Zoroark [QC 3/3] [GP 1/2] [QC Rejection 2/3]

[Magnemite]

All right, so the new strategy dex is going up very soon and there are several Pokemon, including this one, that do not currently have completed analyses. Katakiri, if you could please try to make this look presentable within the next day, that would be helpful. Please contact user darkie once you've made it look presentable (by that I mean "acceptable to be on-site") and refer to and update this pirate pad: https://www.piratepad.ca/p/dex_skeletons

This needs to be done by tomorrow afternoon (GMT -6), so make sure you get it done! If you can't make it look presentable in the next day, please say so in the pirate pad so someone else can make a quick skeleton of it. Thanks!

 

[Katakiri]

darkie This is done. idk if QC or GP wants to pick at it or what but it's presentable at least.

 

[Taehl]

Add that it's better not to use a mega in your last slot. This is because after the mega has mega-evolved, Zoroark still copies the form of the non-evolved mega. So if your opponent pays attention, he can just see if it's the actual mega or Zoroark.

 

[Unowninator]

Add that it's better not to use a mega in your last slot. This is because after the mega has mega-evolved, Zoroark still copies the form of the non-evolved mega. So if your opponent pays attention, he can just see if it's the actual mega or Zoroark.

No, it takes the mega's forme for the Illusion; I've tested this on wild Pokemon w/ Mega Gengar.

 

[Taehl]

No, it takes the mega's forme for the Illusion; I've tested this on wild Pokemon w/ Mega Gengar.

I'm pretty sure it doesn't on showdown.

 

[Unowninator]

I'm pretty sure it doesn't on showdown.

Oh, I don't use showdown.

 

[Colonel M]

No mention of Memento makes me sad - it isn't even in OO. Memento Zoroark allows for a last ditch effort to help set-up sweepers like Mega Mawile and Mega Gyarados.

 

[Katakiri]

I had Memento slashed over Trick on the Scarf set before we removed the set. I loved the option but I've only used it with Scarf. I'll see if it's any better or worse than Trick on the Specs set for a slash. Specs doesn't have the damage-output issues that Scarf did so it can clear Mega Pokemon after some prior damage bar Dark or Fairy-types so I'd image that Trick would be more useful overall since it can cripple Special Walls and non-Mega setup sweepers.

 

[Ash Borer]

In usage tips mention how if Zoroark is not disguised as something that takes the same SR damage as is then its disguise is useless, so mention some anti hazards in team options

Also, for team options. Having zoroark disguise as a pokemon that causes the opponent to be very reactionary, such as Pinsir can be advantageous. Pinsir is an especially good candidate because it has few counters but its counters are quite hard so they will switch in on it 100% of time really.

Zoroark gets focus blast right? Put that somewhere on the specs set, in moves or a slash idc, but it needs to be somewhere so T-tar doesnt laugh at you

Also put a little bit more emphasis on how Zoroark in truth is quite gimmicky and it must be used smartly, or its just useless

other than that, this looks fine QC 2/4

 

[Jukain]

Alright we've actually talked about this as QC: remove every set except SD. This means Specs goes. The biggest selling point of Zoroark is Illusion + setting up for a sweep with that great set of physical Dark STABs. Specs lacks this entirely, and it's not like the damage output is jaw-dropping, at least compared to stuff like Specs Keldeo and even LO Latios. A lot of this is due to the fact that it has low BP moves, and Zoroark is frail, and when you get Illusion with this set, it isn't capitalized upon so well as a setup with SD. Specs is not worth it over other, frankly better, Specs users overall. Remove this set.

 

[Fuzznip]

Can Life Orb be slashed? Zoroark can force switches quite nicely when played right and so I don't think Focus Sash is completely necessary. Also I'm pretty sure +2 LO Knock Off OHKOes Garchomp iirc.

 

[Jukain]

Ah, yes. Definitely agreeing with Fuzznip. Also, Adamant should be deslashed. Despite priority, Zoroark still sits at an incredibly useful base 105 Speed tier that it should be utilizing to the fullest extent possible. Underspeeding threats such as Garchomp, Landorus, Mega Charizard X/Y, and Manaphy is absolutely unacceptable, especially since you need the power of Knock Off to KO some of these threats. Running Jolly also highly decreases the reliance on Sucker Punch, which is extremely good because one missed 50/50 will equate to a dead Zoroark due to its frailty once the Illusion is revealed. I understand that the power boost might be construed as useful and good enough with Sucker Punch, but it really isn't worth underspeeding these threats.

 

[Katakiri]

I've been updating the OP with all your changes.

Not to drag on this thread any longer but I've been playing around with an option over Low Kick and I want QC's thoughts on: Counter.

I'll preface this with I know running Counter on a sweeper in this day and age is heresy but I think it's probably Zoroark's only decent option outside of Low Kick and Low Kick is kinda shit anyway. Low Kick hits Bisharp, Tyranitar, and Heatran but that's pretty much it. With Steel-types being neutral to Dark and all other OU Dark- or Steel-types either being light-weight (Umbreon) or neutral to Low Kick (Mandibuzz), Low Kick is just there because Zoroark's 2nd best coverage move is Return, which I tried recently because it hits Fairy, Dark, & Fighting and was greatly disappointed to see it never KO anything at +2.

Counter of course demands Focus Sash be intact, which means smart use of Illusion to force switches, but it lets Zoroark clear Foul Play Mandibuzz/Umbreon (+2 Zoroark Counter can OHKO Max HP Mandibuzz on Foul Play), Azumarill, Mega Mawile, Landorus-T, Conkeldurr, Terrakion, and pretty much any physical threat that Zoroark has problems with. You can even add Bisharp back onto that list should Iron Head not flinch. That's a hell of a lot more Pokemon than Low Kick but I'll also add that it's far less reliable as one stray hit makes the move go from more useful to completely useless. But, on top of clearing Zoroark's own checks, the team utility of having a revenge check to any physical sweeper that can still operate on 1 HP with its STAB priority is pretty damn nice; not great or even reliable but nice.

If we do anything with Counter, Low Kick is still the safer option and should definitely be listed as such. I don't mean to sound overly negative about Low Kick or overly positive about Counter either if I'm coming off like that, both options are coverage band-aids at best and sub-par ones at that so slashing them together doesn't seem like a terrible idea to me.

 

[Punchshroom]

I always thought that Choice Specs Zoroark utilises Trick to lure out and cripple Pokemon such as Chansey, Azumarill, Mandibuzz, Clefable, etc. permanently, letting its teammates perform unhindered sweeps. That said, it's probably a meh Specs user on its own at best (though it faces very little competition as a Dark-type special attacker outside of Greninja, but the frog shouldn't really go Specs), but just my two cents. I can see why it is dropped, but it needs a notable mention as a crippling lure, since the meta is slower compared to BW's weather wars, which Zoroark can capitalize on.

 

[Unowninator]

I always thought that Choice Specs Zoroark utilises Trick to lure out and cripple Pokemon such as Chansey, Azumarill, Mandibuzz, Clefable, etc. permanently, letting its teammates perform unhindered sweeps. That said, it's probably a meh Specs user on its own at best (though it faces very little competition as a Dark-type special attacker outside of Greninja, but the frog shouldn't really go Specs), but just my two cents. I can see why it is dropped, but it needs a notable mention as a crippling lure, since the meta is slower compared to BW's weather wars, which Zoroark can capitalize on.

How is it meh? With the right Illusion, I'd think you'd be more likely to trick (no pun intended) the opponent into being locked into 1 move on the wrong Pokémon.

 

[Aragorn the King]

move 4: Low Kick

Checks and Counters
========
Most Fairy-type Pokemon wall Zoroark hard and are at best hindered by a Knock Off. Bulky Dark-types, most notably Mandibuzz and Tyranitar

You only mention one set, and that one set includes Low Kick. I'm not really sure Ttar is the best pokemon to mention here, as Zoroark should always have a Fighting coverage move, as you say in the set.

 

[Alter]

I don't really see Counter as a great option because

a) your opponent must use a physical attack that turn
b) zoroark's focus sash pretty much must be intact for it to succeed
c) it only works once and then the gimmick is dead (and puts zoroark at an uncomfortable low % of health)

Low Kick at least guarantees that you'll be able to get around Tyranitar and the like, which Counter can't really assure.

Your checks and counters section should also be in the new gen 6 format in which you separate the checks and counters into categories. For a Pokemon as unique as Zoroark, an opening statement in this section about "countering it" being a difficult task due to its ability should also be added. It's impossible to tell exactly when Zoroark comes out a lot of the time because of team preview Pokemon placement. I also agree with Punchshroom in that Specs Zoroark is mainly considerable because of Illusion + Trick being so deadly and hard to predict. That being said, its damage output is by no means godly so I wouldn't care if this set remains scrapped.

 

[PyroTakun]

Would U-Turn be worth a mention somewhere? Maybe slashed by Swords Dance for going out to a check/counter after you got a Knock-Off or Sucker-Punch in and want to save Zoroark for another use. There'd definitely be a big loss in power, but I think the annoyance factor might be a fair trade.

If anything, it deserves a mention in other options.

 

[Jukain]

Katakiri you can write this up, excellent work EDIT: err yeah gp time :]

QC Approved 3/3

 

[AccidentalGreed]

But this is already written lol

This will be in the copyediting stage now.

 

[Ash Borer]

Thank you for your effort Katakiri, but the standard of rejection has become more rigid, and Zoroark's flaws of massive frailty, inability to deal with Fairy types, and in general being outclassed by other physical attackers is not enough to outweigh the often unsuccessful illusion ability.

QC reject 1/3

 

[MyNameIsVeryCreative]

Night daze should never be used. Ever. It shouldn't even be in OO. Why you may ask? Because it's Zoroark's signature move, which means if you use it the opponent will instantly know it's a Zoroark in disguise. All the other moves such as swords dance, knock off, dark pulse, flamethrower, lowkick, can all be learned by lots of Pokemon, which will make it more difficult to tell if it's a Zoroark or not.

 

[Unowninator]

Night daze should never be used. Ever. It shouldn't even be in OO. Why you may ask? Because it's Zoroark's signature move, which means if you use it the opponent will instantly know it's a Zoroark in disguise. All the other moves such as swords dance, knock off, dark pulse, flamethrower, lowkick, can all be learned by lots of Pokemon, which will make it more difficult to tell if it's a Zoroark or not.

What if none of your other Pokemon can learn Dark Pulse?

 

[mikelos]

u

What if none of your other Pokemon can learn Dark Pulse?

use something else that can dark pulse a huge spread of stuff that learn it

 

[MyNameIsVeryCreative]

What if none of your other Pokemon can learn Dark Pulse?

Then don't go for dark pulse, either that or change up your team a bit.