Yanmega (Full Revamp + Update) +

[RaikouLover]

The rationale for the defense EVs originated back to when Yanmega was OU. For people who used Protect AND Focus Sash you were guarenteed 2 boosts anyway, so there really was no need to max the speed. Yanmega has base 86 HP and 86 physical defense, so it can take a few physical hits, so pumping defense amplifies it. However, it will die to any special attack, so there is no point in splitting the defeneses by just taking on HP. So that physical defense I originally used for some physical protection, as it takes less that 40% from Lucario Extremespeed, can survive a CB Metagross Ice Punch, a Choice Band Weavile Ice Punch / Ice Shard, Scizor LO Bullet Punch is a 3HKO, as is Choice Band Aqua Jet from Azumarill. So on the standard set, since you really don't need to max your speed for reasons I already told you, why not use defense EVs?

 

[Heysup]

The rationale for the defense EVs originated back to when Yanmega was OU. For people who used Protect AND Focus Sash you were guarenteed 2 boosts anyway, so there really was no need to max the speed. Yanmega has base 86 HP and 86 physical defense, so it can take a few physical hits, so pumping defense amplifies it. However, it will die to any special attack, so there is no point in splitting the defeneses by just taking on HP. So that physical defense I originally used for some physical protection, as it takes less that 40% from Lucario Extremespeed, can survive a CB Metagross Ice Punch, a Choice Band Weavile Ice Punch / Ice Shard, Scizor LO Bullet Punch is a 3HKO, as is Choice Band Aqua Jet from Azumarill. So on the standard set, since you really don't need to max your speed for reasons I already told you, why not use defense EVs?

I was referring to LRs comment on the SubPetaya set having 104 Defense EVs. The Substitute set seriously does not need them by any means, imo.

 

[Legacy Raider]

I was referring to LRs comment on the SubPetaya set having 104 Defense EVs. The Substitute set seriously does not need them by any means, imo.

Could the same not be said about the Speed EVs though? Like I alluded in my previous post, you will be outspeeding a scarf Crobat by the time your sub is broken, and the EVs will come in handy if you want to take a hit and attack instead of setting up a sub. The EVs are more beneficial in a defensive stat than just chucking them into Spe for no reason.

 

[cim]

I'd move 80 Def to Speed for Electrode, which isn't unheard of as a lead. Being outsped by it after a boost and being OHKOed by Thunder is not fun.

I'd make different OU and UU sets, as ti needs different EVs and plays differently in each tier. (Then again, I think we should have different analyses for different tiers. Please?)

@Chris is me - Meh, I meant that's the option I was going to choose. xD
SubPetaya, like HeYsUp said, can be a very threatening late-game sweeper. It can use Substitute and the Petaya Berry to gain more power and durability than the Life Orb set.

Yeah not good enough. You're not saying anything at all with this. Your argument literally is "It is a threat". "It uses Substitute to get to low health!", both things I knew already. The issue: Where is 1.5 better than 1.3?

(It's not "more durable", either, as you're trying to get your health to 25%. Also, you get one chance to sweep, you can't come back in later. )

 

[RaikouLover]

I'd move 80 Def to Speed for Electrode, which isn't unheard of as a lead. Being outsped by it after a boost and being OHKOed by Thunder is not fun.

I'd make different OU and UU sets, as ti needs different EVs and plays differently in each tier. (Then again, I think we should have different analyses for different tiers. Please?)

I don't think so... For starters, unless you have HP Ground, Yanmega can't touch Electrode and probably shouldn't try. Plus, Electrode is going to lead to get Rain Dance up, and either way theres nothing you can do to stop THAT (but Electrode is hardly a threatening pokemon for the other 5 members on your team...) There really is absolutely no reason to separate the sets by tiers since they play EXACTLY the same.... Even if you were to use a minor EV change that is simply a matter of a sentence in set comments, not a different set. But in Yanmega's case, all of its sets work and play exactly the same in OU as they do in UU. The only difference is that Psychic is mentioned (which could be Shadow Ball for OU), which is a minor difference at best.

On this set, it is possible to drop Substitute for an additional coverage move (Psychic), and change the item to Life Orb. This makes for a powerful all-out sweeper that does not need turns of set-up to reach its maximum potential. When doing this, the Def EVs become rather obsolete, because they were used mainly for Registeel. Thus, one can dump those EVs into HP, generating an odd number (339) which rounds down Life Orb recoil.</p>

I would eliminate this, since its the set right after it, lol.

 

[Heysup]

Yeah not good enough. You're not saying anything at all with this. Your argument literally is "It is a threat". "It uses Substitute to get to low health!", both things I knew already. The issue: Where is 1.5 better than 1.3?

(It's not "more durable", either, as you're trying to get your health to 25%. Also, you get one chance to sweep, you can't come back in later. )

I dont think anyone wants to find out the "Exact" situations where 1.5 is better than 1.3 (especially since its sweeping a weakened team), but it IS higher.

SubPetaya and LO sets just play differently, one can work with SR, one is serverely fucked over by SR. One has a way to block status, one doesnt. One has 4 coverage moves, and one doesnt. There are differences, but one isnt "better" than the other.

I can attest to both of these sets sweeping quite well late game. I actually prefer the LO set myself, but I have used both.

 

[Seven Deadly Sins]

Actually, I think many people would like to find out the "exact" situations where 1.5 is better than 1.3, because otherwise, why use it?

 

[Heysup]

Actually, I think many people would like to find out the "exact" situations where 1.5 is better than 1.3, because otherwise, why use it?

Sorry I was unclear. What I meant was that it is near irrelevant in the first place, because each set is good at late game sweeping, but they do it differently. They have numerous advantages over eachother, and the 1.5>1.3 may apply to a Pokemon switching into spikes twice, or something completely random like that. The difference isnt just the number.

I also meant I dont think anyone wants to actually go "look for" the differences of the 1.3 vs 1.5 because they are likely completely random and near irrelevant for the amount of work it would be.

Focus on the fact that SubPetaya works as a ...SubPetaya sweeper, and a Life Orb Sweeper works as a basically standard LO sweeper.

 

[jrrrrrrr]

Why is Choice Specs on the "Speed Boost Sweeper" set? The whole point of sweeping is to use different moves so that you dont get walled. Something with that name implies a Life Orb set, with *maybe* a mention of random things like Expert Belt, Leftovers and Petaya Berry in case you switch into SR or take an attack or something. Just mention that Speed Boost is also a useful trait on the Choice Specser and take CSpecs off of the "Speed Boost Sweeper"

 

[Seven Deadly Sins]

Sorry I was unclear. What I meant was that it is near irrelevant in the first place, because each set is good at late game sweeping, but they do it differently. They have numerous advantages over eachother, and the 1.5>1.3 may apply to a Pokemon switching into spikes twice, or something completely random like that. The difference isnt just the number.

I also meant I dont think anyone wants to actually go "look for" the differences of the 1.3 vs 1.5 because they are likely completely random and near irrelevant for the amount of work it would be.

Focus on the fact that SubPetaya works as a ...SubPetaya sweeper, and a Life Orb Sweeper works as a basically standard LO sweeper.

No, I'm pretty sure you're missing the point. SubPetaya requires me to set up for a couple turns and also only works once before its jig is up. Unless there are specific points in time at which Petaya is better than LO, it seems like an inferior option, which is why I want to know "exactly" when SubPetaya is better than LO. What does SubPetaya beat that LO doesn't?

PREEMPTIVE EDIT: You mentioned that sub "blocks status" for Yanmega. However, there are plenty of things wrong with this. First, you would have to sub on the switch for it to be really useful. This means you aren't really "blocking status", just forcing them to hit you. Second, wtf uses status in UU that isn't already either beaten by LOmega or beating it? Chansey is walling you unless you have Reversal, Registeel as well; P2 uses Discharge much of the time, so you aren't blocking that; Mismagius isn't bulky enough to take more than 2 LO Air Slashes; Gardevoir is weak to bug and 2KOed by Bug Buzz; Slowbro is in the same boat as Gardy; Ampharos would rather Discharge you to death; Tomb has to run shitloads of SpD to take 2 LO Modest Bug Buzz. This leaves... Rotom, which isn't even bulky enough to take repeated resisted hits. And all of these things outside of Chansey hate switching into Specs versions. So needless to say, blocking "status" on Yanmega is less useful than it seems.

Also, considering that there are specific numbers produced by 1.5x vs. 1.3x, it's not "completely random" at all. Unless you can provide specific instances where I would rather have to set up for at least one turn than just start hitting shit with Life Orb, I see no reason to even use SubPetaya, let alone recommend it to others.

Also, what's with this line: "This set plays similarly to Empoleon in the OU metagame, and is devastating when used in the right hands." SubPetaya Empoleon and Yanmega play absolutely nothing alike. Empoleon uses Agility to boost, then hits with the force of a SpecsMence Draco Meteor every turn due to Petaya and Torrent. I could see the comparison if Yanmega had something like Swarm, but it doesn't. The difference between LO Yanmega and Petaya Yanmega is .2x. The difference between LO Empoleon and SubPetaya Empoleon is closer to .95x.

 

[cim]

I'm still waiting on what SubPetaya overcomes that Life Orb cannot. The reason Empoleon is Agility Sub Petaya and not Agility Life Orb, for example, is entirely because Torrent Surf beats ridiculous shit like Salamence / Scizor / Skymin with SR and sand in one hit. If all it did was 3% more to everything and didn't beat anything common (such as if it didn't have Torrent) I would never have used it.

So far it seems your argument is "it's worth including because it is different", but there's really no reason to use it as of now. Get some calcs.

While were here, I object to a particular comment:

"This set plays similarly to Empoleon in the OU metagame, and is devastating when used in the right hands."

No it doesn't, not at all. Empoleon uses Torrent, Yanmega doesn't. Empoleon uses the equivalent of Specs Salamence Draco Meteor, but every turn, Yanmega does not. Empoleon resists every priority but Fighting (and the common ones 4x), Yanmega only resists Fighting. The difference between LO Yanmega and this Yanmega is just 1.2x. The difference between LO Empoleon and SubPetaya Empoleon is just under 2x, thanks to Torrent.

They don't play similarly.

 

[pi face]

if the 1.2x difference in power is so irrelevant, why don't any other choice users use Life Orb instead then... ?

i mean, the difference CAN be seen especially when things are weakened and you can KO them when you otherwise couldn't in the same situation with Life Orb.

just leave both sets (sub petaya and speed boost sweeper) since they both work, and let the user decide which one is better for their team.

 

[Seven Deadly Sins]

I'm not saying it's irrelevant, I'm saying that if he's going to say it's good, he needs to provide evidence and actually back things up.

Choice Users generally use CB / CS when they want power and they don't want to lose life all the time, re: Tyranitar, Metagross, etc. Petaya, on the other hand, REQUIRES you to go all in the first time you bring Yanmega out, and ensures that SR or not, Yanmega's decent 86/86 physical defense goes to waste.

Alternately, there are some cases where 1.5x IS better than 1.3x for specific reasons, and having the instant power boost is really beneficial to the Pokemon. Sometimes CB turns 2KOs into OHKOs, 3KOs into 2KOs, etc. Alternately, sometimes there's really no incentive to switch moves (spamming high-powered dragon-type attacks or stuff like Yanmega using Tinted Lens Bug Buzz), in which case a free 1.2x boost is useful.

 

[Heysup]

Ok, please stop ignoring my reasoning and then saying "Im still waiting to be convinced".

As I said, at least 3-4 times, they are just completely different sets.

LO Yanmega:
pros:
-an immediate threat
-can function effectively more than once
-4 coverage moves
-has more HP to work with
cons:
-Is completely fucked over by Stealth Rock
-weak to status

SubPetaya Yanmega:
pros:
-Sub blocks status, and can buy extra attacks the odd time
-has 1.5 power after Petaya
-usable with Stealth Rock
cons:
-only 3 coverage moves
-one shot to sweep
-not an immediate threat
-has to sacrifice its HP to be effective

Personal preference: 1.3 consistant damage vs 1.5 one-time use damage.

I bolded the reasons why SubPetaya deserves its own set. Blocking status from the likes of Registeel is definitely a good thing, and mainly being able to function in SR is the reason the sets are different.

 

[Seven Deadly Sins]

I already laid out why blocking status is pointless, so that argument's shot. Nothing uses status that either beats normally or never beats LO Yanmega (Registeel is kicking your ass either way, whether it's beating on your subs until you die because you can't sweep or paralyzing you), and on top of that, once you have the Petaya Boost, you can't sub any more, which means "blocking status" and "sweeping" are mutually exclusive.

Outside of that, the damage output is basically the only reason you would ever use Petaya over LO. SR is rather irrelevant because it isn't nearly as ubiquitous in this metagame, and Crobat is *very* good at keeping it off the field if you play correctly. On top of that, it's not hard to just focus on spinning, since there are a couple solid spinners in UU, and Yanmega is *immune* to Spikes, a move that is just as common if not more so in UU than SR.

Stop arguing your own random points and actually address why 1.5x damage is worth losing the ability to hit hard multiple times, because this is all I've been asking for the entire time, and it's not something you seem keen on offering.

 

[Heysup]

I already laid out why blocking status is pointless, so that argument's shot. Nothing uses status that either beats normally or never beats LO Yanmega (Registeel is kicking your ass either way, whether it's beating on your subs until you die because you can't sweep or paralyzing you), and on top of that, once you have the Petaya Boost, you can't sub any more, which means "blocking status" and "sweeping" are mutually exclusive.

Outside of that, the damage output is basically the only reason you would ever use Petaya over LO. SR is rather irrelevant because it isn't nearly as ubiquitous in this metagame, and Crobat is *very* good at keeping it off the field if you play correctly. On top of that, it's not hard to just focus on spinning, since there are a couple solid spinners in UU, and Yanmega is *immune* to Spikes, a move that is just as common if not more so in UU than SR.

Stop arguing your own random points and actually address why 1.5x damage is worth losing the ability to hit hard multiple times, because this is all I've been asking for the entire time, and it's not something you seem keen on offering.

I can't beleive you're still dismissing Paralysis and Stealth Rock based on absolutely nothing.

Firstly, the SubPetaya set 2HKOes Registeel (36.81% - 43.41%, a much higher chance than the LO set, if you care) after Spikes + SR, making the Paralysis actually matter. Don't dismiss this point without reason again, please.

Secondly, how can you say Stealth Rock is irrelevant, when it is one of the most commonly used attacks in the game? Crobat isn't flawless at keeping it off the feild with Pokemon such as Regirock carrying it very often.

I'm sorry if the only thing you see is "The only advantage of using this set is that its .2 higher, which probably doesnt matter". But thats really not the case. As I have said before, I'm sure no one wants to take the time to find out the "Exact" times where it matters, because they WILL be completely random with a Pokemon switching into SR, and then SR + SPikes, or something like that.

The findings will likely be irrelevant, and it doesn't matter if they are
relevant because the set has enough reasoning to be used anyway. I'm not the one "arguing random points".

 

[jrrrrrrr]

SubPetaya and LO are both perfectly viable sets, and they are clearly different in nature enough to warrant multiple sets. Why is this pointless debate still going on?

Substitute is for when you are planning on sweeping RIGHT NOW to protect you from para and priority moves. LO is more useful at any point in the match if you just want to hit hard and *maybe* sweep.

Sub is to bring you into Petaya range without having to take an attack. The fact that it protects you from priority and status is just an added bonus. It prevents your opponent from just going "lol i have Registeel" and then destroying your Yanmega since you are dead after 2 SRs + LO recoil.

IMO, there should just be a "Substitute" set for Yanmega because subyanmega is a BITCH to face. Leftovers, Expert Belt and Petaya Berry should be options.

edit- i also wanted to make sure my "remove Specs from Speed Boost Sweeper" comment wasnt lost

 

[Seven Deadly Sins]

After chatting with j7r, I'm with the SubPetaya set being renamed to Substitute, with items Expert Belt, Leftovers, and Petaya Berry. It seems like the most logical idea, it doesn't really step on anyone's toes, and it creates a set that achieves the desired end.

 

[Heysup]

SubPetaya and LO are both perfectly viable sets, and they are clearly different in nature enough to warrant multiple sets. Why is this pointless debate still going on?

Substitute is for when you are planning on sweeping RIGHT NOW to protect you from para and priority moves. LO is more useful at any point in the match if you just want to hit hard and *maybe* sweep.

Sub is to bring you into Petaya range without having to take an attack. The fact that it protects you from priority and status is just an added bonus. It prevents your opponent from just going "lol i have Registeel" and then destroying your Yanmega since you are dead after 2 SRs + LO recoil.

IMO, there should just be a "Substitute" set for Yanmega because subyanmega is a BITCH to face. Leftovers, Expert Belt and Petaya Berry should be options.

edit- i also wanted to make sure my "remove Specs from Speed Boost Sweeper" comment wasnt lost

I pretty much agree with all of this, as I have said these things a couple times myself :P.

I have never used, nor can attest to the viability of Expert Belt or Leftovers, but if they are indeed viable then they should be included on the set by all means. Substitute is definitely worth keeping.

After chatting with j7r, I'm with the SubPetaya set being renamed to Substitute, with items Expert Belt, Leftovers, and Petaya Berry. It seems like the most logical idea, it doesn't really step on anyone's toes, and it creates a set that achieves the desired end.

Almost exactly what I have been trying to say (keeping Sub), but at least there is an agreement now :D.

 

[cim]

I'm still not sold on Sub Anything, especially Sub Petaya. Mainly, Sub does 2 things: Blocks status and activates a berry. But the status blocking doesn't matter as the only things that carry status moves either already beat Yanmega or are beaten by Yanmega.

Yes I am looking for specific instances of Petaya being better. I don't understand why you scoff at this and find it trivial; if you can OHKO and 2HKO the same things with the 6-11 attacks that you get with Life Orb, then "subbing down to Petaya" isn't better.

The Specific Instance you've cited is Registeel with SR and Spikes. Now, for Sub Yanmega it Subs on the switch, activating Petaya. That turn he gets 6% Leftovers, then you hp Ground, 6% leftovers, then HP Ground. So effectively with SR and 1 layer of Spikes it's not a 2HKO, and all Sub does is it forces him to kill you instead of status, but they take the same amount of time for Registeel to do anyway.

With Life Orb you can effectively do "6% more" than it seems since he doesn't let Lefties on the switch in turn, making up the difference.

Sub and Life Orb, with SR in play, are the same; you can still only bring in Yanmega once and you get one shot to sweep. The difference is with Sub petaya you need a turn to set up and with Life Orb you get 6 attacks to do whatever with before you die, assuming you kill everything.

 

[Heysup]

Yes I am looking for specific instances of Petaya being better. I don't understand why you scoff at this and find it trivial; if you can OHKO and 2HKO the same things with the 6-11 attacks that you get with Life Orb, then "subbing down to Petaya" isn't better.

The Specific Instance you've cited is Registeel with SR and Spikes. Now, for Sub Yanmega it Subs on the switch, activating Petaya. That turn he gets 6% Leftovers, then you hp Ground, 6% leftovers, then HP Ground. So effectively with SR and 1 layer of Spikes it's not a 2HKO, and all Sub does is it forces him to kill you instead of status, but they take the same amount of time for Registeel to do anyway.

With Life Orb you can effectively do "6% more" than it seems since he doesn't let Lefties on the switch in turn, making up the difference.

Sub and Life Orb, with SR in play, are the same; you can still only bring in Yanmega once and you get one shot to sweep. The difference is with Sub petaya you need a turn to set up and with Life Orb you get 6 attacks to do whatever with before you die, assuming you kill everything.

Firstly, Registeel is almost always 2HKOed with full Spikes and SR, regardless of leftovers damage. I dont really understand why you are changing the situation to make it seem incorrect, but the situation I stated is correct.

And the reason i'm not calcing everything, and find it trivial, is because thats NOT the main reason to use this set. Substitute is. Substitute eases prediction, activates a Petaya Berry to sweep late game, blocks status from Registeel (this is valid, no matter how you want to say it) and various other Pokemon (Regirock might not want to risk the Rock Slide miss, or something), it allows you to get the boost without taking a hit, functions with SR, etc...the list goes on. I have repeated these reasons why the Substitute set should, and will stay. The Calculations are irrelevant to the topic at hand: Keeping Substitute as a set, because there is already enough reason to do this.

The main reason we are keeping Sub: Its DIFFERENT than LO, not "better", not "worse".

 

[cim]

Firstly, Registeel is almost always 2HKOed with full Spikes and SR, regardless of leftovers damage. I dont really understand why you are changing the situation to make it seem incorrect, but the situation I stated is correct.

Keyword: "Full spikes and SR". When does that ever actually happen? Does Life Orb not accomplish this?

And the reason i'm not calcing everything, and find it trivial, is because thats NOT the main reason to use this set. Substitute is. Substitute eases prediction, activates a Petaya Berry to sweep late game,

The reason to use Petaya Berry over life orb is power (and no recoil but Sub makes up for that) so you're contradicting yourself. Easing prediction is worth considering,

blocks status from Registeel (this is valid, no matter how you want to say it)

Saying "This is valid" doesn't make it so.

So you bring in Yanmega, then you Sub as Registeel comes in to block the status. So it attacks you twice. If you use Life Orb, when does Registeel have time to status you? Can you post a log so I understand how it works?

and various other Pokemon (Regirock might not want to risk the Rock Slide miss, or something),

lol why would regirock give yanmega another turn to attack ?

it allows you to get the boost without taking a hit, functions with SR, etc...the list goes on. I have repeated these reasons why the Substitute set should, and will stay.

Yeah, I completely understood them, then replied to the main ones. Instead of addressing my retorts, you're largely repeating yousrself, saying "it is because it is", etc. That's not really how debate works.

The Calculations are irrelevant to the topic at hand: Keeping Substitute as a set, because there is already enough reason to do this.

My argument, which you're making me repeat, again, is that half of the reasons aren't really valid and thus we should have calcs. Just saying "They're irrelavent, you don't need to hear them you're wrong lol" doesn't convince me to use the set or support it. Repeatedly telling me that it's "irrelavent" isn't exactly going to make me go "oh ok how much damage a pokemon does in battle is unimportant"

The main reason we are keeping Sub: Its DIFFERENT than LO, not "better", not "worse".

"Being Different" has nothing to do with whether or not something is "viable". In my opinion, if a Life Orb set is better, Sub Petaya isn't viable because it is outclassed. The main valid argument against this is "easing prediction"

 

[Heysup]

Keyword: "Full spikes and SR". When does that ever actually happen? Does Life Orb not accomplish this?

Like, often? It definitely happens enough from my experience, and its either easier or harder depending on the team-type, and the Spiker of choice, obviously. For example, Cloyster can easily set up spikes against Steelix and Crobat leads, but its harder against Roserade leads.

The reason to use Petaya Berry over life orb is power (and no recoil but Sub makes up for that) so you're contradicting yourself. Easing prediction is worth considering,

Its ONE reason, not the most important reason. Easing prediction is one of the main reasons. I dont see any contradiction.

Saying "This is valid" doesn't make it so.

So you bring in Yanmega, then you Sub as Registeel comes in to block the status. So it attacks you twice. If you use Life Orb, when does Registeel have time to status you? Can you post a log so I understand how it works?

I said its valid because I calced and proved it, and you tried to shove it aside and say its invalid :(.

Anyway, I constructed a log for you to understand. I accidentaly switched Registeel in to set up SR previously, so its taken 6% damage (from a layer). So it started with 94%, but thats more than likely the case than full HP. Either way, here it is:

HeYhEy switched in Registeel (lvl 100 Registeel).
Registeel was hurt by Spikes!
Registeel lost 25% of its health.
Pointed stones dug into Registeel.
Registeel lost 6% of its health.
Yanmega used Substitute.
Yanmega lost 25% of its health.
Yanmega made a substitute!
Yanmega's Petaya Berry raised its special attack!
Registeel's leftovers restored its health a little!
Registeel restored 6% of its health.
Yanmega's Speed Boost raised its speed!
---
Yanmega used Hidden Power.
It's super effective!
Registeel lost 42% of its health.
Registeel used Iron Head.
The substitute took damage for Yanmega!
Yanmega's substitute faded!
Registeel's leftovers restored its health a little!
Registeel restored 6% of its health.
Yanmega's Speed Boost raised its speed!
---
Yanmega used Hidden Power.
It's super effective!
Registeel lost 32% of its health.
HeYhEy's Registeel fainted.
Yanmega's Speed Boost raised its speed!
---

Either way, 42%x2=84%, and Registeel switching in with 100% HP, would be at 75% after leftovers, and then +6% from leftovers again (81%), so it would faint either way (84%>69%+6%+6%).

lol why would regirock give yanmega another turn to attack ?

I answered this...

and various other Pokemon (Regirock might not want to risk the Rock Slide miss, or something),

Yeah, I completely understood them, then replied to the main ones. Instead of addressing my retorts, you're largely repeating yousrself, saying "it is because it is", etc. That's not really how debate works.

Im saying "it is because I have proven so". You are saying "Im not convinced", thus forcing me to repeat myself :(.

My argument, which you're making me repeat, again, is that half of the reasons aren't really valid and thus we should have calcs. Just saying "They're irrelavent, you don't need to hear them you're wrong lol" doesn't convince me to use the set or support it. Repeatedly telling me that it's "irrelavent" isn't exactly going to make me go "oh ok how much damage a pokemon does in battle is unimportant"

Because you want to hear the Calcs of LO vs SubPetaya, which will be barely different (though it actually it increases your chance to KO few Pokemon, such as Crobat and previously mentioned Registeel which have already been calced). Im saying the damage difference IS NOT the reason for the SubPetaya set to stay. And you keep saying "but i want to see the calcs", really who is the one making this go in circles?

"Being Different" has nothing to do with whether or not something is "viable". In my opinion, if a Life Orb set is better, Sub Petaya isn't viable because it is outclassed. The main valid argument against this is "easing prediction"

There are many valid arguments that i have said over and over, not just easing prediction. IMO Life Orb is better as well, but SubPetaya is different and better in different ways than LO. They are both viable, as even SDS agrees on (and if me and SDS agree...well you know).

I dont think this needs to go much further. If you really think the calcs matter so much, by all means show us that the .2 does nothing, and the Substitute will STILL stay on the set, because that isnt the reason its more / less viable than LO. Substitute is staying (by general consensus) because of reasons unrelated to the damage difference.

 

[Mrobinson587]

I don't get why the subpetya has so much resistance. I think you are being difficult for the sake of being difficult. Its not like registeel or doesn't have counters or ways to get rid of it (Magenton) or there isn't the chance that it will having taken damage throughout the battle to the point where it could be 2HKOd

Edit: Chansey also can get countered by trapinch so there are two almost guaranteed ways to take out the subpetyas counters

 

[Draco Zephyr]

Sorry I didn't have time to update; been busy lately. As jrrrrr said, there's no need for a full-blown debate here. I finally did some calcs to compare LO and SubPetaya, and here they are.

These calcs deal with the Pokemon that might want to switch into Yanmega (barring Chansey, who cannot be dealt with without Reversal):

SubPetaya HP Ground vs. 252 HP / 168 SpD Registeel - 37.36% - 43.96% (clean 3HKO)
LO HP Ground vs. 252 HP / 168 SpD Registeel - 32.69% - 38.46% (negligible difference)
SubPetaya HP Ground vs. 252 HP / 220 SpD Regirock - 47.80% - 56.32% (high 2HKO chance)
LO HP Ground vs. 252 HP / 220 SpD Regirock - 41.76% - 49.18% (falls just short of a 2HKO)
SubPetaya HP Ground vs. max HP / max SpD Steelix - 62.43% - 73.45% (easy win)
LO HP Ground vs. max HP / max SpD Steelix - 54.52% - 64.12% (no real difference)


SubPetaya Air Slash vs. 168 HP Crobat - 64.02% - 75.35% (slight chance of OHKO w/ Stealth Rock damage)
LO Air Slash vs. 168 HP Crobat - 55.81% - 65.72% (significant difference)
SubPetaya Air Slash vs. 4 HP Crobat - 72.44% - 85.26% (very high chance of OHKO w/ Stealth Rock damage)
LO Air Slash vs. 4 HP Crobat - 63.14% - 74.36% (just misses the OHKO mark)

Both sets have their merit. SubPetaya edges out LO when it comes to Crobat, and manages to beat out Regirock as well. However, this is at the price of multiple turns of setup. The LO set can come in and hit hard right off the bat; while missing out on a few KOs. However, their playstyle is very different and, thus, they both deserve their own sets.

I'll probably change the name to Substitute, but write the other items in a different paragraph, not slash them in.