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Glitched Weather in English Platinum [Part 2, Clearer Video] (Update March 18, 2009)

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Mien. said:
Am i the only one wondering how it is possible to implement such a complex status effect into Shoddy battle? I don't know much about programming but it sounds incredibly difficult too me if not impossible
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One of the workarounds is based on this. Since the bug is so hard to do, it's last in "bug priority" and thus never gets done. Considering Shoddy has no host - slave system as it is...

jamespicone said:
Banning pursuit is likely to have an incredibly massive effect on the metagame. Not implementing this glitch will have /no/ effect on our metagame.
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Except for the minor side effect nf no longer playing the game "Pokémon".

This glitch favours one player over the other - one person can activate it, the other can't. We're not playing competitive pokemon either way - if we implement the glitch, it's not competitive. We may as well go for the least harmful option and just not implement it.
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Just because one player is in control of it doesn't mean it's one sided and "not competitive"; the damage to both sides is equal after all.

I'm honestly surprised Game Freak didn't fix it for the US release. They just don't care, I suppose.
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They may not have been aware of it, or more likely didn't have time.
 
Chris is me said:
Just because one player is in control of it doesn't mean it's one sided and "not competitive"; the damage to both sides is equal after all.
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You're ignoring the bigger picture. One player can Pursuit Latias or Gengar without a care in the world, while the player on the other side has to think about how good his team is at dealing with 12% of residual damage per turn, how good the opponent's team is at doing the same, whether the opponent will switch and risk activating the glitch, and probably other factors as well.
 
Syberia said:
You're ignoring the bigger picture. One player can Pursuit Latias or Gengar without a care in the world, while the player on the other side has to think about how good his team is at dealing with 12% of residual damage per turn, how good the opponent's team is at doing the same, whether the opponent will switch and risk activating the glitch, and probably other factors as well.
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The opponent takes the same amount of damage so I don't see why it's a huge risk for either side. Granted the "host / slave" problem would lead me to recommend banning Pursuit (and I want Castform to not be Uber thankyou).

I don't see why the debate is focusing on how good or bad this glitch is, as if that matters implementation wise.
 
Acid rain has affects beyond just causing residual damage that you need to be taking into account. It wouldn't be hard to build a team that works substantially better under acid rain. In such a case, being the host is a huge advantage. Likewise, if you're playing against an acid rain based team and you're the host, you can choose not to ever activate acid rain, and you have a huge advantage. Ultimately, I think having an advantage or disadvantage based upon something as trivial as who started the matchup is obviously not at all in the interest of a competitively balanced game.

There is no precedent for an in battle glitch of this magnitude, and I personally think it's ridiculous that people think it's worth implementing simply to "best emulate the cartridge". It isn't our job to interpret what Gamefreaks intentions were, true, but how obvious does it have to be before we put our foot down?

Nobody cares about tiny oversights of logic, and we shouldn't ever change them IMO, but this is on an entirely different scale. Please don't compare this to whether or not dream eater hits substitute or whatever, as they are almost entirely unrelated.
 
Phizzlax said:
Acid rain has affects beyond just causing residual damage that you need to be taking into account. It wouldn't be hard to build a team that works substantially better under acid rain. In such a case, being the host is a huge advantage. Likewise, if you're playing against an acid rain based team and you're the host, you can choose not to ever activate acid rain, and you have a huge advantage. Ultimately, I think having an advantage or disadvantage based upon something as trivial as who started the matchup is obviously not at all in the interest of a competitively balanced game.

There is no precedent for an in battle glitch of this magnitude, and I personally think it's ridiculous that people think it's worth implementing simply to "best emulate the cartridge". It isn't our job to interpret what Gamefreaks intentions were, true, but how obvious does it have to be before we put our foot down?

Nobody cares about tiny oversights of logic, and we shouldn't ever change them IMO, but this is on an entirely different scale, please don't make that comparison.
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Please show me a game where I can not activate the glitch, and use all the Alt Formes. Until this exists, I will say that we should program this in. It's going to boil down more to the fact that no one is going to take/have the time to program it (I know I don't)

I'm sticking by my belief that Nintendo Will (or has) Fixed this glitch and we just need to wait to get the latest cartridge in order to test this.
 
meh, it'll change the metagame, i say we suspect test it :P

at first this whole thing actually angered me that people would want this. But i gave it a few days and came to the conclusion that the glitch is both difficult to do, and as long as both players can activate it (which is the one thing shoddy should do for this imo) then the glitch is less likely than a critical hit and probably will change the way the metagame is played

mamoswine usage will increase, that's for sure :P

not to mention, the strategy for this could work for "im gonna get acid rain up", but what if they get acid hail up? you could lose the game because of it, maybe people will pack sunny day on a wall now to make sure it doesn't work (can you negate the weathers).

frankly, people look at this as though it's going to kill pokemon, no, it's going to change the metagame the same way the hypnosis drop did and latias being unbanned did (as in: not an extremely MAJOR way).

plus, this gives pokemon a sense of field control, which i think is an intruiging notion in itself
 
Just one quick question (and a not-so-quick post):

In the Japanese version of DP, there were 2 main glitches that appear to be the focal point of this debate:

1. Ditto glitch, which allowed it to keep the moves after transforming, thus, allowing Pokemon to have any combination of their egg moves, and

2. Allowed the player to Surf to get Darkrai and Shaymin.

Both glitches were fixed in the American release, but could still be potentially gotten from an early Japanese cart.

Yet when it came to Shoddy, we allowed people to use Darkrai and Shaymin before they were officially released by Nintendo, yet banned the use of having any combination of egg moves. Now why allow Darkrai and Shaymin before their official release yet disallow any combination of egg moves?





The Darkrai and Shaymin argument is kind of moot NOW that they've been both been officially released, but the point still stands that both Darkrai and Shaymin were allowed in battle before they could be officially gotten in the games and could only be obtained through an unintended glitch in the early Japanese DP carts, a glitch that was fixed in the English/Americna release, yet Pokemon not having any combination of their egg moves was not allowed, even though it pretty much had the same properties of being available on an early Japanese DP cart and still possible if one has access to an early Japanese DP cart.

Both clearly (or would have clearly in the case of the Ditto glitch) effected Player vs. Player battles.

Right now, I'm not arguing for either side of "implement Acid Hail" or "don't implement Acid Hail". I'm just saying that this is a clear inconsistency of Shoddy's "philosophy" and think that it should be cleared up.





Now I'm going to tie that in with my view on the whole issue about implementing Acid Hail.

Keep in mind: I have not throughly read the entire topic, so I do not know if the Acid Hail glitch still works in the American release of Platinum.

Anyways, my view is that Smogon should follow the whole "don't allow glitches that were fixed in the American release", and allowing Darkrai and Shaymin before their Official Japanese release (since it was released in Japan first) was a clear mistake since they could only be obtained through a glitch in early Japanese copies, a glitch that was fixed in the English release. It is the same reason we don't allow Pokemon to have any combination of their egg moves via the Ditto glitch, since although it is possible for one to do with an early DP cart, it was a glitch that fixed in the English release, so we disallow it.

So in my view, it pretty much comes down to the English/American release: if it is still in the English release, we really do have no choice but to implement it. And if isn't in the English release, then we'll be consistent in our practices and not allow it. And if it is in the English release, and Nintendo releases a patch that fixes it, we'll not allow it to be consistent with the latest version of what Nintendo codes into their game or not. Simple as that.





Oh yeah, and have the Smogon policy makers just admit that, in hindsight, allowing Darkrai and Shaymin before their official Japanese release was a mistake (as they say, hindsight is always 20/20) since it was inconsistent with Smogon's philosophy/practices (okay, my interpretation of their philosophy/practices) of disallowing glitches that are fixed in later releases and we can all move on to debating more important things.

Alternatively, if allowing Darkrai and Shaymin wasn't a mistake, then in order for Smogon's philosophy/practices of allowing anything within any version of the game's programing possible as long as it was possible in one version of the cart, then Smogon would have no choice but to allow Pokemon to have any combination of their egg moves.

That's my view on the whole subject, and I think it's the simplest way to resolve this since it eliminates any need for anyone to interpret or debate "what the developer intended" and just lets what Nintendo allows/disallows in the code of the latest version of their games do the interpreting for us. Debate it with me if you want.
 
betterthanbonds9 said:
yeah....but we could get them AND we knew (read: 90%+ certainty) they were being released
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The argument "AND we knew (read: 90%+ certainty) they were being released" really doesn't apply at all, since "we knew (read: 90%+ certainty)" that Arceus was probably going to be released but we don't allow him anyway.

So your argument pretty much comes down to "yeah....but we could get them", and this falls under my argument of disallowing things that could be "obtained through glitches that but are fixed in later releases".
 
EeveeTrainer said:
Please stop comparing this glitch to out-of-battle glitches. This is a glitched battle mechanic.
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Yet the matter still affected what was allowed in battles or not, and, in my view, arguments for what we allowed/disallowed in battles in the past (in this case, the issue with glitches) can be applied to how to resolve this issue with Acid Rain/Hail. Please, at least try reading and understanding my points, and point out the parts you don't agree and why you don't agree with them so I can understand your views better instead of just "nope, your argument doesn't apply", at least tell me why you think parts of my argument do not apply.
 
i already did, the belief at the tiem (they wouldn't do the same thing now, not with the current view of it) but we COULD get them and we knew they'd be released. Arceus would most likely be unbanned atm if you could reach origin hall with the surf glitch too, but you can't, so arceus isn't.

and the egg glitch was removed in every cart that wasn't effectively first edition...but you answered that yourself...
 
DeadDream829 said:
And how do you plan on simulating this when, unlike the actual game, shoddy doesn't have a person who "hosts" the battle?
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That's the $64,000 question I, myself, asked two pages ago.
CardsOfTheHeart said:
Here's my question: how the hell are we supposed to fairly implement this? The point has been made MANY times itt that ladder matches don't have a "host." There has to be a fair method of selecting one person to be able to trigger this glitch. Allowing neither player to trigger the glitch results in an inaccurate simulation. Allowing both players to trigger the glitch results in an inaccurate simulation.

The problem I have is that I don't know if there exists a fair method of allowing one player to trigger the glitch. Should the person that gets on the ladder and looks for a battle first become the host? Is that fair to the other person who's not looking to battle someone in particular (assuming no lack of activity on the ladder)? I don't have a good answer to either question, but that's the best method I can come up with. Unless someone can come up with something better, I don't see how we CAN implement this glitch; I'm not even going to get into whether we SHOULD or not, right now.
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The best answer I've heard so far is "ban Pursuit." That avoids having to address the issue directly while not conflicting with the mechanics.
 
Would it be too unconventional to only ban pursuit in the situation that would cause the weather glitch? If it is found to be broken. I believe the glitch would only be banned on "brokeness" ground though.
 
Or ignore it completely. This may be in the Pt cartridge of the game, but unless I miss my mark it isn't in Pokemon BR, nor any of the other games. And since Nintendo doesn't address or hint at the odd weather like they clearly do with everything else added to the game, its as clear as day that it was unintended. What exactly would be the point of implementing a glitch that is clearly unintentional and that gives one person an obvious advantage in a game? There is none.

And for those of you saying ban pursuit, unless I miss my mark I hear alot of talk about banning moves being remarkably problematic, particularly when the move is wide spread in a metagame, although Pursuit is somewhat confined to a handful of pokemon.

Thus the question becomes Who the hell is enough of an anal retentive fucktard want to edit the metagame, ban a remarkably useful and unique move, all just to implement a glitch, A GLITCH, into our metagame that we currently have no way of decided who gets the advantage of being in control of just because they are enough of a jackass to stick to the cartridge games to the point of being a manacle wacko?
 
all just to implement a glitch
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You mean all just to play the game, right?

Pokemon Battle Revolution doesn't allow Shaymin-S, Giratina-O, or Rotom-A so that doesn't fly either.


It really is not Smogon's place to decide what is meant to be in the game and what isn't. Going back to my earlier example, if Smogon decides "the special/physical split was not meant to be in the game," should we reverse it? Simply put, no.
 
The thing is: it's clear how Pursuit is supposed to function, and that's how it did in DP. They don't change the fundamental mechanics of certain moves within a generation. It just doesn't function properly in Platinum because of a glitch.

Once it's activated, it's basically a game of "who can outlast the residual damage?" Even if it is implemented, it will be a problem that needs to be fixed by one of the ways Obi mentioned: ban Pursuit, ban Tyranitar, or ban Water-types (assuming it only activates on them, otherwise, only the other two options are valid). All of those are extreme and have drastic effects on the metagame.

I think that if it were implemented, it would eventually come to banning Pursuit, but I don't see how that can help us at all. After that the glitch, which someone would have to go through the trouble of programming into Shoddy, would no longer even matter since it can't be activated, and we'd just be short of one move (that keeps some important Pokemon in check).
 
greg3064 said:
The thing is: it's clear how Pursuit is supposed to function, and that's how it did in DP. They don't change the fundamental mechanics of certain moves within a generation. It just doesn't function properly in Platinum because of a glitch.
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Well, Hypnosis accuracy dropped, U-turn no longer locks a pokemon into the move with a choice item, and Pursuit no longer hits U-turners (oh snap, one related to Pursuit). Point is: things change. Mechanics do alter. "It works this way in this game" does not mean that's how it works now.

greg3064 said:
Once it's activated, it's basically a game of "who can outlast the residual damage?" Even if it is implemented, it will be a problem that needs to be fixed by one of the ways Obi mentioned: ban Pursuit, ban Tyranitar, or ban Water-types (assuming it only activates on them, otherwise, only the other two options are valid). All of those are extreme and have drastic effects on the metagame.
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As much as it sucks, "deal with it." What you're suggesting is leaving it intact, and play Psuedo-pokemon.

greg3064 said:
I think that if it were implemented, it would eventually come to banning Pursuit, but I don't see how that can help us at all. After that the glitch, which someone would have to go through the trouble of programming into Shoddy, would no longer even matter since it can't be activated, and we'd just be short of one move (that keeps some important Pokemon in check).
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So ban Pursuit before programming this thing. Then if it is fixed like RBG (and everyone else) hopes it is, we simply allow Pursuit again.

And again, keeping pokemon in check and how this hits the metagame is a problem we have to deal with personally. And it's not dealt with by "hey, let's play fake pokemon." Even Doug's CAP server refuses to alter game mechanics.
 
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