ok, my argument is that Froslass doesn't break the metagame, but merely shifts it. It doesn't beat the #1 lead (not even close actually) and has practical counters that can be made into leads that beat it with a little development of the metagame. Some of these leads not only beat it, but set up useful things for their teams (hazards or screens), while others are effective at beating more than just Froslass. With a little ingenuity (instead of just using the same leads that used to work) he does nothing to break the metagame, he just changes it.
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np: UU - The Boys Are Back in Town
- Thread starter JabbaTheGriffin
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ok, my argument is that Froslass doesn't break the metagame, but merely shifts it. It doesn't beat the #1 lead (not even close actually) and has practical counters that can be made into leads that beat it with a little development of the metagame. Some of these leads not only beat it, but set up useful things for their teams (hazards or screens), while others are effective at beating more than just Froslass. With a little ingenuity (instead of just using the same leads that used to work) he does nothing to break the metagame, he just changes it.
I'm just saying, that the one guy just isn't willing to listen to what others say, and he keeps nitpicking. I'm simply responding in kind.
Personally, I feel Froslass is UU. But that may be because my leads always have some advantage over her, without meaning to. I don't have to overprepare, and my teams don't mind Spikes.
Ambipom is bullshit, though. I'm running Swellow and Spiritomb on my team because of it - though they do do great against other threats as well.
Personally, I feel Froslass is UU. But that may be because my leads always have some advantage over her, without meaning to. I don't have to overprepare, and my teams don't mind Spikes.
Ambipom is bullshit, though. I'm running Swellow and Spiritomb on my team because of it - though they do do great against other threats as well.
It's kinda funny, with all the new pokemon in the tier, I still think Ambipom and Honchkrow are the most suspect.
Ambipom is easily the best lead, beating almost anything and preventing setup on most of the rest. I think Alakazam is the only thing that beats it and holds up to the other leads.
Honchkrow lost almost all of his counters with BB, so he's pretty sure to get at least one ko, and has two immunities (and a sleep immunity) to come in on. BB/Sucker Punch/Superpower/Pursuit, there goes 2 of your pokemon with no setup needed.
Ambipom is easily the best lead, beating almost anything and preventing setup on most of the rest. I think Alakazam is the only thing that beats it and holds up to the other leads.
Honchkrow lost almost all of his counters with BB, so he's pretty sure to get at least one ko, and has two immunities (and a sleep immunity) to come in on. BB/Sucker Punch/Superpower/Pursuit, there goes 2 of your pokemon with no setup needed.
Froslass has always been a great lead. Its not broken, it is a great support Pokemon but the way I'm seeing it the metagame is slowly adapting to it. With these new leads, people should really stop panicking as you just need to find a way to check it without over centralizing. These are a couple off the top of my head without going overboard or some may call it "over centralizing". But its not really a valid reason to send it to BL.
- U-turn Uxie
- Pursuit / Taunt Ambipom
- Lead Cloyster
- Lead Kabutops
- Spiritomb
- Froslass
an Anti-Lead version with Shadowball/Ice Shard will beat the standard spiker.
Right now I'm looking into trick leads that can give it a Macho Brace, since it cripples its speed and removes the sash, meaning it has to leave or die
Right now I'm looking into trick leads that can give it a Macho Brace, since it cripples its speed and removes the sash, meaning it has to leave or die
I thought of a Fling Lead with Poison Barb. First, Fling would do super effective 60 or 70 BP (I forgot how much exactly) damage to 'lass, then the side effect of the Poison Barb would poison it and take it out in one round.
Then I realized I was overpreparing for Froslass ans stopped bothering.
I've actually encountered more Dual Screen leads than TrickScarf =/
That's weird because the ones I face are almost always standard SR / U-turn fare.
Anyway, I have been trying out Blastoise as a lead recently, and it has been working out quite well. What's nice about it is that it can not only beat Froslass leads, but also some of the other leads that have seen increased usage recently that do a similar thing, like Cloyster and Kabutops. Hydro Pump with max special attack and Mystic Water boost really stings against anything not resistant or Chansey, dealing up to 50% against standard Uxie leads, and 2HKOing Cloyster despite the resistance with its craptastic special defense. It can even 3HKO some Registeels, though not many, but the damage is respectable nonetheless. When it gets into Torrent range, it can deliver one hell of a final blow, or even sweep in the right conditions, however unlikely. Receiving a Choice Scarf from the pixies could also help it beat up normally faster shit late game, at the cost of losing the versatility it needs to perform its job effectively.
Of course, the biggest problem is Hydro Pump's unreliability and low PP that can be costly sometimes, but I still think the extra damage output is worth the risk to keep using it over Surf. Surf can't guarantee a 2HKO against all Spiritombs, to give one example.
Anyway, I have been trying out Blastoise as a lead recently, and it has been working out quite well. What's nice about it is that it can not only beat Froslass leads, but also some of the other leads that have seen increased usage recently that do a similar thing, like Cloyster and Kabutops. Hydro Pump with max special attack and Mystic Water boost really stings against anything not resistant or Chansey, dealing up to 50% against standard Uxie leads, and 2HKOing Cloyster despite the resistance with its craptastic special defense. It can even 3HKO some Registeels, though not many, but the damage is respectable nonetheless. When it gets into Torrent range, it can deliver one hell of a final blow, or even sweep in the right conditions, however unlikely. Receiving a Choice Scarf from the pixies could also help it beat up normally faster shit late game, at the cost of losing the versatility it needs to perform its job effectively.
Of course, the biggest problem is Hydro Pump's unreliability and low PP that can be costly sometimes, but I still think the extra damage output is worth the risk to keep using it over Surf. Surf can't guarantee a 2HKO against all Spiritombs, to give one example.
I feel the need for the priority with Aqua Jet, not just for beating Froslass but for checking certain sweepers like Houndoom and other Fire types. Also gives me an option against Dugtrio and Rhyperior when I can't take a hit from them.
Even if I could use Water Spout, I wouldn't like the fact that the power drops dramatically when not at close to 100% health. And the set is Hydro Pump / Ice Beam / Aqua Jet / Rapid Spin. It is not meant to be a special sweeping tank, but more of an aggressive utility Pokemon with a cool niche against the lead scene right now.
Even if I could use Water Spout, I wouldn't like the fact that the power drops dramatically when not at close to 100% health. And the set is Hydro Pump / Ice Beam / Aqua Jet / Rapid Spin. It is not meant to be a special sweeping tank, but more of an aggressive utility Pokemon with a cool niche against the lead scene right now.
with the increase in lass and gallade usage, there is clearly going to be a huge increase in the amount of tombs used as a viable counter, but what is the best way to counter tomb? no doubt most teams will need a good counter for him, as he'll probably appear in 9 out of ten teams now.
Although I actually haven't seen too many Spiritomb, Houndoom does pretty well against most kinds of Spiritomb, resisting both STABs and sporting an immunity to WoW. However, it doesn't like being tricked a CB.
On another note: Approximately when will the rating reset occur? Or has it already happened?
On another note: Approximately when will the rating reset occur? Or has it already happened?
I think spiritomb is my favorite lead right now tbh. Takes about half health from ambipom with pursuit on the switch. Pursuit then shadow sneak kos froslass and alakazam (I still really like sucker punch for general damage dealing but shadow sneak is proving nice for beating leads and countering the things he needs to counter); he can pursuit spam uxie leads nearly koing them depending on how long they stay in. WoW's regi and donphan leads making them more or less dead weight for their team though I havent played really any of these as leads since uu changed. Against houndoom and moltress he is pretty lame, but thankfully they are more rare for the time being. Obviously he isn't as versatile a lead as ambipom, but he is bulkier and, to me and my playstyle, more useful.
Blaziken can switch in and then blast whatever switches in with powerful Fire Blasts and Flare Blitz's. The inevitable decrease in Milotic will only help it rise in usage.
While Miltank and Kanghakhan can't switch in directly thanks to W-o-w (miltank has heal bell but w/e), their Scrappy Ability + speed + normal typing will be valuable with Gallade and Spirtomb all around. Kanghaskhan also has sucker punch to deal with Alakazam. I foresee a rise in Kanga to UU.
How about that Mismagius? With the combination of Honkrow Gallade Alakazam Raikou (and by extension, the Dugtrio that has been everywhere to revenge it) Missy has no time to set up nasty plot anymore. She'd currently probably be better in OU where after scizor is taken out she could put quite a hurt with NP 3 attacks.
I also have yet to encounter a single Aggron.
I'm continuing to find Scarf Drapion to be a consistently great revenge killer with Crunch/EQ/Pursuit/Poison Jab. It's worked great ever since the beginning of UU.
I really like umbreon now. Heal bell has allowed it to pull off a set that is, or at least it was, illegal on chansey (heal bell + wish combo). He has better typing and counters the same special threats about as well. The main difference among the two that I have noticed is that raikou w/ screen support sets up on umbreon and doesn't on chansey.
It doesn't 2HKO mine on average....what EVs were you using for Cloyster. I EV'd mine to survive a Froslass/Mesprit/Uxie Tbolt, Alakhazam Psychic, and a Scarf Air Slash from Moltres ^_^. (only needed a few SpD EVs).
According to the September stats, 60% of Uxies were leads and only 21.6% of all Uxies carried a scarf. At most, a third of all lead Uxies were scarfers. Virtually all of these also had trick.
I have actually been using Return over Pain Split on Spiritomb, and using Wish support for healing. It works rather well, 2HKOing the predictable Houndoom switch and doing around 40-45% to Blazikens, though I run 160 Attack EVs on mine. With SR residual damage and possible LO / normal recoil factored in, Blaziken can easily be 2HKO'd whilst not KOing back. Though I only do that if I need to and have nothing else to take its attacks, which I often do. Regardless, after switching into Return once, Blaziken can't reliably switch in again, particularly with Shadow Sneak taking it down at less than ~25%.
Only a few SpD EVs? Here are the calcs I get for an arbitrary 252 / 96 neutral spread taking Hydro Pump:
295 SpA STAB Hydro Pump w/ Mystic Water vs. 304 HP / 150 SpD Cloyster: 153-180 HP damage (50.33 - 59.21%)
That is around an 80% chance to 2HKO with Leftovers IIRC, so you must be running more special defense than that at least, at which point it can hardly be considered a small investment. Main point though is that most Cloysters are not running much if any special defense as they need the heavy offensive investment to threaten the things they need to threaten. But even against max / max+ variants, it is at least a 3HKO, and Blastoise has a good chance of spinning away any Spikes with the mindgames between Hydro Pump and Rapid Spin.
I say scarf Manectric is the best special sweeper in UU, next to Mismagius that is. And since it got Switcheroo in HGSS it has a perfect scarf set without having to look for a filler move, and still being able to switch items on somebody, making it even more unpredictable. I use a scarf Manectric on my team, and it has won me many battles. I'm just surprised not as many people use it. Its the best electric type in the UU metagame.
No need to show that kind of sarcasm, Earny. He simply stated, and gave reason for, why he thought Manectric was the best Electric-type in UU. Honestly, I can see where he's coming from - it can beat Raikou 1 vs. 1 if it switches items.
But Raikou is very good. You really have to know the HP type to take it down, and I have to run two Pokémon to counter it - one to take HP Ice, the other for HP Grass/Water.
But Raikou is very good. You really have to know the HP type to take it down, and I have to run two Pokémon to counter it - one to take HP Ice, the other for HP Grass/Water.
Pikachu is the best Electric type in UU. Period.
On a more serious note, Rain smashes through nearly everything right now. However, Umbreon is a pain; it can Wish/Protect-stall out pretty much all rain sweepers.
I don't like the lead metagame. While Froslass may not be BL, it's still shitty to face.
Raikou has been great as usual.
On a more serious note, Rain smashes through nearly everything right now. However, Umbreon is a pain; it can Wish/Protect-stall out pretty much all rain sweepers.
I don't like the lead metagame. While Froslass may not be BL, it's still shitty to face.
Raikou has been great as usual.
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