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Zangoose

Discussion in 'BW UU' started by Silvershadow234, Jul 23, 2012.

  1. Silvershadow234

    Silvershadow234 :]]]]]
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    Zangoose
    [​IMG]
    Zangoose has been blessed in the transition to BW2, and has received his new ability-Toxic Boost. This acts much like Guts or a Choice Band, but instead he has to rely on Toxic Orb instead.​

    This gives Zangoose even more power, and a ridiculously powerful Facade. Just to show, it does 66%-78% to physically defensive Zapdos, and 44%-52% on the most physically bulky Pokemon in the tier-Gligar. So after SR, he annihalates pretty much every wall in the tier scoring a 2HKO on Gligar-something Heracross can only dream about. Couple this with powerful priority in Quick Attack and great coverage moves in Shadow Claw/Night Slash and Close Combat, and you have one of the best physical wallbreakers in the tier.​

    However, he's not without his shortcomings. He is very easily revenge killed by threats like Flygon and Mienshao, and has a very short number of turns to live, which makes Spin support almost necessary. Despite this though, Zangoose is an incredibly powerful threat, and definitely has his plus points over other wallbreakers like Heracross(who can't break through Gligar), as well as powerful STAB priority.​


    All-out attacker
    4hp, 252att, 252spe-Toxic Orb-Jolly-Toxic Boost
    -Quick Attack
    -Facade
    -Close Combat
    -Shadow Claw​

    This is Zangoose's cleaner set, and boy is he good at it. Facade is an incredibly powerful move, hammering some of the very best walls in the tier like Gligar, Slowbro, physically defensive Suicune and Arcanine after Stealth Rock support. Close Combat and Shadow Claw provide coverage against Rock and Steel types like Bronzong and Registeel(Bronzong is 3HKO'd, while Registeel is 2HKO'd), as well as ghost types like Mismagius and Dusclops, although it only lands a 4HKO on Dusclops(only 1 hit for Mismagius though).​

    This set greatly benefits from Spin support-as hazards and Toxic Orb residual damage really starts to add up. All three of the main spinners(Claydol, Hitmontop and Blastoise) synergise nicely with Zangoose-but Hitmontop lacks the ability to break through ghost types like Chandelure and Mismagius. Claydol is immune to ground, and resists Zangoose's one weakness-but again, has difficulty getting off the spin. Blastoise is the only spinner that beats all ghost types, which makes him the better choice. Stealth Rock of your own is crucial to getting many key KO's on the likes of Arcanine and Rhyperior. Bronzong is a good choice-countering many of Zangoose's top revenge killers like Flygon. Finally, a ghost type is a good idea to counter oposing fighter's like Scarf Heracross and Mienshao. Mismagius is immune to ground and fighting, and enjoys setting up on the likes of Hitmontop-who can Intimidate him or create a lot of pain with Mach Punch. Even despite Shadow Claw, a Pursuit user is helpful so that he can use Facade without having to worry. Krookodile, Houndoom and Snorlax are some of the best Pursuit users in the tier-and the latter two are capable of switching in on Chandelure.​

    Wallbreaker
    4hp, 252att, 252spe-Toxic Orb-Jolly/Adamant-Toxic Boost
    -Swords Dance
    -Facade
    -Close Combat
    -Shadow Claw
    After a Swords Dance, Zangoose reaches over 1000 attack-and the ability to shred pretty much every physical wall in the tier. Dusclops? 2HKO'd with SR up, likely 2HKO even without. Gligar? Nearly a 1HKO with SR up. Bronzong? 2HKO. As you can see then, Zangoose has some pretty ridiculous power.​

    A positive nature is much more useful on this set. On the other, the extra speed over the likes of Specs Rotom-H and SD Heracross was one of the major selling points-but this set aims to break open walls, and the extra power can come in very handy to hit some Pokemon harder, for instance a 1HKO on Arcanine even without Stealth Rock, as well as a guarenteed 1HKO on physically defensive Suicune.​

    Some possible team mates would be ones that can supply Stealth Rock, and clean up after Zangoose has decimated their physical wall. Choice Scarf Heracross is a good example of this, as is Moxie Honchkrow. Both really appreciate Zangoose breaking physical walls-while Honchkrow can use Pursuit to take on ghost types that trouble Zangoose. Once again, spin support is very valuable so that Zangoose doesn't die on the very first turn, and Blastoise is probably the best one. ​


    Checks and Counters

    Nothing really can counter the SD set, but there are a few that counter the all-out attacker set. Bronzong and Dusclops are two of the best counters-although all Dusclops can do is Seismic Toss. Bronzong can hit him hard with Gyro Ball though. ​

    Often, revenge killing Zangoose is much easier than countering the SD set, and without Quick Attack, there are plenty-too many to list in fact. Finally, fast ghost types like Mismagius are certainly some of the best checks though-immune to Quick Attack, Facade and Close Combat. ​
  2. Iridium

    Iridium

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    I like to run SD/Facade/Quick Attack/CC with pursuit support for ghosts
    doesn't work well against dusclops though
  3. FlareBlitz

    FlareBlitz This was never a story that would have a happy end
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    I am actually incredibly impressed by Zangoose' sheer power after doing some calcs. 252/0 Cofag is ohko'd by +2 Shadow Claw, Gligar is ohko'd by +2 Facade (!) and by extension so is literally every other physical wall in the tier that is neutral to normal attacks (Slowbro, Suicune, etc). The biggest problem is choosing between whether you want to hit ghosts, rocks and steels, or prevent revenge killers from having an easy time. Zangoose' Quick Attack is pretty powerful at +2, so it's definitely an important contender, especially when you realize that +2 Adamant Quick Attack has a 50% chance of ohkoing Scarfcross after SR. Speaking of that, Adamant v. Jolly is actually a pretty important decision. Facade definitely doesn't need any more power, but Quick Attack definitely does, as does its coverage.

    Zangoose could be pretty intriguing as a dedicated stallbreaker / late game cleaner. I'll have to try it.
  4. spuds4ever

    spuds4ever

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    Zangoose definitely has potential in UU. Having extremely powerful STAB priority I think can be really dangerous in a meta-game full of choice scarfers.

    I think it's all-out attacking set will be its most dangerous, especially when you consider how hard it will be to set up. You still hit ghosts and steels and you can still clean up offensive pokemon with a deadly quick attack. I think this ferret here will be a cleaner to watch out for and could bring some interesting change to things like moxie scarfcross which I see will be booming in popularity soon (if it hasn't happened already).
  5. Cherub Agent

    Cherub Agent Yeah, well. The Dude abides
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    I find the all-out attacker to easily be the best set, simply because Zangoose really relies on Quick Attack to stop itslef from being revenge killed. Although I might test the SD set with a Pursuit user for Ghosts, the problem wih the set in the lower tiers is that Zangoose has basically no opportunity to actually set up a SD. I imagine this will be even harder in UU where everything hits harder

    One of the best ways to activate Toxic Orb is just revenge kill a 25% Pokemon with quick attack, and then the orb activates on the following turn.

    Although ironically, while Quick attack is excellent for Zangoose, if it runs Shadow Claw it is an excellent Ghostbuster, as it's immune to both burn and their STAB
  6. Sewa

    Sewa

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    Mh? Aren't U-turn and Volt Switch the best methods for him to activate orb? In NU I play a slow Eelektross with U-turn that helps me activate orbs for my flareon and zangoose. I think something similar can be used in UU.
  7. Cherub Agent

    Cherub Agent Yeah, well. The Dude abides
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    I said "one of the best". I didn't run a slow Volt Switch/U-Turn, and my method works fine too
  8. Sewa

    Sewa

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    My bad, I misread "the best method" =_=
  9. Silvershadow234

    Silvershadow234 :]]]]]
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    It's not that difficult to set-up though. Most people will see Zangoose and go to their physical wall if they have a weakened team, so you SD on the switch and decimate everything with a 140bp +2 Facade with an attack stat of over 1000. He does have severe 4MSS yes, but is a properly dangerous threat. I've been using the all-out attack set and that really does shred teams once the Toxic Orb kicks in. The SD set is arguably the best physical wallbreaker in the tier-as every wall is 1/2HKO'd by him, as opposed to SD Heracross who can't break through Gligar.
  10. hilarious

    hilarious

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    Ursaring with Quick Feet can run the same SD set with much less power and a little more speed (and base 80 power Dark Crunch for the same coverage and more base power than base 70 power Ghost Shadow Claw). That seems less than pleasant, for the Ursaring user at least, but a quick glance at base speeds (never really understood speed tiers when you can just look at base speed, or if there is even a difference) and damage calcs show that it is usually a good trade off. You still OHKO everything that is not a physical wall after an SD boost including bulky things like Shaymin, Arcanine with Intimidate even without hazard support. You can take out Slowbro and even Gligar in two hits still so although you do less damage than Zangoose it basically is the difference of doing only 110% instead of 150% on random crap.

    The increase in speed is welcome though because it actually makes a difference, being able to take out speedy opponents like Zapdos before they can touch you and even Mismagius is totally awesome, the SD set can now be used as not only a wall breaker because you have awesome power still but now a (theoretically) effective cleaner.

    You also have considerably better bulk of 90/75/75 a drastic increase from 73/60/60. This lets you take things like an Earthquake from Gligar or a Fake Out from Mienshao more competently.

    But why even mention Mienshao using priority which outspeeds and beats Zangoose but not Ursaring? This is because I think Zangoose can take on Mienshao too actually if it just uses Quick Attack on the SD set. No longer is it (again in theory) outclassed by SD Quick feet Ursaring rather it can beat a whole new list of threats. Things like Scarf Darmanitan and non-Scarf Raikou which Ursaring could not dream of outspeeding even after a +1 boost are now fairly easily revenged kill after a SD and Toxic Boost Poisoning.

    Essentially if your team is weak to fast threats or your team cannot effectively eliminate them before a sweep then Zangoose should be used over Ursaring, with Quick Attack probably over Shadow Claw, maybe close Combat, and possibly if you feel gutsy over Facade (yeah thats probably just stupid though). Otherwise I think Ursaring just completely outclasses Zangoose if both use SD.
  11. Silvershadow234

    Silvershadow234 :]]]]]
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    That's actually quite a good point Hilarious. Night Slash is only really useful against ghosts on the SD set(even a super-effective Night Slash is actually out-powered by Facade), and can't break through physical Cofagrigus(I forgot to take Mummy into account. A SD boosted Quick Attack could prove to be his strong point through. I think that it would really benefit from full Spikes and SR support though-to 1HKO the likes of Heracross and Darmanitan.
  12. MX42

    MX42

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    Personally, the Ursaring vs Zangoose debate is an interesting one, sine both have different roles. Zangoose works far better as a wallbreaker/late game cleaner, while Ursaring works better as a sweeper. Overall, I prefer Ursaring because while it wont demolish everything in its path, its speed is a nice bonus.

    Also, is this strategy viable in RU?
  13. Antihaxxer

    Antihaxxer

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    And what's the difference between a Sweeper and a Cleaner ? -_-
  14. Aurora

    Aurora am checking again lol!
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    This is better off being asked in the SQSA thread.

    Sweepers are Pokemon who attempt to destroy as much of the opponent's team as possible on their own, usually those carrying boosting moves or something that boosts a predominant attacking stat. A typical example would be Calm Mind Raikou.

    Cleaners are Pokemon which do just that: when an opponent's team is weakened, low on health, and down some Pokemon, the cleaner is sent out to "clean" up whatever remains of the opponent's team. A typical example would be Choice Specs Kingdra.
  15. cim

    cim happiness is such hard work
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    Is SD Zangoose really better than SD Heracross? It just seems like it has worse typing, worse Attack, and worse coverage for the same potential. Really, any hype for Toxic Orb Zangoose seems misplaced to me mainly because Toxic Orb Heracross isn't ruining the metagame already.
  16. Silvershadow234

    Silvershadow234 :]]]]]
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    Both Zangoose and Ursaring are very viable in RU, and Zangoose is very, very good in RU as ShakeItUp has shown.

    @Cim: Zangoose isn't completely outclassed by Heracross. For one, Zangoose can 2HKO Gligar after a boost, and if you forego Night Slash for Quick Attack then he makes a great late game cleaner as well as wallbreaker. Then he is able to do significant damage to faster threats like Raikou and Darmanitan after hazard damage. He does need a lot of team support to get that SD up, but once he does he can cause a lot of damage.
  17. cim

    cim happiness is such hard work
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    Heracross does the same thing with SD Facade + Toxic Orb, basically I was trying to compare SD Heracross to SD Zangoose

    That's totally legititmate, in the specific niche of both beating Gligar and faster offensive threats. It's worth noting that neither Heracross nor Zangoose can beat all three of Gligar, bulky Ghosts, and faster Pokemon - both only get two of three with their respective sets.

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