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Zapdos [Classic SubRoost and Offensive SubRoost] [GP 2/2]

Discussion in 'Uploaded Analyses' started by LonelyNess, Feb 8, 2013.

  1. LonelyNess

    LonelyNess PK FLASH
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    [​IMG]
    bird

    [SET]
    name: Classic SubRoost
    move 1: Substitute
    move 2: Roost
    move 3: Thunderbolt
    move 4: Hidden Power Ice / Hidden Power Flying
    item: Leftovers
    nature: Timid
    evs: 248 HP / 84 Def / 176 Spe

    [SET COMMENTS]

    <p>With this set, Zapdos can both take a lot of hits and immediately pressure your opponent offensively. It can avoid a 2HKO from a majority of attackers and threaten them with high-powered attacks, forcing many switches, and leaving you opportunities to get free Substitutes, which are great for easing prediction and facilitating Pressure stalls. These things in conjunction with Roost make Zapdos an absolute terror to remove the game once it has hit the battlefield. The most common answers to Zapdos are Ice- and Rock-type attacks, however but with Pressure and its good bulk, Zapdos can easily outslast the PP of common moves like Ice Beam and Stone Edge, leaving your opponent few options to break it. Substitute also provides a dual purpose in that it staves off the one thing this Zapdos hates more than anything: status. Because of these attributes, SubRoost Zapdos makes a great candidate for use on balanced and stall teams as a defensive pivot.</p>

    <p>Thunderbolt is a staple on any Zapdos set, hitting everything but Ground-types for respectable damage, even without any Special Attack investment. Hidden Power Ice is an excellent coverage move alongside Thunderbolt, nailing many common Ground-type switch-ins, like such as Flygon and Nidoqueen, for super effective damage. On the other hand, Hidden Power Flying allows Zapdos to easily dispatch Swords Dance Heracross and 2HKO offensive Shaymin and Roserade, both things that Hidden Power Ice fails to do (though you'll need 252 SpA EVs in order to 2HKO specially defensive Roserade with Hidden Power Flying with Stealth Rock). Additionally, it hits all Ground-type Pokemon (outside of Rhypeiror) in the UU tier for neutral damage and is only marginaly weaker than a super effective Hidden Power Ice. Lastly, if Swampert or Rhyperior are exceptionally large threats to your team, Hidden Power Grass can be used to good effect. However, Electric and Grass do not have great type synergy, so this is an extremely niche option.</p>

    [ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]

    <p>The EVs listed allow Zapdos to outrun all non-Choice Scarf base 90 Pokemon with a positive nature. If you'd like to invest more, maximum Speed is recommended in order to tie with the base 100 squad of Pokemon. The rest of the EVs are invested into defenses in order to optimize Zapdos' bulk, maximizing HP while putting the rest into either Defense or Special Defense depending on your team's particular needs. A more offensive version of this set is viable and should run an EV spread of 252 SpA / 4 Def / 252 Spe with a Modest nature. Leftovers should be replaced with a Life Orb. These changes leave Zapdos far less bulky but let it put even more offensive pressure on an opposing team, as common special walls such as Mew are now 2HKOed with Stealth Rock and a layer of Spikes in play. Do note, however that your Zapdos' Speed will drop as a result of this change, so additional coverage against Pokemon sitting in the base 90 range, like Roserade, will need to be added ot your team.</p>

    <p>Toxic can be used in place of Hidden Power to more effectively stall out foes with reliable recovery, but this renders Zapdos completely useless against common Poison-type Pokemon, such as Roserade, Nidoqueen, and Nidoking. Thus, it maybe a good idea to pair Zapdos with a teammate that carries Toxic Spikes. A defensive Qwilfish is the best candidate for this job, as it resists Ice-type moves aimed at Zapdos and has Intimidate to soften the blow of physical Rock-type moves that might come Zapdos' way. Nidoqueen is another option, mainly because it routinely counters Raikou, which can come in on this Zapdos easily with impunity, especially if it lacks Toxic. Nidoqueen also hits all Poison-types in the tier for super effective damage with its Sheer Force-boosted STAB Earth Power and Ice Beam should they attempt to absorb your Toxic Spikes.</p>

    <p>Specially defensive Rhyperior is one of the best Zapdos counters in general, but it is particularly effective against this set because it can utilize Rock Blast to damage Zapdos even if it has a Substitute up, while taking miniscule damage from Hidden Power Ice and Hidden Power Flying. Raikou also makes an excellent counter to this set, especially if this Zapdos lacks Toxic, as it can come in freely against Thunderbolt or Hidden Power, set up a Substitute, and facilitate a Calm Mind sweep. Lastly, unless you've opted to use the more offensive variant, Mew, Umbreon, and Snorlax are all hard counters to this set. Mew can shrug off Thunderbolts with Softboiled, Taunt Zapdos so it you cannot use Roost or Substitute, and then begin to chip away at Zapdos' health bar with a combination of Will-O-Wisp and Psyshock. Umbreon can stall Zapdos out of all of its Thunderbolt PP with a combination of Wish and Protect, and if Zapdos paralyzes with Thunderbolt or uses Toxic, your precious Zapdos will get statused itself, all completely for naught as Umbreon will just use Heal Bell in the coming turn. Snorlax can avoid getting 3HKOed by Thunderbolt from the pivot spread and spam Body Slams to fish for a paralysis, setting up a 3HKO should Zapdos ever be fully paralyzed and miss an opportunity to Roost.</p>
  2. LonelyNess

    LonelyNess PK FLASH
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    I changed the first EV spread to put a little more emphasis on bulk and less on tying with the base 100's. I did this because CB Flygon OHKOs with Outrage so it's not as though Zapdos is going to be a pivot to that and obviously CS Flygon is going to outspeed you regardless of the spread you use. Tying with Shaymin is largely irrelevant also, seeing as how you don't 2HKO with HP Ice (the recommended option) so it can easily Synth spam and hope for a SpD drop then hit you with Psychics until you die. Either way, the Shaymin vs. Zapdos matchup always ends up the same way "PP stalling". Speed is irrelevant to that game plan so I see no reason to recommend a faster spread.

    Oh, also someone mentioned Darmanitan. Zapdos doesn't OHKO with TBolt, and obviously CS (used 70% of the time) outspeeds you regardless of spread. I don't think we should be advertising to people that Zapdos can somehow be a check or counter to Darmanitan when honestly your team should have two or even three answers to it separately from Zapdos. If you're so desperate that you're using Zapdos to outspeed and deal like 70% to Darmanitan with Thunderbolt, odds are you've probably lost the battle at that point.
  3. LonelyNess

    LonelyNess PK FLASH
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    Also, I'd like to question whether or not we need an Offensive SubRoost set. I feel like it could be covered in the "Additional Comments" of the classic subroost set, since mainly we're just going goo-goo eyes over how beastly strong it is.
  4. kokoloko

    kokoloko supersmooth
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    I'd run 176 Speed on the set(s) because offensive Roserade is a huge fucking cunt.

    Also, I was never entirely convinced by adding a separate set for Offensive SubRoost, so I don't mind either way.
  5. LonelyNess

    LonelyNess PK FLASH
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    This is ready for grammar checking
  6. relaunched

    relaunched

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    [SET]
    name: Classic SubRoost
    move 1: Substitute
    move 2: Roost
    move 3: Thunderbolt
    move 4: Hidden Power Ice / Hidden Power Flying
    item: Leftovers
    nature: Timid
    evs: 248 HP / 84 Def / 176 Spe

    [SET COMMENTS]

    With this set, Zapdos is a Pokemon that can both take a lot of hits as well as and immediately put offensive pressure on to your opponent offensively. It often can avoid being 2HKO'd by a 2HKO from a majority of attackers and threaten them with high powered high-powered attacks, forcing many switches, and leaving you opportunities to get free Substitutes. (Explain why it's good to get Substitutes up, outside of status, which you refer to later.) These things in conjunction with Roost make Zapdos an absolute terror to remove from the game once it has hit the field of battle battlefield. The most common answers to Zapdos are to hit it with Ice and Rock-type attacks, however with Pressure and some its good bulk, Zapdos can easily stall out the PP of common moves like Ice Beam and Stone Edge, leaving your opponent few options to break it. Substitute also provides a dual purpose in that it staves off the one thing that this Zapdos hates more than anything: status. Because of these attributes, SubRoost Zapdos makes a great candidate for use on balanced and stall teams as a defensive pivot.

    Thunderbolt is a staple on any Zapdos set, hitting everything except for but Ground-types for respectable damage, even without any Special Attack investment. Hidden Power Ice is an excellent coverage move alongside Thunderbolt, nailing many common Ground-type switch-ins, like Flygon and Nidoqueen (AC) for super effective damage. On the other hand, Hidden Power Flying allows Zapdos to easily dispatch Swords Dance Heracross (RC) as well as provide a and 2HKO on offensive Shaymin and Roserade, something that Hidden Power Ice fails to provide both things that Hidden Power Ice fails to do. Additionally (AC) it hits all of the Ground-type Pokemon (outside of Rhyperior) in the UU tier for neutral damage (outside of Rhyperior) and is only marginally weaker than a super effective Hidden Power Ice. Lastly, if Swampert or Rhyperior are exceptionally large threats to your team, Hidden Power Grass can be used to great good (great seems inappropriate given the following sentence) effect. However, Electric and Grass do not have the greatest type synergy together, so this is an extremely niche option.

    [ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]

    The EVs listed are set to allow Zapdos to outrun all non-Choice Scarf base 90 Pokemon with a positive nature. If you'd like to invest more, it's recommended to max them out maximal Speed is recommended in order to tie with the base 100 squad of Pokemon. The rest of the EVs are invested into HP defenses in order to optimize Zapdos' bulk, maximizing HP while giving Zapdos a Leftovers number and putting the rest into choosing either Def or SpD depending on your team's particular needs. (I am not sure that "Leftovers number" is correct, if not, replace "Leftovers number" with the reason for Zapdos's 248 HP EVs.) A more offensive version of this set is certainly viable and should run an EV spread of 252 SpA / 4 Def / 252 Spe and with a Modest nature. The item Leftovers should also be replaced with a Life Orb. The These changes to this style of play leaves Zapdos far less bulky but can now let it put even more offensive pressure on to an opposing team, as common special walls such as Mew and Umbreon are now 2HKO'd 2HKOed with Stealth Rock and a layer of Spikes in play. (According to the Honkcalculator, standard 252 HP/252 SpD Umbreon is never 2HKOed from 75% when factoring in one round of Leftovers recovery.) Do note however that your speed will drop as a result of this change, so additional coverage against Heracross, Roserade, and other Pokemon sitting in the base 85 - 95 Speed range will need to be added to your team. (You have to revise the preceding sentence because Modest max Zapdos still outspeeds Jolly max Heracross.)

    Toxic can be used in place of Hidden Power to expedite the process of stalling more effectively stall out foes with reliable recovery, however but this renders Zapdos completely useless against common Poison-type Pokemon, such as Roserade, Nidoqueen, and Nidoking. Therefore Thus, it is a potentially may be a good idea to pair Zapdos with a teammate that carries Toxic Spikes. A defensive Qwilfish is the best candidate for this job as it resists Ice-type moves aimed at Zapdos, and has Intimidate to soften the blow of any physical Rock-type moves that might come Zapdos' way. Nidoqueen is another option, mainly for its ability to because it routinely counters Raikou, who would generally can come in on this Zapdos with impunity, especially if it lacks Toxic. It Nidoqueen also hits all of the Poison-types in the tier for super effective damage with its STAB Earth Power and Sheer Force boosted Ice Beam Sheer Force-boosted STAB Earth Power and Ice Beam (this change suggests more strongly that Earth Power is also boosted by Sheer Force) should they attempt to absorb your Toxic Spikes.

    Specially Defensive Rhyperior is generally regarded as one of the better best Zapdos counters in general, but it is particularly effective against this set because it can utilize Rock Blast to damage Zapdos even if it has a Substitute up, while taking miniscule damage from Hidden Power Ice or and Hidden Power Flying. Raikou also makes an excellent counter to this set, especially if it is lacking this Zapdos lacks Toxic, as it can come in with impunity freely against Thunderbolt or a neutral Hidden Power (as HP Flying isn't even neutral), set up a Substitute, and begin to facilitate attempt a Calm Mind sweep. Lastly, unless you've opted to use the more offensive variant set, Mew, Umbreon, and Snorlax are all hard counters to this set. Mew can shrug off Thunderbolt damage with Softboiled, Taunt you so that you cannot use Roost or Substitute and then begin to chip away at your health bar with a combination of Will-O-Wisp and Psyshock. Umbreon can stall you out of all of your Thunderbolt PP with a combination of Wish and Protect (AC) and if you opt to use the Toxic set or paralyze with Thunderbolt paralyze with Thunderbolt or use Toxic, your precious Zapdos will get statused itself, all completely for naught as Umbreon will easily just use Heal Bell itself in the coming turn. Snorlax can avoid getting 3HKO'd 3HKOed by Thunderbolt from the pivot spread and return with spamming spam Body Slams fishing for a paralysis to fish for a paralysis, setting up for a 3HKO should Zapdos ever be fully paralyzed and miss an opportunity to Roost.


    [gp]1/2[/gp]
  7. LonelyNess

    LonelyNess PK FLASH
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    implemented changes

    ready for grammar check #2
  8. GatoDelFuego

    GatoDelFuego This is what is technically known as a Firecat
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    REMOVE CHANGE COMMENTS

    Show Hide
    [SET]
    name: Classic SubRoost
    move 1: Substitute
    move 2: Roost
    move 3: Thunderbolt
    move 4: Hidden Power Ice / Hidden Power Flying
    item: Leftovers
    nature: Timid
    evs: 248 HP / 84 Def / 176 Spe

    [SET COMMENTS]

    With this set, Zapdos can both take a lot of hits and immediately pressure your opponent offensively. It can avoid a 2HKO from a majority of attackers and threaten them with high-powered attacks, forcing many switches, and leaving you opportunities to get free Substitutes, which are great for easing prediction and facilitating Pressure stalls. These things in conjunction with Roost make Zapdos an absolute terror to remove the game once it has hit the battlefield. The most common answers to Zapdos are Ice- and Rock-type attacks, however but with Pressure and its good bulk, Zapdos can easily outslast the PP of common moves like Ice Beam and Stone Edge, leaving your opponent few options to break it. Substitute also provides a dual purpose in that it staves off the one thing this Zapdos hates more than anything: status. Because of these attributes, SubRoost Zapdos makes a great candidate for use on balanced and stall teams as a defensive pivot.

    Thunderbolt is a staple on any Zapdos set, hitting everything but Ground-types for respectable damage, even without any Special Attack investment. Hidden Power Ice is an excellent coverage move alongside Thunderbolt, nailing many common Ground-type switch-ins, like such as Flygon and Nidoqueen, for super effective damage. On the other hand, Hidden Power Flying allows Zapdos to easily dispatch Swords Dance Heracross and 2HKO offensive Shaymin and Roserade, both things that Hidden Power Ice fails to do. Additionally, it hits all Ground-type Pokemon (outside of Rhypeiror) in the UU tier for neutral damage and is only marginaly weaker than a super effective Hidden Power Ice. Lastly, if Swampert or Rhyperior are exceptionally large threats to your team, Hidden Power Grass can be used to good effect. However, Electric and Grass do not have great type synergy, so this is an extremely niche option.

    [ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]

    The EVs listed allow Zapdos to outrun all non-Choice Scarf base 90 Pokemon with a positive nature. If you'd like to invest more, maximum Speed is recommended in order to tie with the base 100 squad of Pokemon. The rest of the EVs are invested into defenses in order to optimize Zapdos's bulk, maximizing HP while putting the rest into either Defense or Special Defense depending on your team's particular needs. A more offensive version of this set is viable and should run an EV spread of 252 SpA / 4 Def / 252 Spe with a Modest nature. Leftovers should be replaced with a Life Orb. These changes leave Zapdos far less bulky but let it put even more offensive pressure on an opposing team, as common special walls such as Mew are now 2HKOed with Stealth Rock and a layer of Spikes in play. Do note however that your Zapdos's Speed will drop as a result of this change, so additional coverage against Pokemon sitting in the base 90 range, like Roserade, will need to be added ot your team.

    Toxic can be used in place of Hidden Power to more effectively stall out foes with reliable recovery, but this renders Zapdos completely useless against common Poison-type Pokemon, such as Roserade, Nidoqueen, and Nidoking. Thus, it maybe a good idea to pair Zapdos with a teammate that carries Toxic Spikes. A defensive Qwilfish is the best candidate for this job, (AC) as it resists Ice-type moves aimed at Zapdos, (RC) and has Intimidate to soften the blow of physical Rock-type moves that might come Zapdos's way. Nidoqueen is another option, mainly because it routinely counters Raikou, who which can come in on this Zapdos easily with impunity, especially if it lacks Toxic. Nidoqueen also hits all Poison-types in the tier for super effective damage with its Sheer Force-boosted STAB Earth Power and Ice Beam should they attempt to absorb your Toxic Spikes.

    Specially defensive Rhyperior is one of the best Zapdos counters in general, but it is particularly effective against this set because it can utilize Rock Blast to damage Zapdos even if it has a Substitute up, while taking miniscule damage from Hidden Power Ice and Hidden Power Flying. Raikou also makes an excellent counter to this set, especially if this Zapdos lacks Toxic, as it can come in freely against Thunderbolt or Hidden Power, set up a Substitute, and facilitate a Calm Mind sweep. Lastly, unless you've opted to use the more offensive variant, Mew, Umbreon, and Snorlax are all hard counters to this set. Mew can shrug off Thunderbolts with Softboiled, Taunt you Zapdos so it you cannot use Roost or Substitute, (AC) and then begin to chip away at your Zapdos's health bar with a combination of Will-O-Wisp and Psyshock. Umbreon can stall you Zapdos out of all of its your Thunderbolt PP with a combination of Wish and Protect, and if you Zapdos paralyzes with Thunderbolt or uses Toxic, your precious Zapdos will get statused itself, all completely for naught as Umbreon will just use Heal Bell in the coming turn. Snorlax can avoid getting 3HKOed by Thunderbolt from the pivot spread and spam Body Slams to fish for a paralysis, setting up a 3HKO should Zapdos ever be fully paralyzed and miss an opportunity to Roost.


    You're missing the <p></p> tags!
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  9. LonelyNess

    LonelyNess PK FLASH
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    added changes
  10. kokoloko

    kokoloko supersmooth
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