Whimsi definitely should move to A-. One of the few Pokemon who benefit from both bans from Tini and Togekiss. Prankster Leech seed sets can stop Suicune very well and can of course deal fight fighting spam well too. Furthermore, the LO set that's somewhat popular in RU works nicely in UU too.
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XY UU Viability Ranking Thread V2
- Thread starter KM
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Good to see there are more people here in this thread that support whimsicott. I agree with you completely and think I used an offensive set in RU once which did work a bit well.
Can I just say something right now?
Do you guys remember what was a huge problem for the last thread? Nearly all the ranks were inflated. We had shit like Metagross in A. obviously, that was a while ago and the meta is completely different, but what i'm trying to get at here is that there's no reason to move stuff up so high that there's going to be practically nothing left in C. While I'm not saying that Doublade and Whimsicott aren't worthy of moving up (although A- is over the top and if you think i'm ever going approve of that then you're wrong lol), I think that we should probably avoid making noms that are way too drastic, because a pokemon jumping from b- all the way to a- is extremely questionable lol.
I'm not opposed to moving Whimsicott to B+, as Specs is pretty good as an offensive check to shit like Dragons, Megastoise, Mienshao, Machamp, etc. but it's not really A- worthy considering it has mediocre defenses which are only complemented by a good typing and falls flat to a lot of common stuff, particularly Rachi, who is everywhere in the current meta.
Doublade will probably go to B, maybe B+ if i'm high or something but imo the fact that it has so much trouble with bulky water-types, has terrible special defense and hp which means virtually 60% of the specially offensive tier can force it out, and is reliant on shadow sneak to check faster threats since it's slow as balls are all huge flaws for it. I can't really see it going any higher than B, and that's being generous. Will edit more on this later.
Do you guys remember what was a huge problem for the last thread? Nearly all the ranks were inflated. We had shit like Metagross in A. obviously, that was a while ago and the meta is completely different, but what i'm trying to get at here is that there's no reason to move stuff up so high that there's going to be practically nothing left in C. While I'm not saying that Doublade and Whimsicott aren't worthy of moving up (although A- is over the top and if you think i'm ever going approve of that then you're wrong lol), I think that we should probably avoid making noms that are way too drastic, because a pokemon jumping from b- all the way to a- is extremely questionable lol.
I'm not opposed to moving Whimsicott to B+, as Specs is pretty good as an offensive check to shit like Dragons, Megastoise, Mienshao, Machamp, etc. but it's not really A- worthy considering it has mediocre defenses which are only complemented by a good typing and falls flat to a lot of common stuff, particularly Rachi, who is everywhere in the current meta.
Doublade will probably go to B, maybe B+ if i'm high or something but imo the fact that it has so much trouble with bulky water-types, has terrible special defense and hp which means virtually 60% of the specially offensive tier can force it out, and is reliant on shadow sneak to check faster threats since it's slow as balls are all huge flaws for it. I can't really see it going any higher than B, and that's being generous. Will edit more on this later.
I would like to nominate Slurpuff to B- rank. Its ability to go either play physical or special gives it an edge over the other unburden user;hitmonlee. its physical set is walled by quagsire and mega aggron, but its special set allows it to beat mega aggron with a boosted flamethrower. Fairy/normal coverage from the physical set let it KO most of the tier easily With 1 move. The cm set with flamethrower/surf/draining kiss allows it to plow through its usual checks in the Nidos, Mega Aggron, Chandy, etc.. once it has the Unburden boost
Slurpuff is also quite frail, an before you activate the Sitrus Berry it's probably already dead considering every team carries at least one extreme hard-hitter
Nominating Infernape to A+ Rank imo
With Victini being banned, best offensive Ape check is dead so now is even better. Infernape is the only avalaible fire mon which can work well on both sides as physical mon or special with nasty plot, or even mixed [ Choice Scarf | Band | Sword Dance | All-Out Attacker | Nasty Plot ] definitely a lot of options with an huge movepool.
Ape actually can 2hko/hko every mon with standard moves/sets to every S or A ranked mon, the only ones which avoids that are Chandelure and Tentacruel (most close check is bulky Aerodactyl-Mega) which these mons loses if Infernape runs EQ which is not a bad option at all to use nowadays in case that you're using a CB or All-Out Attacker set.
With Victini being banned, best offensive Ape check is dead so now is even better. Infernape is the only avalaible fire mon which can work well on both sides as physical mon or special with nasty plot, or even mixed [ Choice Scarf | Band | Sword Dance | All-Out Attacker | Nasty Plot ] definitely a lot of options with an huge movepool.
Ape actually can 2hko/hko every mon with standard moves/sets to every S or A ranked mon, the only ones which avoids that are Chandelure and Tentacruel (most close check is bulky Aerodactyl-Mega) which these mons loses if Infernape runs EQ which is not a bad option at all to use nowadays in case that you're using a CB or All-Out Attacker set.
Gonna nominate Mega-Aggron for A-
This thing's ability as a team supporter is ridiculous. It has a wonderful movepool (Stealth Rock, TWave, Rock Polish, RestTalk, elemental punches, Aqua Tail, Stone Edge, Heavy Slam, etc.) So it can function from a bulky supporter to a sweeper. With max SpD investment and RestTalk, this thing's impossible to kill. If you're gonna try to boost up (NP especially), it also has TWave or Toxic. Its RP set is also dangerous as it has a titanic Atk stat and a legit offensive movepool. Versatile, extremely bulky and unpredictable, this thing's gonna wreck your shit.
This thing's ability as a team supporter is ridiculous. It has a wonderful movepool (Stealth Rock, TWave, Rock Polish, RestTalk, elemental punches, Aqua Tail, Stone Edge, Heavy Slam, etc.) So it can function from a bulky supporter to a sweeper. With max SpD investment and RestTalk, this thing's impossible to kill. If you're gonna try to boost up (NP especially), it also has TWave or Toxic. Its RP set is also dangerous as it has a titanic Atk stat and a legit offensive movepool. Versatile, extremely bulky and unpredictable, this thing's gonna wreck your shit.
Umbreon has been moved to A- rank. I'm not entirely convinced that I should move whims up even to B+ yet, it still is demolished by the still quite-commonly run coverage on the mons it's supposed to wall, which severely hinders it. I actually prefer its offensive set to its bulky set (which is rather unreliable in many senses of the word), but I'd like to hear more discussion about this.
Same goes for Ape and Meggron - i'm not averse to either of the changes, but I want some mroe input.
Same goes for Ape and Meggron - i'm not averse to either of the changes, but I want some mroe input.
Probably just referencing Lucario in general.
Infernape is pretty good right now, too. Personally, his MixApe set is much better with Victini gone. Close Combat/Overheat/Grass Knot messes up a good portion of UU's Defensive options, especially with Mew going up to OU. However, the biggest roadblock MixApe has that prevents it from being truly strong is the fact that many of UU's strong defensive options also hit relatively hard, and combined with Infernape's shit-tier defenses, you have a large issue with it's survivability. He's not as outclassed as before, but these certain issues don't really make him A+ material.
Well, if we're talking physdef whimsicott...
Mienshao commonly runs PJab
Lucario runs Steel Coverage nowadays
Machamp runs BP
Viriz runs Stone Edge / Zen Headbutt and can absorb moonblast pretty well
Hydra runs FB / FC
Kingdra runs Iron Head (sometimes)
it's just very rarely reliable other than for Krookodile, which is unfortunate. Unlike other phys def pokemon, it can't even take one of those coverage moves most of the time.
Mienshao commonly runs PJab
Lucario runs Steel Coverage nowadays
Machamp runs BP
Viriz runs Stone Edge / Zen Headbutt and can absorb moonblast pretty well
Hydra runs FB / FC
Kingdra runs Iron Head (sometimes)
it's just very rarely reliable other than for Krookodile, which is unfortunate. Unlike other phys def pokemon, it can't even take one of those coverage moves most of the time.
yeah mienshao can run pjab but I wouldn't call it common. it's much more common these days for shao to run uturn/hjk/edge/knock. although because shao does occasionally run pjab it's not a counter, just a check.
luke can run steel coverage but the only reason i was saying it could check luke was because of encoring it into setup on the switch. now theoretically your opp could go for flash cannon the switch, but that's why it's a check.
machamp def runs bp but fails to ohko whimsi.
virizion literally only scores a 5hko on whimsi unboosted with edge, and if it sets up an sd there's always encore + moonblast:
252 Atk Virizion Stone Edge vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Whimsicott: 68-81 (21 - 25%) -- possible 5HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
i have never seen kingdra run iron head. i guess it's a possibility though. even then +1 life orb adamant iron head (i know this is not the set, just calcing max damage output) fails to ohko.
whimsi mostly serves as the "hydra can't spam draco" insurance. you're not going to blindly switch in whimsicott knowing hydra almost always runs fire stab, but it means the opponents risks losing momentum by clicking draco.
only pjab shao, luke and hydra can ohko whimsi out of that list you just mentioned. luke can be encored into coverage and shao mostly runs edge to hit crobat since it's better overall coverage. anyway you bring up a good point but i still think that whimsi isn't meant to "wall" mienshao or any of the other mons that it has nice resists against, it's meant to check it. there's two completely different things. you can't specifically "wall" something if it has momentum and your "wall" has no recovery. and whimsi checks every mon on the that list, while being able to counter viriz and most versions of kingdra. whimsicott doesn't have monstrous walling stats and isn't going to act the same way as, say, suicune or umbreon. it spreads status and supports so well while checking plenty of highly threatening mons in the metagame.
also wow this was a long post. sorry for my rambling.
luke can run steel coverage but the only reason i was saying it could check luke was because of encoring it into setup on the switch. now theoretically your opp could go for flash cannon the switch, but that's why it's a check.
machamp def runs bp but fails to ohko whimsi.
virizion literally only scores a 5hko on whimsi unboosted with edge, and if it sets up an sd there's always encore + moonblast:
252 Atk Virizion Stone Edge vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Whimsicott: 68-81 (21 - 25%) -- possible 5HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
i have never seen kingdra run iron head. i guess it's a possibility though. even then +1 life orb adamant iron head (i know this is not the set, just calcing max damage output) fails to ohko.
whimsi mostly serves as the "hydra can't spam draco" insurance. you're not going to blindly switch in whimsicott knowing hydra almost always runs fire stab, but it means the opponents risks losing momentum by clicking draco.
only pjab shao, luke and hydra can ohko whimsi out of that list you just mentioned. luke can be encored into coverage and shao mostly runs edge to hit crobat since it's better overall coverage. anyway you bring up a good point but i still think that whimsi isn't meant to "wall" mienshao or any of the other mons that it has nice resists against, it's meant to check it. there's two completely different things. you can't specifically "wall" something if it has momentum and your "wall" has no recovery. and whimsi checks every mon on the that list, while being able to counter viriz and most versions of kingdra. whimsicott doesn't have monstrous walling stats and isn't going to act the same way as, say, suicune or umbreon. it spreads status and supports so well while checking plenty of highly threatening mons in the metagame.
also wow this was a long post. sorry for my rambling.
This is obviously going to be because of Research Week but I'm gonna do a 180 on my initial opinion and suggest that Delphox be ranked, so lets give it a placement at C. Prior to the September shifts, it was outclassed by Victini due to similar typing but overall worse defenses and offenses. However, the Calm Mind set is able to wreak havoc, and thanks to its nice speed tier, its able to punish a lot of bulky offensive teams, as a Calm Mind under its belt lets it wallbreak with STAB Fire Blast and Psyshock while Grass Knot means it can stuff any bulky water, making it unique in its wallbreaking capabilities as a Fire-type. To be honest, this is probably more B- or B material, but the more important thing is that it actually gets placed on the list.
Gligar has been fitting fantastically on many cores, as people are starting to realize that SR and Defog shouldn't be used on the same set. U-turn has been making a comeback, and synergizes well with a lot of U-turners and especially Volt Switchers. SpDef Gligar has also become an intriguing set, making it a very efficient mixed wall that can take on LO Hydreigon while acting as the best Mega Amph counter in the tier (HP Ice is shit). The set is still able to counter Lucario, one of the hardest Pokemon to even check, so I think it's time for people to stop hating on Gligar because of its NFE status and let it rise to B+
Anybody who has been playing recently has noticed the drastic influx of Krookodile, with CB, SR, and Scarf all becoming top tier sets that fit onto teams to provide a sturdy Luke check, Pursuit support, and strong EQ/Knock Offs. Thanks to Intimidate, it can even trap Jirachi and Crobat which can sometimes be the only roadblocks for Fighting-types like Lucario and Grass-types like Roserade and Shaymin.
While Hydreigon is still plenty used, Granbull was moreso for the double duty that it had against Heracross. Jirachi becoming the best Pokemon in the tier as well as sets like SubCM Jirachi, SD Cobalion, and NP Luke becoming much more viable has also kind of put a damper on it. The overall metagame shift has pushed Granbull back down to obscurity, and it's time for it to drop just a tad more
That's all I'm going to suggest for now, as other changes that I had in mind seemed to be much more subjective
I don't particularly find having to use Diamond Storm & Moonblast to be as big of an issue with Diancie, in so much that it actually benefits her by giving her a viable attacking option when hit by WoW from mons such as Sableye. I'm going by the defensive SR set so not as if she invests heavily on offenses, so it isn't such a big deal to go mixed.
That said the issue is clear that the metagame has shifted from one being infested by fire types to one more filled with water types. While dark types are abound there is also an influx of fighting types that help to keep them in check. I agree that the metagame right now is just not favorable to Diancie now that Victini has left. A free switch in to Jirachi is obviously going to pose a problem.
I completely agree with all the nominations. Gligar can wall a majority of pokemon, krookodile is a boss and Granbull deserves to drop to B(It just isn't as good as it used to be).(unranked) --> C
This is obviously going to be because of Research Week but I'm gonna do a 180 on my initial opinion and suggest that Delphox be ranked, so lets give it a placement at C. Prior to the September shifts, it was outclassed by Victini due to similar typing but overall worse defenses and offenses. However, the Calm Mind set is able to wreak havoc, and thanks to its nice speed tier, its able to punish a lot of bulky offensive teams, as a Calm Mind under its belt lets it wallbreak with STAB Fire Blast and Psyshock while Grass Knot means it can stuff any bulky water, making it unique in its wallbreaking capabilities as a Fire-type. To be honest, this is probably more B- or B material, but the more important thing is that it actually gets placed on the list.
B --> B+
Gligar has been fitting fantastically on many cores, as people are starting to realize that SR and Defog shouldn't be used on the same set. U-turn has been making a comeback, and synergizes well with a lot of U-turners and especially Volt Switchers. SpDef Gligar has also become an intriguing set, making it a very efficient mixed wall that can take on LO Hydreigon while acting as the best Mega Amph counter in the tier (HP Ice is shit). The set is still able to counter Lucario, one of the hardest Pokemon to even check, so I think it's time for people to stop hating on Gligar because of its NFE status and let it rise to B+
A --> A+
Anybody who has been playing recently has noticed the drastic influx of Krookodile, with CB, SR, and Scarf all becoming top tier sets that fit onto teams to provide a sturdy Luke check, Pursuit support, and strong EQ/Knock Offs. Thanks to Intimidate, it can even trap Jirachi and Crobat which can sometimes be the only roadblocks for Fighting-types like Lucario and Grass-types like Roserade and Shaymin.
B+ --> B
While Hydreigon is still plenty used, Granbull was moreso for the double duty that it had against Heracross. Jirachi becoming the best Pokemon in the tier as well as sets like SubCM Jirachi, SD Cobalion, and NP Luke becoming much more viable has also kind of put a damper on it. The overall metagame shift has pushed Granbull back down to obscurity, and it's time for it to drop just a tad more
That's all I'm going to suggest for now, as other changes that I had in mind seemed to be much more subjective
TrulyDevious and canasian i ran CM puffin a more HO team with hazards and memento support. I paired it up with scarf krook and the were able to clean up easily. With memento, its able to aurvive hits and safely activate unburden...
-2 252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Nidoking Sludge Wave vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Slurpuff: 252-299 (82.3 - 97.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
-2 252 Atk Life Orb Mienshao Poison Jab vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Slurpuff: 127-151 (41.5 - 49.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
-2 252+ Atk Life Orb Honchkrow Brave Bird vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Slurpuff: 153-183 (50 - 59.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
-2 252 Atk Sheer Force Darmanitan Flare Blitz vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Slurpuff: 153-181 (50 - 59.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
-2 252+ Atk Life Orb Mold Breaker Haxorus Poison Jab vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Slurpuff: 156-185 (50.9 - 60.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
-2 252+ SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Nidoqueen Sludge Wave vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Slurpuff: 257-304 (83.9 - 99.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
At that point, you can boost with CM and OHKO each of those pokes. The Belly drum set is okay, but i think CM is better IMO. The thing that separates slurpuff from PZ or Mismagius is that its not weak to common priority moves like mach punch, vaccuum wave or sucker punch. It doesnt mind Knock Off and resists fighting and bug and immune to dragon. PZ and Mismagius wont be sweeping without team support as well, and the ability to go either physical or special differentiates it from other sweepers. I suppose you could run mixed PZ with download....
-2 252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Nidoking Sludge Wave vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Slurpuff: 252-299 (82.3 - 97.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
-2 252 Atk Life Orb Mienshao Poison Jab vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Slurpuff: 127-151 (41.5 - 49.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
-2 252+ Atk Life Orb Honchkrow Brave Bird vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Slurpuff: 153-183 (50 - 59.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
-2 252 Atk Sheer Force Darmanitan Flare Blitz vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Slurpuff: 153-181 (50 - 59.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
-2 252+ Atk Life Orb Mold Breaker Haxorus Poison Jab vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Slurpuff: 156-185 (50.9 - 60.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
-2 252+ SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Nidoqueen Sludge Wave vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Slurpuff: 257-304 (83.9 - 99.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
At that point, you can boost with CM and OHKO each of those pokes. The Belly drum set is okay, but i think CM is better IMO. The thing that separates slurpuff from PZ or Mismagius is that its not weak to common priority moves like mach punch, vaccuum wave or sucker punch. It doesnt mind Knock Off and resists fighting and bug and immune to dragon. PZ and Mismagius wont be sweeping without team support as well, and the ability to go either physical or special differentiates it from other sweepers. I suppose you could run mixed PZ with download....
I agree that since slurpuff can run both physical and special sets make it more versatile. But that doesn't change the fact that it still requires a hell of a lot of team support and it is going to be dependent on the skill of the player to predict a super effective attack and keep it safe. It is highly dependent on setting up and it is not reliable to revenge anything, especially the belly drum set, since you won't be able to outrun everything until you have that unburden boost.
... This is a rather specific example. Considering how much team support is needed to pull off this particular sweep, I think that's pretty much what C rank is supposed to be.
Slurpuff really has no real way to sweep if you discount it's BD or CM set with a sitrus berry or red card, which is too much, if not completely, dependent on team support. Usually, it's not worth it to use a Pokemon like him when you have Poke's that can sweep with almost no team support at all.
Yeah no shit slurpuff has no real way to sweep if you discount all of its sets. To be honest all slurpuff really needs to sweep is maybe dugtrio support and a free turn (which hydreigon - a.k.a. the best scarfer in the tier - just vomits all over slurpuff). I'm not saying it should move out of C because it's precisely the sort of niche mon the rank was designed for but the arguments you're making are really bad.
Also:
Sigilyph to unlisted - Why would I ever use this over alakazam or reuniclus.
All I was trying to express is that it is not a good sweeper. If you couldn't understand what I said before, I'll simplify it for you: All of slurpuff's existing sets are shit and no one in their right minds would use it when there are other better special and physical sweepers in the tier. I didn't mean that it is unused, all I meant was that it is just not worth a spot on your team unless you want to build a complete team dedicated to helping it sweep.
Or maybe you need a set-up sweeper that checks the shit out of hydreigon and fighting types? Slurpuff has a clearly defined niche in teambuilding and is very usable in uu.
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-uu-18764
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-uu-18764
Here's a couple replays of our co-tier leader sweeping chimpact with teams that aren't necessarily designed around slurpuff sweeps - they are complete teams which include slurpuff because its niche is useful to the team.
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