np: UU - Can't Touch This

[Thund91]

This point especially is true. Heysup/ToF you seem to be operating under the assumption that everyone is bordering on mental retardation, which extremely cocky and condescending.

I don't think they meant it like that, well, at least ToF didn't. It's just people have this backward mentality of "oh Cress has been OU forever it's a Garchomp counter it's so broken."

Now i've used Cress on both offensive and defensive teams, as a SubCMer and support, and honestly it's been kinda underwhelming. The SubCMer can't set up on as much as you think and get's beaten by a lot of common pokemon. Registeel and Chansey have no problems with it, and it really has a hard time sweeping if it has to take hard hits from Swellow, Arcanine, Mismagius, etc...

Defensive sets are easy to take advantage of. Cresselia hits pretty weak so any pokemon that is at least neutral to her combo Psychic/Ice Beam can set up on her. Calm Mind Alakazam(SubCM owns her even harder), SD Drapion, NP Houndoom, NP Porygon-Z(who I actually have much more trouble defeating) etc. You can take advantage of Thunder Wave by getting another boost by using Lum Berry. And using Lum Berry isn't only for Cress as it's always a handy item. You can then sweep the opponents team because poor Cresselia was too hopeless to do anything, and now it's too late.

 

[Smurf.]

I don't think they meant it like that, well, at least ToF didn't. It's just people have this backward mentality of "oh Cress has been OU forever it's a Garchomp counter it's so broken."

Now i've used Cress on both offensive and defensive teams, as a SubCMer and support, and honestly it's been kinda underwhelming. The SubCMer can't set up on as much as you think and get's beaten by a lot of common pokemon. Registeel and Chansey have no problems with it, and it really has a hard time sweeping if it has to take hard hits from Swellow, Arcanine, Mismagius, etc...

Defensive sets are easy to take advantage of. Cresselia hits pretty weak so any pokemon that is at least neutral to her combo Psychic/Ice Beam can set up on her. Calm Mind Alakazam(SubCM owns her even harder), SD Drapion, NP Houndoom, NP Porygon-Z(who I actually have much more trouble defeating) etc. You can take advantage of Thunder Wave by getting another boost by using Lum Berry. And using Lum Berry isn't only for Cress as it's always a handy item. You can then sweep the opponents team because poor Cresselia was too hopeless to do anything, and now it's too late.

Finally, someone with some good reasoning and arguments. You certainly have a point there, but you seem to neglect that Cress is not a one man army. It can be used as a lure, allowing Dugtrio to clean up before it returns. The NP lum P-Z I posted is the only method i have found to consistently defeat Cress. Nevertheless, as I believe this set to be badly broken, it doesnt really have any merit in this discussion.

 

[Thund91]

Finally, someone with some good reasoning and arguments. You certainly have a point there, but you seem to neglect that Cress is not a one man army. It can be used as a lure, allowing Dugtrio to clean up before it returns. The NP lum P-Z I posted is the only method i have found to consistently defeat Cress. Nevertheless, as I believe this set to be badly broken, it doesnt really have any merit in this discussion.

Many pokemon can be used as a lure. I can use my Moltres to lure in Milotic and send in Venusaur. I can use my Registeel as a lure for Donphan and send out Rotom. But I do believe what you're trying to get at is that Dugtrio has decent synergy with Cresselia, which is true in some cases. But you have to have good prediction. What if that Drapion Night Slashes off the bat instead of Swords Dancing? Then you would have wasted Dugtrio for no reason. Sadly Dugtrio has a tough time with Scyther and Absol/Houndoom if not carrying substitute, and they're common checks for Cress. Alakazam is a speed tie and if you Sucker Punch while they Sub you're as good as dead. Or they can just keep Calm Minding if they know you're banded. Dugtrio is kinda a double-edged sword. He's a good guarantee against certain threats but he leaves you in an extremely weak state. It's really easy to abuse Dugtrio and send out something like SD Leafeon, LO Moltres, or Torterra and use the free turn. Chansey can even stall out Dugtrio with Wish + Protect I believe. Sadly Dugtrio is only really decent with Cress if you're opponent is relying on Registeel or Drapion as a counter, otherwise he's way too risky to use just to "rid" of Cresselia's counters.

 

[Lemmiwinks MkII]

The SubCMer can't set up on as much as you think and get's beaten by a lot of common pokemon. Registeel and Chansey have no problems with it

Really? Relying on Chansey and Registeel to beat SubCM Cress is a very risky commitment and there is a fair chance of them losing the battle, particularly if they opt for Shed Shell. Lose the battle and Cress likely sweeps with +4 to +6 and behind a Sub. Registeel has a decent chance if running Curse, but it is still likely to fall to those with HP Ground

 

[jamashawalker]

Many pokemon can be used as a lure. I can use my Moltres to lure in Milotic and send in Venusaur. I can use my Registeel as a lure for Donphan and send out Rotom. But I do believe what you're trying to get at is that Dugtrio has decent synergy with Cresselia, which is true in some cases. But you have to have good prediction. What if that Drapion Night Slashes off the bat instead of Swords Dancing? Then you would have wasted Dugtrio for no reason. Sadly Dugtrio has a tough time with Scyther and Absol/Houndoom if not carrying substitute, and they're common checks for Cress. Alakazam is a speed tie and if you Sucker Punch while they Sub you're as good as dead. Or they can just keep Calm Minding if they know you're banded. Dugtrio is kinda a double-edged sword. He's a good guarantee against certain threats but he leaves you in an extremely weak state. It's really easy to abuse Dugtrio and send out something like SD Leafeon, LO Moltres, or Torterra and use the free turn. Chansey can even stall out Dugtrio with Wish + Protect I believe. Sadly Dugtrio is only really decent with Cress if you're opponent is relying on Registeel or Drapion as a counter, otherwise he's way too risky to use just to "rid" of Cresselia's counters.

I agree with alot you are saying here, alot of them are true..but TOO true if you kinda catch my drift...When you say that with GOOD prediction when playing against dugtrio then hey, good prediction wins any game no matter how the teams may be lol...And with dugtrio being set up bait for LO Moltres...well LO moltres is already up for discussion for being BL as dugtrio is not the only case for moltres's scenario where moltres can come in and threaten...And using the Torterra example is just another reason why Cresselia is changing this metagame...I've seen a RP torterra sweep through an entire team multiple times because their teams were not ready for that threat due to the fact that they built counters regarding cress and PZ...making them completely vunerable to simple sets...heh my own defensive torterra has been the MVP for this current metagame because of all Cresselia and PZ counters out there, aka drapion, technitop,absol,dugtrio, sandstorm teams and more

For the counters that you say is set up bait for cresselia...you are forgetting cresselia's defensive/support movepool....Thunderwave/reflect/trick...you mentioned lum berry, but if i really have to add a lum berry to the majority of my sweepers just to watch out for cresselia's thunderwave...It always has been viable, not saying it hasnt been, but if the usage of running lum berry has increased then this backs up Cresselia even more...Bulky PZ has truly been the only one who has been taking advantage of the Defensive Cress sets...I havent seen an increase in houndoom though to be honest....I think cause PZ is outclassing it...but when i do it's always ran Life Orb over Lum Berry

 

[Heysup]

Well I wouldn't be the first now would I? >_>

Uh...yes, yes you would be. You are seriously trying to state that Cresselia is "factually" broken? That is a horrible way to try and get your point across, trust me I've been there and done that.

I have to say I'm going to side with Jamasha here. Offensive Cress is a considerable threat, right up there with the defensive and support sets. Oh wait, that'd be the elusive triple threat wouldnt it? Go have a look at RT.'s team that reached the number one slot.

I agree. I never disagreed. Why are you arguing this?

Im so sorry, I didnt realize you were the supreme ruler of smogon who determines whats broken or not.

Ironically, I am simply stating the same thing to you in that statement. I am saying that you, Smurf., do not get to decide that it is a fact that Cresselia is broken. It is your opinion.

Is that not why Froslass was put up for a suspect vote, in which btw I suspect personal interest usurped common sense. Is that not why during the hail craze people demanded Snover be banished. The only thing that keeps many stall teams afloat is Cress. I've spectated many such teams where cress is the last poke standing, and from 4-1 down comes up with a "win".

Missed the point. My point was that your argument applies to essentially every other Pokemon. Not just Froslass or Cresselia.

What concrete evidence have you put forward to support that claim? All I've read is "Absol the MVP, you so sexy, have my babies" - or words to that effect. Well unless your playing around in the dredges of the ladder, that is NOT the case. I will say it again: Absol is not by any means a guarenteed counter to Cresselia. The fact there are multiple sets, each arguably BL, means there is no possibility of guarenteeing a counter.

Firstly, if you are going to personal attack / troll me, at least do it in a more creative and comical manner. Better yet, don't do it at all.

Second, I will say this again:

Overall, I would say Absol is just a check

I am not arguing Absol is a counter for Cresselia

That's just on this page. Would it kill someone to read previous posts before making blind assumptions?

Anyway, onto my "concrete evidence", which is the fact (I am stating a fact here, not my opinion, and I'm basing my opinion on this fact) that there are many offensive sweepers who can easily handle Cresselia, or at least check it (hell, as long as they aren't stopped by Cresselia, what do I care?). Drapion, Houndoom, Raikou, Absol, NP/CM Mismagius, NP/CMSpiritomb, Scyther, Porygonz, Froslass, etc. the list goes on.

Not my words, YOURS.

Defensive Characteristic
A Pokémon is uber if, in common battle conditions, it is able to wall and stall out a significant portion of the metagame.

Yes, that was my point. I was trying to help you with your argument which was just you stating "Fact: Cresselia is BL", which is clearly not an argument. Saying "IMO Cresselia is BL because it fits the defensive characteristic"(for example) is a completely valid argument.

If you think Cresselia is BL, great, make an argument and stand by it. Stating that your opinion is a fact does NOT count as an argument. I know this from experience (learned the hard way). Saying "Cresselia is BL, so you are automatically wrong" will get us no where.

Really? Relying on Chansey and Registeel to beat SubCM Cress is a very risky commitment and there is a fair chance of them losing the battle, particularly if they opt for Shed Shell. Lose the battle and Cress likely sweeps with +4 to +6 and behind a Sub. Registeel has a decent chance if running Curse, but it is still likely to fall to those with HP Ground

Well iirc that was pretty well the argument for keeping Raikou UU. At least it was a major part (yes I know Cresselia sets up easier, but Raikou's Speed, STAB, and SpA help a lot in other situations).

I mean, I think Raikou is more BL than Cresselia still, so I guess this doesn't really matter coming from me, but it's just something to think about.

 

[ToF]

The only thing that keeps many stall teams afloat is Cress

The fact that you said this makes me think that everything you present in argument is just your own biased bullshit and that you are equally as guilty for not reading other posts as you are for criticizing others for the same point. Anyway....

Thund summarized a lot of points; he basically counterpointed everything that needed refuting, so good work on that.

Listen, Cresselia isn't doing 50 million things at once. If it runs Thunder Wave, you know can guess that it's some annoying tank. If it runs Calm Mind, its either running Sub + 2 Attacks or a Resttalk set. Every Cresselia set has a few Pokemon that can come in without issue (Chansey, Raikou, even Drapion most of the time). You're not dealing with something like TwaveRestCMIceBeamPsychicHPGroundFight Cresselia ffs. Cresselia does add some element of strategy to the tier in my opinion, which is why we play this game in the first place. You can't just throw it on a team and call your team a 'great team'. My old DP UU teams are working just fine without Cresselia against Cresselia, just adapt to the damn metagame and stop whining. If everyone just claims something is BL before the testing period is even over, you're just being either ignorant about the possibility of it staying in the tier, or biased about its placement because you don't want to play with it. If that's the case, its better off you just boycott the metagame and leave the playtesting to people who avidly want to test shit and not complain all day.

 

[franky]

I'm pretty much in between Cresselia's placement in the tier, but I'm leaning towards BL more. I don't think adapting to the metagame is a strong arguement. Anyone could adapt. You drop someone like Heracross, then you could make adjustments to adapt with Heracross. I think I would look for an in-depth effect of a certain Pokemon has on the tier.

Cresselia is checkable and you could adjust to it. However, when I look in-depth to what Cresselia is doing with the tier, its basically forcing the players to run a stat-up Pokemon to combat with Cresselia or run a defensive Pokemon which could possibly result to PP wars (most of the time). Hey, I'm not whining because the games take longer. I'm saying that PP wars are related to the Uber characteristics: "it is able to wall and stall out a significant portion of the metagame.". The fact is, when your running a defensive Pokemon, the Calm Mind set can literally stall you while at the same time give the defensive Pokemon pressure by launching Psychic or *insert secondmove here*.

What seperates Cresselia from other premiere walls in the tier? (Chansey, Registeel, and Milotic have been brought up to the past for defensive characteristics before).

1. Different typing from the other guys
2. Spikes immunity (levitate)

The aforementioned walls have been brought up for defensive characteristics in the past by some people. But they failed to embody the characteristics. In comparison to Cresselia, I think that Cresselia is on a different level as a defensive Pokemon.

Psychic-typing is completely different from Water-, Steel-, and Normal-type. As a defensive typing, the aforementioned types have weaknesses to the most common attacking type moves, while Psychic gives Cresselia a weakness to Ghost-, Dark-, and Bug-type moves. These are far more uncommon than Fire-, Grass-, Fighting-, and Ground-type moves. That's a good bonus.

I think Spikes immunity is probably the main concern with Cresselia. Aside from adding an immunity to Ground-type hits, Cresselia is immune to Spikes and Toxic Spikes. A lot of people think Spikes is broken in the tier simply because most of the defensive Pokemon in this tier are grounded. Even the premier special wall in the tier could lose to special attackers like Raikou with spikes support. But anyways, going back to the point: Cresselia is immune to Spikes and Toxic Spikes. This allows her to come in and out with impunity throughout the course of the match without losing 25~ per switch. This is key for a defensive Pokemon.

But hey, I'm not totally for BL, I'm on the fence like I said. I don't have any issues with Cresselia with my team, but the fact is when your check is gone, Cresselia is near invincible. (This applies to all Pokemon, but Cresselia has such a small pool of checks/counters).

 

[DougJustDoug]

I have been auditing this thread, because I am very interested in seeing how the Cresselia situation pans out. And I have to say to those of you in the anti-Cress camp -- you really need to step up your game argumentation-wise.

I'm not playing UU, and I have absolutely no bias for or against any pokemon in this tier. I have a strong curiosity about this particular UU test, because from a theorymon perspective, I feel like Cresselia and Porygon-Z represent two very compelling examples of "powerful pokemon". On top of that, they are almost perfectly opposite of each other, in that one is an offensive cannon and the other is a defensive wall. So, as an "interested observer", this particular test is fascinating to me. And I have no preconceived notions or preferences for how this turns out.

I just want to get a good idea of what is really happening out there, and so far I have not seen many solid explanations of why Cresselia should be banned. Threads like this have a lot of crap in them, and I am intentionally ignoring the "line noise" in this thread. So, I'm not talking about the stupid, noob, ill-informed, or just plain bad posters in this thread. I am addressing the battlers that I suspect have real, tangible experience with UU and Cresselia -- and probably could make a decent case for banning it -- but so far, are making horrible arguments to support their position. Whereas, the pro-Cress camp seems to be building a decent case to support that Cresselia does not meet the criteria for banning.

Now, you can ignore my assessment if you want. Although I'm an admin, and I am heavily involved in the tiering process here at Smogon -- I will not have any personal impact on the decision regarding Cresselia. I won't be voting, I won't be selecting voters, and I won't be evaluating paragraphs. But I do know the job that JabbaTheGriffin and Reachzero are expected to perform. If people in this thread plan to submit paragraphs that contain the kinds of reasoning presented in this thread -- I would not be surprised AT ALL, if a lot of the anti-Cress votes are rejected completely, solely because the reasoning is not sound. So, here's some free advice from me; you can take it for what it is worth:

• Just because Jabba and Reachzero have both publically stated that they think Cresselia is very powerful -- that should not bias the outcome of this process. Now, I'm not naive enough to believe that their personal opinions won't have any effect on things. Paragraph evaluation is subjective -- so, of course their opinions will color their interpretation of things. But, paragraph evaluation is supposed to be done impartially. If anyone leading this process appears to use bias when accepting or rejecting votes -- then they won't be leading this process for long. That is not a threat to Jabba or Reachzero, I'm sure both of them will do their job well. I am pointing it out to the rest of the UU community -- if you think you can "phone it in" with your arguments, because Jabba and Reach are "on your side" -- you better think again. I suspect a lot of you are giving crappy, half-assed arguments in this thread because you think it's a foregone conclusion that Cressy is going to be banned by executive fiat of the two guys leading the process. That isn't going to happen.
  
  
• Just because Cresselia shifts the metagame -- that does not make Cresselia broken. A lot of the so-called "arguments" in this thread, are really just statements that the UU metagame is different with Cresselia in it. Yeah, OK... get over it. That is an observation, but it's not a justification for banning a pokemon.
  
  
• Stop framing your arguments in terms of how your old UU teams can't handle Cresselia. If Cressy did indeed shift the metagame (and from most accounts, it looks like it did), then you need to demonstrate that your arguments are based on the NEW metagame, not the old one. This means that you need to demonstrate that you understand the new metagame that you are playing in. If you post something like, "I'm a good UU player and Cressy beat me 6-0" (there is a lot of this going around) -- then it could be that Cressy is broken as hell, or it could be that you simply refuse to adapt to the new metagame.
  
  
• Okay, so Cressy beat you, that's fine. The real question is "How did it beat you, and what did you try to do to stop it?" If your answer is, "There was nothing I could do. No team can reasonably handle Cresselia" -- then you lose the argument. Because the pro-Cresselia camp is out there saying Houndoom, Absol, Mismagius, Spiritomb, Scyther, Froslass, Raikou, Porygonz, etc. are doing a decent job of managing Cressy. And they are giving concrete examples of how they are using these pokemon to deal with Cressy. From my vantage point, who has the more convincing argument? The people screaming "There's nothing I can do!" or the ones saying "Here's what I'm doing, and here's why it is working"?
  
  
• Don't get into pedantic explanations of the definition of a "counter" or a "check". We all know the general connotations of the terms, and we all know that both terms are gray. If anyone doesn't have a decent functional grasp of the two terms -- then they aren't worth convincing anyway. When you divert the discussion to get into "counter versus check" bullshit -- you are just demonstrating that you don't know the difference, or that your argument is so weak that you have to resort to a pedantic defense of definitions. Either way, cut it out -- and get on with some real arguments on the topic at hand.

Ok, so that's my two cents. I really do want the "Cresselia is BL" camp to step up their level of debate. I have a lot of respect for the knowledge and battle skill of some people who think Cresselia is severely broken in UU. I have a hard time believing their opinion can't be reasonably justified on the merits. I think there are some great arguments out there just waiting to be made. But, so far, I'm not seeing it.

 

[Random Pizzaman]

[*]Don't get into pedantic explanations of the definition of a "counter" or a "check". We all know the general connotations of the terms, and we all know that both terms are gray. If anyone doesn't have a decent functional grasp of the two terms -- then they aren't worth convincing anyway. When you divert the discussion to get into "counter versus check" bullshit -- you are just demonstrating that you don't know the difference, or that your argument is so weak that you have to resort to a pedantic defense of definitions. Either way, cut it out -- and get on with some real arguments on the topic at hand.
[/LIST]

QFT. Your entire post really, but this is the main thing I think needs to stop happening in this thread.

 

[FlareBlitz]

All right, let's see what we can do here.

Cresselia @ Leftovers
Bold 252 HP, 200 DEF, 56 SATK
-Psychic
-Signal Beam
-Calm Mind
-Moonlight

Some things right off the bat. Yes, Cresselia can use Ice Beam instead of Signal Beam for better neutral coverage. Yes, this Cresselia dies (eventually) to Toxic and can be put to sleep and all that jazz; you can use Substitute in place of Moonlight if you really want, which results in some Pokemon on the list below losing to it and some winning against it. All that said, this is the set I'm going to be basing my arguments of to avoid the "broken pokemon with 6 moves" situation. Anyway.

Here are all the offensive and defensive Pokemon that people are using beat Cresselia. Bolded threats are about as hard as a counter to Cresselia can get. Italicized threats are unreliable checks, due to either taking massive damage from Cresselia or being unable to outstall it, but they CAN sometimes check Cresselia if you get lucky or your opponent sucks. Bolded and Italicized means that some sets can beat it while other sets lose horribly.

Offensive
Drapion (beats this set)
Raikou (with Roar. Loses most of the time without Roar.)
Houndoom (with Nasty Plot. Mixed attacking variants without a boosting move lose. Note, however, that the Nasty Plot variant will along with Cress if it carries Life Orb and Stealth Rock is up.)
Mismagius (takes around 60% from +1 Psychic, takes around 35% from +1 Psychic with +1 Sdef. Assuming rocks are up, that would kill it. +1 Shadow Ball does not ohko +1 Sdef Cresselia.)
Absol (possibly ohko'd by +1 Signal Beam, dies to LO recoil if it attacks, needs to be at +2 to have a chance to ohko)
Scyther (+1 Psychic ko's after Stealth Rock. Needs to be at +2 to ohko)
Spiritomb (assuming 252/160 Careful/Calm, Spiritomb loses. Pursuit does less than 25% damage to Cresselia, and Dark Pulse will barely scratch it after Calm Mind. Crotomb beats it reliably though.)

Defensive
Registeel (can't do anything besides Thunderwave. Cress will get to +6 eventually and 3-4 shot it)
Chansey (If it has Toxic, it can outstall. Variants with Thunderwave lose.)
Milotic (Cress will win eventually through Psychic Sdef drops against Haze variants. Toxic variants might be able to oustall if they get lucky and avoid Sdef drops.)
Umbreon (if Umbreon has Taunt and some speed, it can win. Variants without Taunt at 2hko'd by Cress at +4. Umbreon needs to be at +3 for Payback to 2hko Cress.)
Steelix(Can phaze, but cannot hurt Cress. Lacks recovery, so Cress will beat it eventually. Cannot beat Cress one-on-one.)

Those are the most relevant checks to Cresselia in this metagame. I count 3 solid offensive checks (Roarkou, Crotomb, Drapion). Any of the pokemon mentioned in the Defensive checks area can beat this Cress with Toxic, but only Chansey commonly runs it. Incidentally, nothing in the Defensive checks section can beat Cress if it forgoes Moonlight for Substitute except Taunt Umbreon, but without recovery Cress loses to CM Raikou, and can generally be worn down by repeated attacks and switch ins. However, with Wish support, Substitute is the way to go on the last slot.

Anyway, now that we've established Cress' checks, let's see how much effort it takes to remove them. Something is immediately apparent if you look at the Pokemon mentioned. Both of the solid offensive checks and one of the solid defensive checks are immediately removable by Dugtrio. Putting Dugtrio on a team doesn't really require much effort. The variant of Spiritomb that can beat Cresselia also loses to CB Dugtrio, who 3hkos (sometimes 2hkos) while Spiritomb cannot 2hko back with boosted Dark Pulse. Umbreon is much more difficult to remove, however.

To recap, we have a small number of checks to start with, most of which can be removed using exactly one other Pokemon. If those Pokemon are removed, very little can stop Cresselia from setting up multiple Calm Minds and sweeping your team. So, we have a Pokemon that can sweep through a significant portion of the metagame, who requires just one partner for the majority of its support, and who only has a couple of reliable checks anyway. That screams "Broken" to me. Does Cress have disadvantages and Pokemon that can reliably stop it? Of course. So did Yanmega, but that didn't stop it from getting a unanimous boot to BL. So did Honchkrow, but that didn't stop it from terrorizing the tier and getting kicked after HGSS. While Cresselia does not hit as hard as those, it doesn't get hit very hard either, meaning over time it's easily as dangerous.

 

[ToF]

@ FlareBlitz

Nope, sorry, you're argument at the end is partially incorrect. Until you can get Salamence to be banned because of Magnezone, I'm not buying this bullshit that Dugtrio will remove all of Cresselia's counters. Nope, doesn't happen as your theorymon indicates, and yeah, like Dugtrio's usage is that high anyway. If it does become a problem, I will Shed Shell everything in the same manner I did when Duggy was moved down because I ADAPT TO THE FUCKING METAGAME.

Also, how does Registeel not win? Who says I can't Curse up and actually hit Cresselia hard? These one sided arguments are what get me annoyed, and Doug seemed to notice as well. There are plenty of things that can beat Cresselia, just get out of your damn bubbles and maybe you'll find some new, innovative stuff.

Edit: Once again, you say Mismagius is not a counter, when I say it is. Just run the bulky ghost version with Taunt, problem solved. Again, same point I said above applies. Try using something new and maybe you'll realize that Cresselia is just as annoying to remove from the game as say Registeel or Milotic is (incidentally, Cresselia is as much of a counter to Blaziken as Milotic is...both take virtually the same amount of damage from Blaziken's attacks, so lets ban Milotic as well...sarcasm).

Edit 2: Milotic is losing to Cress if it has HAZE??? What the fuck are you guys on lol...the only way Milotic loses to that Cresselia is if it has Toxic. Haze removes those Sp.Def drops too you know...

 

[Bluewind]

Just nitpicking a small flaw; on the argument regarding Milotic, Haze eliminates SpDef drops too, so it can beat it (or at least PP stall it) reliably. I like how you listed those things too, gives me something to base my essay on. There are more counters to list though: Skuntank, which sounds like a great counter when you consider Taunt + Pursuit and Boom (which i first ran into reading franky's RMT), some random status (even though it sounds like a big oddball, running Toxic on Azumarill is really paying of this round) and such.

On another note, I do have the feeling when monthly satus come out we'll have something better to base our essays on, as it'll show us what is the most common set and what is just nigh on unexistant, thus allowing some pokés to enter the counter list based on the set usage, as it would be something like "Ok, Gliscor is still a Lucario counter even though it can run Sub HP Ice" (no I'm not talking about Absol particularly, thus I ask that none quote me for this sentence and say it's only a check).

 

[Thund91]

If Dugtrio is able to open up holes in teams for Cress(it can also open up holes for other pokemon as well, with Registeel gone a Scyther can also sweep, etc.), then shouldn't Dugtrio be banned under the support characteristic??? Every pokemon can sweep when it's counters are gone.

And i've already discussed Dugtrio in a post before. It's only a decent partner with Cress at best.

And Jamasha, Torterra has always been neglected and underrated, i'm sure it's effectiveness didn't increase just cause Cress came into the tier. =)

 

[JabbaTheGriffin]

Just want to follow up to Doug's post and clarify that I actually have no position on Cresselia's power in UU. I am just in support of a system that can potentially remove "obvious" BL Pokemon. This does not mean that I believe Cresselia fits that bill, I've wanted the system in place since the very beginning but I was ignored because supposedly at the time everyone believed every pokemon deserved a full test regardless of how obviously overpowering it was. Anyway I'm probably just being overly pedantic but I just wanted to point that out.

 

[itsbigfoot]

Cresselia is BL under the defensive characteristic of an Uber, the fact that it gets near the offensive characteristic and can fill in support roles is just icing on the cake.

Defensive Characteristic
A Pokémon is uber if, in common battle conditions, it is able to wall and stall out a significant portion of the metagame.

UU list

Absol
Aggron
Alakazam
Altaria
Ambipom
Arcanine*
Azumarill*
Blastoise
Blaziken
Chansey
Claydol
Clefable*
Cloyster
Cresselia
Donphan
Drapion
Drifblim
Dugtrio
Feraligatr
Froslass
Hariyama
Hitmonlee
Hitmontop
Houndoom
Kabutops
Lanturn
Leafeon*
Ludicolo
Mesprit
Milotic
Mismagius*
Moltres
Nidoking
Nidoqueen
Omastar*
Poliwrath
Porygon-Z
Qwilfish
Raikou
Regirock*
Registeel
Rhyperior
Rotom*
Sceptile
Scyther
Slowbro
Spiritomb*
Steelix
Swellow
Tangrowth
Torterra*
Toxicroak
Umbreon
Uxie
Venusaur
Weezing

walled or beaten pokemon are bolded (sometimes it doesn't matter if you can hit it, as it outspeeds and ohkos you back).

asterisks (*) are pokemon I'm not entirely sure on, as it might be possible for them to run a set that breaks cressy, but i haven't seen it/played the matchup out yet, as they're usually out at different points in the game, or they're clefable and have 30 different options

also, unbolded pokemon all have at least one set that cressy can't stop, some have other sets that lose to cressy that may even be more popular (for instance, DD altaria can break cressy, but defensive variants do much worse, and while steelix running a curse set wins, without the stat boost/speed drop gyro ball does very little).

Bolded pokemon may have annoying options (i.e. encore/toxic/trick) but can't really damage cressy especially one using Psycho Shift

so lets organize the lists

Cressy walls: Alakazam, Ambipom, Blastoise, Blaziken, Chansey, Claydol, Cloyster, Donphan, Drifblim, Dugtrio, Feraligatr, Froslass, Hariyama, Hitmonlee, Hitmontop, Lanturn, Ludicolo, Mesprit, Milotic, Moltres, Nidoqueen, Poliwrath, Qwilfish, Sceptile, Slowbro, Tangrowth, Toxicroak, Uxie, Venusaur, Weezing.

Unsure: Arcanine, Azumarril, Clefable, Leafeon, Mismagius, Omastar, Regirock, Rotom, Spiritomb, Torterra

Doesn't wall: Absol, Aggron, Drapion, Houndoom, Kabutops, Nidoking, Porygon-Z, Raikou, Registeel, Rhyperior, Scyther, Swellow, Steelix. Umbreon

a few notes, curse steelix wins, not the standard sets. Nidoking has to hit it with megahorn on the switch or else he dies to psychic before he does anything.

so anywhere from 56% to 74% of the metagame is walled by Cressy. right now i'm unsure on the asterisks, and would like everyone's opinion on those, but i think it'll pan out somewhere in the middle, meaning that only 14-20 pokemon out of 54 can hurt its defensive sets.

I'm assuming a set of:

Cresselia @ Leftovers
Ability: levitate
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
- Psychic
- Signal Beam / Psycho Shift
- Moonlight
- Calm Mind / Psycho Shift

and yes, we know it won't have all those moves at all times, but they are all possible variables of a stall cressy. technically you could include hp ground and knock out a few more pokes, but that's more of an offensive cress set.

Remember, this isn't matchups, as some of these pokemon that can hit it still lose the majority of the time to most cress sets (cough nidoking cough), these are just pokemon that can hit cress hard enough to not be walled with one of their practical sets (sub/cm/encore/signal beam zam could beat it at + 6 + 6 but doesn't do anything outside of beating cress).

 

[Lemmiwinks MkII]

That list above is either understating or wildly overstating the case depending on whether you assume multiple different sets or just one particular set. For example, Moltres and Alakazam can only really be walled with a very special defensive spread, whilst many more require decent physical defensive investment, or a particular screen in either case. Cress can theoretically wall up to ~85% of the metagame if taking into account all possible sets, but the basis for arguing from that perspective is shaky at best. With the set above, I'd say that anything over 60% is very optimistic IMO.

There's also several Pokemon that can boost up with Calm Mind / whatever and beat Cress if not running a similarly boosting set. And what's with all the Dark / Ghost types in the "beats" or "unsure" section? It stands to reason that Cress cannot reliably wall these Pokes.

 

[Skytt]

Chansey

Froslass

Milotic

Moltres

Chansey: Has access to Toxic and Calm Mind / Psych Up, can stall Cress to death.

Froslass: It has access to Destiny Bond, Taunt, STAB Shadow Ball, Pain Split and Toxic, but its still not treated as a counter? Only Spiritomb has a better selection but Froslass outspeeds all Cresselia but TrickScarf.

Milotic: It has Haze / Toxic + Recover to stall Cress out.

Moltres: Can stall twice as fast with Pressure and has Toxic, Substitute (Stops T-Wave) and Roost. 252+ Moltres does 79% damage on average in Sunny Day to 252 HP / 0 SpD Cresselia with Fire Blast, which means Fire Blast will 2HKO Cresselia (Even if Cresselia used CM and the Sun ran out of time after the first FB).

383 Atk vs 296 Def & 444 HP (120 Base Power): 325 - 384 (73.20% - 86.49%) - Fire Blast in Sun
383 Atk vs 444 Def & 444 HP (120 Base Power): 144 - 171 (32.43% - 38.51%) - Fire Blast not in Sun against 1+ Cresselia

 

[M BLADE]

Wait a minute: how does Cresselia walls Drifblim? I'm curious now...
Correct me if i'm wrong, but Drifblim can actually use Cresselia to set up CM. Even worse, it can ChestoRest Unburden to boost it's speed to almost unreachable levels, meaning Drifblim is able not only to take Cresselia out, but to sweep a entire team without many worries of being revenge killed.

Mismagius can set up too, but normally doesn't carry a recovery move, and can't get the speed boost like Drifblim.
And Spiritomb completely walks over Cresselia. Well, Spiritomb walks over any psychic poke anyway...


I still doesn't get any problems with Cresselia. Over the last two weeks, all Cresselias with no exception were easily handled by me.
But i recognize that Cresselia is too much for UU. I don't need a poke beating me down to recognize that said poke is broken.

 

[Thund91]

I'm having a hard time understanding how Cress can wall Alakazam, Moltres, and Drifblim.

Not only that but you're saying how Cress manages to wall Chansey, Blastoise, Weezing, Cloyster, etc... when a Restalk Milotic can do the exact same thing.

 

[TEA_DEMON]

for instance, DD altaria can break cressy

Not true. In the amount of time it takes Altaria to DD up enough to KO Cress, Cress can just CM alongside it and, I'd assume, kill it first. I know from experience that +6 Outrage from Altaria with no attack investment does only ~50%, which gets outstalled. Bear in mind there's no calcs here, but I would not be surprised if Altaria couldn't beat Cress.

 

[Heysup]

That list is another example of a one-sided argument. You are not looking at the solid evidence (calculations, scenarios, certain sets, etc).

Absol
Aggron
Alakazam - wrong. Alakazam uses Encore and Taunt. It is actually a counter.
Altaria
Ambipom - Taunt + U-turn actually make Ambipom a great check for Cresselia. It won't win 1v1, but it will definitely stop it.
Arcanine* - Beats CM with Toxic.
Azumarill* - same as above.
Blastoise - same as above.
Blaziken - SD variants can severely damage it (+2 Flare Blitz does 75.2% - 88.7%)
Chansey - Cresselia loses horribly to Chansey.....
Claydol - you found one!
Clefable* - Loses to Clefable as well, as it will definitely carry Encore.
Cloyster - well it will for sure just explode, but whatever.
Cresselia - Look a great Cress check!
Donphan - Here is two!
Drapion
Drifblim - Uh....Calm Mind with STAB Ghost vs Calm Mind with Psychic.....nope.
Dugtrio - Number 3.
Feraligatr - Swords Dance variants have no trouble. SD Waterfall does: 45.9% - 54.3% and Psychic does: 28.8% - 34%. Keep in mind, this means it can SD at least twice before it attacks.
Froslass - Taunt + Pain Split makes it an awesome check. Not to mention it sets up Spikes on Cress.
Hariyama - 4
Hitmonlee -5
Hitmontop -6
Houndoom
Kabutops
Lanturn - 6
Leafeon*
Ludicolo - Leech Seed variants will outstall, but I'll give you it. 7.
Mesprit - 8.
Milotic - No? we just went over this. Milotic easily beats Cress with Haze, Toxic, etc.
Mismagius*
Moltres - Moltres 2HKOes CM Cress: 48.9% - 57.7%.
Nidoking
Nidoqueen - 9
Omastar*
Poliwrath - 10
Porygon-Z
Qwilfish - It will just explode or Taunt.
Raikou
Regirock*
Registeel
Rhyperior
Rotom*
Sceptile - No, Leech Seed variants will stall it to hell and back.
Scyther
Slowbro - Toxic
Spiritomb*
Steelix
Swellow
Tangrowth - Well...Sleep Powder I guess. I'll give you this one since its slow. 11.
Torterra*
Toxicroak - 12
Umbreon
Uxie - 13
Venusaur - Sleep????
Weezing - 14

That's 14. 14 Compared to Raikou who has actually 22-23 Pokemon it can set up on in the top 50.

EDIT:

Not true. In the amount of time it takes Altaria to DD up enough to KO Cress, Cress can just CM alongside it and, I'd assume, kill it first. I know from experience that +6 Outrage from Altaria with no attack investment does only ~50%, which gets outstalled. Bear in mind there's no calcs here, but I would not be surprised if Altaria couldn't beat Cress.

Don't assume.

For example, even the offensive spread beats Cresselia:

+2 Outrage vs Cresselia: 52.9% - 62.4% (2HKOes at this point)
+6 Outrage vs Cresselia: 106.1% - 125% (100% OHKOes at this point, but comes close at +5 (93.2% - 109.7%))

+2 Psychic vs Altaria: 47.6% - 56.3% (2HKOes at this point, but Altaria is faster)
+5 (since altaria would reach +6 before Cresselia would need to attack at +5 to get a hit off) Psychic vs Altaria: 82.8% - 98.1%

Of course Ice Beam changes this, but we are clearly talking about the Psychic / Signal Beam set as being broken.

 

[M BLADE]

No, Blaziken can't do much to Cresselia.
Sure, it can do a good amount of damage with a SD Flare Blitz, but you're going to lose Blaziken if you try that, and nothing stops Cresselia from coming later to Moonlight against something slower.

Cresselia can survive Cloyster Explosion. The standard set does 44.1% - 52%. The most offensive one(counting Life Orb) does 73.2% - 86.3%. Cresselia still survives even with SR damage.

Qwilfish does even less because it has less atk than Cloyster and it's weak to Psychic and it has crap defenses(no matter how much you try to make it bulky). Unless Qwilfish uses SD Explosion.

Leech Seed Sceptile... well, Cresselia can just keep hitting Sceptile Subs and recovering it's health until Substitute is out of PP. It's better to switch out, though.

Poliwrath can do something funny like having some speed evs and Encore Cresselia unless Cresselia uses Psychic. Though it's not a good thing to do.


I agree about the others, especially Feraligatr(who can use SD and get the Torrent boost to OHKO Cresselia)

 

[LonelyNess]

Cress can theoretically wall up to ~85% of the metagame if taking into account all possible sets, but the basis for arguing from that perspective is shaky at best.

I think that this is an underutilized argument against Cresselia being UU, actually.

The fact that you can tailor make your Cresselia to wall whatever your Stall team needs it to wall is a very important thing. With one Pokemon you can cover either every physical threat with Reflect / Twave save for Absol and Drapion... cover nearly every special threat save for Froslass, Mismagius... or you can just slap 252 HP / 252 Def and use a Calm Mind set and cover a vast majority of the Pokemon anyway.

Just because it can't cover everything with ONE set, doesn't take away the fact that it can cover everything with SOME set... It is the most versitile defensive Pokemon I can think of, because nothing beats every set that it can run, which is unprecidented in terms of UU walls.

 

[Heysup]

I think that this is an underutilized argument against Cresselia being UU, actually.

The fact that you can tailor make your Cresselia to wall whatever your Stall team needs it to wall is a very important thing. With one Pokemon you can cover either every physical threat with Reflect / Twave save for Absol and Drapion... cover nearly every special threat save for Froslass, Mismagius... or you can just slap 252 HP / 252 Def and use a Calm Mind set and cover a vast majority of the Pokemon anyway.

Cresselia doesn't actually "Beat" Drapion or Absol with those sets if it is not carrying something like high SpA, Calm Mind, and a super effective move (which I doubt it will be), or simply insane parahax. The trouble with the Reflect / Thunder Wave set is that it doesn't do much more than..well..Reflect and Thunder Wave. It is still a great set though, don't get me wrong. The reason it isn't being used or discussed is that the Calm Mind set is much closer to being broken than that set is.

Speaking of the Calm Mind set, it doesn't come close to covering the "majority" of Pokemon (look at my previous post) with the Standard Calm Mind set. It is 14 Pokemon of the 56 that were posted in this list (I guess it is the top 50 + 6 Pokemon that are more common now). Compare this to Raikou who covers (or covered) approximately 22 or 23 of the top 50 Pokemon. It seems very underwhelming to me, and I'll admit that it doesn't do Cresselia justice, because it is definitely not "underwhelming".

Just because it can't cover everything with ONE set, doesn't take away the fact that it can cover everything with SOME set... It is the most versitile defensive Pokemon I can think of, because nothing beats every set that it can run, which is unprecidented in terms of UU walls.

While that may be (almost) true, most of the sets are in fact not run because they don't do enough to deal with the offensive Pokemon in UU. The Special Defensive sets risk being worn down and beaten by threats like Swellow, while the physically defensive sets are beaten by threats like Moltres. It cannot do this all at the same time. There are many many other Pokemon that this argument applies to as well, but I don't want to get into that.

The most effective set, as in the set the covers the most Pokemon is easily the Calm Mind / Signal Beam set, and it doesn't beat "enough" Pokemon to be broken imo, especially since Raikou was deemed UU. If Raikou was BL, then we may have had a case.