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np: UU - The Boys Are Back in Town

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Flyers resist Fighting thus 150>90. Leaf Blade is redaunt on Gallade, resisted by so much and then again giving Flyers another move to resist. Exeggutor walls Psychic/Fighting but loses to Ice. Altaria is key. Also, Ice Punch covers all in one move, Lead Blade leaves you wide open to Xatu and is only neutral against the Nidos (which also resist SE), who would all lose to Ice Punch-Ice Punch unlike Psycho Cut, doesn't give any STAB Sucker Punch user-expecially Cacturne and Honchkrow-a free switch.
Pardon me, am I just used to OU/Uber coverage tables? Virtually any able Fighter uses Ice moves in OU, is it the same in UU?
 
Flyers of UU: Altaria, Honchrow, Moltres, Scyther, Swellow.(I don't think I forgot any). Against Altaria and Scyther Ice Punch is more effective, and on the other three Close Combat is the best choice. I'm still to see the day in which Gallade will outspeed a Swellow or a Scyther, so that leaves Moltres (which I doubt is outsped nowadays, as the Lead must have been tweaked to outspeed Gallade), Honchrow and Altaria (Defensive set). Running Ice Punch exclusively for Altaria when you could hit other things harder with LB/PC doesn't seem the best choice.
Edit to your edit: Exeggutor is? NU; Xatu is? NU (And both of them are hit for SE damage by Shadow Sneak) and the Nidos got Poison typing, meaning they are hit harder by Psycho Cut than by Ice Punch.
 
If you were refering to a boosted CC you shoudn't have mentioned Roserade, because i doubt it can survive a boosted one (I might be wrong though, so correct me if I'm mistaken).
Concerning Ice Punch, most flying types will outspeed and OHKO Gallade, not mattering at all if it has got Ice Punch or not. Actually the only one that comes to my mind against which Ice Punch is more effective than CC and that Gallade outspeeds is Altaria. About grass types, a CC will have a base power of 180 counting STAB, more than 150 of a SE Ice Punch, and when it comes to Grass/Poison types, Psycho Cut hits much harder because of STAB and higher base power. Finally Claydol can be hit by Leaf Blade, and harder than by Ice Punch.

Close Combat does more.

120 Base Power * 1.5 STAB = 180 Base Power.
75 Base Power * 2x Super Effective = 150 Base Power.

Edit: Slow ninja.
Roserade and Venusaur are both Grass/Poison. Poison resists Fighting so you end up with 90 vs 150. Roserade isn't UU anymore so it doesn't matter, and both are hit harder by Psycho Cut than Ice Punch, it'd only really hit Altaria and Claydol.
 
Flyers resist Fighting thus 150>90. Leaf Blade is redaunt on Gallade, resisted by so much and then again giving Flyers another move to resist. Exeggutor walls Psychic/Fighting but loses to Ice. Altaria is key. Also, Ice Punch covers all in one move, Lead Blade leaves you wide open to Xatu and is only neutral against the Nidos (which also resist SE), who would all lose to Ice Punch-Ice Punch unlike Psycho Cut, doesn't give any STAB Sucker Punch user-expecially Cacturne and Honchkrow-a free switch.
Pardon me, am I just used to OU/Uber coverage tables? Virtually any able Fighter uses Ice moves in OU, is it the same in UU?

UU is a bit different, as there aren't many flying types, so Ice isn't always needed, but there are more poison types, so a Stab Psycho Cut is usually really useful, as is Leaf Blade or Night Slash to hit bulkier Psychics (who usually have a secondary type weak to leaf blade). I'd think for flying Stone Edge would get the nod over Ice Punch as well since it hits Moltres.

From playing around with Alakazam, it really needs to find what it's supposed to do, because as a sweeper the priority kills it, so it either needs substitutes or a new job. I'm thinking Wall killler, as between its support options and attack stat (combined with its craptastic defenses), its best bet is setting up on walls, though it could be good as a revenge killer.
 
The analysis is referring to the OU metagame, and not always the analysis' set is the best. You can just check Mixdoom set and see what I'm talking about.
 
Thunder Fang is pretty useless in UU, as Milotic won't care at all and Azumarill got Aqua Jet, so it should be replaced by Dark Pulse, to halt RegiBro combo; Fire Blast is superior to Overheat (at least in my opinion, as it won't require a switch if you Overheat something resistant to it), and the spread should allow it to outspeed Timid Rotom.
 
Admittedly I've only been playing UU for less than a week, but I was quite shocked to see Froslass, Raikou, and Gallade dropped down after all the controversy of banning them in the first place (I follow all tiers). Here's my thoughts after playing for two days after the update:

Roserade: The bulky ones who could throw down spikes were sort of annoying, but it was definitely not broken. The current tiering system however, is. I understand everything there is to understand about tiers, but having Roserade get a sudden boom in popularity in a completely different one shouldn't affect it's status in UU. Especially since Roserade usage DROPPED before it got banned. Does anyone honestly think Roserade is more broken than any of the BLs or UU suspects? (heck, it's not even as bad as some who stayed in UU)

Gallade: I'm on the ropes about this, mainly because after over 50 battles, I can't recall seeing one. I have been using it on my team however, and it is indeed quite a threat. Is it broken, though? I can't tell because nobody's using it. I thought proving a Pokemon is broken is supposed to involve using it, not boycotting it.

Raikou: Good thing this guy came along, otherwise I'd be tearing my hair out on how to deal with Milotic without having to use a crappy Venasaur or the like. I haven't had many bad experiences playing against this, also because I don't see it very much! Or perhaps it's because I'm running Dugtrio, who doesn't even die from HP Ice due to the small SpDef investment I gave Duggy.

Froslass: This is the only suspect I'm currently wanting to ban. It's as ridiculous as ever and you'd need the intelligence of an ant not to be able to set up. Even worse than it's massive utility is its overcentralizing power. Rock Blast Cloyster? Really? This thing has single-handedly spurred the use of silly and otherwise-useless anti-leads. I tried UU to get away from the lead bullshit that OU has, and then this comes along. Ugh. I'd say ban it again and keep it there for good.

Well there's my lowly opinion, tl;dr honestly I think only Froslass should go to BL atm. Also tiering system is dumb.
 
I understand everything there is to understand about tiers

No you don't, evidently you don't from the rest of your post.

Does anyone honestly think Roserade is more broken than any of the BLs or UU suspects?

No, but it's a completely irrelevant point anyway.

Rock Blast Cloyster? Really?

What's wrong with Rock Blast Cloyster? I bet you haven't even tried it. Though after testing both, I still prefer Payback, partly because of its reliability.
 
I honestly believe that people dislike Froslass simply because they may have to carry a Rapid Spinner on their team. Which is silly there are 3-4 perfectly viable Rapid Spinners to used.
 
No you don't, evidently you don't from the rest of your post.



No, but it's a completely irrelevant point anyway.



What's wrong with Rock Blast Cloyster? I bet you haven't even tried it. Though after testing both, I still prefer Payback, partly because of its reliability.
Are you trying to argue? I'm fine with that, but not with you making two smartass sentences in the hopes of making me do everything. If you're really interested in arguing UU Pokemon, you could at least make a small effort.

As for the Cloyster, it's one of many Pokemon who have emerged from complete obscurity, all because of Froslass. That's called overcentralizing if I remember correctly.
 
Are you trying to argue? I'm fine with that, but not with you making two smartass sentences in the hopes of making me do everything. If you're really interested in arguing UU Pokemon, you could at least make a small effort.

I would, except for the fact that I have argued about this with others many, many times before, and I am not prepared to waste hours going through them again and again every time some noob inevitably turns up and displays a lack of basic understanding as to why the tiers are the way they are. You should be doing everything you can: starting with reading the whole thread and perusing the main site for more information on why Smogon organizes the tiers the way they do.

As for the Cloyster, it's one of many Pokemon who have emerged from complete obscurity, all because of Froslass. That's called overcentralizing if I remember correctly.

Or it's just the appearance of a new-found niche for a previously less viable Pokemon that helps you to win matches. Quite how NU Pokes becoming more viable makes the metagame more centralizing I will never know. But even if what you said was true, you should know that centralization is not meant to have much of a bearing on whether a Pokemon should be BL by itself.
 
A Pokemon cannot be OU and UU at the same time. Since Roserade is used enough to become OU, it is banned from UU. This is the thing that you don't seem to understand about the tiering process.
 
As for the Cloyster, it's one of many Pokemon who have emerged from complete obscurity, all because of Froslass. That's called overcentralizing if I remember correctly.

The thing is, overcentralization is if you use something only to check one thing in particular, meaning that the rest of the time it's dead weight on your team. For example, this does not mean that if you throw something like Torterra on your team solely to check Registeel, that's overcentralization, because Torterra, used right, can be effective against many other Pokémon as well (Rhyperior, Slowbro, and Aggron come to mind).

Similarly, Lemmiwink's Cloyster is not dead weight on his team - he's said before, and I believe him, that Cloyster serves a useful purpose on his team, thus its inclusion. Before Froslass's inclusion, it may not have done enough to warrant a slot for him, but its induction finally pushed it over the hump, and many battlers have a good use for it, where it is not outclassed by other Pokémon (Blastoise, Omastar, Qwilfish).

Honestly, we haven't seen any real overcentralization yet. Actually, I'm kind of disappointed in this early testing period - the whole metagame is radically unstable, and it feels like January all over again. But that's my opinion - I just haven't been to adjust yet.

Ambipom is EVERYWHERE. What's up with creating anti-Froslass leads, when they can't handle Ambipom (Read: other Ambipom)? In all this hubbub, one Pokémon has stood out to me as an effective check to the current Top 2 Leads - Spiritomb.

Ambipom can't do anything to it, neither can Froslass. On the former, just spam Pursuit, the latter, Pursuit + Shadow Sneak.
 
Okay, all three are you are right in most aspects. I can see I have a lot more to understand about the details behind the game, and I apologize for being stupid and overly opinionated.

Zorbee's post in particular made a lot of sense and I'm not sure how I overlooked that. However I still don't like the thing with Roserade. The only reason it moved up to OU was because of Toxic Spikes (and kind of a sorta-accurate sleep move, but mostly TS), however Toxic Spikes is barely even used in UU due to all the Poison and Flying types. Also just because it's good enough for Ou doesn't mean it's too good for UU (in fact the opposite became apparent just before it was banned, because it couldn't even stay in the top 3 anymore)

Anyone care to explain about this?
 
On Froslass lead, I've been using it a lot, and it's definitely good, but it can easily be played around so that it only gets 0-1 layers of Spikes before it dies.

If lead Fros Taunts on turn 1, the opponent has the attack + priority option, or U-turn into a scarfed attacker. Both options keep Fros from ever laying a single layer of Spikes. Even if it does lay spikes, Rapid Spinners are good in UU.

To me, Froslass lead in UU feels very much like Azelf lead in OU, and I don't feel it should go back to BL.
 
Okay, all three are you are right in most aspects. I can see I have a lot more to understand about the details behind the game, and I apologize for being stupid and overly opinionated.

Zorbee's post in particular made a lot of sense and I'm not sure how I overlooked that. However I still don't like the thing with Roserade. The only reason it moved up to OU was because of Toxic Spikes (and kind of a sorta-accurate sleep move, but mostly TS), however Toxic Spikes is barely even used in UU due to all the Poison and Flying types. Also just because it's good enough for Ou doesn't mean it's too good for UU (in fact the opposite became apparent just before it was banned, because it couldn't even stay in the top 3 anymore)

Anyone care to explain about this?
lol you say that zorbees' post makes sense yet you seem not to understand the most basic premise of his post

"a pokemon cannot be ou and uu at the same time"

therefore if roserade is ou, it automatically is banned from uu -- regardless of whether it is broken in uu or not.

usage has nothing to do with brokenness. yanmega was 7th in september and 6th in august and it is pretty damn bl.

edit: haven't played a single game yet but does anyone think part of the reason why rhyperior fits into the metagame is that it combines aspects of regirock / registeel (normal / fly resist) with aspects of donphan? just something i thought of that was kind of interesting (i.e. how well would rhyperior have worked in a pre-donphan metagame)
 
Major theorymon idea, I'm going to make a Drapion lead, as it has Taunt, Toxic Spikes, Crunch/Pursuit and Protect (for fake out leads and leftovers recovery). It should have enough bulk to take hits from the standard Froslass and Ambipom (as well as slower leads and the pixies). I'll test it out and post the results here
 
Have any of you recently had success with Gallade? I have it on my team right now and i never use it. I really don't see what the hype was about. I havn't had any problems with it.
 
One humorous little thing I've noticed, is that with CM Raikou running around bulky Pokemon can't runt the special sets they are used to, Claydol has to have earthquake, Venasaur has to have Earthquake, just to keep from being set up on by Raikou.

Also to me the only one that has seemed really broken is Raikou. Alakazam, Umbreon, and Rhyperior seem to fit right in without even causing too much of a stir, they just aren't that great. Froslass isn't all that great struggling to ever get down more than one layer, and Gallade hasn't caused to many problems for me or done much for me, altogether I'm underwhelmed by all of the new Pokemon, and the old suspects. (except for Raikou)
 
I'm itching to try out this new metagame. Once I can get Shoddy working on my computer again I'm going to start laddering.

This is purely theorymon, but has anyone tried lead Kabutops again? Against Froslass, it's obvious - Rock Slide followed by Aqua Jet for the kill, and it even has a chance to spin away any Spikes. Against Ambipom, I'm not sure if Low Kick is affected by Technician or not. If it is, then Kabutops doesn't do that well, but Kabutops will beat Life Orb Ambipom 100% of the time if it is running a very bulky spread, and will almost always beat Focus Sash Ambipom. Waterfall + Aqua Jet coming from max Atk Kabutops usually is enough to KO even without Life Orb recoil, and will always survive a Life Orb Fake Out + Low Kick with max HP (coming from Jolly Ambipom). However, if Low Kick is not boosted by Technician, then Kabutops takes on Ambipom with ease, avoiding a KO from Fake Out + Low Kick + Low Kick and easily taking it out with health to spare.
 
Venusaur switch over to physical since HG/SS gave him power whip >.>. It's too early to tell what's broken atm, since counters will always emerge, as will counters to those counters, Raikou is just a good reason to have a phazer or encore user and a good electric resist. Honchkrow actually seems to be the most suspect to me (BB limits his counters to Luxray, and now Raikou and Rhyperior, so his fate should revolve around what happens to those guys). Raikou is making the biggest splash though.
 
Major theorymon idea, I'm going to make a Drapion lead, as it has Taunt, Toxic Spikes, Crunch/Pursuit and Protect (for fake out leads and leftovers recovery). It should have enough bulk to take hits from the standard Froslass and Ambipom (as well as slower leads and the pixies). I'll test it out and post the results here
I've used a drapion similar to this one before... wasn't too hot tbh. Ambipom still hurts him, though I never used protect. the trouble is that venusaur is one of the better checks on raikou right now and he is actually fairly common making toxic spikes little better of an option than it used to be.
 
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