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Your Thoughts on Hazards in General

Discussion in 'BW UU' started by hilarious, Dec 23, 2012.

  1. hilarious

    hilarious

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    Hazards have an important role in UU, especially Stealth Rock and Spikes while Toxic Spikes is probably going to emerge much more viable than ever before because it works so well with defensive hail. Hazards are probably the only reason why people haven't demanded Zapdos or Darmanitan to be suspected yet and is really one of the only reasons guys like Chandelure are allowed to stay in this (totally unbalanced) tier.

    They are the reason why you cannot use Focus Sash on everything.

    So let's talk about them, specifically which hazard setters are you using to get hazards and what are your anti hazard measures? I don't think anyone is going to dispute SR is the best hazard or that every team should use SR (but if you want go for it).

    I've seen a SR Krookodile which really, I suppose, messes up with teams that rely on Xatu to bounce hazards back and in general it gives Krookodile a way to be more useful (although the spinners have an easy time against Krookodile). I've been toying around with SR Bisharp myself although I generally find Bisharp has better things to do with free turns (like setting up a gamebreakign sweep). Seen any other weird SR users? Spikes users are generally quite predictable but responses to Spikes Crustle would be very different than Shell Smash Crustle.

    Then of course there are teams that do not need anti hazard measures at all because they just have lots of Pokemon that don't care about hazards (Flygon, Bronzong); what are some characteristics of those teams? And then an extension to that question, which Pokemon absolutely need SR support? Let's move beyond "omg Yanmega needs a spinner" please, I think we all know that the majority of Yanmega teams will need some anti SR support.

    Lastly I want to talk about which Pokemon could be used in UU if it weren't for hazards and then let's try and use them with heavy anti hazard support to see what happens. I'm attracted to Archeops right now...I don't think anything with those stats can be useless (unless you put on Slow Start).

    I think those are plenty of discussion points for us to work on hopefully we'll get new ideas from this thread. edit: and come on guys we need more threads anyways or else nu and ru will have more threads than us -.-
  2. silenced

    silenced

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    Ah sash leads, how I despise thee.

    I don't really like sash leads myself. The though of a pokemon slot used solely to support and die is something I just don't like (my preference being such pokemon should be useful as often during the game as possible). Some, like the krookodile example you posted, are certainly good for a nasty surprise, and work because they are not expected. Despite the success of such sets, the problem I figure with sash leads like frosslass and azelf are that they can easily be identified as a sash lead and thus played around accordingly. Either a combination of volt-switching to break the sash and have them waste a turn with taunt, xatu, or simply sacking a poke to prevent the spike layers works fine, short of using a stall team, who will make time to spin the hazards anyway. Azelf is even worse if your opponent has something to tank explosion, as it's not nearly as likely to kill something as froslass is.

    I've tried SR bisharp myself and I'd agree entirely with what you have said. It's better off getting investment into its sucker punching from SD, as it just doesn't hit hard enough with it otherwise.

    Unless you play stall, or are using a team with either darmanitan/arcanine/yanmega, I would not consider spinning important. I think the current crop of spinners simply don't work because they are simply too easily taken advantage of by lack of recovery, being set up on (exclude blastoise here), or simply have hazards reset in their face because they cannot beat the hazard setter (e.g roserade) Anything else SR weak should be able to accomplish its job before it dies to residual damage (e.g specs chandelure ripping holes into teams). As for spikes...well you can let them set up 3 layers, or you can stop them from doing so. Pick one.

    The last team I ran, before scrapping it due to a mew and meloetta weakness I could not think of how to patch up, only had zapdos as SR weak, and I was quite happy not to run a spinner just for it (yes that was taking a huge risk against stone edge from heracross, but so be it, there are other ways to kill the bug (such shame I use aerial ace on flygon)). It just makes it so much easier when you don't need to consider the problem of hazards, that it doesn't seem worth it to make a heavily hazard weak team that is forced to rely on spin.

    As for the last point, even with hazards, I'd hate to be facing archeops anyway, as those dual stabs will hurt like hell regardless for at least 2 switches if they have their IV's right, and even then you could always do some gimmick with endeavour to weaken things (apparently such a set was listed in OU's creative movethread).

    I suppose the overall point I'd like to make is that I think SR/Spikes do cripple things, some considerably, but it is possible to play around it, or usually anyway. Entry hazard removal does help, but its just such a hassle that most pokemon who do this are badly flawed (yes even you blastoise).
  3. RabidChipmunk

    RabidChipmunk

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    I personally have been using a tank Nidoqueen for my Stealth Rocking purposes. She has a massive amount of firepower behind her, beats every Rapid Spinner one-on-one with the exception of Blastioise (and even then it's close), and also serves as a check to Heracross (you wanna talk about unbalanced...). She does have a nasty tendency to get worn out to quickly, unfortunately, but there's nothing that plays the role of an offensive-bulky-hazard setter quite like she does.

    I wouldn't even say Yanmega always needs spinner support. You should always have it, but if something happens to it, Yanmega can still use Giga Drain (assuming your opponent has a Giga Drain-able target) and recover up lost health. You just have to make sure you never switch it back out again. Choice Specs, Tinted Lens Yanmega can also function with a lost spinner, since it's great at coming in and breaking down walls until it dies. You should obviously never have Yanmega on your team without some kind of anti-hazard support, but if you lose your spinner/Magic Bouncer, Yanmega still has a chance to shine.

    Aside from the obvious, I'd say Darmanitan and Victini are the UU Pokemon most in need of Spinner support. They tend to switch out a lot, and they are easily worn down (doubly so for Darmanitan, who constantly wears himself out through repeated Flare Blitzes). SR only compounds these issues.

    I'm not a fan of SR Krookodile or SR Bisharp. Krookodile would rather be sweeping and Bisharp would rather be wishing it was RU.

    My biggest problem with Archeops is there are too many things in UU that are commonly Scarf'd (since everything is trying to outspeed Heracross and everything else is trying to outspeed the things that outspeed Heracross). Archeops is fast, but it's not faster than the most common Scarfers, and most of them will murder Archeops with their Close Combats, Rock Slides, Bolt Strikes and Hi Jump Kicks, thanks in part to Archeops' excessive frailty. Couple this with a, you guessed it, nasty SR weakness, and Archeops' only chance to sweep is if you either remove everything Scarf'd on your opponents team, or if you Choice Scarf your own Archeops, which then ruins it's best Flying-type move in Acrobatics.

    Of course, satisfy all those criteria, and Archeops is going to have a ball. I'd hate to be on the team opposing it at that point.
  4. DestinyUnknown

    DestinyUnknown in other words...
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    Hazards are pretty good, as always... Spinners aren't really needed most of the time though, and unless you're using a lot of pokemon weak to Stealth Rock and your team is switching a lot (yeah stuff like Specs Zapdos, Victini and Darmanitan are the best examples of this) a spinner is usually not worth. Spikes are dangerous but not that common and Spikes settler aren't that good atm (besides Froslass I guess).

    As for pokemon that would be used more... I suppose Moltres would be used much more in UU if it weren't for Stealth Rock, as it would need much less support and it would actually be worth using. Other examples are Archeops, Honchkrow and Yanmega (yeah, I mentioned 2 UU pokemon!) because they're very good but their usage is hindered by Stealth Rock as they need more support to use and you can't slap them on any team. Speaking of Archeops, it could be worth trying some sort of Offensive Stealth Rock set now that it gets it!
  5. Warb

    Warb

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    It'd be exaggerated to say that hazards play a key role when I play UU but there are still some priorities during a match that I have to consider everytime:

    1. How defensive (read: stallish) does my opponent's team look? If I see stuff like Froslass, Gligar, Snorlax, Slowbro/king and friends, I know for a fact that I want to keep hazards off the field for as long as possible.

    2. If the opposing team is clearly not stall-oriented, how many of his Pokemon can potentially set up rocks? I have 2 SR weaks on my team, one of which is Crobat who needs to be alive at all times until the very late game.

    3. Is it worthwhile to set up rocks myself? My SR setter is SDef Rhyperior, who can take hits good enough, but often finds itself in 2 or 3HKO range because pretty much every single offensively oriented pokemon has at least one super effective move against rhyperior. if there are pokemon on the opposing team from which I know that I can bring them into OHKO range with rocks, I usually try to get them up.

    4. Getting rocks spun away is not necessarily bad. I don't have a spinblocker on my team, which means that everytime my opponent brings his spinner in, he can freely remove my SR from the field. BUT, at the same time, being forced to spin means giving the opponent a free turn. To take an example from my team: Blastoise means 100% safe switch-in for Shaymin while Intimidate Hitmontop means a more or less 100% safe switch-in for Crobat. Getting my rocks spun away is not that much of a setback for me as long as I can get precious momentum on my side.
  6. Notelobo

    Notelobo

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    I would first like to concur with the previous posts in saying that Hazards are not as big of a force as they once were in the tier. Spike stacking used to be something you ran into every other team while on the simulator (Exaggeration but you understand my point). Some of the big factors that have contributed to hazards down fall are as such.

    1. The number of pokemon that simply are not hurt by spikes and toxic spikes. With levitate users and flying types running around the tier with such frequency that it is hard to find a team without one (Bronzong, Flygon, Azelf, Cresselia, Tornadus, Honchcrow, Crobat, Gligar, and Zapdos to name a few) and the number of Pokemon that are immune to toxic spikes (The already aforementioned Pokemon with the addition of Roserade, The Nido Royalty, and all the steel types) these two forms of hazards simply aren't as useful as they once were. They just can't hurt all of the members of a team as hard as they should.

    2. Stealth Rock damage is not a always a huge worry for the Pokemon weak to it. Now I am not downplaying the importance of Stealth Rock as a move or as a hazard. If there is any move that can be pointed at and called entirely game changing it is that one. But the Pokemon in the UU tier that are weak to it sometimes don't have any problems loosing that 25% before nuking whatever you are using. Silenced made a great example of this above in Spec Chandelure. It honestly can deal without that 25% and still hurt your team. Now Stealth Rocks are an amazing hazard that helps to put many pokemon into OHKO or 2HKO range of many sweepers so of all the hazards in UU it is why this one is the most prevalent and beneficiary and it most likely the the biggest reason why Spinners continue to be used (That and Blastoise has nothing to do with its 4th move slot so why now?!?!)

    3. The last sentence of point 2 cleanly leads me into my last point. Rapid Spin pokemon are useful outside of that one move and it is sometimes added as a move slot filler. As a personal example of this I am running a Hitmontop on my trick room team. With the teams weakness to Dark type attacks and such it really needed a fighting type. The spinner fit into the team without the quality of it being able to spin, it was more of a bonus than anything else. This is the same with Blastoise. You want a bulky water with phazing capabilities? Swampert just not your cup of tea? Well than you run Blastoise, you put on Roar, Scald most likely, now you need two fillers. Rapid Spin? Why not!?! Thus many teams gain a random rapid spinner who is really just making itself more useful even when the team doesn't need rapid spin support. So the ease with which many rapid spinners fit onto teams makes it much harder for stall teams or spike stacking teams to find an opponent that doesn't have a rapid spinner to stop them.

    For these reasons Hazards have stopped being as metagame shaping UU as they used to be. They are still a threat for the unprepared team but they are not something that needs to be at the forefront of every players mind.
  7. Metal Sonic

    Metal Sonic Turn it up!
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    tl;dr,

    I don't like hazards, I only set up stealth rocks as a bonus on my rhyperior, and I don't have a spinner. The UU spinners suck.

    3/6 of my mons receive resisted damage from SR, only one receives 25%

    2/6 of my mons are levitators/fliers and dgaf about spikes

    4/6 of my mons(the two above, included) dgaf about toxic spikes

    Therefore idgaf about hazards in general

    Rocks are only good to put on opponent's team for crobat/Victinis/Zapdoses/Yanmegas and some other select fews
  8. hilarious

    hilarious

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    if you want tl;dr go to cap hehe they truly have diarrhea of the hand

    So i read all of these posts and all of us love hazards as usual except metal sonic who sees them as a bonus which is probably why your teams have large weaknesses - sr is not just a bonus my friend, it is an easy and strong way to limit insane attackers like zapdos and darmanitan and is the only reliable way to consistently punish switching. I assume your teams have large weaknesses because I would go as far to say that SR is necessary on all teams in UU. Metal Sonic you heavily underestimate SR's utility if you think its only good to damage a few select pokemon weak to it, for instance even on Flygon sr will be useful so CB Crobat has a strong chance to OHKO instead of a shaky chance. Setting up SR means Arcanine can now OHKO Sharpedo with Extremespeed after one turn of lo so you can save one more Pokemon.

    Whats not necessary you guys have said is a spinner, but throughout my original post I tried to stay away from that term since there are other ways to stop hazards from getting up - i call this anti hazard support. Beond the obvious rapid spin and xatu support (and frankly xatu is only mediocre at stopping sr from getting up) you can use in my opinion two other methods to semireliably make sure hazards dont get up.

    Firstly is using surprises, for instance just a few months ago leading with beat up ambipom meant no spikes on your field if your opponent lead with froslass. Plenty of people have caught on now but on PO this still works perfectly. I have also toyed around with using Specs Zoroark which can use Gknot on two of the best sr setters for the ohko and if you for instance lead with Kingdra there is no chance your opponent is switching their swampert out. Of course this method is semireliable at best since guys like Bronzong will probably get their hazards up still so you want to keep that in mind.

    The second method is keeping up pressure. It is not impossible to make a team where your opponent can find almost no time to set up sr, if for some reason you wanted to use a special ho team just for arguments sake you probably wouldn't be able to set up sr with your rhyperior all game.

    Warb you make a good point in saying how using RS loses momentum for your opponent but that can be easily regained if you have to be switching in something like Shaymin into blastoise. Shaymin has plenty of hard counters right now, crobat is a big one and you basically lose hazards after turn one and then you lose momentum after turn 2. unless you're using a very strong attacing team i'm not so sure using no ghost at all is the best idea if you're using sr, and its definitely not a great idea if you're using spikes too.
  9. Warb

    Warb

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    Yep, you're definitely right on that part. I'm pretty glad not that many people on the ladder use Crobat (for whatever reason). I have been able to avoid such situations simply because there is a suprising lack of Crobat usage in the ladder games that I play :P

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