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CAP Metagame Analysis Workshop
- Thread starter sbc
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@ J_G: I think Spiritomb is a bit too specialized, as it does not serve many purposes other than this, but Zapdos definitely deserves more light. I'll work on it.
@Eric: I have only 2 things to add to Pyroak analysis. First of all, Toxic and Toxic Spikes really deserve mention in the How to stop part. If Pyroak lacks Aromatherapy it cant afford to tank when Toxiced. And, about the points you make about Revenankh, well I didnt thought Ice punch was enoughly used to deserve mention. Skarmory's unability to Roost in face of Rev is mentioned along with Togekiss, but, onestly, I didnt think to Encore. Good one.
EDIT: Fixed the analysis. I added both Metal Sound Zapdos and Ice Punch Rev, but I also underlined how these sets can open to other threats. In Zapdos case, I also underlined how the common Bulky set is ineffective against Rev since this guide is written for new people who played standards. It's our duty to advise them when standards dont work very well, I think
@Eric: I have only 2 things to add to Pyroak analysis. First of all, Toxic and Toxic Spikes really deserve mention in the How to stop part. If Pyroak lacks Aromatherapy it cant afford to tank when Toxiced. And, about the points you make about Revenankh, well I didnt thought Ice punch was enoughly used to deserve mention. Skarmory's unability to Roost in face of Rev is mentioned along with Togekiss, but, onestly, I didnt think to Encore. Good one.
EDIT: Fixed the analysis. I added both Metal Sound Zapdos and Ice Punch Rev, but I also underlined how these sets can open to other threats. In Zapdos case, I also underlined how the common Bulky set is ineffective against Rev since this guide is written for new people who played standards. It's our duty to advise them when standards dont work very well, I think
Good point, I meant to include that. Adding.
IP Rev is really much better than its usage implies (it still is on 11% of Rev's), it can take out a good few Pokemon that usually counter Rev entirely (Mence and SkyMin) as well as taking a nice chunk out of Zapdos, Togekiss, Straptor, and Fidgit so that they can only come in once or twice. They can't afford to Roost because Hammer Arm would blast them.
Its also stonger than a nutral STAB Shadow Sneak by 15 BP and with the rareity of Gengar these days its not essential.
Ice Punch is a great option on Revenankh that should be prominent in the analysis and common on the server, but its not on the BU set so not many people try it. Lets not add to this here.
If it has such usage I think it deserves at least a mention in the Other options - lol, if I would have been more strict, the other options part for Rev would have been a blank page... it is like comparing RBY Mewtwo Amnesia's sets with the other sets, there is no story^^
We cant however, as you pointed out, mention something because it "would be good" people wnats to know here: what do I have to expect?
And, considering Ice Punch itself, well, I can see the advantage on Shaymin-S, on Salamence, even on Zapdos, who can anyway Roost away, but dont undervalue the importance of SS' priority, especially when you need to clean up. Things like Starmie - which is quite common nowadays - need really Shadow Sneak, as well as assorted Psychics and maybe even the odd Gengar which hope to Trick you (Dont forget Trick Gengar, guys...)
You need a lot of BU's before you can touch any mildly bulky Pokemon with a 40BP attack, I only ever found SS useful against people who let me set up (basically noobs to CaP) or Azelf/Gengar/Alakazam. All the other kinda bulky Ghost weaks (Celebi, Starme, Cressy, You get the idea) tended to beat me anyway or be beaten if they could not 2KO me.
SS is a good option for Azelf/Gengar/Alakazam and probably should remain the main one but Ice Punch is a very good replacement espesially with the downfall of Gengar and the rise of SkyMin and OutrageMence.
IMO it should be in the first section.
SS is a good option for Azelf/Gengar/Alakazam and probably should remain the main one but Ice Punch is a very good replacement espesially with the downfall of Gengar and the rise of SkyMin and OutrageMence.
IMO it should be in the first section.
The point you made is not wrong, but as long as this usefulness find an effective correspondence in usage I cant include it in the main discussion. People will still have to face, for the most part, standard BU/SS/Rest/Hammer Arm Rev and so that is the one I tried to make them familiarize to.
Should the metagame shift, we will update our guide. This applies not only to Revenankh. For example, maybe you have read my RMT thread. I think that the Syclant moveset I posted is very good - yet it is not listed neither here nor in the Strategydex. Maybe, if more people start playing it, that set will deserve more analysis and insight.
IMO, it should be in the second section. For now ;-P
Ok fine, but maybe a mention in some places in counters.
Say that a few of them can be messed up by Ice Punch or something like that?
Say that a few of them can be messed up by Ice Punch or something like that?
Fine, you could say what it is left open to (Water/Psychics, Gengar Azelf and Alakazam mainly) but that's ok.
I left it unspecified because I still cant evaluate well without accurate calculations what SS covers. Of course, Gengar, Azelf and Alakazam have all Trick and the latters have also respectively Taunt and Encore, but what about Starmie? Aside from Trick, the main way Starmie could threaten Rev is Psychic. But how much EV needs Psychic to threat? How less bulky Starmie becomes in exchange? I still need to make such evaluations about Starmie and also other pokes, and, since in my country it is almost midnight, you will excuse me if I take a little of time to make these calculations before posting something I'm not sure about^^
Of course, if you run these calculations by yourself and you show them to me I'll be glad to study them, but I dont mind doing them by myself
Eric was right when he said that SS cant counter Starmie, since Bulky variants are not 2HKOed even after a Bulk Up, and Specs variants will trick him and, also, are not OHKOed.
Apart from Azelf, Gengar and Alakazam, SS does not serve much more purposes.
Rev analysis will remain unchanged, however, even if I will imply a summary of these considerations alongside Ice Punch option
EDIT: added a brief note for Encore Fidgit and Encorers in general. Maybe there is still something I left out, but I hope that the most important options have been listed. For what I can say, I'm fine with editing it in the first page.
I'd find interesting also write something about Fidgit himself, but unfortunately I dont know him too much
Apart from Azelf, Gengar and Alakazam, SS does not serve much more purposes.
Rev analysis will remain unchanged, however, even if I will imply a summary of these considerations alongside Ice Punch option
EDIT: added a brief note for Encore Fidgit and Encorers in general. Maybe there is still something I left out, but I hope that the most important options have been listed. For what I can say, I'm fine with editing it in the first page.
I'd find interesting also write something about Fidgit himself, but unfortunately I dont know him too much
(sorry for double posting but a week has passed so an EDIT would not have been appropriate)
I noticed we have not added a section for Stratagem... we could even add it now that it has passed a good amount of time since its release. If you want I can take on its analysis too.
About Rev, probably I have been overly accurate on the counters section, but I think the actual edit on the main page is a bit too brief... Ok, Counters are listed in the first preview above, but spending a little word or 2 explaining how you are supposed to stop it - beyond simply talking about "immediate action" - may be useful.
I noticed we have not added a section for Stratagem... we could even add it now that it has passed a good amount of time since its release. If you want I can take on its analysis too.
About Rev, probably I have been overly accurate on the counters section, but I think the actual edit on the main page is a bit too brief... Ok, Counters are listed in the first preview above, but spending a little word or 2 explaining how you are supposed to stop it - beyond simply talking about "immediate action" - may be useful.
oh yeah lol I was going to change that, just this week work has been crazy but I am free this weekend and will definitely add stuff to that section.
I was going to re-write the counters section bit you did slightly to make it less daunting.
Yeah, tennis claimed stratagem, so when he has time he can do that.
Also now making changes to Syclant post approval
I was going to re-write the counters section bit you did slightly to make it less daunting.
Yeah, tennis claimed stratagem, so when he has time he can do that.
Also now making changes to Syclant post approval
Oops. I forgot about that really after redoing most of the real Stratagem analysis... can someone finish Fidgit for me? Its almost done.
Going to go through this for nitpicks.
At a Glance section:
Syclant
Maybe a mention that SR is relatively common due to Mountineer?
"Ice Punch is occasionally used and can render some normal counters useless."
Could go in there.
Slowbro/Starmie on the counter list?
Pyroak
Tyranitar is one of the best IMO. Does not like Toxic but it can (only just) 1KO with CB Stone Edge, and SS ruins Oak's healing.
Stratagem
Anyway Metagross is decent, much more bulky and has Bullet Punch.
From your sample team:
At a Glance section:
Syclant
Now EP is allowed with TG, HP Ground is not used.
Should be Earth Power.
Maybe a mention that SR is relatively common due to Mountineer?
Still think something like:
"Ice Punch is occasionally used and can render some normal counters useless."
Could go in there.
Slowbro/Starmie on the counter list?
Pyroak
Is Status Inducer/Leech Seed staller a Role? If yes add those.
Only DD/CB Mence beats Oak. Specs/Mix will lose.
Tyranitar is one of the best IMO. Does not like Toxic but it can (only just) 1KO with CB Stone Edge, and SS ruins Oak's healing.
Stratagem
Needs Giga Drain and Ancient Power boost (I have had it happen enough times. Its not as rare as you would think.. It got 2 in a row against my Rev once..).
Lucario is poor as most have EP or Flamethrower. However it could work against a CM/Sub/Giga Drain/Rock attack set...
Anyway Metagross is decent, much more bulky and has Bullet Punch.
From your sample team:
That team does not have Shaymin-S.
This is for the Build team section
Revenankh
Revenankh requires very little team support, and so it can fit into a lot of teams. Offensive Teams will enjoy Revenankh's Tanking prowess, and the more special biased ones may like the ease it switches into Blissey. Stalling teams also find Revenankh's Anti-Spin typing quite useful. As such, the Fighting ghost is an asset to almost any team.
If you wish to build your team more centralized around Revenankh, however, there are some top choices. Heatran is a good all-around weapon to deal with Jirachi, Celebi and Shaymin-S. Tyranitar may help against Zapdos, Fidgit, Rotom Appliances and Cresselia. Dugtrio can trap and kill Jirachi and Metagross, bur you will hardly be able to switch into them directly. Zapdos will take care of Togekiss, Staraptor and Metagross. Finally, if you have trouble with Gyarados, Vaporeon or Porygon2 could help too.
A final note: since Revenankh requires much more dedicated revenge killers/counters than a lot of stuff out there - chances are your generic Scarfed poke will not work -, an extra effort into lure and kill the standard counters ( which will usually appear in a number of 2-3 at max per team). A surprising mixed set, the occasional Explosion/Scarf, a gimmick-albeit-useful move of sort may open the way to a clean sweep easier than many could think.
Hope this can work
Revenankh
Revenankh requires very little team support, and so it can fit into a lot of teams. Offensive Teams will enjoy Revenankh's Tanking prowess, and the more special biased ones may like the ease it switches into Blissey. Stalling teams also find Revenankh's Anti-Spin typing quite useful. As such, the Fighting ghost is an asset to almost any team.
If you wish to build your team more centralized around Revenankh, however, there are some top choices. Heatran is a good all-around weapon to deal with Jirachi, Celebi and Shaymin-S. Tyranitar may help against Zapdos, Fidgit, Rotom Appliances and Cresselia. Dugtrio can trap and kill Jirachi and Metagross, bur you will hardly be able to switch into them directly. Zapdos will take care of Togekiss, Staraptor and Metagross. Finally, if you have trouble with Gyarados, Vaporeon or Porygon2 could help too.
A final note: since Revenankh requires much more dedicated revenge killers/counters than a lot of stuff out there - chances are your generic Scarfed poke will not work -, an extra effort into lure and kill the standard counters ( which will usually appear in a number of 2-3 at max per team). A surprising mixed set, the occasional Explosion/Scarf, a gimmick-albeit-useful move of sort may open the way to a clean sweep easier than many could think.
Hope this can work
When you are finished, we can do one of two things:
I don't really care which one we do, but I'd love to have this information readily available to the community.
1) Update the OP here, rename this thread to remove the "Workshop" tag, and link this thread to the reference sticky (EnCAPlopedia).
2) Make a new thread entirely, and link it from the sticky
2) Make a new thread entirely, and link it from the sticky
I don't really care which one we do, but I'd love to have this information readily available to the community.
bumping this because its virtually done. basically team building for stratagem and fidgit and its all complete apart from a quick summary of differences (there are few tbh). Slightly angry since this has spilt over into term time from the holidays but in my defence I had another bit edited in until my connection timed out :/
In order to speed up the process, can someone help me look through what I've written so far to check for spelling mistakes (I've got a tendency to say "Strategem") or irregular capitals (I know I've used capitals alot but i've tried to be consistent with attacks, status inflictions etc).
Anyway, this WILL be finished in the next few days, so thank you to everyone that has helped and posted in this thread for two months of hard work in putting this together.
In order to speed up the process, can someone help me look through what I've written so far to check for spelling mistakes (I've got a tendency to say "Strategem") or irregular capitals (I know I've used capitals alot but i've tried to be consistent with attacks, status inflictions etc).
Anyway, this WILL be finished in the next few days, so thank you to everyone that has helped and posted in this thread for two months of hard work in putting this together.
If its not done by the 13th I can do another section (exams finish then), whatever needs doing really.
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