The First Smogon Council - Salamence

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Hi, guys -- I don't think any of you are going to pay attention to me, since you haven't paid attention to other posters, but this is completely counterproductive. None of you are going to convince anyone with hackneyed, worn-out arguments that have been thrown around ad nauseam since anyone ever conceived the idea of Salamence being broken in DPPt. The best way for people to make their minds up is to play. Why don't you guys try discussing your play experiences instead of playing the theorymon game? This is Pokémon, not theory ping-pong.

In my experience, both metagames are alright. Standard is enjoyable in its own fast-paced right, but suspect is significantly different. The Dragon-Steel system has been upturned for a UU-like Water-Grass-Fire one. I'm liking the diversity and more balanced feel in suspect, but I don't think standard is exactly unplayable. I'm finding Salamence overpowered regardless. Nothing can save the outcome of a battle or rip apart teams quite like it. Comparisons to Pokémon like Dragonite are useless, imo, since Salamence holds its own vs all playstyles much better than Dragonite could ever hope. Salamence is fairly unique in its amalgamation of all the threatening characteristics of a number of sweepers, and I think the sheer versatility provided by two fairly different sets is ridiculous. There are a number of other diverse Pokémon, but most of their sets don't have the pure destructive impact Salamence's sets both have. Sure, you can predict right, but you have to with Salamence. Nothing is quite as perilous as the initial switch into Salamence. While the player's usage undoubtedly does provide information as to what Salamence is carrying, there's not much certainty at all.
 
@Fiveoclock, the reasoning behind that is obviously not good, bad players is definitely not a viable argument, besides who switches Salamence into Gengar? Thats not exactly good prediction by Gengar at all, thats what he should be doing if he is a substitute set, whoever sent in Salamence is just a terrible player..
 
@Fiveoclock, the reasoning behind that is obviously not good, bad players is definitely not a viable argument, besides who switches Salamence into Gengar? Thats not exactly good prediction by Gengar at all, thats what he should be doing if he is a substitute set, whoever sent in Salamence is just a terrible player..
Yes, I know, but I remember a while ago that people said that kind of stuff. I'm not saying that's why Mence shouldn't be Uber, I'm just finding flaws in old arguments.
 

Mario With Lasers

Self-proclaimed NERFED king
is a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a CAP Contributor Alumnus
Hi, guys -- I don't think any of you are going to pay attention to me, since you haven't paid attention to other posters, but this is completely counterproductive. None of you are going to convince anyone with hackneyed, worn-out arguments that have been thrown around ad nauseam since anyone ever conceived the idea of Salamence being broken in DPPt. The best way for people to make their minds up is to play. Why don't you guys try discussing your play experiences instead of playing the theorymon game? This is Pokémon, not theory ping-pong.

In my experience, both metagames are alright. Standard is enjoyable in its own fast-paced right, but suspect is significantly different. The Dragon-Steel system has been upturned for a UU-like Water-Grass-Fire one. I'm liking the diversity and more balanced feel in suspect, but I don't think standard is exactly unplayable. I'm finding Salamence overpowered regardless. Nothing can save the outcome of a battle or rip apart teams quite like it. Comparisons to Pokémon like Dragonite are useless, imo, since Salamence holds its own vs all playstyles much better than Dragonite could ever hope. Salamence is fairly unique in its amalgamation of all the threatening characteristics of a number of sweepers, and I think the sheer versatility provided by two fairly different sets is ridiculous. There are a number of other diverse Pokémon, but most of their sets don't have the pure destructive impact Salamence's sets both have. Sure, you can predict right, but you have to with Salamence. Nothing is quite as perilous as the initial switch into Salamence. While the player's usage undoubtedly does provide information as to what Salamence is carrying, there's not much certainty at all.
You have a rainbow unigirl avatar, it's physically impossible to not notice your post.


Now, on the ladder experience. Is is just me, or is the Standard ladder infested with noobs? I tried to use my years-old Shoddy account (which means it had a shitty rating and would probably not raise by much every battle), and the ladder is much much worse than before. UU teams, Charizard leads, Cresselia/Donphan/Electivire/Weavile teams, Eeveelution+BP chain teams, Rock Tomb Sceptile, Bastiodon, random shit thrown together with Mence (and failing) etc etc. At first I thought it merely was my incredibly shitty rating this time, but my initial rating on Suspect was worse and I got much, much better battles (even though the rating didn't raise by much any time).

It was so bad I used to forfeit sometimes only because I felt the battle was a waste of time.
 
I know im new to this forum, but ive been on serebii for a few years, and i do a lot of battling. i prefere double battles, and yes, i see salamence all the time. on a note to that, i see electivire and dragonite just as much, if not more. My salamence is a Physical attacker, my dragonite is as well. however, both are evd for max attack, and if im not mistaken the punches hurt more than the fangs (i.e. thunder, fire, ice punch/fang). Having salamence as a suspect for ubers is the start to the un-doing of the game. Garchomp i can understand, thus the evasion but salamence i couldnt agree less. so what its tough, beat it. whats next, a kingdra because of swift swim? why not, latias got marked, and that was my anti-kingdra. Then dragonite, tyranitar, i mean come on. wheres the end to this? you let salamence go, and you forefit the right to use what you want..its already gone too far. soon theres gonna be Non-Legendary ubers. i mean come on... metagross is pretty powerful no matter how you wanna use him too. so thats next? enough is enough
 

Ice-eyes

Simper Fi
I know im new to this forum, but ive been on serebii for a few years, and i do a lot of battling. i prefere double battles, and yes, i see salamence all the time. on a note to that, i see electivire and dragonite just as much, if not more. My salamence is a Physical attacker, my dragonite is as well. however, both are evd for max attack, and if im not mistaken the punches hurt more than the fangs (i.e. thunder, fire, ice punch/fang). Having salamence as a suspect for ubers is the start to the un-doing of the game. Garchomp i can understand, thus the evasion but salamence i couldnt agree less. so what its tough, beat it. whats next, a kingdra because of swift swim? why not, latias got marked, and that was my anti-kingdra. Then dragonite, tyranitar, i mean come on. wheres the end to this? you let salamence go, and you forefit the right to use what you want..its already gone too far. soon theres gonna be Non-Legendary ubers. i mean come on... metagross is pretty powerful no matter how you wanna use him too. so thats next? enough is enough
This argument has been 1) made and 2) refuted repeatedly throughout this thread. At least skim through the previous posts - people are starting to sound like broken records.
 
and you wonder why? i know im not the first one, or the last one to say it. everyone can make the same points. it holds true every time. I probly could make some more sophisticated arguements, but its the bottom line. i cant believe salamence is even on the fence.
 
and you wonder why? i know im not the first one, or the last one to say it. everyone can make the same points. it holds true every time. I probly could make some more sophisticated arguements, but its the bottom line. i cant believe salamence is even on the fence.
They are testing whether it is too strong for OU or not. They will test Tyranitar, Dragonite, Metagross, Breloom, Scizor, etc. when they get around to it. The whole point is, through playing a metagame without the pokemon, we can get a better picture as to that pokemon's characteristics and whether they match up to those of an uber.

Wobbuffet is a non-legendary uber, and that was agreed upon by almost all of the competitive battlers at the time. If Dragonite, even Heracross are determined to match the uber characteristics by a majority, they deserve to be out.

"I don't want it to go to ubers!" is not a valid argument to save it.

If you play the suspect ladder, the whole metagame is different. Lots of pokemon are packing HP Fire instead of Ice just because Dragonite can't be OHKO'd for sure anymore (because it is Salamence's "replacement"), so Scizor is taking a royal beating. Things like Shaymin are going to join OU, people on the whole are playing with more diversely-typed teams. I rather like the changes, but agree that Salamence being in the metagame doesn't change it as much as I thought it would.
 
They are testing whether it is too strong for OU or not. They will test Tyranitar, Dragonite, Metagross, Breloom, Scizor, etc. when they get around to it. The whole point is, through playing a metagame without the pokemon, we can get a better picture as to that pokemon's characteristics and whether they match up to those of an uber.
just a question for you, why would they decide to test the pokemon you listed? most of those have hard counters, some a little bit more seldom seen like hariyama for tyranitar, but others seen more often like heatran and magnezone for scizor. not that this matters, and we should be talking about experience in suspect anyways.
 
Dude, your experiences in doubles has nothing to do with this singles-oriented tier. In doubles, I can definitely see Ubers being significantly smaller, but in singles it's a different story because you can never have two Pokémon gang up on one. The slippery slope argument is a logical fallacy and you should really stop insulting the Smogon community with it.

Have you people realized that maybe Salamence being considered for Uber comes from experienced battlers? Salamence on the ladder played by 1200 CRE Joe Average is not going to be the same as Salamence in tournament or Salamence on the ladder played by Mod Alt #204. I've almost beaten decent Uber teams with a UU team before. That doesn't mean anything.
 

SJCrew

Believer, going on a journey...
is a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Battle Simulator Moderator Alumnus
I don't know where people are getting this "everything is getting banned" crap from; anyone who's played this game or has been involved in the testing process knows this shit takes forever and requires consensus from experienced players, who are more qualified to speak on how the metagame fares with the inclusion of said Pokemon than some dude at the bottom of the ladder who uses/fights against UU teams and terrible gimmicks.

The fact that you'd even consider Tyranitar and Scizor to be on the same level as Salamence just proves that you really haven't been playing this game that much and can't really say whether or not he's good enough to jump a tier.
 
I don't know where people are getting this "everything is getting banned" crap from; anyone who's played this game or has been involved in the testing process knows this shit takes forever and requires consensus from experienced players, who are more qualified to speak on how the metagame fares with the inclusion of said Pokemon than some dude at the bottom of the ladder who uses/fights against UU teams and terrible gimmicks.

The fact that you'd even consider Tyranitar and Scizor to be on the same level as Salamence just proves that you really haven't been playing this game that much and can't really say whether or not he's good enough to jump a tier.
I thought you were on the banning bandwagon like I was.

The whole point of the council is to determine whether Salamence is uber or not. When we are done with Salamence, we move on to the next pokemon. I don't know which one is next, but we recently did Manaphy and Latias, Latios was before that. What's next? We can test Wobbuffet again, or Mewtwo, or Mew, or we can go to the next threat in OU. Are you saying that we just stop at some arbitrary point because we give up trying to balance the metagame?

If banning pokemon isn't your game, then play enough to get ranked so you can participate in the council and give good reasoning why Salamence shouldn't be banned based on your experience, and cast your vote.

I'm not saying Breloom should be ubers, but I would hope that if every other threat stronger than it was already tested, that we would go ahead and test it next. Same for every other pokemon.

The process has been greatly simplified for this round, the whole process is poised to last only a month. We could ban ~12 pokemon a year at that clip, and I don't see why we shouldn't if they meet the uber characteristics in the OU metagame.
 
But what if, when we're done with Salamence, there is no "next suspect" and we actually have a balanced metagame? What you're advocating seems to be testing for the sake of testing.

EDIT:
But the thing is, without Salamence, there will be new threats because many things can now run more rampantly without Salamence.
A metagame can have lots of threats running rampant and still be balanced. In fact, if there were no threats, then there wouldn't even be a metagame.
 
But the thing is, without Salamence, there will be new threats because many things can now run more rampantly without Salamence.
 
The fact that you'd even consider Tyranitar and Scizor to be on the same level as Salamence just proves that you really haven't been playing this game that much and can't really say whether or not he's good enough to jump a tier.
If that was ever suggested it would probably be for centralization/strategy limiting reasons; making Psychics/frail Pokemon/Reversal suck. Of course, for the most part they already sucked (Stealth Rock makes Articuno and Butterfree bad!), so it's probably not going to happen... but that argument would at least be more valid than being hard to counter, which they aren't. BP Scizor basically just walked in and made the Psychics run away and the whole metagame get bulkier. Could that be argued to be bannable? Maybe, but it probably won't.

@ Salamence in Doubles: Garchomp isn't banned there either last I heard. It's a totally different world...

- - -

It'd be great if there was a way we could read logs of all the battles with 1550+ CRE guys, so people like me could have something constructive to say about what the pros can do with Mence. It's probably true that a lot of the people arguing earlier haven't seen its true potential and what kind of numerical and mental impact its presence can have, myself included.

I'd say that the thing about Salamence that has made it suspect is that it's one of those Pokemon that you mark in yellow or red on your threat lists no matter what your team is, because you're always weak to it or at least have to be really careful around it. Not much else can say that, if anything at all; It's definitely the best, all that can really be argued about here (and you're done arguing anyway) is whether it's too good or not, and whether it makes the metagame better/worse/different. Speaking of which...

I wish the Standard and Suspect ladders had the same people on them though, so you could really tell the difference between what effect Salamence has, what effect Latias no longer has, and what effect the difference in playstyle and skill between iShadowLordAverageJoe007 and the active tiering people have. When you think about it, Pokemon like Shaymin, Electivire, Dusknoir, etc wouldn't have such dramatic usage changes if there wasn't a totally different crowd and mentality on Suspect (especially the way everyone goes in expecting Infernape/Starmie/etc now, making them centralize somewhat). It's hard to tell if Salamence really has that much of an impact on the metagame all on its own, or if it's the people playing that are responsible, or if people playing standard are too lazy to change their teams for the Latias ban, or some combination of the above.

Salamence might not be what was holding back Stall teams (they usually get pretty high on ladder actually...), Shaymin, Heatran, and Infernape or making us use Steels in the first place. Hell, Suspect still has a Steel-type that can revenge kill Dragons as the by-far #1 Pokemon just like Standard does.

- - -

I know it's inferior and all, but I'm going to laugh if we ban Salamence and then Dragonite goes into the top 10 and the metagame stays structured pretty much the same way with only some changes in Speed EVs and Scarf usage. Oh well, hopefully that isn't the case though.

I'm not saying that it will happen. I really didn't try to say much of anything opinionated, please don't attack me for some reason. Yes, I know I should go ladder sometime.

EDIT: Yes, Removing Salamence may lead to a rise in other threats, but it's doubtful they're ever be as hard to counter as Mence itself is/was.
 
There are many threats even with Salamence in the metagame. You might prepare for Salamence the most, but you do the same kind of preperation for a whole list of Pokemon. Salamence might be THE strongest, but you're not overlooking Gyarados or Scizor or Tyranitar anytime soon.

I really prefer Standard to Suspect. Suspect is kind of.. I don't know. Less of a thrill? Most of it's just stallish offense, with little to no consequences if you play like an idiot the whole game. I've encountered two HO teams, with the rest being either heavy stall Skarm/Bliss/Forretress/Rotom, or semi-stall with a DD Gyara / Tyranitar thrown in. I've seen so many Heatran. Soo many. I don't know the matches you guys are getting, but it's not any more diverse to me. In fact, it seems less diverse. With Salamence gone, I've also seen UU Pokemon trying to be used. I'm all for it, but if you're gonna use Rhydon in OU, there's something wrong with you. I've seen every Pokemon that lived in Standard. + Shaymin.

Standard actually makes you use your noggin. Instead of forcing you to break stall every 4 matches.
 
I know im new to this forum, but ive ...

... so thats next? enough is enough
It seems like most of the pro-OU people are turning into the Pokemon Tea Party. The same unfounded, unrealistic, un-anything arguments thrown around like so many rotten tomatoes...

It gets irritating. Irritating not only because those with valid points to make are being overshadowed by the noob-geist, but that the ignorant ones simply don't know the issue, and lack the incentive to find out what it is.

FACT: The "slippery slope" argument (that if/when Salamence is banished to Ubers, the next top threat in OU will be considered suspect, and then the next, and then next, until there is no more OU) is complete bogus. Not only does it make absolutely no sense, but people are just bringing it up along with the feeble idea that "well, if sally was so broken before, why did it stay in OU for so long without being tested?" without simply thinking about it for a minute or two. Salamence has long been in the Suspect queue, but other Pokemon took higher priority in being tested (such as Garchomp, Shaymin-S, and Latias). Now that those Pokemon are finished with testing after so long, Salamence is now under the scrutiny it merits; thanks to the newly-formed Smogon Council, it's likely that this Suspect test (and following ones) will be completed far more quickly, ensuring no massive delay happens again.

Yes, perhaps if Salamence is banned, other Pokemon will become more threatening. That doesn't mean they'll be considered Suspect, as most of the Pokemon that are rising to dominance or already are (Infernape, Scizor, Tyranitar, etc.) are either checked/countered by a good portion of the Standard metagame, or became popular largely because of Salamence itself. Not every RoTom, MiloDick, and HarryYama will suddenly overwhelm Standard to the point where everything is Suspect.

FACT: The people who whine about how "oh but if sally is banned to ubers, he'll be terrible there, so he should stay OU" are morons. This bears repeating, despite the good works of people like SJCrew hammering it into said moron's heads via their signatures: A Pokemon is Uber NOT because of how well it does in the Uber tier, but by how well it does in the OU tier. Ubers is a BANLIST, and any Pokemon deemed Uber for any reason is automatically sent there, no matter how well they contend with the other Pokemon there. Ubers isn't meant to be balanced; it's meant to be a purgatory for those too powerful in Standard play. If Salamence is banned to Ubers, he may very will be a bucket of suck there, but that's not the point in banning a Pokemon.

FACT: "sally has counters, tho! weavile, mamoswine, and other powerful ice attackers can counter him! they can all-- " No. They are not counters, but checks. A counter is defined as something that can switch into ANY of the attacks the opposing Pokemon uses, and either force a switch to remove the threat, or dispatch it altogether with a OHKO or 2HKO, all while taking minimal damage. Meanwhile, a check is meant to force a Pokemon out after a revenge kill; the difference between the two is that checks are NOT able to switch in as they please, as they are either too frail or are weak to a common attack the foe carries.

Yes, Weavile and Mamoswine can dispatch Salamence with ease due to Ice Shard STAB, but it's damn near impossible for them to switch in on any move Salamence uses except for Dragon Dance and maybe Roost; even if they defy all odds and manage to pull off that achievement (more likely, they just switched in after a KO from Salamence), what's stopping Mr. Mence from simply switching out itself? Now you have Weavile/Mamoswine up against a potent threat that they can't handle (i.e., most anything in OU). Not a good position for the Ice-types.


I know all of these points have been discussed before, but I thought it might merit repeating if they were all consolidated into one post. If it doesn't seem necessary, just delete it.
 
It's definitely the best, all that can really be argued about here (and you're done arguing anyway) is whether it's too good or not, and whether it makes the metagame better/worse/different. Speaking of which...
I've found that it just makes it... different. Personally, I don't find Suspect any better or worse than Standard, and it's kind of hard to compare them in a "which is better" kind of way given just how much varies between them. I think if anyone wants to really say that Standard is "worse", it's largely going to be the result of a personal preference against the hyper-offensive, Dragon/Steel core that Salamence encourages, and towards the more Grass/Water/Fire defensive slant that flourishes without him.

One thing I will say: Salamence is a good counter-measure to six slot syndrome. No team can really hope to be 100% prepared for every possible threat/set in the metagame, a fact that is amplified on Suspect where if an opponent is carrying a particular defensive core, you either need exactly the right stuff to beat it - or failing that, consistently great prediction - or else they're just going to stall you out. Salamence's greatest advantage, I've found, is that when played well he can be used to prevent the opponent from getting into this advantageous situation; He can break apart their core, or at least injure them badly enough that you don't need exactly the right things to beat them any more. Sometimes, Pokemon matches between equally skilled players can be decided just on the back of which six Pokemon you each bring, but with Salamence, even a player who finds himself with an overall team disadvantage can overcome those odds if they play him well enough. He's the great equalizer, really, and I tend to prefer that to the way Suspect works.
 
It seems like most of the pro-OU people are turning into the Pokemon Tea Party. The same unfounded, unrealistic, un-anything arguments thrown around like so many rotten tomatoes...

It gets irritating. Irritating not only because those with valid points to make are being overshadowed by the noob-geist, but that the ignorant ones simply don't know the issue, and lack the incentive to find out what it is.

FACT: The "slippery slope" argument (that if/when Salamence is banished to Ubers, the next top threat in OU will be considered suspect, and then the next, and then next, until there is no more OU) is complete bogus. Not only does it make absolutely no sense, but people are just bringing it up along with the feeble idea that "well, if sally was so broken before, why did it stay in OU for so long without being tested?" without simply thinking about it for a minute or two. Salamence has long been in the Suspect queue, but other Pokemon took higher priority in being tested (such as Garchomp, Shaymin-S, and Latias). Now that those Pokemon are finished with testing after so long, Salamence is now under the scrutiny it merits; thanks to the newly-formed Smogon Council, it's likely that this Suspect test (and following ones) will be completed far more quickly, ensuring no massive delay happens again.

Yes, perhaps if Salamence is banned, other Pokemon will become more threatening. That doesn't mean they'll be considered Suspect, as most of the Pokemon that are rising to dominance or already are (Infernape, Scizor, Tyranitar, etc.) are either checked/countered by a good portion of the Standard metagame, or became popular largely because of Salamence itself. Not every RoTom, MiloDick, and HarryYama will suddenly overwhelm Standard to the point where everything is Suspect.

FACT: The people who whine about how "oh but if sally is banned to ubers, he'll be terrible there, so he should stay OU" are morons. This bears repeating, despite the good works of people like SJCrew hammering it into said moron's heads via their signatures: A Pokemon is Uber NOT because of how well it does in the Uber tier, but by how well it does in the OU tier. Ubers is a BANLIST, and any Pokemon deemed Uber for any reason is automatically sent there, no matter how well they contend with the other Pokemon there. Ubers isn't meant to be balanced; it's meant to be a purgatory for those too powerful in Standard play. If Salamence is banned to Ubers, he may very will be a bucket of suck there, but that's not the point in banning a Pokemon.

FACT: "sally has counters, tho! weavile, mamoswine, and other powerful ice attackers can counter him! they can all-- " No. They are not counters, but checks. A counter is defined as something that can switch into ANY of the attacks the opposing Pokemon uses, and either force a switch to remove the threat, or dispatch it altogether with a OHKO or 2HKO, all while taking minimal damage. Meanwhile, a check is meant to force a Pokemon out after a revenge kill; the difference between the two is that checks are NOT able to switch in as they please, as they are either too frail or are weak to a common attack the foe carries.

Yes, Weavile and Mamoswine can dispatch Salamence with ease due to Ice Shard STAB, but it's damn near impossible for them to switch in on any move Salamence uses except for Dragon Dance and maybe Roost; even if they defy all odds and manage to pull off that achievement (more likely, they just switched in after a KO from Salamence), what's stopping Mr. Mence from simply switching out itself? Now you have Weavile/Mamoswine up against a potent threat that they can't handle (i.e., most anything in OU). Not a good position for the Ice-types.


I know all of these points have been discussed before, but I thought it might merit repeating if they were all consolidated into one post. If it doesn't seem necessary, just delete it.
It's impeccable how raging hypocrites here are claiming that I'm redundantly creating strawmen of ban-favoring players' arguments when that is precisely what you are doing right here. I wish you the best of luck in your endeavors to scroll up.
Of course I am. Nothing in my post said otherwise. >_>
So you concede that the players in favor of banning Salamence are merely hopping on the bandwagon? Interesting.

Quit abusing your power. You know who you are. And you're a terrible moderator.
 
It seems like most of the pro-OU people are turning into the Pokemon Tea Party. The same unfounded, unrealistic, un-anything arguments thrown around like so many rotten tomatoes...

It gets irritating. Irritating not only because those with valid points to make are being overshadowed by the noob-geist, but that the ignorant ones simply don't know the issue, and lack the incentive to find out what it is.

FACT: The "slippery slope" argument (that if/when Salamence is banished to Ubers, the next top threat in OU will be considered suspect, and then the next, and then next, until there is no more OU) is complete bogus. Not only does it make absolutely no sense, but people are just bringing it up along with the feeble idea that "well, if sally was so broken before, why did it stay in OU for so long without being tested?" without simply thinking about it for a minute or two. Salamence has long been in the Suspect queue, but other Pokemon took higher priority in being tested (such as Garchomp, Shaymin-S, and Latias). Now that those Pokemon are finished with testing after so long, Salamence is now under the scrutiny it merits; thanks to the newly-formed Smogon Council, it's likely that this Suspect test (and following ones) will be completed far more quickly, ensuring no massive delay happens again.

Yes, perhaps if Salamence is banned, other Pokemon will become more threatening. That doesn't mean they'll be considered Suspect, as most of the Pokemon that are rising to dominance or already are (Infernape, Scizor, Tyranitar, etc.) are either checked/countered by a good portion of the Standard metagame, or became popular largely because of Salamence itself. Not every RoTom, MiloDick, and HarryYama will suddenly overwhelm Standard to the point where everything is Suspect.

FACT: The people who whine about how "oh but if sally is banned to ubers, he'll be terrible there, so he should stay OU" are morons. This bears repeating, despite the good works of people like SJCrew hammering it into said moron's heads via their signatures: A Pokemon is Uber NOT because of how well it does in the Uber tier, but by how well it does in the OU tier. Ubers is a BANLIST, and any Pokemon deemed Uber for any reason is automatically sent there, no matter how well they contend with the other Pokemon there. Ubers isn't meant to be balanced; it's meant to be a purgatory for those too powerful in Standard play. If Salamence is banned to Ubers, he may very will be a bucket of suck there, but that's not the point in banning a Pokemon.

FACT: "sally has counters, tho! weavile, mamoswine, and other powerful ice attackers can counter him! they can all-- " No. They are not counters, but checks. A counter is defined as something that can switch into ANY of the attacks the opposing Pokemon uses, and either force a switch to remove the threat, or dispatch it altogether with a OHKO or 2HKO, all while taking minimal damage. Meanwhile, a check is meant to force a Pokemon out after a revenge kill; the difference between the two is that checks are NOT able to switch in as they please, as they are either too frail or are weak to a common attack the foe carries.

Yes, Weavile and Mamoswine can dispatch Salamence with ease due to Ice Shard STAB, but it's damn near impossible for them to switch in on any move Salamence uses except for Dragon Dance and maybe Roost; even if they defy all odds and manage to pull off that achievement (more likely, they just switched in after a KO from Salamence), what's stopping Mr. Mence from simply switching out itself? Now you have Weavile/Mamoswine up against a potent threat that they can't handle (i.e., most anything in OU). Not a good position for the Ice-types.


I know all of these points have been discussed before, but I thought it might merit repeating if they were all consolidated into one post. If it doesn't seem necessary, just delete it.
I'm pretty sure Riakou Lover covered a lot of this shit earlier. Just because there are a lot of poor, repeated arguments doesn't mean there aren't legitimate ones nestled in this thread. Once again you say it SEEMS like MOST of the pro-OU.....

The Pro-Uber crew is recycling the same arguments as well: "No counters" "it centralizes stuff too much whaa...waaa" and other things. Smogon makes up some definition about what it means to be Uber and focuses solely on that instead of taking into account the multitude of other factors that make Mence completely manageable. Notice that the Uber crew is complaining about how Mence over-centralizing the metagame is a reason for it becoming Uber. Nowhere in smogon's arbitrary Uber definitions does it mention anything about an Uber pokemon centralizing anything.

Im also sick of the fucking wordplay in this thread. "yes those are checks but not counters" Who gives a fuck what they are? If they can kill Salamence what is the fucking problem? Almost all arguments for Salamence going Uber stem from this "definition" that Smogon came up with and it is my opinion that there needs to be a little more flexibility and insight into this process before we just completely throw Pokemon out of certain tiers.
 
I'm pretty sure Riakou Lover covered a lot of this shit earlier. Just because there are a lot of poor, repeated arguments doesn't mean there aren't legitimate ones nestled in this thread. Once again you say it SEEMS like MOST of the pro-OU.....

The Pro-Uber crew is recycling the same arguments as well: "No counters" "it centralizes stuff too much whaa...waaa" and other things. Smogon makes up some definition about what it means to be Uber and focuses solely on that instead of taking into account the multitude of other factors that make Mence completely manageable. Notice that the Uber crew is complaining about how Mence over-centralizing the metagame is a reason for it becoming Uber. Nowhere in smogon's arbitrary Uber definitions does it mention anything about an Uber pokemon centralizing anything.

Im also sick of the fucking wordplay in this thread. "yes those are checks but not counters" Who gives a fuck what they are? If they can kill Salamence what is the fucking problem? Almost all arguments for Salamence going Uber stem from this "definition" that Smogon came up with and it is my opinion that there needs to be a little more flexibility and insight into this process before we just completely throw Pokemon out of certain tiers.
I agree with you entirely. It's clear to me that the, and I quote, "pro-banning bandwagon" has been unable to form actually refutes and instead uses the same argument repeatedly so that the same retort to said argument will be used, so they can thus hypocritically claim repetition.
 
It's impeccable how raging hypocrites here are claiming that I'm redundantly creating strawmen of ban-favoring players' arguments when that is precisely what you are doing right here. I wish you the best of luck in your endeavors to scroll up. It's also impeccable that Haunter feels the need to delete my posts without even providing a reason when I've done nothing but post logical arguments here.
I'd like to know why you think I'm targeting you with my post. I'm only trying to repost the points already discussed, since people are pretty much unable to scroll up (for the record, I already read the thread, so thanks for that, I guess). While I'm personally pro-ban, I'm not trying to take a side here, so I'm unsure why you and Sundy are taking it as a personal blow. I even said in my post that there are definitely intelligent, experienced people who have well-supported pro-OU arguments, but the majority of noobs are drowning out their voices. I fail to see the "strawman" arguments in a post meant to dispel them.

Again, if others deem my posts to be unnecessary, then they're more than welcome to have them deleted. I just figured that placing all the bogus ideas together in a more recent post would encourage people to read them before making their own posts, as the average Joe Schmoe isn't about to examine pages 1 - 16 to confirm their impending ideas aren't conflicted elsewhere.
 
Un-ban

This is probably a dumb question, but do pokemon ever become un-banned? For example, in the 5th Gen, if a pokemon that could easily counter salamence and also be countered, would mence become un-banned? Also, how do people decide what goes in which tier when new generations are released?
 
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