First Team, First Post - Half Baton Pass, Half Aggressive Sweeping

Skull Duelist

As this is my very first post on Smogon, and I have read the Rate My Team rules carefully, I hope that I do not do something that would get this team locked. While I am new to competitive Pokemon, I feel like I've learned enough to understand very well though out and intelligent posts. As such, I'd rather people just don't go something along the lines of: "Oh, look at the new newbie, their team is completely sweeped my (insert overused pokemon here)."

Now that this is out of the way, this paragraph will be the real introduction to my team. I've always loved Baton Pass teams, and I've wanted to create an ideal one here. I also know that if you put too much emphasis on one strategy (for example: Having 3 or more Baton Passers with no way of attacking on their own just to set up some sort of mixed sweeper), you'll end up not getting the results you want, and certainly a very poor team at that. With this in mind, I theorized that having just a few certain Baton Passers with sweepers that could use "boosts" from ideal Baton Passers would work nicely in the competitive metagame. This idea has been working somewhat well for me, because it gives me the ability to not be dependent on one team strategy, and even if I lose my main Baton Passers, I still have a solid team to fall back on.

But enough about theory, let's get on to my actual team.

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The Royal Opression, an Anti-Lead Weavile with Focus Sash
Ability: Pressure
EVs: Health Points 128 / Attack 128 / Speed 252
Nature: Jolly
~ Taunt
~ Counter
~ Night Slash
~ Brick Break

I've noticed that this particular EV spread makes Weavile with a Jolly Nature one of the fastest Pokemon around. This is good, because it allows my Anti-Lead set up to work that much easier. Taunt is good, for obvious reasons. It stops annoying Stealth Rock leads, as well as the occasional Ninjask (which, I don't know whether or not it is good, I've just seen a lot of it). Skarmory leads don't like Weavile either, as Taunt prevents Spikes and Whirlwind if the Skarmory is not fast enough. Counter is an interesting and uncommon move on Weavile, and since I'm wearing a Focus Sash, I can make good use of it. Especially on Swampert leads who would otherwise think that I would swap out. As for the other two moves, Night Slash is just all around good, puts a halt in Azelf and co. and recieves Same Type Attack Bonus on Weavile. I find Brick Break more useful than Ice Punch, because I see a lot of Tyranitars (who would normally expect me to switch out because of a potential Earthquake threat) and late-game Metagrosses (which Brick Break does decent on).

I've been thinking of changing Weavile to Crobat, because I believe it can Anti-Lead in the same way, except that it can also learn Mean Look (I think).

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The Set-Up, A Vaporeon with Leftovers.
Ability: Water Absorb
EVs: 252 Defense / 252 Speed / 4 Health Points
Nature: Impish
~ Baton Pass
~ Acid Armor
~ Roar
~ Rest

This spread makes Vaporeon a very difficult Pokemon to knock out, and that's what I want to typically go for. Vaporeon comes with the ideal move to pass on to other Pokemon, because I notice that I few of my main sweepers have a huge weakness to Earthquake (Weavile, plus another Physical Sweeper listed below), and comes with the perfect defenses that I can manipulate at the right time. Maxed out speed and an impish nature let Vaporeon Baton Pass quickly. Roar is a move I like very much right now. Often, while trying to set up my Vaporeon, I've seen people send in Suicune and Skarmory. Roar puts a halt to this, as well as removing other potential threats as well (I hear Dragon Dance is pretty popluar). Rest allows for long livelihood if I swich Vaporeon on the right pokemon (mostly Rock/Ground walls, and Water walls not named Starmie or Lapras), and sometimes allows me to set up more than one Baton Pass.

This is one of the few Pokemon that I consider perfect for this team.

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The other set-up, A Ninjask with Leftovers
Ability: Speed Boost
EVs: 4 Health Points / 252 Defense / 252 Special Defense
Nature: Impish (this probably needs to be something else)
~ Baton Pass
~ Swords Dance
~ Protect
~ Substitute

This is the other ideal Baton Passer, a completely stereotypical Ninjask. Ninjask's main purpose - both on this team, and in life - is to pass on speed and occasionally attack to other needy teammates. That's it. This Ninjask has probably been seen too many times, and I see little reason to make it's explanation much bigger than it is now. It's hard to kill, the ability will make it so you can Baton Pass before than can One Kit KO my Ninjask, and... well, you get the idea.

These are my only two Baton Passers. That means that the other slots on my team need to go to physical attack sweepers who can hit a wide range of types. I've tossed around a few ideas, and, so far, these are the only three Pokemon that work well.

dpffa448.png

The Master of Faster, a Lucario with a Life Orb. (could be a Choice item)
Ability: Inner Focus
EVs: 252 Attack / 128 Defense / 128 Speed (I don't know if this is a good spread or not)
Nature: Jolly
~ Extremespeed
~ Close Combat
~ Earthquake
~ Blaze Kick

This is the only one of my choices for those three remaining slots that has tested with very consistent results. Lucario is my all-around physical sweeper, being able to defeat multiple threats with it's interesting range of moves. I choose Lucario over Scizor, because I think Lucario is nothing more than a better Scizor, with better offense options. Extremespeed finishes off any threat who barely survives one of my previously used Pokemon. Close Combat is just an amazing move, and not only can it absolutely destroy Tyranitar when coming off of one of Ninjask's Baton Passes, but, because I have the potential to pass Swords Dance, this move can actually be useful up to at least two times without really hurting Lucario's other moves. Earthquake is generic, but nice, and that's all that needs to be said about that. Blaze Kick is an interesting, but surprisingly helpful option. Nobody else uses this for some reason. It usually One Hit KOs Scizor, Metagross, and Breloom, as well as uncommon choices like Jirachi and Sceptile.

All in all, Ghost-Types seem to be the only Pokemon that this Lucario can't stand up against. Especially Gengar with Hidden Power Fire. Luckily, that's why we have Weavile.

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The Master of Disaster, a Gyarados with Leftovers (might change to Chesto Berry)
Ability: Intimidate
EVs: 4 Health Points / 258 Attack / 258 Defense (I think, because of Thunderbolt and similar moves, I might change this to Special Defense and switch to the appropriate Nature)
Nature: Brave
~ Dragon Dance
~ Waterfall
~ Stone Edge
~ Rest

At first, this was an Elective, but since that I needed more Earthquake and Earth Power proof Pokemon, I decided to go with the one person that I knew that could not only resist that, but also completely rape most users of those said moves, Gyarados. Gyarados' moveset should be simple to figure out. Waterfall is there for Same Type Attack Bonus purposes, while Stone Edge has surprisingly good use in the OU metagame. Rest is move that I don't see on Gyarados very often, but since I try to Baton Pass into Gyarados, I don't to see random Pokemon ruin five or more turns worth of set-up. Sometimes it's inevitable, while other times, it's good to be able to heal.

This last slot can go to any number of Pokemon, but I can never seem to get something to work with enough consistency to keep in the long run. This is one of the main areas where my team needs work, as Gyarados, Weavile and Lucario just cannot hit every single opponent. Currently, this is what I am testing.

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The Intimidation Factor, a Salamance with Choice Scarf
Ability: Intimidate
EVs: 252 Attack / 180 Defense / 70 Speed
Nature: Jolly
~ Dragon Dance
~ Dragon Claw
~ Earthquake
~ Fire Fang

The reason that I do not like Salamance on my team is that, while it is a broken set of moves, my Lucario already does all of this, minus the Dragon Claw, which would actually be a considerable loss because my Weavile does not carry any Ice-Type attacks. This is where I want you Smogon posters to help me with most of all. What should I replace this Salamance with? I need something that is a Physical Sweeper, with a moveset that can cover areas that my other attacks cannot cover.

Thank you to all who take the time to read my enitre first post, and I trust that you will all welcome me onto Smogon with open arms. Ciao.
 
Your team is great except for this one little thing: your order.
If you have a Ninjask, anti-lead or not, if the opponent manages to get off a SR, he's obselete. Try using Ninjask in the front (remember your prediction) and see if that helps.
 
Skull Duelist said:
You rely too much on stat boosting moves. Any phazer could randomly come in and destroy your entire team. Also, it should be noted that you don't have a SINGLE pokemon that deals special attacks. A swampert pretty much destroys your entire team from head to toe.

dpffa461.png

The Royal Opression, an Anti-Lead Weavile with Focus Sash
Ability: Pressure
EVs: Health Points 128 / Attack 128 / Speed 252
Nature: Jolly
~ Taunt
~ Fake Out/Ice Punch (You're limiting your movepool unnecessarily and sacrificing Weavile just to snag a single kill.)
 ~ Night Slash
~ Brick Break

I've noticed that this particular EV spread makes Weavile with a Jolly Nature one of the fastest Pokemon around. This is good, because it allows my Anti-Lead set up to work that much easier. Taunt is good, for obvious reasons. It stops annoying Stealth Rock leads, as well as the occasional Ninjask (which, I don't know whether or not it is good, I've just seen a lot of it). Skarmory leads don't like Weavile either, as Taunt prevents Spikes and Whirlwind if the Skarmory is not fast enough. Counter is an interesting and uncommon move on Weavile, and since I'm wearing a Focus Sash, I can make good use of it. Especially on Swampert leads who would otherwise think that I would swap out. As for the other two moves, Night Slash is just all around good, puts a halt in Azelf and co. and recieves Same Type Attack Bonus on Weavile. I find Brick Break more useful than Ice Punch, because I see a lot of Tyranitars (who would normally expect me to switch out because of a potential Earthquake threat) and late-game Metagrosses (which Brick Break does decent on).

I've been thinking of changing Weavile to Crobat, because I believe it can Anti-Lead in the same way, except that it can also learn Mean Look (I think).
Why would you want mean look btw? Most common leads can destroy Crobat easily.

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The Set-Up, A Vaporeon with Leftovers.
Ability: Water Absorb
EVs: 128 HP / 252 Def / 128 Spe
Nature: Calm/Bold (You're gonna be carrying surf)
~ Baton Pass
~ Acid Armor
~ Surf (It needs an attacking move or it's helpless on its own if it's your last pokemon and also invites people to set up on it itself.)
~ Wish/Aqua Ring

This spread makes Vaporeon a very difficult Pokemon to knock out, and that's what I want to typically go for. Vaporeon comes with the ideal move to pass on to other Pokemon, because I notice that I few of my main sweepers have a huge weakness to Earthquake (Weavile, plus another Physical Sweeper listed below), and comes with the perfect defenses that I can manipulate at the right time. Maxed out speed and an impish nature let Vaporeon Baton Pass quickly. Roar is a move I like very much right now. Often, while trying to set up my Vaporeon, I've seen people send in Suicune and Skarmory. Roar puts a halt to this, as well as removing other potential threats as well (I hear Dragon Dance is pretty popluar). Rest allows for long livelihood if I swich Vaporeon on the right pokemon (mostly Rock/Ground walls, and Water walls not named Starmie or Lapras), and sometimes allows me to set up more than one Baton Pass.

This is one of the few Pokemon that I consider perfect for this team.

dpffa291.png

The other set-up, A Ninjask with Leftovers
Ability: Speed Boost
EVs: 4 Health Points / 252 Defense / 252 Special Defense
Nature: Impish (this probably needs to be something else)
~ Baton Pass
~ Swords Dance
~ Protect
~ Substitute

This is the other ideal Baton Passer, a completely stereotypical Ninjask. Ninjask's main purpose - both on this team, and in life - is to pass on speed and occasionally attack to other needy teammates. That's it. This Ninjask has probably been seen too many times, and I see little reason to make it's explanation much bigger than it is now. It's hard to kill, the ability will make it so you can Baton Pass before than can One Kit KO my Ninjask, and... well, you get the idea.

These are my only two Baton Passers. That means that the other slots on my team need to go to physical attack sweepers who can hit a wide range of types. I've tossed around a few ideas, and, so far, these are the only three Pokemon that work well.

If you wanna play baton pass, I highly suggest you do not use Ninjask, especially if it is not a lead. If it is, it still has its own problems (like being taunted), which usually pretty much makes Ninjask a very unreliable even-if pokemon. However, if it isn't, you must be prepared to give Ninjask rapid spin support or else it is as good as useless. Instead, Scizor is a worthy user of baton pass because it can definitely hold its own unlike Ninjask, and actually heal itself to survive the fight to pull it off. If it is a one time thing, you might wanna try

Scizor @ Salac/Liechi Berry
Adamant/Jolly
248 HP / 88 Atk / 172 Spe

Baton Pass
Swords Dance
Bullet Punch/X-scissor
Endure/Substitute

Immunity to sandstorm makes scizor quite a worthy pokemon of endure. And of course, it resists stealth rock no so worries there.

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The Master of Faster, a Lucario with a Life Orb. (could be a Choice item)
Ability: Inner Focus
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe(I don't know why you're so obsessed with pumping defense EVs, but trust me, it doesn't help at all)
Nature: Jolly
~ Extremespeed
~ Close Combat
~ Stone Edge/Bullet Punch
~ Ice Punch

If Lucario is going to be a recipient of a swords dance baton pass, you won't even need fire punch to destroy scissors or forretress. Repeated close combats will do. Instead, ice punch provides much needed coverage on dragons, notably salamence with intimidate, and also helps score super effective hits on gliscor and hippowdon. Stone edge would be preferable over earthquake as close combat already hits rocks and steels, while stone edge would give additional type coverage. Additionally, bullet punch is also an alternative because it absolutely destroys gengar switch ins, especially if they are scarfed and they think they can outspeed you.

This is the only one of my choices for those three remaining slots that has tested with very consistent results. Lucario is my all-around physical sweeper, being able to defeat multiple threats with it's interesting range of moves. I choose Lucario over Scizor, because I think Lucario is nothing more than a better Scizor, with better offense options. Extremespeed finishes off any threat who barely survives one of my previously used Pokemon. Close Combat is just an amazing move, and not only can it absolutely destroy Tyranitar when coming off of one of Ninjask's Baton Passes, but, because I have the potential to pass Swords Dance, this move can actually be useful up to at least two times without really hurting Lucario's other moves. Earthquake is generic, but nice, and that's all that needs to be said about that. Blaze Kick is an interesting, but surprisingly helpful option. Nobody else uses this for some reason. It usually One Hit KOs Scizor, Metagross, and Breloom, as well as uncommon choices like Jirachi and Sceptile.

All in all, Ghost-Types seem to be the only Pokemon that this Lucario can't stand up against. Especially Gengar with Hidden Power Fire. Luckily, that's why we have Weavile.

dpffa130.png

The Master of Disaster, a Gyarados with Leftovers (might change to Chesto Berry)
Ability: Intimidate
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Nature: Brave
~ Dragon Dance
~ Waterfall
~ Stone Edge
~ Earthquake/Ice fang

A DD gyarados won't even have the chance to pull off a rest, and once you're sleeping, chances are you won't survive. Take it out and give it EQ or ice fang for more type coverage. EQ hits electrics (why do you need to bother to survive their moves when you can just kill them in the first place?) while ice fang deals with dragon types like salamence and latias.

At first, this was an Elective, but since that I needed more Earthquake and Earth Power proof Pokemon, I decided to go with the one person that I knew that could not only resist that, but also completely rape most users of those said moves, Gyarados. Gyarados' moveset should be simple to figure out. Waterfall is there for Same Type Attack Bonus purposes, while Stone Edge has surprisingly good use in the OU metagame. Rest is move that I don't see on Gyarados very often, but since I try to Baton Pass into Gyarados, I don't to see random Pokemon ruin five or more turns worth of set-up. Sometimes it's inevitable, while other times, it's good to be able to heal.

This last slot can go to any number of Pokemon, but I can never seem to get something to work with enough consistency to keep in the long run. This is one of the main areas where my team needs work, as Gyarados, Weavile and Lucario just cannot hit every single opponent. Currently, this is what I am testing.

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The Intimidation Factor, a Salamance with Life Orb
Ability: Intimidate
EVs: 84 Atk / 216 SpA / 208 Spe
Nature: Mild
~ Draco meteor
~ Earthquake
~ Fire blast
~ Outrage

Scarfed mence with DD is worthless as you can't do anything else after you have DDed. Gyarados already carries DD, so give this guy a Mixed Set or special set instead to cover up for your huge physical inclination.
If you want a scarfed revenge killer, try gengar or heatran.

The reason that I do not like Salamance on my team is that, while it is a broken set of moves, my Lucario already does all of this, minus the Dragon Claw, which would actually be a considerable loss because my Weavile does not carry any Ice-Type attacks. This is where I want you Smogon posters to help me with most of all. What should I replace this Salamance with? I need something that is a Physical Sweeper, with a moveset that can cover areas that my other attacks cannot cover.

Thank you to all who take the time to read my enitre first post, and I trust that you will all welcome me onto Smogon with open arms. Ciao.
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As I have said, I am new to this, and thus, may not know everything.

Your first tiny paragraph completely goes against what I have tried to prevent as well.
 
What's your plan against stall? Swampert/Hippowdon and Celebii smash just about your entire team, and it just gets worse as Skarm and Rotom join the heap. If they run Cress or P2, you're doomed. Making Luke Adamant will help this a little, because then he can OHKO the bulky ground with an SD'd CC, and OHKO Celebii with Ice Punch.
 
Shigen said:
What's your plan against stall? Swampert/Hippowdon and Celebii smash just about your entire team, and it just gets worse as Skarm and Rotom join the heap. If they run Cress or P2, you're doomed. Making Luke Adamant will help this a little, because then he can OHKO the bulky ground with an SD'd CC, and OHKO Celebii with Ice Punch.
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I barely understood this with all of the abbreviations, but yes, I will try these suggestions out.
 
Your post actually makes a lot of sense now. ^.^

Anyway, what are your other suggestions against stall? I've changed my team a lot lately, but I'm not going to post my changes until I can conclude that they are good.
 
This vaguely reminds me of my Cosmic Power Jirachi team, which tried to pass attack, special attack, and speed to Jirachi who would then tank up and not die.

Currently, you bp speed, attack, and defense. I suppose this is why you have all physical attackers. However, two points were made that I want to touch on:

1. Wish: Wish is *very* very nice. You could break the bp chain if you need to give someone health; if you have a free turn, it's healing. This will be useful if you drop rest.

2. Special Attacking: I do think you might want to drop someone for a special attacker as well, just to provide some offense against physically-bulky teams. While the attack boosts won't be helpful, I think the diversity in your attacking spectrum overall should make up for it.
 
Eidenhoek said:
This vaguely reminds me of my Cosmic Power Jirachi team, which tried to pass attack, special attack, and speed to Jirachi who would then tank up and not die.

Currently, you bp speed, attack, and defense. I suppose this is why you have all physical attackers. However, two points were made that I want to touch on:

1. Wish: Wish is *very* very nice. You could break the bp chain if you need to give someone health; if you have a free turn, it's healing. This will be useful if you drop rest.

2. Special Attacking: I do think you might want to drop someone for a special attacker as well, just to provide some offense against physically-bulky teams. While the attack boosts won't be helpful, I think the diversity in your attacking spectrum overall should make up for it.
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Yeah, Rest isn't testing very well on Vaporeon. That change can be made.

You suggest a Special Attacker. As I am new to all of this, do you have any recommendations in mind?
 
Definitely use anything over Ninjask. Aside from the liabilities associated with the ninja bug, it makes your gameplan an open book, something you don't want to happen. I recommend Gliscor, which is the best baton passer in the game. Plus, it attracts Ice moves, which can be redirected to Lucario.

Gliscor(M) @ Yache Berry
Timid
Ability: Hyper Cutter
252 HP/196 SDef/60 Spd

Swords Dance
Rock Polish
Taunt
Baton Pass

If you want to pull off a pass to Salamence, then use Scizor, but use this to pass to Lucario.

 
Remember, Ninjask is one of the best BPers, and don't replace him lightly. Also, remember to keep a wall handy, like Swampert, Blissey, Vaporeon, or Gliscor. If you have all fragile pokemon, your team will be even more tender! You have a good team, but I recomend taking out Mance or Lucario to even things out.
 
jjman2358 said:
Remember, Ninjask is one of the best BPers, and don't replace him lightly. Also, remember to keep a wall handy, like Swampert, Blissey, Vaporeon, or Gliscor. If you have all fragile pokemon, your team will be even more tender! You have a good team, but I recomend taking out Mance or Lucario to even things out.
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Don't listen to him.
 
jjman2358 said:
Remember, Ninjask is one of the best BPers, and don't replace him lightly. Also, remember to keep a wall handy, like Swampert, Blissey, Vaporeon, or Gliscor. If you have all fragile pokemon, your team will be even more tender! You have a good team, but I recomend taking out Mance or Lucario to even things out.
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This suggestion is worth looking into.

Franklin said:
Don't listen to him.
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Is there any reason why I shouldn't?
 
I would recommend spending some time reading the Smogon strategy dex. Your EVs and natures are all over the place and are rarely optimal. Why would you bother giving Weavile any HP? What specifically does 252 speed let Vaporeon outspeed that is more valuable than giving it HP EVs? Is it really a good idea to have a 0 spd EV -speed Gyarados?

Passing defense with Vaporeon seems to me like a waste of time. Your sweepers would much prefer big bulky subs than +2 defense any day. If I were you though I would just cut Vaporeon out of the baton pass chain and let it stand alone as a wish supporter and general bulky water, with a set like surf / hp electric / protect / wish. That way you have some Gyarados insurance too.

Your Lucario's whole set is very non-optimal, read the smogon dex entry to see what you should use. Sorry if that sounds uncreative or something, but it's in the dex because it's the best set, and you should be using the best sets on all your pokemon.

For you Gyarados, rework your EV spread. Either go offensive with 252 Atk / 252 Spd Adamant or go bulky with whatever the bulky Gyara EVs are now, they were just changed but check the smogon dex. You should replace Rest, which does not really make sense in that slot, with Earthquake or maybe even Bounce, which is a pretty neat option for taking out Celebi, one of Gyarados' biggest counters.

And then your Salamence for the most part is fine, but if I were you I would replace Dragon Claw with Outrage to let you power through your opponent's bulky water. Also, Fire Blast is generally a better option than Fire Fang, because it does more to most Steel types, which tend to have higher Defense than Special Defense, even after multiple Dragon Dances, because of the much higher base power. I would also rework your EV spread so that you can outspeed Jolly Lucario, so you can use Salamence as a check to it.

The last thing I will say is that you have this whole baton pass strategy and then three sweepers who don't even really care about getting speed passed to them. Sure they like it but Lucario has a priority attack and Salamence and Gyarados have a way to boost their speed. Because of that, to be honest I would ditch the whole baton passing strategy. Your sweepers can do fine without the passed speed.

So assuming you ditch Ninjask, you now have lead-Weavile, wish vaporeon, sd luke, dd gyara and dd mence. Right now it looks like you have a pretty big electric weakness, which will make specsjolteon and zapdos a pain. Your last slot is a little tricky to fill, but I would consider a CBTyranitar. It is bulky enough to wall most special attackers, and appreciates your duo of intimidating fighting resists. Not only that but it will be able to pursuit away those annoying Rotom and Celebi standing in Lucario's way. That's just one suggestion though.

Well I hope that helped. I guarantee you if you make most of those changes your team will be more competetive
 
Skull Duelist said:
This suggestion is worth looking into.



Is there any reason why I shouldn't?
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Dont listen to him because he is wrong about Ninjask... He can only do one thing AND he is roar bait and dies simply from phazing and coming in on SR a couple of times. Trash actually. Gliscor is versatile and can do SEVERAL things. Your opponent does't look at it and think "let me go get my phazer right quick." He is barely more useful than F.E.A.R. tbh.
 
I was just spending the better half of the last two hours replying to this, only to be auto-relogged onto smogon and lose everything that I had just typed up. So I'll try and redo everything I just was, but in smaller amounts.

Weavile needs Fake Out if you really want him to be an anti lead. That way he can break pokemon's focus sash. I would run Fake Out over Brick Break, giving you Fake Out / Taunt / Counter / Night Slash. You don't need to run any HP EV's, they won't help you survive any specific attacks, and that goes for all of your pokemon with Defense EV's. Weavile should capitolize on its two only good stats, attack and Defense. If you want a bulky lead, Swampert or Metagross will do you much better.

Your Vaporeon's EV's are non optimal for defenses, and it also desperately needs an attack move (Surf). Change its nature to Bold, and put surf in over rest. Using rest on a non sleep talk set (or really a set without a stat boost) is just asking to have another pokemon come in and set up on you. You don't need to invest in speed as much, only enough to cover certain threats, check the smogon entry for Vaporeon for more specifics.

Ninjask is in the same situation as Vaporeon. The Defense EV's really won't do anything for you (unless you run some HP and defense to survive priority moves) and he also is asking for an attack move, namely X-Scissor. Ninjask suffers from a x2 weakness to Stealth Rock, something you'll see in almost every single game you play (and on that note I suggest you get a user of stealth rock on your own team!). Because of this, Ninjask loses half of his life every time he enters play, assuming SR is on the field. You should either get some good rapid spin use or replace Ninjask with Scizor or Gliscor, as both of them can Baton Pass much more efficiently mid game. Ninjask's baton passing duties are best when he is a lead.

Lucario should be running 252 Atk / 252 Spe. He also should have a life orb. A baton pass recipient should never have a choice item, that really limits their use completely. Running Blaze Kick, Earthquake, and Close Combat is redundant coverage. Everything you listed OHKO'd by blaze kick are already OHKO'd by Close Combat after a boost. Earthquake is in the same boat. I would run Stone Edge and Crunch in those respective spots.

Gyarados should also be running 252 Atk / 252 Spe. Bulky Gyara spreads are more than possible, but yours is not going to work, and as a baton pass recipient you want him to be as dangerous as possible. You want to run Earthquake over rest. This will give you better coverage, and running rest is just asking for a stat boosting pokemon to jump in and set up on you. You should be Adamant or Jolly nature, depending on whats more important to you; dealing more damage our outspeeding a few more threats.

You don't want to have Dragon Dance on a Pokemon with a choice item, because then you can't use the stat boosting move and attack. If you are to run a bulky mence, you should probably do it with Leftovers.

My biggest suggestion to you is to just play. Get on shoddy and play more battles, mess with different teams/pokemon, and don't get (too) frustrated when you lose. If you're having extreme difficulty putting together anything, you can go to the RMT Archive here on the site, and you can look at the Smogon Pokedex entries to get in depth descriptions for everything. Playing is the only way you will become better.
 
BurtonEarny said:
Dont listen to him because he is wrong about Ninjask... He can only do one thing AND he is roar bait and dies simply from phazing and coming in on SR a couple of times. Trash actually. Gliscor is versatile and can do SEVERAL things. Your opponent does't look at it and think "let me go get my phazer right quick." He is barely more useful than F.E.A.R. tbh.
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F.E.A.R.? What exactly is that?
 
musiquev24 said:
I was just spending the better half of the last two hours replying to this, only to be auto-relogged onto smogon and lose everything that I had just typed up. So I'll try and redo everything I just was, but in smaller amounts.

Weavile needs Fake Out if you really want him to be an anti lead. That way he can break pokemon's focus sash. I would run Fake Out over Brick Break, giving you Fake Out / Taunt / Counter / Night Slash. You don't need to run any HP EV's, they won't help you survive any specific attacks, and that goes for all of your pokemon with Defense EV's. Weavile should capitolize on its two only good stats, attack and Defense. If you want a bulky lead, Swampert or Metagross will do you much better.

Your Vaporeon's EV's are non optimal for defenses, and it also desperately needs an attack move (Surf). Change its nature to Bold, and put surf in over rest. Using rest on a non sleep talk set (or really a set without a stat boost) is just asking to have another pokemon come in and set up on you. You don't need to invest in speed as much, only enough to cover certain threats, check the smogon entry for Vaporeon for more specifics.

Ninjask is in the same situation as Vaporeon. The Defense EV's really won't do anything for you (unless you run some HP and defense to survive priority moves) and he also is asking for an attack move, namely X-Scissor. Ninjask suffers from a x2 weakness to Stealth Rock, something you'll see in almost every single game you play (and on that note I suggest you get a user of stealth rock on your own team!). Because of this, Ninjask loses half of his life every time he enters play, assuming SR is on the field. You should either get some good rapid spin use or replace Ninjask with Scizor or Gliscor, as both of them can Baton Pass much more efficiently mid game. Ninjask's baton passing duties are best when he is a lead.

Lucario should be running 252 Atk / 252 Spe. He also should have a life orb. A baton pass recipient should never have a choice item, that really limits their use completely. Running Blaze Kick, Earthquake, and Close Combat is redundant coverage. Everything you listed OHKO'd by blaze kick are already OHKO'd by Close Combat after a boost. Earthquake is in the same boat. I would run Stone Edge and Crunch in those respective spots.

Gyarados should also be running 252 Atk / 252 Spe. Bulky Gyara spreads are more than possible, but yours is not going to work, and as a baton pass recipient you want him to be as dangerous as possible. You want to run Earthquake over rest. This will give you better coverage, and running rest is just asking for a stat boosting pokemon to jump in and set up on you. You should be Adamant or Jolly nature, depending on whats more important to you; dealing more damage our outspeeding a few more threats.

You don't want to have Dragon Dance on a Pokemon with a choice item, because then you can't use the stat boosting move and attack. If you are to run a bulky mence, you should probably do it with Leftovers.

My biggest suggestion to you is to just play. Get on shoddy and play more battles, mess with different teams/pokemon, and don't get (too) frustrated when you lose. If you're having extreme difficulty putting together anything, you can go to the RMT Archive here on the site, and you can look at the Smogon Pokedex entries to get in depth descriptions for everything. Playing is the only way you will become better.
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The last paragraph that you posted is by far the best advice that has been on this thread so far. I've been working with a few new ideas, and I have changed around this team some. I should get around to posting those changes soon, but, for now, thank you so much.

Losing isn't frustrating, it's just that too many loses makes you feel like you need some drastic changes, makes you feel like you've done something wrong, and in some cases, you have. Being new isn't the worst thing that can happen to someone like me, it's just not knowing everything that is out there. Weaknesses, better EV spreads, etc...

I'll test this team more, and see what I can come up with. Thanks again.
 
Danyul said:
I would recommend spending some time reading the Smogon strategy dex. Your EVs and natures are all over the place and are rarely optimal. Why would you bother giving Weavile any HP? What specifically does 252 speed let Vaporeon outspeed that is more valuable than giving it HP EVs? Is it really a good idea to have a 0 spd EV -speed Gyarados?

Passing defense with Vaporeon seems to me like a waste of time. Your sweepers would much prefer big bulky subs than +2 defense any day. If I were you though I would just cut Vaporeon out of the baton pass chain and let it stand alone as a wish supporter and general bulky water, with a set like surf / hp electric / protect / wish. That way you have some Gyarados insurance too.

Your Lucario's whole set is very non-optimal, read the smogon dex entry to see what you should use. Sorry if that sounds uncreative or something, but it's in the dex because it's the best set, and you should be using the best sets on all your pokemon.

For you Gyarados, rework your EV spread. Either go offensive with 252 Atk / 252 Spd Adamant or go bulky with whatever the bulky Gyara EVs are now, they were just changed but check the smogon dex. You should replace Rest, which does not really make sense in that slot, with Earthquake or maybe even Bounce, which is a pretty neat option for taking out Celebi, one of Gyarados' biggest counters.

And then your Salamence for the most part is fine, but if I were you I would replace Dragon Claw with Outrage to let you power through your opponent's bulky water. Also, Fire Blast is generally a better option than Fire Fang, because it does more to most Steel types, which tend to have higher Defense than Special Defense, even after multiple Dragon Dances, because of the much higher base power. I would also rework your EV spread so that you can outspeed Jolly Lucario, so you can use Salamence as a check to it.

The last thing I will say is that you have this whole baton pass strategy and then three sweepers who don't even really care about getting speed passed to them. Sure they like it but Lucario has a priority attack and Salamence and Gyarados have a way to boost their speed. Because of that, to be honest I would ditch the whole baton passing strategy. Your sweepers can do fine without the passed speed.

So assuming you ditch Ninjask, you now have lead-Weavile, wish vaporeon, sd luke, dd gyara and dd mence. Right now it looks like you have a pretty big electric weakness, which will make specsjolteon and zapdos a pain. Your last slot is a little tricky to fill, but I would consider a CBTyranitar. It is bulky enough to wall most special attackers, and appreciates your duo of intimidating fighting resists. Not only that but it will be able to pursuit away those annoying Rotom and Celebi standing in Lucario's way. That's just one suggestion though.

Well I hope that helped. I guarantee you if you make most of those changes your team will be more competetive
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I will certainly give them a try.
 
I dont know much about Baton Passing teams, but I have faced enought of them to say this. Use Ninjask as you lead. Its speed boos is great and after a swords dance you can baton pass to somthing else. Also, since stealth rock isnt out on turn one, it will live longer. Stupid Stealth Rock >:(
 
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