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Zoroark

Discussion in 'BW OU' started by jumpluff, Sep 19, 2010.

  1. jumpluff

    jumpluff princess
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    [​IMG] [​IMG]
    #571 - Zoroark - Dark
    60 HP / 105 Atk / 60 Def / 120 SpA / 60 SpD / 105 Spe (510 BST)

    Illusion
    Illusion will change the appearance of the Pokémon to a different species. This is dependent on Pokémon in the player's party.

    Acid Bomb, Aerial Ace, Agility, Ankle Sweep, Attract, Back Out, Calm Mind, Captivate, Claw Sharpen, Complete Burn, Counter, Cut, Dark Pulse, Detect, Dig, Double Team, Embargo, Extrasensory, Facade, Faint Attack, Flamethower, Fling, Focus Blast, Frustration, Fury Swipes, Get Even, Giga Impact, Grass Knot, Hidden Power, Hyper Beam, Imprison, Leer, Memento, Nasty Plot, Night Burst, Night Slash, Payback, Protect, Psych Up, Punishment, Pursuit, Rain Dance, Rest, Return, Roar, Rock Smash, Scary Face, Scratch, Shadow Ball, Shadow Claw, Snatch, Substitute, Sunny Day, Swagger, Swords Dance, Taunt, Thief, Torment, Toxic, Troll, U-turn

    Legend: Bolded are significant moves. Italicised are competitively good moves that might have niche use but are outclassed / not really relevant (for example, it's a Dark-type! Doesn't need Shadow Ball).

    Separated by learning method (open)
    U-turn, Scratch, Leer, Pursuit, Claw Sharpen, Pursuit, Fury Swipes, Faint Attack, Scary Face, Taunt, Acid Bomb, Night Slash, Torment, Agility, Embargo, Punishment, Nasty Plot, Imprison, Night Burst

    Claw Sharpen, Calm Mind, Roar, Toxic, Hidden Power, Sunny Day, Taunt, Hyper Beam, Protect, Rain Dance, Frustration, Return, Dig, Shadow Ball, Double Team, Flamethower, Aerial Ace, Torment, Facade, Rest, Attract, Thief, Ankle Sweep, Troll, Focus Blast, Fling, Complete Burn, Embargo, Shadow Claw, Payback, Get Even, Giga Impact, Swords Dance, Psych Up, Grass Knot, Swagger, U-Turn, Substitute, Rock Smash, Back Out, Cut

    Detect, Captivate, Dark Pulse, Snatch, Memento, Shadow Claw, Extrasensory, Counter


    New move descriptions (open)
    Name - Category - Type - PP - Base Power - Acc - Effect
    Acid Bomb - Special Poison 20 - 40 - 100 - Sharply lowers Special Defense.
    Ankle Sweep - Physical - Fighting - 20 - 60 - 100 - Decreases opponent's Speed by 1 stage.
    Back Out - Special - Dark - 15 - 55 - 95 - May decrease opponent's Special Attack by 1 stage.
    Claw Sharpen - Other - Dark 15 - --- - --- -Raises Atk and Acc 1 stage.
    Complete Burn - Special - Fire 15 - 30 -100 - Removes the target's Berry.
    Get Even - Physical - Normal - 5 - 70 - 100 - Deals more damage if teammate was KO'd last turn.
    Night Burst - Special - Dark 10 - 85 - 95 - May decrease opponent's Accuracy by 1 stage.
    Troll - Special - Normal - 15 - 60 - 100 - Raises Base Power the more Pokemon you have with the attack.

    Nasty Plot

    Zoroark @ Life Orb / Expert Belt / Lum Berry
    Timid
    4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
    -Nasty Plot
    -Dark Pulse
    -Focus Blast
    -Taunt / Flamethrower / Substitute

    The main problem with this set is that, bar Illusion, it's unfortunately outclassed by Darkrai. It's even frailer than Darkrai. :( However, Taunt lets you set up on Blissey and other defensive types, while Flamethrower gives you a better alternative than Focus Blast against incoming Scizor / Skarmory / Heracross? / etc. Dark Pulse and Focus Blast get amazing coverage side by side. We're not totally sure how Illusion works yet, but you could use it to force a switch by bluffing and Nasty Plot as it goes.

    Swords Dance

    Zoroark @ Life Orb / Expert Belt / Lum Berry
    Jolly
    4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
    - Swords Dance
    - Night Slash
    - Ankle Sweep
    - Taunt

    Unfortunately, Zoroark's physical movepool is lacking compared to its special movepool; I feel this is a case where we won't get a new Lucario. Ankle Sweep is its best non-STAB option, and its base power is mediocre, though it has a nice secondary effect.

    Choice Scarf

    Zoroark @ Choice Scarf
    Timid
    4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
    - Dark Pulse
    - Flamethrower
    - Focus Blast
    - Hidden Power Ice / U-turn

    Utilises Zoroark's great base Speed to revenge kill things like weakened Jirachi, Garchomp, etc. HP Ice is for Dragon-types, though you can use U-turn instead for scouting / hazard damage.

    Commentary

    With solid offensive stats, boosting moves, and a handy speed that puts it before the monkeys, Garchomp, and the base 100s, Zoroark looks like a pretty serviceable sweeper. Its ability is just plain awesome, though we don't know how it works or how to harness it. You could use it to trap things with a bluff, or, for example, pretending to be something that lures a Shanderaa or other Ghost, then hitting it damn hard with a Dark-type STAB. If this is possible, Zoroark is a great Shanderaa check. However, it's also frail, and has a limited physical movepool. Furthermore, apart from Illusion, it's basically outclassed by the faster, stronger, and better-movepooled Darkrai.
  2. Ryanide

    Ryanide

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    We actually do know how his ability works. It always chooses the second pokemon in your party, counting Zoroark as being the 1st when it's sent out.
  3. jumpluff

    jumpluff princess
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    Someone on IRC told me that it behaved differently in their game, but I'll edit that in, as it's unconfirmed.
  4. Denchura

    Denchura

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    I don't understand the lack of hype about Zoroark, this thing looks beastly. Basically like a better lucario but with out extremespeed, which is a big deal, however with 105 speed it might not need it.

    Illusion sounds great/interesting, they switch out and bring in a counter for something that isn't even in the field of play while you get a nasty plot in and they still don't know it's zoroark.

    Quite a deep movepool, maybe lacking on the physical side but how many things can take a +2 nightslash/nightburst? It also has taunt to wreck dedicated walls if you're feeling brave.

    It may suffer with mono typing and being really fragile like alakazam, even still it's going to be a threat.

    This and you wrote attack twice in the stats if that matters.
  5. storm

    storm

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    So it just ahs the appearance of the second mpokemon in your party? and its name? Or would i have to nickname it? It doesnt get stats or anything just appearance right?
  6. KnightoftheWind

    KnightoftheWind
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    Darkrai isn't Uber in Gen 5 yet. A Pokemon's performance in Gen 4 does not completely hold true in Gen 5 as well.

    Onto Zoroark, I mentioned in IRC once or twice about the possibility of lead Zoroark. Basically, it utilises Illusion to its fullest extent by disguising Zoroark as a Pokemon whose weaknesses Zoroark resists (Gengar is an excellent choice of disguise, since Zoroark resists / is immune to all of Gengar's weaknesses, and Gengar provides the same service to Zoroark. Typical Pokemon that are weak to Psychic such as Roserade are also prime choices). When the first turn comes around, you can take out the opponent's lead when they attempt to defeat Zoroark thinking they have the advantage. With the actual moveset itself, something along the lines of Dark Pulse / Focus Blast / U-turn / Taunt should work fine.
  7. Chou Toshio

    Chou Toshio @Fighting Necktie
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    Honestly, I don't see Zoroark doing much with Nasty Plot/Swords Dance (actually, I don't see Zoroark doing much period unless Illusion turns out to be totally broken).

    It's basically a slower, weaker weavile by the looks of it. :/ Actually, more like Infernape, because Nape has better typing, speed, defensive stats, and with STAB fighting and 120-140 based Fire attacks, will always be hitting things harder in general.



    Nasty Plot/Swords Dance have to be considered in conjunction with speed and defensive stats-- the stats that let you survive turns and therefore, make the sweep.

    Honestly, any sweep depending on natural speed alone is bound to fail in the long run. Even much faster pokemon like Azelf and Weavile failed to effectively use Swords Dance because they simply cannot beat CS users and powerful Priority users in the long run. Infernape, who has better speed, better defenses and better attacking type (has good dual STAB) could never succeed with either move.

    In fact, despite pretty wide distribution, you can count the pokemon who actually had successful NP/Swords Dance sweeping sets in all of 4th Gen's OU history on your hand:

    Garchomp, Manaphy, Lucario, Scizor

    That's it. No one else could make the moves work. Garchomp and Manaphy were statistically some of the bulkiest pokemon in OU and good speed stats to pull the sweep through, also possessing good defensive typing, and excellent STAB (Water and Dragon are best STAB types in the game).

    Lucario and Scizor used their Steel resistances to successfully get Swords Dance off, and from there had to depend on insanely powerful priority moves in order to jump to an unnatural level of speed-- one that no one could beat except with extremely weak unboosted priority attacks.

    Frankly, Scizor's kind of iffy too-- CB was always the more popular (and better) set.

    The point is that making SD/NP sets work in OU is extremely difficult, and frankly Zoroark lacks all the necessary equipment . . .


    Unable to succeed with a boosted sweep, its only remaining options are wallbreaking-- either with Pursuit or Mixed-Attacking . . . where it is outclassed by Tyranitar and Infernape respectively . . .

    Only time will tell, but right now I'd have to say "outclassed by Infernape." :/



    Speaking of Infernape, Infernape has a nice resistance to Steel. Pretty much every Zoroark will need HP Fire or an extreme investment to special for Focus Blast if it wants to be viable in a metagame with Scizor.
  8. ginganinja

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    @Denchura

    Gen 5 Tiers are not sorted/created so comparing it to Darkrai is not a horriable thing to do

    Personally I think Substitute is worth a look since otherwise priority will stop any attempts at a sweep.

    EDIT Half my post got Ninjaed by Knight

    EDIT 2 at ChouToshio

    Could you not argue that Infernape could run SD and NP sets well?

    Certainly I would imagine it got more use than SD Scizor
  9. Lee

    Lee @ Thick Club
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    Illusion seems to have the potential for some incredible mind-games. I'll hold off theorymonning a hundred different uses for it until we know exactly how it works though.

    Beyond that, unfortunately, Zoroark seems to be a forgettable Pokemon. His movepool just doesn't match up well enough with his stats, all of his attacks are fairly low BP, his physical Atk stat seems to be quite wasted, poor typing both offensively and defensively, frail as hell. His success depends entirely on Illusion imo...if you can bluff well and fool the opponent then he has the capacity to cause serious damage to the opponent in a way different from anything we've seen. KotW mentioned Gengar as an 'Illusion Partner' and although that works great typewise they do share quite similar counters (Blissey, Snorlax, that kind of thing). Perhaps something like I dunno...Choice Specs Zoroark + Machamp. When the opponent sees Machamp, they're sure as hell not going to go to Blissey...they're much more likely to go to a Ghost, a bulky Psychic or a general physical wall with high Def and low SpD. Firing off a Choice Specs Dark Pulse in this scenario would be very rewarding, potentially KOing and at very least crippling an important member of the opponents team (and leaving the way clear for Machamp to capitalise on the removal of his opponent's counter/check).

    Very interesting Pokemon indeed.
  10. Denchura

    Denchura

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    If it's as good as alakazam i'll be happy, Illusion will be the most telling factor. No matter what tier it's in his going to have an impact with such an offensive stat spread.
  11. jumpluff

    jumpluff princess
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    I'm not terribly sure about Weavile. Zoroark is a special threat so it's more comparable to Darkrai, and gets higher base power moves as a special attacker. Physically it's most likely outclassed by Weavile, yes. You're probably right (Chou) about Infernape. I think it all hangs on Illusion.

    I don't think Zoroark is going to live up to what I hoped for it before the games up, but I'm definitely going to give it a try. KotW's lead strategy is one thing that gives me hope that Zoroark can find a niche. I like the set you've proposed but I'm not sure what it can actually do as a lead other than convince a few things to stay in; it's a shame that Snatch can't get Stealth Rock. I considered a mix set but I couldn't think of a good one at the time, if anyone has one to suggest..?
  12. Chou Toshio

    Chou Toshio @Fighting Necktie
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    No, you cannot argue that SD/NP Infernape is good. It's just . . . no . . . it's not . . . Infernape has so many sets that far exceed SD/NP in usability.

    The only reason I could even think you would use SD with Infernape is because of Mach Punch, which frankly, with no Techinician and coming from Infernape's mediocre 104 ATK (comparing this to Scizor or Lucario) it's just . . . not hitting hard enough . . .

    Once you get Mach Punch and SD you are either forfeiting Close Combat (which you pretty much need with Infernape) or Stone Edge (meaning you will have forgettable coverage). If you don't use a fire attack than Lucario is definitely better than you already. :/

    Also, I mentioned this too:

    So the only "truly" successful SD/NP pokemon of 4th Gen were Garchomp, Lucario and Manaphy (in that order).


    Also, regardless of how crappy/not crappy NP/SD Infernape is, that doesn't change the fact that Zoroark is definitely crappier.
  13. Max_LKC

    Max_LKC

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    Illusion takes the appearance of the second poke in your party but its typing movepool and stat are same as the real zoroark not the illusion poke, once it has taken damage(dont know whether entry hazards or damage from status, recoils counts) it will revert back to its original self. I saw this on some site forgot the website, which means this ability is to ''bluff'' your opponents, letting them choose the wrong attack for per time use switch in, I can see this using with U-turn well, because your opponent will have a hard time figuring out whether is zoroark or the other poke.
  14. DoubleLucky

    DoubleLucky

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    Hm..Seeing Zoro like that, makes it seem like he'll be an awesome Paranoia worker, think about it, Everyone might start expecting that the first pokemon will be Zoro in disguise, then people will have to weigh questions like, Should i try Focus Blast on it even if it looks like Gengar? Can i risk a Psychic/Dark/Ghost on it without getting a huge beat down? It seems like it can really make up for the lower movepool to screw with others and mess up tactics to get free shots in.
  15. Chou Toshio

    Chou Toshio @Fighting Necktie
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    I agree a lead set could be rather trippy. This thing is dying for a priority move. :/
  16. Max_LKC

    Max_LKC

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  17. Nosferalto

    Nosferalto We're all gonna make it
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    I think most of the opinions already posted summed up my feelings about Zoroark pretty well. Stat wise, it is certainly good. However when you take a closer look at the movepool, it seems lackluster. Having to rely on moves like Focus Blast, Ankle Sweep and low BP moves is a bit disheartening. However, it's not a bad Pokemon by no means and with it's unique ability it might live up to it's expectations.

    I was thinking a Mixed LO set could work. It has a lot of options Night Slash / Flamethrower / Taunt / U-Turn / Pursuit / Grass Knot. Ankle Sweep might work but it's low BP means that it doesn't do enough damage against Blissey. Thoughts?
  18. NDenizen

    NDenizen

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    I'm quite excited for Zoroark, as I can see him being one of those pokemon whos uses change with the metagame itself - if a pokemon with a very similar moveset to him appears, but is of the poison or ghost typing, then illusion gets some great usage. I see that ability as more significant to him than his stats, which are already great in themselves.

    I'm very glad that his Special Attack is the greater here, as the majority of ghosts are special attackers, providing him lots of disguises - Shadow Ball especially means he can pass himself off as a Ghost.

    Substitute I can imagine being a superb move on Zoroark, allowing him to maintain his disguise longer, though on a lead it would look a bit suspicious, as would other moves the pokemon clearly does not have. Swagger and U-Turn also would allow the disguise to stay on for longer.

    Here's a few ideas:

    Zorogar
    Disguise: Gengar

    Zoroark @ Life Orb
    Timid
    4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
    - Shadow Ball
    - Focus Blast
    - Flamethrower
    - Dark Pulse / Hidden Power Psychic / Hidden Power Flying

    This is obviously meant to take the opponent by surprise, as you're clearly using Gengar's moves. As stated before, Gengar is the perfect disguise - Dark resists Dark and Ghost, is immune to Psychic, and nobody is going to want to use Bug or Fighting moves on a Ghost. Gengar's Levitate also means the opponent will refrain from ground moves.
    It's a shame Zoro doesn't get Energy Ball or Thunderbolt, as these would complete his disguise, however Focus Blast is a great move. Shadow Ball is there for disguise purposes, naturally - you may want to stick Dark Pulse on Zoroark in the case that your disguise has been removed, to get that STAB, as there really aren't many other moves that correspond with common Gengar sets. Flamethrower isn't on Gengar move either, but it does provide accurate coverage against steels and bugs. Hidden Power would be a great move to cover those Fighting and Bug types, but Psychic may be a better choice to get those Poison types, with Flamethrower covering Bug and Grass respectively.

    Zorocune / Zorotic
    Disguise: Suicune or Milotic

    Zoroark @ Leftovers
    - Substitute
    - Calm Mind
    - Dark Pulse
    - Flamethower / Hidden Power Ground / Hidden Power Psychic / Hidden Powers Flying

    The objective here would obviously be to feign a Bulky Water powering up, maybe forcing the opponent to switch or attack with a neutral damaging move. This is where Substitute gets some more usage, as it's not uncommon or unreasonable to see on such a pokemon, and keeps your disguise. Calm Mind is the move to use here, and then you have stab in the form of Dark Pulse. Flamethrower takes care of Grass pokemon that switch in, but they may not bother due to the threat of Ice Beam. Hidden Power Ground should be able to nail any electric types that switch in, and the other Hidden Powers are again there for post-disguise coverage. A lack of Ice Beam is a shame, though.

    _ _ _

    Obviously, if common Zoro sets gained usage, people would start predicting differently, allowing you to run genuine Gengars and other ghosts with a bit of bluff (Gengar with Dark Pulse, for example, could get the opponent using the wrong moves). Another great use would be bringing in your actual pokemon, possibly with U-Turn, and then later on bringing Zoroark with its disguise, feigning a U-Turn - instead you hit with a completely unexpected move. This would especially work well with pokemon that have Regenerate as their ability and have at least 66% HP before switching out, as the HP wouldn't be a discerning factor anymre.
    I think that style of play for Zoroark mid-game would certainly work better than obviously suspect ghost leads. In the case that Zoro MUST be a lead, you can switch him out instantly feigning a worthy opponent, or by disguising yourself as a U-Turner - in which case Choice Scarf could work well on Zoro.

    But yeah, i'm interested to see what other ideas people come up with.
  19. conway

    conway

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    I think that zoroark's ability can be very good, but it also has it's flaws. As soon as your bluf is over, which will probably be already from turn 1, your opponent does not only knows that that is zoroark, but he also knows one of your other pokemon. This will allow your opponent to predict better earlier in the game, and also allows him to better know wich ones he needs to conserve later in the game to win and to learn your strategy beter and faster. This is why i think Zoroark is better not used as a lead but more later in the game.
  20. Soda

    Soda

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    It has decent stats and a decent movepool (it should have an amazing one for bluffing) and that's all it really needs since its main draw imo is Illusion... Have it be disguised as Shedinja :zaru
  21. Pratty

    Pratty

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    This thing doesn't seem too great. 60/60/60 makes it so FRAGILE and it lacks Lucario's useful 4x resistances or the important Extremespeed which gives it counter-priority and a way to beat some CSers.

    It's best will use will be either a Bander for STAB Dark + Pursuit + U-Turn or a revenge killing Scarfer. It doesn't have the defenses to sweep.
  22. IcyMan28

    IcyMan28

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    I really like the scarf set on Zoroark. While it doesn't provide much in the way of Illusion abuse, its movepool is wide enough to revenge a variety of threats. Night Burst is STAB and can pick off weaker threats with its good SpA, HP Ice hits the dragon, Flamethrower works excellently alongside the former two moves to hits Steel types, and the last slot will be based more on what your team requires. Grass Knot for water and ground types, U-Turn to scout, and Memento provides an interesting option to help a setup sweeper late-game when Zoroark is no longer needed.
  23. Swagodile

    Swagodile

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    Let's say you have Gengar in your second slot. When Zoroark is sent out, it will take the form of Gengar. Now let's say you send out the real Gengar later on, and switch with, let's say, Toxicroak. Toxicroak is now in the second slot, meaning that next time Zoroark comes out, it will take the form of Toxicroak instead of Gengar.

    Basically, you'll never know whether you're fighting Zoroark or the real deal, since Zoroark also copies the name of the Pokemon it's impersonating.
  24. sb879

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    Another way to utilize lead Zoroark would be with using something like a Bronzong with the same set you have listed. I never used Bronzong, so my assumptions could be mistaken, but I always assumed that suicide leads would Taunt it, bulkier leads would set up Stealth Rock since Bronzong can't Taunt them, and Roserade would just Sleep Powder or set up Toxic Spikes.

    Anyways, the general theory behind this is to trick suicide leads into Taunting as you U-Turn away into a faster Pokemon, forcing them to either die or set up Stealth Rock later, both of which defeat the point of using a suicide lead in the first place. Vs the slow leads, you can Taunt them without worrying about taking an Earthquake to the face to a large extent, and you can do the same to Roserade. Obviously you'd just U-Turn after that. This doesn't work at all vs Machamp leads, though >_>
  25. Thorhammer

    Thorhammer

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    But not the HP.

    At least, I assume.

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