up for rank change consideration. Please feel free to add the following mons to your discussion to any other changes you think belong in this thread:
Mienshao A+ -> S
M-Aggron B+ -> A-
Rotom-C B+ -> B
Alakazam A+ -> A
Cresselia B+ -> B
Mismagius C+ -> B-
Hariyama C rank
Porygon2 C -> B-
M-Aggron B+ -> A-
Rotom-C B+ -> B
Alakazam A+ -> A
Cresselia B+ -> B
Mismagius C+ -> B-
Hariyama C rank
Porygon2 C -> B-
Please note that you can discuss any mon outside this list as long as you follow the proper discussion format.
Last edited:
I'm too tired to comment on much, but as long as Togekiss is in the tier Mienshao is not S.
If/once the damn bird-thing leaves, Mienshao being the top-tier force he is could move up to S. If I remember tomorrow, I'll edit better arguments in, but as of right now all I can think is that Reckless High Jump Kick has like four safe switch-ins, and Mienshao either has coverage for them or can U-turn cheese the fuck out of them.
If/once the damn bird-thing leaves, Mienshao being the top-tier force he is could move up to S. If I remember tomorrow, I'll edit better arguments in, but as of right now all I can think is that Reckless High Jump Kick has like four safe switch-ins, and Mienshao either has coverage for them or can U-turn cheese the fuck out of them.
LO Mienshao can actually deal with togekiss pretty well if you run poison jab.
252 Atk Life Orb Mienshao Poison Jab vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Togekiss: 231-273 (74.2 - 87.7%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
Obviously scarf-mien isn't going to be muscling through a bulky 4x resist with HJK, but that's not really what it's for.
252 Atk Life Orb Mienshao Poison Jab vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Togekiss: 231-273 (74.2 - 87.7%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
Obviously scarf-mien isn't going to be muscling through a bulky 4x resist with HJK, but that's not really what it's for.
Stone edge might be better, as hitting crobat on a switch in is fairly more desirable due to the speed difference, at least to me anyway. If you see a fairy, knock off and then U-turn to a poison or steel is what mienshao should do.
I'm just going to discuss some of my opinions on the research week Pokemon here, since there are tied in.
- Bronzong should stay unranked. The metagame is still very unfavorable to it. Its role as a Bulky Hazard setter is pretty much done better by other Pokemon in the tier. Furthermore, it really doesn't do well against top metagame threats such as Hydreigon, Suicune, and Fighting-types.
- Chatot should be unranked. Sure, it gets STAB Boomburst and an improved Chatter, but at the end of the day Base 92 Sp. Att. holds it back significantly in power. Furthermore, its Speed is extremely underwhelming as Base 91 is way under the acceptable UU threshold. Essentially, it's a super-frail version of Exploud that is only faster against some threats. Its Specs set is a waste of space on a team and its Nasty Plot set should not even be attempted.
- Combusken should be C. Many people have argued about whether Combusken should be on this list. Although it falls shy of base 108s after one boost, it's still faster than a good portion of the UU metagame. A Jolly variant can easily outspeed stuff like Hydreigon, Jirachi, Mienshao and secure a +1 Speed. Baton Passing a +1 Speed gives your team (most likely offensive) a lot of offensive momentum (even more so since you pass the +1 Speed). Granted, Combusken is still frail after Eviolite, so this kind of stuff can't be repeated too often, but if used right on an offensive team, you can easily grab a lot of offensive momentum.
- Cradily should be C. Although full stall is very tough in the current UU right now, Cradily still maintains a good niche as a strong check to Suicune and a crap-ton of Bulky Waters. Personally, the CurseTalk set is very strong, easily setting up in the faces of popular Bulky waters such as Vaporeon, Suicune, Swampert, and Aura Sphere-less Blastoise.
- Ditto should be unranked. When the metagame leans offensively, Ditto functions very well. When the meta leans toward more defensive plays, it's not very good. Based what I'm looking off of usage stats and viability rankings, Ditto's placement is a huge "meh".
- Spiritomb should be C. Spiritomb is surprisingly good against offense. I'd honestly say that its biggest niche right now is its ability to trap MegaZam, Rachi, Chandy, and a shit-ton of Psychic and Ghost types very well.
- Vivillon should be C. I'm a sucker for Pokemon that can learn both Hurricane and Quiver Dance.
252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Nidoking Flamethrower vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Bronzong: 161-192 (47.6 - 56.8%) -- 37.5% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Nidoqueen Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Bronzong: 203-239 (60 - 70.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Arguably, you can make a case regarding how it's much less common than moves such as Sludge Wave, Ice Beam, Earth Power, or Thunderbolt, it should be noted that from the moveset stats for Nidoking at 1000, 1500, 1630, and 1760, the percent usage of Flamethrower on Nidoking is 26.289%, 26.039%, 23.300%, and 17.219%, respectively. Similarly, you can make a case regarding ignoring 1760 metrics simply because the playstyle falls more in line with Tournament play (everyone running weird shit to one-up the opponent). Regardless, considering that 25% of all Nidokings used in UU potentially run Flamethrower, Bronzong's credibility as an answer to Nidoking comes into question.
Regarding Nidoqueen, her metrics are much different since she's more of a Offensive Support Pokemon. She's very cookie cutter and this becomes more apparent the higher you climb up the ladder. Bronzong is in fact a good counter to Nidoqueen, but just being able to counter one Pokemon doesn't really justify Bronzong's niche. Although your point regarding Bronzong's ability to switch into Grass-types very well is valid, specifically Shaymin, it can't really scare any of them out in any way except for the Gyro Ball of course.
Your final claim is honestly an odd point to bring up. Although the stats indicate Bronzong as a very bulky thing, he does lack recovery, which significantly cuts down its ability to deal with offensive Pokemon. Analyzing the Viability rankings as well as usage stats, Bronzong suffers against a lot of the top tier threats in UU right now, namely:
Honestly, if there is one benefit regarding Bronzong, it's that it is almost a staple on Trick Room teams due to Trick Room, bulk, and Explosion, grabbing the team significant offensive momentum. However, Trick Room teams are technically considered niche, and to be a niche of a niche is kind of an odd way of justify placement on this list.
252+ SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Nidoqueen Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Bronzong: 203-239 (60 - 70.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Arguably, you can make a case regarding how it's much less common than moves such as Sludge Wave, Ice Beam, Earth Power, or Thunderbolt, it should be noted that from the moveset stats for Nidoking at 1000, 1500, 1630, and 1760, the percent usage of Flamethrower on Nidoking is 26.289%, 26.039%, 23.300%, and 17.219%, respectively. Similarly, you can make a case regarding ignoring 1760 metrics simply because the playstyle falls more in line with Tournament play (everyone running weird shit to one-up the opponent). Regardless, considering that 25% of all Nidokings used in UU potentially run Flamethrower, Bronzong's credibility as an answer to Nidoking comes into question.
Regarding Nidoqueen, her metrics are much different since she's more of a Offensive Support Pokemon. She's very cookie cutter and this becomes more apparent the higher you climb up the ladder. Bronzong is in fact a good counter to Nidoqueen, but just being able to counter one Pokemon doesn't really justify Bronzong's niche. Although your point regarding Bronzong's ability to switch into Grass-types very well is valid, specifically Shaymin, it can't really scare any of them out in any way except for the Gyro Ball of course.
Your final claim is honestly an odd point to bring up. Although the stats indicate Bronzong as a very bulky thing, he does lack recovery, which significantly cuts down its ability to deal with offensive Pokemon. Analyzing the Viability rankings as well as usage stats, Bronzong suffers against a lot of the top tier threats in UU right now, namely:
- Hydreigon
- Anything with Knock Off (some Fighting types)
- Chandelure
- Blastoise-Mega
- Krookodile
- Suicune
- Absol-Mega
- Haxorus
- Infernape
- Nidoking
- Sableye
Honestly, if there is one benefit regarding Bronzong, it's that it is almost a staple on Trick Room teams due to Trick Room, bulk, and Explosion, grabbing the team significant offensive momentum. However, Trick Room teams are technically considered niche, and to be a niche of a niche is kind of an odd way of justify placement on this list.
K so I've been using ditto a bunch recently and it definitely has a niche (my semistall team uses it as a check to luc primarily). The argument that it's better in offensive metas is true but it's never dead weight. Against other defensive teams it gives me more staying power by giving me more heal bell pp and keeping itself healthy by getting doubled into crobats and stuff. It also gives me another defog/rs user.
Obviously it's frail af but it can take weak hits from defensive mons and I don't switch it into offensive mons unless they're like ff arcanine.
Obviously it's frail af but it can take weak hits from defensive mons and I don't switch it into offensive mons unless they're like ff arcanine.
I think moving Cobalion up to A- rank isn't a stretch of the imagination, its viability has been on the rise ever since Slowbro left the tier and both the SubSD and bulky support sets are just very good in the current metagame. The SubSD set being able to set up on Alomomola makes breaking through the Blissey + Alom + Forry/Fairy cores a breeze and obviously using Scarf Hydreigon and most Rachis as setup fodder means it's never dead weight vs. offense as well. Defensively Cobalion is no slouch either, essentially thanks to its great defense stat and typing. Being able to rk SD Luke even when weakened is just incredible utility, and the dark resist is invaluable not only when dealing with stuff like Honchkrow but also to pressure 'mons like Band Krook when Cobal is paired with Hydreigon/ACrobat/Mega Aero/another ground immunity. The bulky set is also very good on voltturn (actually if you wanna try out a niche set using mixed HP Ice or even Specs to catch Gligar is really nice on dedicated voltturn teams because Gligar is usually the only thing stopping Mega Ampharos). Basically Cobalion capitalizes on a lot of the current top threats.
I also kinda want to make a case for Granbull to go back up to B+, I'm honestly not sure why it was dropped when Aromatisse of all things stayed up there. I think Aroma is a lot harder to justify in the current metagame, it can counter Krook sure but Shao doesn't really care thanks to PJab and especially U-turn ; I don't really think it should drop tho because gen6 Knock Off and Sableye carve it enough of a niche. Meanwhile Granbull is the only thing that stands up to SD Hax on stall (I wish ppl would catch on that LumSD Hax is by far the best set, incredible wallbreaker while DD just can't sweep since it's too frail to set up twice and literally all the common scarfers bar Chandy can deal with it) + with the rise of CB Heavy Slam Machamp on the upper ladder a defensive fairy that doesn't get bopped is nice (same thing goes for Iron Tail Mega Absol) and of course it can do the usual shit ie switch into Scarf Dreigon, Krook etc... A bit more controversial than Cobal but idk I think Granbull is still good enough for B+.
I also kinda want to make a case for Granbull to go back up to B+, I'm honestly not sure why it was dropped when Aromatisse of all things stayed up there. I think Aroma is a lot harder to justify in the current metagame, it can counter Krook sure but Shao doesn't really care thanks to PJab and especially U-turn ; I don't really think it should drop tho because gen6 Knock Off and Sableye carve it enough of a niche. Meanwhile Granbull is the only thing that stands up to SD Hax on stall (I wish ppl would catch on that LumSD Hax is by far the best set, incredible wallbreaker while DD just can't sweep since it's too frail to set up twice and literally all the common scarfers bar Chandy can deal with it) + with the rise of CB Heavy Slam Machamp on the upper ladder a defensive fairy that doesn't get bopped is nice (same thing goes for Iron Tail Mega Absol) and of course it can do the usual shit ie switch into Scarf Dreigon, Krook etc... A bit more controversial than Cobal but idk I think Granbull is still good enough for B+.
I second both of these nominations. I've been using both Cobalion and Granbull on a team I've been using recently and they're both pretty good. Granbull is really good right now, being able to check top tier threats like Absol Haxorus Machamp, while being able to provide heal bell support, so that a cleric like vaporeon or umbreon can afford to run baton pass. Cobalion in general is a really underrated threat. The Sub SD set takes advantage of its nice bulk and its speed tier is amazing, being able to both tie Infernape and outspeed Mienshao(if they are not scarfed).
I don't think Mega Aggron should go any higher than A-. From my experience of using it, it is quite underrated, and checks some top threats like mega alakazam, roserade, and it beats every variant of Jirachi, which is a huge accomplishment considering how much of a threat Jirachi is. Its trouble versus Bulky waters and its weakness to fighting fire keeping it from being a-rank material though. Although I definitely agree with moving it up to A-.
- Status