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Zeel discussion

Discussion in 'TCG' started by Alakapimp, Apr 30, 2012.

  1. Alakapimp

    Alakapimp All washed up
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    Zeel (Zekrom Eelektrik) is probably the best deck in the current format, and will still be a strong contender going into the Dark ages. As a show of its might it took all but one spring regionals. Here was the list I used at my regionals (and similar to what I used at states):

    3 Tynamo
    3 Eelektrik 30 hp
    2 Zekrom BW
    3 Mewtwo EX
    1 Thundurus
    1 Zapdos ND
    1 Shaymin
    1 Cleffa
    15

    4 Pokemon Collector
    4 pont (Professor Oak's New Theory)
    4 Professor Juniper
    2 Sage's Training
    2 Pokegear 3.0
    4 Junk Arm
    4 Pokemon Catcher
    3 Level Ball
    2 Switch
    2 Eviolite
    30

    4 dce (Double Colorless Energy)
    10 Electric Energy
    14

    For those unfamiliar, Eelektrik allows you to once per turn attach a basic electric energy from your discard to one of your benched Pokemon, allowing you to greatly increase the speed of your energy attachments.

    I vastly prefer the consistency and stability of the collector version, but understand the allure of more draw focused Dual Ball version. I'm interested to hear y'alls opinion on the subject.

    With the move into the dark ages I plan to focus more heavily on Eviolited Zeks who fair well against both of the main new Dark-type attackers, adding 1 evo and 1 zek. I'm also interested to hear what other people think will change in the new format.

    Otherwise just general discussion of the mighty Zeel and everything about it.
  2. Nova

    Nova genger
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    I think Zeel decks will add 1 or 2 Raikou EX for a great way of sniping opponent's Eels on the bench as well as Baby Pokemon for quick prizes. However, the main attackers will still be Mewtwo EX and Zekrom as Raikou's snipe requires the user to discard ALL Lightning Energy, meaning that he will be unable to use the Attack consecutively unless you are playing Skyarrow Bridge with multiple Raikous. I believe that Zeel decks will still be a dominant force in the new meta but must be wary of more Fighting type decks now with the release of Groudon EX who can really prove problematic with its high 180 HP, electric resistance, and ability to one shot Zekroms and Raikous most of the time.
  3. Alakapimp

    Alakapimp All washed up
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    I think the EXs in the new set are for the most part way overhyped. I think what Raikou accomplishes is so slight in the light of both Catcher and Zapdos being easier, more efficient, and less risky than powering a two prize EX up and then discarding all of its energies. Raikou is much easier for something like Darkrai or Mewtwo even Zek to two shot than EVO zek is to one shot.

    If we didn't have catcher making hitting the bench so easy already, Raikou would be great, but in this meta I really don't think Raikou has a place.

    Groudon is easy to take down with mewtwo.
  4. zero2exe

    zero2exe Veteran Breeder - Expert Translator
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    Still with so many fighting types ready to take on Eelzek decks I believe the addition of another Zapdos could prove even more rewarding than a raikou ex. That fighting resistance is too good to pass up and even if groudon's there to hit you it can't OHKO zappy while zappy can just snipe the benched pokemon for massive damage regardless of resistance.
    I also see Tornadus as a nice addition to electric decks giving even more energy acceleration for a DCE and a basic energy which will go to a benched pokemon after dealing a solid 80 unresisted (bar eviolite) damage.
  5. rax

    rax

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    I agree with you about collector --- it's just too valuable to be able to get two or three tynamos down at once on an early turn.

    The only place my list differs wildly from yours (glad I wasn't the only one running 2 Zekrom BLW and one Thundurus) is the lack of N in yours. I found N really potent late-game, particularly against CMT, for disrupting opponents --- while Eelektrik makes it less necessary, it still helps sometimes in the mirror, too. Did you test it and find that it didn't help as much as other draw cards? I ended up taking out Sage's personally.

    I'm also curious why 10 ended up being the right number of energy for you, as most lists I've seen used 8 or 9, and I bounced back and forth between those two myself as well. Is it just the consistency boost?

    I definitely agree that 3/3 Zekrom/Eviolite is the way to go moving forward, although I'm a little more excited about Raikou than you are.

    Do you think in the new format you'll switch to Random Receiver? I plan to in most decks, but I think when you run collector, it may be best to keep Pokegear; I'm not sure. I haven't tested it yet, really.
  6. Alakapimp

    Alakapimp All washed up
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    I tested N quite a bit, but never liked how much it could hurt you if you really needed draw to win the game in a late 1-1, 2-2ish situation. I felt like you were as likely to screw yourself over by having that as your draw as you were to actually hurt your opponent.

    I feel like people cut their energy lines way to often. 10 is a very consistent number, and Zeel is a deck that really needs its energies. Running a large consistent energy number isn't as sexy as a teched out trainer line, or interesting Pokemon tech, but it is very valuable in the long run. People complain all the time about whiffing on energies or going dry. Energy is also a very easy thing to cut when you are trying to fit in that one more card, which is why I always set my energy number and then don't look at it when looking for cuts.

    Definitely sticking with gear, Collector Zeel is probably the only thing its still good in, but hitting Collector when you wanted draw, or not being able to hit turn 1 collector as often are both huge drawbacks to RR.
  7. Maxb

    Maxb

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    I think you should definitely find a way to fit in 2 Pluspower, another Tynamo, another Thundurus, and 2-3 N. Pluspower gets so many missed KO's because of all the 130 hp basics running around, Mewtwo revenge kills with just 2 energy, and killing Eels with Thundurus. 4 Tynamos is very important imo because of Catcher, and usually 2 get knocked out every game. Btw, do you run 40 hp or 30 hp Tynamo? I think 3 40 hp and 1 30 hp is the way to go. First turn Charge with Thundurus is by far the best start (save for a Tyrogue knockout on a Tynamo) for ZekEels, so 2 are necessary imo. N is, imo, one of the best cards in the format. Without N, it is a lot harder to come back from a losing game.
    My Zeels list pre-DE was this:
    2 Mewtwo EX
    3 Zekrom
    2 Thundurus
    3 Tynamo (40 HP)
    1 Tynamo (30 HP)
    3 Eelektrik
    1 Tyrogue

    1 Pokegear
    4 Catcher
    2 Switch
    2 Level Ball
    4 Junk Arm
    1 Super Rod
    4 Juniper
    4 PONT
    3 N
    4 Dual Ball
    2 Eviolite
    2 Pluspower

    9 Lightning
    3 DCE

    I'm thinking post-DE Zeels won't change much. Adding a Terrakion + Shaymin and a couple Fighting energy could be good, but that really messes with consistency. Only changes I'm probably going to make are putting in some Ultra Balls and Random Receivers.
  8. Alakapimp

    Alakapimp All washed up
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    I disagree with you on most of your points. About PlusPower you mention 130 hp basics, but which? Zekrom that you will be damage itself into range? Reshi that will tyhplo into range? Kyu that no one plays. I've always felt like plus power was a waste of good space and you should get your kos with the right Pokemon so that you don't need it.

    4 Tynamos is nice, but definitely not necessary.

    Thundurus is pretty overrated, I was always iffy on the one, would definitely never run 2, because (carrying on to your next point) charge isn't really the best start. Often I would rather eek or just attach to a zek, or the wonderful DCE catcher with Mewtwo.

    I've already explained why I dislike N.

    One thing I hadn't mentioned is why I don't like Ultra Ball. Zeel doesn't find itself having trouble with discarding energies all too often, and when you do they normally aren't in your hand anyway. However when you need to Ultra Ball and don't have energies in hand it can wreck your resources, especially if you have to Junk Arm for it.
  9. Maxb

    Maxb

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    Pluspower lets you kill a Mewtwo with only 4 energy between them (which then forces your opponent to have a Pluspower or put 3 energy on a Mewtwo to revenge), it lets you kill Terrakion, it lets Tyrogue kill a 40 hp Tynamo, lets Thundurus 2hko Mewtwo, lets you kill undamaged Zekrom, lets Thundurus kill Eel, lets you kill Zekrom with Eviolite after it Bolt Strikes, and I'm sure I could think of other scenarios. 10 damage really does make a big difference.

    Mewtwo + DCE start is one of the worst starts, imo. Benching a Mewtwo first turn is something you never want to do (unless it's a donk). You should only be using Mewtwo to kill another Mewtwo, or if you want to force a Mewtwo war. The only time you want to force a Mewtwo war is if it will bring you down to an even number of prizes, and would give you the prize lead on your opponent (i.e. you kill something with Mewtwo that brings you down to 2 prizes, while your opponent has 3. Even in this scenario, if your opponent drops Mewtwo and N you will probably lose.) Turn 1 Eek is also pretty bad, Cleffa is just another free prize for Tyrogue (which is very prevalent). Eeking, in general, is just a waste of time. If you have to Eek, the game is probably already a lost cause. If you want to run the Collector version you need to fit Smeargle and Skyarrow into your deck, or it's too slow. Charge is the strongest start, it gets energy on the board and sets you up for a turn 2 Disaster Volt which, in turn, gets energy in the discard.

    Hand disruption is invaluable late-game. Early-game, it is a much better draw supporter than Sage's. Basically, Sage's is bad, and you need a 3rd good draw supporter and N fills that role as well as providing late-game hand disruption.

    Running 2 Ultra Ball will help Eels, imo. Just drop 2 Dual Ball for 2 Ultra Ball, its just more versatile and you will probably have Dual Ball/Level Ball in the discard if you need to Junk Arm for a ball.
  10. Mekkah

    Mekkah watashi wa kirai every single one of you kisamas
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    Maxb: Alaka is a big boy, he knows why those staple cards are used. He just made a very conscious decision not to play them, partially because his particular build makes less use of them. He doesn't play Tyrogue and only 1 Thundurus, so PlusPower in particular loses a lot of value.

    I like 4 Tynamo as well, but he plays Super Rod so if he really needs the 4th one he has that option at least.
  11. rax

    rax

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    I agree that PlusPower is a good card, and I run it in my list, but it's very situational, and it's reasonable to read the meta and conclude that you aren't going to run into those situations or that you have other ways to handle them. Zeels cares way less about putting 3 energy on its Mewtwos because it has Eelektrik, Zapdos lists can finish off KOs with snipe, &c... I ended up playing it the last week of States because the first States I played Zeels in, I lost to quad Terrakion in top 8, and was worried about that specific matchup. That ended up being the main matchup where I really wanted the PlusPower; in a number of games I didn't play it at all. There are other ways to deal with Terrakion too, but PlusPower is one of the ones I picked.

    There is a risk of giving up a prize there, yes, but "If you have to Eek, the game is probably already a lost cause" doesn't make sense to me. If the game feels like a lost cause, wouldn't you rather get a new hand right away in the hope of doing something with it? I'm not quite as sold on the Cleffa as Alaka is, but I see the appeal and clearly it worked for him. I would consider Tyrogue instead, but Cleffa is definitely useful.

    Why do you say that Sage's is bad? That hasn't been my experience, even though I ended up taking it out of my Zeels. It's one thing to say that N is better, which honestly I agree with, but Sage's can help you get energy/trainers into the discard, it looks deep into the deck without shuffling, and it helps you more in the late game with the caveat that it doesn't hurt your opponent. If you didn't want to use N, what else would you use after PONT and Juniper?
  12. Steiner

    Steiner

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    Are people still running Thundurus in this deck? I wasn't liking it very much so I've begun using Raikou EX instead and it's been much better.
  13. Supe

    Supe would you suck the poison out

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    I agree with a lot of the points Alaka is making. I too prefer the collector version of the deck over the ball engine variants. I don't think it's as dead of a card after you're all set up as a lot of people claim. There's been plenty of times where I've had a full bench and used collector just to grab stuff to use as junk arm fodder instead of discarding more valuable resources from my hand. I will have to disagree about the Tynamo count though. I can't imagine not playing 4 of them, but hey, to each their own!

    I'm still working on my post DEX build of this deck. I agree about focusing on Zekrom BW with eviolite, and I think that 2 Mewtwo is still the correct play. I have to say, I'm a bit surprised that nobody has really brought up Tornadus EX as a solid inclusion in Zeels. It's such a good fighting counter that I think at least 1 copy should be included. Tornadus is especially good if you play the Smeargle/Skyarrow version of Zeels. Also, there seems to be a push for using the 40HP Tynamos because of Darkari's snipe, so Skyarrow helps with the retreat there too. Is there something I'm not thinking of that would make Tornadus EX a bad play in this deck?

    Like I said, it's a work in progress, but I think a Smeargle/Skyarrow build with Tornadus EX seems like a decent play going into BRs...

    Pokemon

    4 Tynamo (40 HP NVI)
    3 Eels
    3 Zekrom BW
    2 Mewtwo EX
    1 Tornadus EX
    1 Smeargle
    1 Tyrogue
    Total = 15

    T/S/S
    4 Collector
    4 Juniper
    3 PONT
    3 N
    4 Catcher
    4 Junk Arm
    3 Eviolite
    2 Level Ball
    2 Pokegear
    2 Skyarrow Bridge
    1 Super Rod
    Total = 32

    Energy

    4 DCE
    9 Electric
    Total = 13

    Not a lot of changes with the new set, but I'm curious to hear people's opinions nonetheless.
  14. Steiner

    Steiner

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    I've made the choice of running 3 Tornadus EX, 3 Smeargle and 1 Raikou EX. Some might be skeptical of this decision but it's tested very well so far. Tornadus EX is such a good Pokemon, especially with Skyarrow Bridge. Having multiple Tornadus EX overwhelms Terrakion decks to the point where it becomes a favorable match-up. T1 60 followed by T2 100 is no joke, especially considering dumping a Lightning Energy for Power Blast fuels the Eel engine.

    I've opted to run 3 Smeargle along with 4 Dual Ball instead of Collectors because it simply makes the deck a lot faster and Smeargle is very easy to use with Skyarrow Bridge.

    My deck runs 3 Tornadus EX and lacks Terrakion, so I needed something to give me the edge in a mirror match. Raikou EX is awesome for sniping shit on the bench, specifically opposing Eels. Disrupting their Energy supply is so crucial and wins games. Raikou EX is also a solid Mewtwo EX check since it can hit for 100 and then dump all energy to weaken X-Ball.
  15. Twannes

    Twannes

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    I don't know yet whether to play Collector or not, but the deck would be virtually the same, aside from those 5 cards that are collectors and the Random Receiver/Pok├ęgear 3.0. Mind that Collector needs to be played with Pok├ęgear, whereas the version with a ball engine can use Random Receiver, since getting a collector on your receiver just sucks, especially if it is in the first 4 or 5 cards. What I would run in both versions, is 40 Hp tynamo's with maybe 1 30 Hp tynamo in there. Currently my plan is to use:

    1 Tynamo 38/101 NV (40 hp)
    1 Tynamo 39/101 NV (30 hp)
    2 Tynamo 45/108 DEX (40 hp with spark)

    This leaves you less vunerable to Darkrai EX one shotting your precious Tynamo's with Night Spear (since pluspower and dark claw dont affect the bench damage). And since Darkrai EX is getting popular, you need to protect your Tynamo's. Skyarrow also completements this by giving all Tynamo's free retreat and then the step to Smeargle is easily made. The Tynamo with spark is especially usefull vs Terrakion, since they won't attack T1 and allows Zekrom to OHKO with Bolt Strike. Ofc running 3 Tynamo's with Spark could be an option, but since Thunder Wave might be handy sometimes I added that as well (note that i dont own more of the Thunder Wave Tynamo's but i do own a playset of the other 3 versions). What is notheworthy as well is that things like Tyrogue and Cleffa won't be useful anymore of the simple reason that Darkrai EX exists and that it will be played and because of 40 hp Tynamo's becoming more popular in Tyrogue's case.

    Then to the pokemon which are solid in a Zeels list. 1 copy of Raikou EX is really helpfull and a solid inclusion in the deck. you can snipe Eels for free. It has free retreat with Skyarrow and actually makes a good Mewtwo EX check. Volt bolt discards all lightning so Raikou EX will have 0 energy after its attack (most of the time). Then it can retreat with skyarrow and a powered-up guy like zekrom or even thundurus can finish Mewtwo ex off.

    Then 1 copy of Tornadus Ex pared with eviolite is usually waht you need to get a free turn in the fighting matchup, which can be precious to get another attacker (mostly Mewtwo EX) out to deal with the stream of Terrakions (and sometimes, Groudon EX). It also gives great donk potential, as a skyarrow with dual ball and DCE can provide the T1 60, since most of your basics have 1 retreat cost.

    Ofc Mewtwo Ex stays in the deck, with around 1 or 2 being in the list. what do you guys think of mewtwo ex + revive (because of me only having 1 mewtwo atm, poor me). These are just my opinions on the cards, correct me if i'm wrong ;)

    I run it as a one-of for Charge and Disaster Volt T1 and T2 respectively. Also it helps vs CMT knocgin out Celebi and Tornadus. It also puts every EX (bar Groudon) into KO range for Zekrom or other attackers. Finally it can OHKO Tornadus EX with a Pluspower ;)

    EDIT: here is my current list. Suggestions and/or constructive critisism is always appreciated (mainly about my search cards; the ball engine, since im not sure yet how to run that.)

    Pokemon (14):
    1 Tynamo 38/101 NV (40 hp)
    1 Tynamo 39/101 NV (30 hp)
    2 Tynamo 45/108 DEX (40 hp with spark)
    3 Eelektrik NV
    2 Zekrom BW
    1 Mewtwo EX ---> (don't have 2, my single copy needs to come in the mail as well)
    1 Tornadus EX
    1 Tornadus EPO ---> (or Raikou EX when I get it)
    1 Thundurus EPO
    1 Smeargle CL


    T/S/S (33):
    4 Professor Juniper
    4 PONT
    3 N

    4 Junk Arm
    3 Dual Ball
    2 Level Ball
    1 Ultra Ball
    3 Pokemon Catcher
    2 Pluspower
    2 Switch
    1 Super Rod
    1 Eviolite
    1 Random Receiver

    2 Skyarrow Bridge

    Energy (13):
    4 DCE ----> (because of Tornadus EPO, i get Raikou EX one DCE will most likely become a lightning energy)
    9 Lightning Energy
  16. Kikuichimonji

    Kikuichimonji

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    I've basically abandoned Collector in Zeels at this point. Collector has gotten significantly weaker since last season, one of the things that contributed to Collector's usefulness in older formats was its synergy with Communication. Since the new balls have largely replaced Communication, Collector's usefulness late-game wanes significantly. Also, as has been stated, playing Collector requires that you use Random Receiver instead of Pokegear 3.0. In the end it's less about Collector versus Dual Ball and more about Communication versus Level Ball (Level Ball wins) and Random Receiver versus Pokegear (RR wins).

    N is a very potent card in the current format, and many games are won and lost on players' ability to recover from N late-game. The question if "if you didn't want to use N" is analogous to "if you didn't want to use Catcher," the question is irrelevant because the card is too good not to play.

    Due to the potency of N, the deck has too many valuable cards that it can't afford to discard with Sage. Every PONT, Juniper, or Junk Arm that you send to the discard decreases your ability to recover from N late game. Conserving resources is too important in this format. Furthermore, the payoff from Sage is too low to justify the high cost. It's also worth noting that the main advantages of Sage (being able to keep your hand) is basically irrelevant when it comes to recovering from late-game N, when your hands will suck and you want complete hand refresh.
  17. Mekkah

    Mekkah watashi wa kirai every single one of you kisamas
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    List seems good enough Twannes. I don't think you need a 30 HP Tynamo, I'd just run all Thunder Wave really.
  18. Purimpopoie

    Purimpopoie

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    Does no one run Zekrom-EX in this anymore?

    ...My own Eels list must be more outdated than I thought. I'm sitting here looking at it, trying to update it, but I realize I have no Smeargle. Or Tyrogue. Or that sort of thing. I hesitate to post my list because if it's before I do any work on it, even I could point out issues, and if it's after, I feel like it'll look too much like other lists in the topic.
  19. Twannes

    Twannes

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    The reason nobody uses Zekrom EX anymore is because of Terrakion being able to OHKO it with Retaliate. Smeargle is an option as consistency card so you could use it or not, that is your own choice. Tyrogue will see less play IMO, because of people now running 40 Hp Tynamo's and Darkai EX being able to get a free prize from it. Currently, most Zeels lists look the same, aside from Skyarrow Bridge ;)


    Thanks :D I will see if I own more Thunder Wave Tynamo's, otherwise I will add one Tynamo with Spark ;)
  20. Mekkah

    Mekkah watashi wa kirai every single one of you kisamas
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    Zekrom EX was never all that great imo.
  21. jle1076

    jle1076

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    Why dont you run the 40 HP tynamos? so theyre not as easily sniped. Also, which zapdos is this? NV didnt have a zapdos in it, did you mean ND?
  22. Alakapimp

    Alakapimp All washed up
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    The list in the op was pre DEX when the 30 hp was better. In my DEX version I use 40 hp Thunderwave tynamos. ND Zapdos.
  23. asianaussie

    asianaussie

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    Been quite some time since I've posted on smogon, but a TCG forum is a good reason to do so.

    Tyrogue is now meh.
    Smeargle is good. Not my playstyle, but it's good.
    N is amazing.
    Zekrom EX was never 'good', but it was a workable Mewtwo EX revenge killer and could plant damage on a second Mewtwo too.
    Sage's was alright before, a 2-count took me places, but now that Ultra Ball exists there's less reason to play it. The main benefit was simultaneous cards and Lightning discard, which Juniper and Junk Arm generally does better anyway (but you can't have 6 Juniper so...)

    I run a 2/2 split of para/spread Tynamos, that extra 10 damage on something like an Eel+Darkrai+Tornadus EX/Thundurus/Terrakion+Zekrom makes the KO that much easier (for Thundurus/100 hitters/Zekrom respectively), and since (imo) decks don't necessarily have the room for Pluspower anymore, a T1 Spark can be a clutch play. Good on Mewtwo EX too, if they put it down (allows Zekrom + Thundurus to kill it if they slap Eviolite on, also allows Thundurus 2HKO w/o Eviolite). These situations come up a lot, oddly.

    The Zeel-playable EXs from DEX are definitely overhyped, but they are still good - Raikou, for example, is quite good for stalling purposes: drag out an energy-less Zekrom/eel and Volt Bolt something on their bench (eg. Eelektrik), they're now in a bit of a pickle. As for Tornadus EX...it's good. I see no reason to run Zapdos over it, to be quite honest. The lack of Tornadus (both it and the EX) talk in here is odd. I myself never subscribed to usage of Tornadus prior to DEX (Mewtwo + Eviolite beat Terrakion decks, Thundurus is a more consistent T2 attacker), but Tornadus EX gives a huge reason to run Skyarrow, which makes a reactive playstyle possible post-DEX (given that free retreaters in Zeels were all 30 HP and hence terrible atm).

    Terrakion tech is good.

    Energy lines for me have always been 9/4, but I'm testing that heavily now.

    My current decklist:
    [collapse]1 Zekrom
    4 Tynamo (2 para 2 spread)
    3 Eelektrik
    2 Mewtwo EX
    1 Thundurus
    1 Terrakion
    1 Tornadus EX
    2 Smeargle

    15

    7 Lightning
    2 Fighting
    4 DCE

    13

    2 Eviolite
    2 Switch
    3 Dual Ball
    2 Level Ball
    1 Energy Search
    1 Super Rod
    3 Catcher
    4 Junk Arm
    1 Random Receiver
    3 Skyarrow Bridge
    4 Juniper
    3 N
    3 PONT

    32

    One Smeargle interchangeable with Ultra Ball.
    Energy Search interchangeable with Catcher/Lost Remover, but I feel it makes Terrakion viable and helps with Lightning manipulation anyway.[/collapse]

    Still in testing, but it's proved alright so far. I also have a disruptive Raikou EX-centric in testing (w/Terrakion tech) and it's not as consistent, but can be overwhelming mid-game in a way my normal Zeels only wishes it could
  24. Twannes

    Twannes

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    Right now i've been wondering about adding a second eviolite and maybe adding a shaymin UL or an extra Random Receiver over a PONT. Lastly I was thinking of Raikou EX > Tornadus (even though i dont own raikou ex yet, same with shaymin UL. I could also add ANOTHER Tornadus EX, im open for suggestions). Also a quick queston, anyone with a M2EX for trade? I cant seem to get one bar the buying sites (where i think mewtwo is too pricey for my taste). I do own an Archeops Shiny and a Groudon Ex which i don't know what to do with yet ;) This only for Nats since there will be a mewtwo ex tin in fall. So perhaps a suggestion for this list without mewtwo is also fine (as long as it works ;) )

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