I'm just saying mewtwo / deoxys could be fun to use / play against and psychic could still suck or be middling. To me trying things sounds more fun than engaging in a philosophy war or doing endless calcs. If the game sucks with those two my intuition says it will be abundantly obvious and I would be on the team rioting for their removal. "What imbecile thought this was a good idea?!"I summed up what Wincon was saying earlier in the Monotype room. Even if you unbanned Deoxys (, not
), Psychic would still be bad. The suggestion and approach were bold and wild but I believe what he’s saying is more aligned with what TTK was saying earlier about Booster Energy.
However, Peng listed the Paradox mons that probably would either A.) Not want to use Booster over their current set(s), or B.) Still wouldn’t have a place on their types or in the meta with Booster.
That being said, I’d like to briefly mention NatDex Mono for the sake of asking a couple questions.
Following up on the recent NDMPL survey, our next course of action would be to unban Hoopa-Unbound. This sentiment is supported by the NDM survey results (to be posted soon).
Hoopa-Unbound is quite the Pokémon. Boasting excellent mixed offensive stats with a non-negligible Special Defense to back it up (notably surviving a Moonblast from Choice Scarf Tapu Lele), it can be a great asset for Dark and Psychic teams. It provides a secondary special attacker, only shared by Greninja, Hydreigon, and Galarian Moltres for Dark teams, and a secondary...
With enough support, NDM unbanned Hoopa-Unbound to see if it would fit in the meta while not being broken. Almost 2 weeks later, Hoopa was rebanned and deemed still too strong for the metagame. The only way that conclusion could have been met was through hands on experience. Sure you can theorize something is balanced/unbalanced but until you have firsthand experience with or against the banned element in question, that’s all it is. Just theory.
So, this is the question I want to ask: if a mon were unbanned to see if it’s too strong or not and it turns out it is then reban it, how bad would that feel?
The other question is most likely what nomadderwhat and Wincon are posing to the community: what unbans could we have that still wouldn’t change how bad the bad types are?
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Metagame SV Monotype Metagame Discussion [Indigo Disk]
- Thread starter Rio Vidal
- Start date
The repeated callout by mostly everyone is that the tier is balanced, and that there arent many explicit threats (can still be a topic of discussion though). Most of these suggestions to unban things stem from a combination of boredom + people playing the tier too much. If its too much for you to handle, go do something else. Dont fix whats not broken.
If you're saying that you believe this is now the best possible game and changes would always be in the negative direction, I respect that and very likely you are right. For me, I'm just saying there could be a cool rainbow if we walk over there. I think the council and those involved have done a great job. To me competitiveness and balance and fun go hand in hand in hand. I'm hesitant to call suggestions criminal when their true intent was to look and see if there are any improvements to be had. It is good to have people having fun thinking and enjoying a tier, coocoo or crown thirsty.
Oh no! I saved the Deoxys Unban Post reactions for posterity!
Few comments on it.
By Wincon's argument you could say some dumb bs like unban shed tail, since the winner of the 8 person tour with super rushed teams didn't have a shed tail team. Unless I'm mistaken and he was actually spamming multiple unban Deo A tours throughout the day, the tour which had it unbanned also had like 5 other unbans including Gambit, Ursa BM, and Shed Tail, so it's not even a representation of what the mono meta would be with Deo added in.
So just to further clarify for people. When he says "no one even gave it a try", he's not even talking about a tour where only Deoxys-A was unbanned. It was an 8 person roomtour, where the people who did manage to make a team ended up with super rushed builds, and on top of it there was also Shed Tail, Gambit, and Ursa BM unbanned, meaning naturally much of what was used was shit like Shed Tail grass and Ursa BM ground. It would be a disingenuous argument even if it was just Deoxys partially since alot of people tend to not finish making teams for these tours/missing that it's unbanned, but also because any tour where only Deoxys is unbanned is naturally going to use shit that doesn't lose to Deoxys if there's genuine prep for it.
Gonna also have to add, no, not every good team has a scarfer. Even just ignoring shit like Poison, Stall Water, and Stall Fly, it is common knowledge to any builder that you can drop running a scarf if you believe your ability to maintain speed control with priority options and high speed tiers is adept enough. You see this with Sun Fire, for example, where the common build has Ceruledge as a stopgate as well as priority from both Cinderace and Ceruledge. You also see teams like Fighting drop their scarfer too at times, with scarfless Scrafty Fighting with unburden Sneasler being seen in last MWP, I can find the team/replay if you want though this isn't unique to just those 2 types, or even just this generation either. A personal favorite example of this is with Gen 6 Bug where even scarfless + webless offense had alot of merit, and though the meta has shifted since I considered that the best way to use bug, it's still not like you need a scarf on webs builds.
There's also a huge contradiction in your argument. You make the assumption that Psy Terrain is necessary for Deo to be broken, which is implied by the consistent focus on identifying how Psy Terrain can be handled, but the idea that Deo-A needs Psy Terrain is just not the case. Even outside of Psy Terrain it fully is one shotting every single neutral as even 100/100 mons like Manaphy are OHKOd by Psycho Boost. That being said, you simultaneously argue that A: Priority is a good answer, and B: Deoxys is psy terrain dependent or needs the terrain boost to be busted. Aside from the fact that Deo doesn't need Psy terrain as I said, there's the built in contradiction in your argument where you assume that Psy Terrain isn't active when answering Deo, considering the fact that Priority doesn't work when terrain is active.
I will also point out, you're not only ignoring the teams cooked completely by Deoxys and the lack of variety that would result from this, but are also pretty unimaginative imo as far as what Deoxys can actually run. As someone who's fought in the trenches of ladder, I know for a fact that people rocking this shit on ladder are going to be silly as fuck. When you have a mon with 180/180 offenses and 150 speed they're going to find justification in anything. If you wanted to, you could slap a band on Deo-a for example, make it 252+ attack, and have a literal OHKO roll on greninja from max hp with E-Speed. Add in some hazards and you literally OHKO or have an OHKO roll on every single offensive dark that isn't Bisharp or holding an HDB. Similarly, Rain will get absolutely cooked if there's no basculegion, even without hazards barra just gets one shot by E Speed like this. Also, even if Deo A can't switch into anything, it sure as shit forces shit out, so chances are when you have Deo vs. Water and it comes in on a specs greninja after a team mate dies you'll fully be able to get a sub off which could be GG right there depending on movepool. Deoxys A also is more powerful than Specs Deoxys-S even when Deo A has no held item, which means yeah, if you wanted to you could just scarf this shit and have a mon that's faster and stronger than Deo S while reaching many more important damage rolls. What's crazy is that even with no item you can still just one shot Flutter Mane from full even outside of terrain.
This means something you might have to account for is Scarf Deo A in Psy Terrain so uh...
252 SpA Deoxys-Attack Expanding Force (120 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Flutter Mane in Psychic Terrain: 250-295 (99.6 - 117.5%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO
nice scarf buddy.
Also, Deo-A can just do the funny terrain into ebutton bro shit that people spammed on Deo-S when that first released. Here's a funny calc:
252 SpA Choice Specs Deoxys-Attack Expanding Force (120 BP) vs. 252 HP / 244+ SpD Corviknight in Psychic Terrain: 196-231 (49 - 57.7%) -- 57.4% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Literally zero switchins on fly unless you're adding a dark bird.
Also clarifying for the people that don't know better, no, this is not how tiering works. You don't unban the most obviously brokens of all time to try and give a bad type a pick me up.The next Pokemon that I think deserves a suspectand by proxy its
form as well. Both these Pokemon would be huge boons for Psychic and would validate Psychic’s place in the metagame.
This is literally what we do at the start of every dlc. How do you think I ended up spamming GodGaleo with ID + CM on ladder to see what just lost on preview LOL.
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I do wanna add, this was done before. I vividly recall we allowed Solgaleo just to see, and even back then I advocated that this was a good thing to see. I just disagreed it as the wrong time because if I recall correctly they did right when DLC dropped so the tier was very tumultuous. These things usually don't last more than a few weeks at best. If the tier is perfectly balanced, is this not the perfect time to experiment with these types of suspect tests from time to time?
@ing the two of you cause holy shit how did we lose the plot. Read from me, and you will fucking learn.
It doesn't matter if the tier is balanced, for a mon to be unbanned there needs to be reason to believe that something has changed either with power creep/limitations on the mon that would allow it to no longer be broken. I'm not even against the idea of unbans if there's actually validity to the reasoning. There isn't any here. We're not going to unban a mon that can one shot any neutral at will like Deoxys, just as we're not going to unban Mono Rock Jesus.
You think Arceus isn't going to be busted? You got better physical bulk than Hippowdon, better special bulk than clodsire, multiple different setup options, priority, and the best coverage options in the game. What's a mono fly to a sub calm mind judgement tbolt Arceus Ice behind Aurora Veil?
Instead what we have from you two is:
a: A complete misunderstanding of how tiering works in monotype. It's pretty clearly stated not to show favoritism to types, and in that line of thought there isn't going to be Electric Jesus unbanned to save electric. There isn't going to be Ice Jesus unbanned to save Ice. There isn't going to be Space DNA Covid with Psycho Boost to save Psy. More than 5 mins of thought process shows it isn't a good idea, and we also know it's not a good idea because -
b: WE'VE TRIED THIS ALREADY, IT DOESN'T WORK. Read the book on monotype lore and you will know once upon a time the monotype tiering philosophy was completely different, where back in the day the tier genuinely tried to lift up every type. Specifically, I'm talking about Gen 6. Before Monotype became an official tier, type bans were a thing where we could unban pokemon that were dual type to see if there weren't busted on just one type. Aegislash Ghost for example, as well as Kyu-White Ice, Shaymin-Sky Grass, Genesect Bug, etc. Even if grass was still a D tier type with Shaymin, by the time Monotype became an official tier when these types of complex bans became illegal, every single one of those busted mons had gotten banned for being overtly uncompetitive with the exception at the time of Aegislash on Ghost.
To that end, even if Rock is still just a C tier type with Arceus-Rock, I guarantee you that people will still be screaming it's broken and get it banned because again - a mon with better physical bulk than Hippo, better special bulk than clodsire, reliable recovery, sand boost on special d, priority, will o wisp, multiple setup options, and crazy coverage, will 10000% be an uncompetitive nightmare. All the while, the argument I'm seeing is not at all coming from the perspective that these mons aren't busted. Rather, you're all saying that because these types aren't busted, we should allow for them to use beyond busted mons.
Going forward, if you want to unban a mon, at least come from the perspective of explaining how that mon is not busted. Showcase why Electric Jesus with 120/120/120 bulk and 120 speed and 120 offenses doesn't completely cook fighting with will o, recover, and boltbeam, or how it wouldn't be an absolute humiliation ritual to try and get past Arceus-Ice with flying or ground.
I'll also point out, I'm really not a fan of the idea of just unbanning whatever you feel like for the temporary dopamine boost that comes from using cracked mons. Especially with major tournaments right around the corner, this is all rather unproductive because nobody's going to want to deal with a competitive scene where we just randomly dropped Miraidon for no reason into the teambuilder. Even the example used before with Solgaleo is kinda missing the fact that though it was unbanned just to see with DLC2, I believe multiple council members stated they missed some of it's setup options it had which is why they considered unbanning in the first place. To put it simply, Solgaleo which doesn't even have the speed tier, bulk, or coverage options of Arceus was unbanned under the false notion that it lacked the setup options to become the extremely uncompetitive mon that it turned out to be.
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Rather than balancing the point is not to have things banned that don't have to be. I'm not really a fan of arceus because of how many items we would have to ban then, but deoxys shouldn't be thought of to balance psychic. It should be a question of does it really matter that it is banned or not? More mons the merrier, especially if it is a positive influence. If it is annoying like espathra then remove it, but to me out of anything possible deoxys regular and mewtwo are possibly positive additions to the game. I didn't like iron bundle because water would get him, solgaleo would be crazy, but deoxys and mewtwo could be crazy, maybe not.
I know I sound angry in that previous post, but I will say I actually do really enjoy building at the moment and feel like there's a decent amount of space to innovate as well. I guess it's upsetting people are trying to do nonsense unbans when there's genuinely alot still to explore with what we have. Obviously Deo is going to be busted. Obviously Mewtwo is going to be busted. Obviously Arceus is going to be busted. I get that your bored, but actively making the tier uncompetitive for 2 weeks at a time when I feel like there genuinely is alot still to explore is pretty upsetting if we're being honest. Usually a meta is boring when there doesn't seem to be anything more to do, and I'm glad that this isn't the case, seemingly from both bottom tier types but as well some of the top types I thought were figured out. I also recognize that if I'm able to notice new ideas and things that work at the moment, than others for sure have as well, which all together is making me excited for the MWP right around the corner. People like to gatekeep for these tours after all.
Also I don't think saying the tier is the best it can be is the general consensus. Especially considering how things look a year ago, I'm kinda surprised there's never been a glisc suspect, it of course still has it's haters though I don't really think it needs to go. The most notable meta change I'd really seen become the norm otherwise is just everyone being high on alomomola with semi stall water becoming one of the most common variants I see of the build atm.
Also I don't think saying the tier is the best it can be is the general consensus. Especially considering how things look a year ago, I'm kinda surprised there's never been a glisc suspect, it of course still has it's haters though I don't really think it needs to go. The most notable meta change I'd really seen become the norm otherwise is just everyone being high on alomomola with semi stall water becoming one of the most common variants I see of the build atm.
May peace always be in monotype! Yeah I'm not trying to wreck anyone's day. I happen to like siding with the optimistic adventurers, but believe me the last thing I desire is to ruin a game people really love playing. Personally, I think those who want those beasts are very optimistic, but certainly they are bold, and I don't like faulting that. If everyone is saying, hey maybe not today, or tomorrow, I really like this game. I'm good, I like it too!
"Obviously Deo is going to be busted. Obviously Mewtwo is going to be busted. Obviously Arceus is going to be busted."
To me it's not automatically obvious that some of these mons are going to be busted. Like sure Arceus-ice can smash flying teams, but let's be honest ice's problems aren't with the flying matchup anyways; it's like running Rillaboom on Grass to smash water and ground. This isn't, of course, to claim Arceus-ice == Rillaboom (clearly Arceus is a lot better), but just because Arceus-Ice is clearly capable of smashing flying teams to dust doesn't mean we should be afraid to test it.
Overall you're not really understanding where we're coming from here. To me, an ideal tierlist is a tierlist with the least amont of bans. Things like Arceus-Ice, Arceus-Grass, and Arceus-Electric were never given a chance in the tier; maybe they're busted but maybe their type is bad enough that they're not overwhelming games.
I think a better question here is: If arceus-Electric was free and electric had say, a 40% winrate and like 2% usage in tour/ladder play, would we ban arceus-Electric? I'm guessing no, and so these mons deserve a chance to be in the tier to see what their metagame effect is.
To me it's not automatically obvious that some of these mons are going to be busted. Like sure Arceus-ice can smash flying teams, but let's be honest ice's problems aren't with the flying matchup anyways; it's like running Rillaboom on Grass to smash water and ground. This isn't, of course, to claim Arceus-ice == Rillaboom (clearly Arceus is a lot better), but just because Arceus-Ice is clearly capable of smashing flying teams to dust doesn't mean we should be afraid to test it.
Overall you're not really understanding where we're coming from here. To me, an ideal tierlist is a tierlist with the least amont of bans. Things like Arceus-Ice, Arceus-Grass, and Arceus-Electric were never given a chance in the tier; maybe they're busted but maybe their type is bad enough that they're not overwhelming games.
I think a better question here is: If arceus-Electric was free and electric had say, a 40% winrate and like 2% usage in tour/ladder play, would we ban arceus-Electric? I'm guessing no, and so these mons deserve a chance to be in the tier to see what their metagame effect is.
Kill this nonsense about freeing Deoxys right now ya'll are fucking crazy LMFAOOO. Only broken I'd wanna free is THE PAO. Speaking of broken Pokemon by the way can we get Gliscor gone? People can call it not broken all they like but if they were given a big red button that makes them never fight it again I bet my bloodline's future nobody doesn't click the button. I don't know to word that its busted beyond saying "it doesn't die to anything and outlives everything" but it doesn't die to anything and it outlives everything. Lowkey too lazy to post anything more substantial than this, but I think actual gliscor discussion is more productive than entertaining deoxys fucking attack. Thank you for coming to my ted talk, give me likes December react shop ain't far away.
I think you touched a central point. This is exactly what any tier could aim for: to have the least ammount of bans and be balanced at the same time. We, like a pokemon battle simulator, could give to our playerbase the most possible tools (pokemon, items, moves, etc) for them to use. Thats why I advocate on Wincon idea of 1/2 "retest weeks", even if I disagree about deoxyes healthiness in our meta. Thats why im still bitter than quick claw/ focus band remain banned even if everyone knows they are not broken items. They add nothing to our meta I agree, but they are another tools to use for our playerbase, and thats the important thing.
I feel like people is scared of retests for some reason, but it was already done with Solgaleo, although with wrong timing like Aschmaros said. So for any retest ideas that have some argument behind them and are not overly broken, yeah count me in.
I very much so disagree with this because at that point we will we playing monotype ubers. The way I see it is this. Start with banning every box art legendary and see how the meta shakes up. Ban all the broken stuff then test if the things that we removed initially are actually broken. Namely Kyu-b in BW. The way I see it. First, forget deo-A. Considering some types struggle to switch into sth like hoopa-U, with types like psychic with good switch move users, bringing deo-A in is way too easy and with e-speed, too hard to punish. I think Deo-N is broken too but I'm not against a suspect test for it. This one at least you can make it a stretch, deo-A is just dumb like a lot of people said.
To reply to this specifically, that is one way to view a Metagame. I think a Metagame that encourages diversity and creative solutions is more enjoyable. If NOTHING is banned, a lot of mons will never see any play, because they are just outstated. So clearly, some bans to allow lower BST mons to shine bring diversity to a tier. I see Arceus and i ask, in what world is any 120 across the board mon nothing but overstated. It can SD or CM on like 3/4ths of the metagame (if not more) and adjust to the teams need easily. It also has Recover, just in case a 120 hp 120 defenses mon was too easy to take down. Or what about a dragon dance set, or just a bulk up, or Iron Defense body press. It's not like it's limited in options to joke around with tbh.
I think the core believe that bans are something negativ ignore that sometimes banning a single mon can allow multiple others to find value, which makes the metagame more diverse in the end.
We can Argue about other mons, but why does it have to be a mon that quite literaly can adept to everything with an insane statline. Why not "Blaziken doesn't even look at insane as it was in the past anymore given the general increase of power in the metagame", why is it Arceus specifically, a mon that was basically designed to be insanely good in every situation.
TLDR: Keep overstated mons out, Deo being 100% one of them, metagame overall is alright atm, i am not a big fan of gen 9 in general but no ban will ever fix the issues with the generation itself.
100% agree with schwipper here, and just to add on but frankly speaking I believe Monotype already operates under the principle of having as many pokemon in the tier as we can. It is such a limiting format after all, all pokemon must share the same type is a huge restriction, and it is for this reason that we see Monotype always click the ban button on busted mechanics in order to maintain that tier diversity.
A great example of what I'm talking about is the ban on Booster Energy and Ban on Tera. We as a community recognized that Booster as an item and Tera as a mechanic - even if it was limited to only Tera into your teams type - would ultimately lead to way more suspects and way more bans on pokemon that otherwise wouldn't be considered banworthy at all. Spectrier, Pult, Roaring Moon, and Valiant are some mons I think were preserved as a result of this.
As I said in my earlier post, and as Schwipper says here, if we were going to talk about potential unbans it would have to be on mons that there can be actual debate about as to whether they would be busted or not such as Blaziken. The issue, of course, is all these inane unban suggestions didn't come in order to bring mons into the tier that are potentially balanced, but rather the unban suggestions targeted insane Uber mons solely on the basis that the type they belonged to was bad regardless of the fact that they would be obviously overpowered and meta warping. They're bringing up Arceus and not Blaziken because they don't like the idea of unbanning a strong but potentially balanced mon onto 2 already good types, but they like the idea of unbanning a cracked mon onto a bad type.
Glisc and Arch I can agree with suspecting.
We do have a tier with the least amount of bans, and to your last question, we would ban them lmao. 1000% we would ban them. I know this, because that's what we literally did with all the typebans we released when we tried to make grass, ice, and bug good in gen 6. You yourself recognize that these are busted mons, you're not trying to argue that these pokemon are not busted, you're instead completely disregarding how tiering even works to suggest introducing brokens based on the most arbitrary measures. Like what? Winrate? Winrate where? On ladder? So you're saying if Electric became so busted that people only ever used Dragon and Ground on ladder in order to win, that it'd be ok to have Arceus Elec under those conditions? Or maybe you meant Winrate in tours, ok let's see here at MPL Winrate and Usage. https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet...kGKy73A7kg/edit?gid=1374096210#gid=1374096210
Ok, so from what I'm seeing here, Elec and Ice both already have a 50% winrate in this major tour, but that's due to low usage. Steel, on the other hand, has a 26% winrate with WAY higher usage. Doing the XYZ train of thought, this would mean that we should unban Arceus-Steel to boost Steel. Right?
Even casting aside just how insane of a complex ban it is and the confusion it would cause to have only 3 arceus forms drop out of nowhere, I can tell for a fact that you didn't give a single glimpse at the movepools and bulk of the mons you're proposing we introduce. Especially considering the special defense boost Arceus-Rock gets, and the physical defense boost Arceus-Ice gets - not to mention Aurora Veil support - we're looking at a whole entire nightmare in of itself. I mean...
252 SpA Choice Specs Flutter Mane Moonblast vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Arceus-Ice with an ally's Aurora Veil: 102-120 (23 - 27%) -- 55% chance to 4HKO
Oh no, your choice specs Flutter Mane didn't break Arceus-Ice's sub! At least you have...Band Dragapult!
252 Atk Choice Band Dragapult Dragon Darts (2 hits) vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Arceus-Ice in Snow with an ally's Aurora Veil: 66-78 (14.8 - 17.6%) -- possible 6HKO
Come on dude. Like even if it wasn't bulky you're still looking at a mon that just outspeeds and one shots Iron Valiant unboosted, has multiple set up options, reliable recovery, will o wisp to just cripple whatever fighting mon you may sent out, and it hits crazy hard with a custom 100/100 Stab move.
Regieleki is in and faster than deo, hoopa-unbound is stronger than deo on both sides, but obviously deo is the best as far as merging everything together. I would say the closest comparison we do have probably is dragapult, who has dual typing but missing speed and the offenses. I feel like deo would've been a train in gen 5,6,7,... but here idk. Is there a preproclaimed ruling about when we are being stupid when looking at stats? I'm not trying to be stupid, but we do have near neighbors in the tier who all have their own faults. I think deo would be the best out of all the mons I mentioned, but I'm not sure he actually would make you want to use psychic over ghost or dragon and use dragapult. I'm surprised there isn't a shadow of a doubt here. I'm not for the arceus unbans or anybody else, singularly this or mewtwo. I would be partial to 1 suspect test if we did anything (we can do nothing at all too!), not an avalanche of ubers from me, I can't think of anything else possible.
Edit: Whoever said bored stinks. I never said that but anyone for this out of boredom needs better reasons than that.
Edit2: I played a bunch of games against deoxys-normal with a bunch of types, i really don't want that thing here. Ground had a pretty ok game along with flying, but even dark was struggling against it. I'll try playing against mewtwo.
Edit: Whoever said bored stinks. I never said that but anyone for this out of boredom needs better reasons than that.
Edit2: I played a bunch of games against deoxys-normal with a bunch of types, i really don't want that thing here. Ground had a pretty ok game along with flying, but even dark was struggling against it. I'll try playing against mewtwo.
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counterpoint: rock jesus is cool and you're just jealous that SOME of us would get to have more fun.
in all seriousness, these discussions around unbanning mons that are going to add a lot more instability to the meta rn seem a bit far-fetched. there's issues in the meta that are certainly more pressing to examine (like we need a good, critical look at both arch and glisc rn), and adding in x y or z mon because we think that it just needs a chance and we need to see how it behaves is going to push us toward destabilizing selection more than anything. especially because problem mons take a fair bit of time to figure out how and why they're problems and we're going to see massive upticks in usage of these mons since they're the cool shiny unban, which is probably just gonna send us back to square 1 without much real benefit aside from me being allowed to use rock jesus (pls let me use rock jesus)
Well, how about you dial back the aggression and actually read I actually fucking said? I understand how tiering works, and I never ONCE stated that something should be unbanned to save some type. Secondly, I quite literally stated the time period where in which this was done before. I'm not sure why you went back to old tiering philosophy when the time period I stated was literally two years ago in SV and just to be clear since you like to make assumptions that was not me advocating for solgaleo to come back. Thirdly, I never stated that I wanted this for some temporary dopamine boost. I literally said it would be a nice to experiment if something was truly unhealthy for the meta when it is at a balanced and stabilized point.
You might be missing that I was replying to more than 1 user with the comment.
Edit: I originally included more just clarifying why I included your comment, how it was answered and had points used for context, and to point out that you're simultaneously missing the point of the post/what I was replying to. I then realized none of that is necessary.
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A couple days ago, I played some Deoxys-Normal games with nomadderwhat and schwipper. I played with/against it about a dozen or so games and I believe it should stay locked up. I was already against releasing Deoxys-Normal into the meta but I was all for trying it out. Now that I have, it’s a really strong mixed attacker that makes games really tight. Schwipper mentioned in PMs that some mons that were options are now forced to be ran. An example is Choice Scarf Roaring Moon. You’re shoehorned into always running it because Deoxys-Normal forces you. Deoxys-Normal makes Psychic strong enough to be considered in the teambuilder bare minimum, at most top 5.
I also tried a some games with Mewtwo against Nomadderwhat. I figured Mewtwo would be the more oppressive one but it was the reverse. While it was more manageable than Deoxys-Normal, how much it severely threatens Fighting, Flying, and Steel with Nasty Plot + Psystrike + 2 filler makes it too strong.
Again, I was against releasing Deoxys-Normal but I’m glad I got to have experience with it since I’ve never played with/against it before. Now I’m okay with moving on from this. Was fun talking about this topic.
Don’t wanna clutter the post so I’ll put the replays in a spoiler for those that want to see the games. Used standard sets against Schwipper. Against Nomadderwhat, he wanted to use teams that didn’t have the forced answers to see how the types would do against Deoxys-Normal.
Deoxys @ Life Orb
Ability: Pressure
Tera Type: Psychic
EVs: 4 Atk / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Naive Nature
- Expanding Force
- Superpower
- Knock Off
- Ice Beam
This is the set schwipper didn’t use in our games but suggested would break Steel. He used BoltBeam over Knock Off.
Ability: Pressure
Tera Type: Psychic
EVs: 4 Atk / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Naive Nature
- Expanding Force
- Superpower
- Knock Off
- Ice Beam
This is the set schwipper didn’t use in our games but suggested would break Steel. He used BoltBeam over Knock Off.
Slowking-Galar @ Eject Button
Ability: Regenerator
Tera Type: Poison
EVs: 252 HP / 4 SpA / 252 SpD
Sassy Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Future Sight
- Ice Beam
- Chilly Reception
- Slack Off
Slowbro
Ability: Regenerator
Tera Type: Water
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Def / 8 SpD
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Body Press
- Scald
- Thunder Wave
- Slack Off
Indeedee (M) @ Terrain Extender
Ability: Psychic Surge
Tera Type: Psychic
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Expanding Force
- Dazzling Gleam
- Encore
- Healing Wish
Hatterene (F) @ Leftovers
Ability: Magic Bounce
Tera Type: Psychic
EVs: 252 HP / 204 Def / 52 Spe
Bold Nature
- Calm Mind
- Psyshock
- Draining Kiss
- Nuzzle
Hoopa-Unbound @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Magician
Tera Type: Psychic
EVs: 248 SpA / 8 SpD / 252 Spe
Hasty Nature
- Hyperspace Fury
- Dark Pulse
- Expanding Force
- Thunderbolt
Deoxys @ Life Orb
Ability: Pressure
Tera Type: Psychic
EVs: 4 Atk / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Naive Nature
- Expanding Force
- Superpower
- Knock Off
- Ice Beam
Ability: Regenerator
Tera Type: Poison
EVs: 252 HP / 4 SpA / 252 SpD
Sassy Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Future Sight
- Ice Beam
- Chilly Reception
- Slack Off
Slowbro
Ability: Regenerator
Tera Type: Water
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Def / 8 SpD
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Body Press
- Scald
- Thunder Wave
- Slack Off
Indeedee (M) @ Terrain Extender
Ability: Psychic Surge
Tera Type: Psychic
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Expanding Force
- Dazzling Gleam
- Encore
- Healing Wish
Hatterene (F) @ Leftovers
Ability: Magic Bounce
Tera Type: Psychic
EVs: 252 HP / 204 Def / 52 Spe
Bold Nature
- Calm Mind
- Psyshock
- Draining Kiss
- Nuzzle
Hoopa-Unbound @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Magician
Tera Type: Psychic
EVs: 248 SpA / 8 SpD / 252 Spe
Hasty Nature
- Hyperspace Fury
- Dark Pulse
- Expanding Force
- Thunderbolt
Deoxys @ Life Orb
Ability: Pressure
Tera Type: Psychic
EVs: 4 Atk / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Naive Nature
- Expanding Force
- Superpower
- Knock Off
- Ice Beam
I also tried a some games with Mewtwo against Nomadderwhat. I figured Mewtwo would be the more oppressive one but it was the reverse. While it was more manageable than Deoxys-Normal, how much it severely threatens Fighting, Flying, and Steel with Nasty Plot + Psystrike + 2 filler makes it too strong.
+2 252 SpA Mewtwo Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Archaludon: 386-455 (100.5 - 118.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252 SpA Mewtwo Psystrike vs. 248 HP / 8 Def Goodra-Hisui: 183-216 (50.4 - 59.5%) -- 83.2% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+2 252 SpA Mewtwo Psystrike vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Tornadus-Therian: 445-525 (123.2 - 145.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252 SpA Mewtwo Psystrike vs. 244 HP / 32 Def Gliscor: 297-351 (84.3 - 99.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Poison Heal
+2 252 SpA Mewtwo Psystrike vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Articuno: 370-436 (96.6 - 113.8%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO
+2 252 SpA Mewtwo Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 244+ SpD Corviknight: 438-516 (109.5 - 129%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252 SpA Mewtwo Psystrike vs. 248 HP / 8 Def Goodra-Hisui: 183-216 (50.4 - 59.5%) -- 83.2% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+2 252 SpA Mewtwo Psystrike vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Tornadus-Therian: 445-525 (123.2 - 145.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252 SpA Mewtwo Psystrike vs. 244 HP / 32 Def Gliscor: 297-351 (84.3 - 99.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Poison Heal
+2 252 SpA Mewtwo Psystrike vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Articuno: 370-436 (96.6 - 113.8%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO
+2 252 SpA Mewtwo Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 244+ SpD Corviknight: 438-516 (109.5 - 129%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Again, I was against releasing Deoxys-Normal but I’m glad I got to have experience with it since I’ve never played with/against it before. Now I’m okay with moving on from this. Was fun talking about this topic.
Don’t wanna clutter the post so I’ll put the replays in a spoiler for those that want to see the games. Used standard sets against Schwipper. Against Nomadderwhat, he wanted to use teams that didn’t have the forced answers to see how the types would do against Deoxys-Normal.
With Dragon against Schwipper
With Ground against Schwipper
With Steel against Schwipper
Against Steel against Nomadderwhat
Against Ground against Nomadderwhat
Against Flying against Nomadderwhat
Against Dark against Nomadderwhat
Mewtwo vs Steel against Nomadderwhat
Mewtwo vs Ground against Nomadderwhat
Not every game against Nomadderwhat was saved since we were rapid firing games.
With Ground against Schwipper
With Steel against Schwipper
Against Steel against Nomadderwhat
Against Ground against Nomadderwhat
Against Flying against Nomadderwhat
Against Dark against Nomadderwhat
Mewtwo vs Steel against Nomadderwhat
Mewtwo vs Ground against Nomadderwhat
Not every game against Nomadderwhat was saved since we were rapid firing games.
This gets posted after the meta ends (like when gen10 comes out) , its pretty subjective overall and annoyingly a pointless debate..just know dark dragon fly are good types and rock isnt lol.
We did a community type VR last month:
Hello everyone. Here are the results of the second edition of the Community Type VR, based off of 25 respondents. Thanks to all who responded!
Tiers were selected by k-means clustering.
Overall Rankings
Qualified Rankings
Tiers were selected by k-means clustering.
Overall Rankings
Code:
Dragon 1.76
Flying 2.80
Steel 3.32
Dark 3.36
Water 5.60
Ground 6.52
Fighting 6.84
Fire 8.84
Fairy 8.96
Ghost 9.12
Normal 11.32
Poison 11.64
Bug 12.04
Psychic 13.96
Ice 15.68
Grass 15.80
Rock 16.32
Electric 17.12Qualified Rankings
Code:
Dragon 1.95
Flying 2.80
Dark 3.05...