Yo, when did we change RBY tiers?

[Crystal_]

Originally Posted by Fat Crystal_
@Clefairy{m}: Your post was hilarious. You have no idea of what you are talking about yet you act as if you did.
Ouch low blow. You getting upset because someone is challenging your view?

I was just saying the truth. You don't know how rby works and many of the things you've said in your posts prove it.

"No pokes are getting past Starm/Chan/Zam without paralysis". Lolz, don't twist my words I never said that.

No, you didn't said that. I didn't either, I said Fire-types won't. What's your purpose with this "argument" lol?


Of course Golem/Rhydon are great counters. I never said otherwise.


Okay, since what you want to see is a list of the mons that get walled/are useless due to Golem/Rhydon i'll go for it:

Zapdos, Jolteon and Dodrio are the three OU viable mons that the rock type is hardwalling. Moltres kinda too, because it's the only fire-type ever worth considering (although the rock-type isnt hardwalling it at all). If there was no don/golem dodrio will have a persian-like potential, jolteon will get into the top 10 and zap into the top 5. Motlres would hardly be affected. Do you think thats enough to ban them? Okay, maybe you do, I don't know. But I don't think it's enough, nobody does.

Lets move on with the UU list. Thats what the rock type is effectively checking / hardwalling:
Aerodactyl
Charizard
Electabuzz
Electrode
Farfetch'd
Fearow
Flareon
Magmar
Magneton
Ninetales
Pidgeot
Rapidash
Scyther
Weezing

That's it. So yeah these all suck (with the possible exception of Aero). Take out Rhydon/Golem. uhm, yeah they all continue sucking.
Not to mention, more than half the other UUs will enjoy facing a team with a golem/rhydon, becaue that'd mean a free turn every time they switch into them.

Conclusion:

I'm arguing that "RBY as Whole" would be alot more balanced without them in it at all. Do you get that Crystal?

Bad argument

 

[Mr.E]

good trolling imo, now get out of my thread with this shit

Ninetales is the only Fire-type worth using because of Confuse Ray tbh. Well okay, I guess Moltres has Fire Spin but that's a wee bit more inaccurate than Wrap (and weaker than Clamp) and Moltres can't even learn Body Slam because it's a lame noob bird.

 

[Carl]

lol what is this discussion

Cloyster is OK and then Clamp makes it annoying. OU? Sure, I guess.. probably a BL pokemon if that was a real tier... is it a real tier ever? How is something borderline used? Semantics, I digress.. Anyway, I saw some Cloysters in SPL, pretty sure that helped my record more than it hurt it. Lapras and Starmie are both champs when it comes to dealing with Cloyster and my Tauros was packing Thunderbolt in a few matches just to be extra cute. To me, Clamp and Explosion is the selling point which makes Cloyster a unique pokemon worthy of consideration in regular play...

...which, in turn, is the exact same justification as to why I have no issue with Dodrio being considered a UU mon. Dodrio's one unique selling point is Drill Peck on Eggy and, sorry, you'll never get to land that unless it's the end of the game. In which case, you probably would have had a similar result with Tauros. Rhydon and Golem will be coming in every. single. time. against Dodrio. Your best hope is to Body Slam, snag a paralysis, and take comfort in the fact that now your own Golem/Rhydon will now be able to hit first in a head to head situation. Dodrio is fairly redundant when compared to Tauros (Persian is arguable, Snorlax is a different type of normal mon) and if you're doubling up those two, chances are Tauros was the throw in because "it's Tauros, gotta have it" and Dodrio was added because you wanted it.. not necessarily because you needed it. All this coming from "MrDodrio..."

Speaking of Rhydon and Golem, are we seriously even entertaining the idea of banning them? Many pokemon have no issues taking them out (I find them to be a liability at times, if I'm being candid..) and, hell, I'll partially invalidate some of my points above, if you're using a pokemon that really struggles against them (Zapdos/Dodrio/Jolteon), then you should be pretty prepared to work around them. Or, you know, don't use those liable pokemon in case you want to avoid the situation altogether. Seriously, guy, you have it backward. Banning Rhydon and Golem hurts UU pokemon in OU play, if anything, because now Zapdos is going to be on every team. I'd rather face a rock/ground type than Zapdos..

And, to stand on my soapbox for a moment, let me reflect on tiers in general. In real practice, there should only be two tiers: banned and unbanned. In the case of RBY, it's consensus that Mewtwo and Mew are "uber" and banned. Everything else in RBY is considered in the "unbanned tier." So MrE, does it really matter that Dodrio is classified as UU? Nobody's stopping you from using it in regular play and you should be happy it's UU if you're using the OU list as a subset of the "banned" list. This whole discussion of removing the BL tier and adding so and so to the UU/OU list... who cares? It makes no difference to anyone except the very, very few who think UU RBY is a worthwhile medium to play pokemon in. And Ban Golem Guy, sorry, but Rhydon and Golem are not centralizing, not overpowering, not uncounterable, not worthy of being added side by side with Mewtwo and Mew. So peddle your weak arguments elsewhere, or better yet, learn to play with UU mons a bit better instead of posting nonsense here. Might be more worth your time..



Sorry for the ramble here but I'm sure whatever I said was at least more sensible than Ban Golem Guy..

 

[Clefairy{m}]

Oh Carl. You you..., you guy you.

That's true. The evil thing about banning Golem is that Zapdos becomes a beast. And I agree that Zapdos is more of a hassle for UU pokes to beat come to think of it.

I guess RBY will never be balanced to the way I wish it were. Close one can of worms and another one opens up, even bigger than before.

I don't like your comment "that I should learn how to use UU pokes better". I know which ones are viable atm and can use them. I was just trying to open up the playing field via removing Rhydon.

 

[gene]

yeah.... we should really keep the embarrassing "ban things we arbitrarily don't want to play against" shit out of rby and the old gens.

for the record, i think cloyster is pretty damn good in rby and is way more worthy of being ou than shit like persian.

 

[Matrulez25]

cloyster didnt have acces to abillities in r/b/y so in my opinion i found it to be fairly weak i dont believe at all it should be OU unless used as a dragonite check

 

[Matrulez25]

sorry had to clarify my previous post "NO" pokemon had access to abilities

 

[Hipmonlee]

Ok, I will make the long case for cloyster.

Lets say you build an OU rby team, and you end up with say: Starmie, Eggy, Chansey, Tauros, Lax, Rhydon. Which is a pretty standard team, and if you have ever bothered to change your rby team at all, then I expect you have at some point used that exact team.

This team is pretty comfortable against Lapras, it has Starmie and Chansey which should be enough. Sure Lapras will be a pain sometimes, but Lapras is a good pokemon.

On the other hand, Cloyster is a right shit of a thing. Against a jynx lead, starmie will almost definitely get slept, which, for a Lapras would prevent it sleeping Chansey. Once Starmie is asleep then only Chansey can come into cloyster. Clamp does fuck all to Chansey, but it does incapacitate it for a turn. Meaning Tauros can come in without being chipped away at at all. Tauros will chip away at any team faster than that team will chip away at Cloyster. And because Cloyster is clamping Chansey, Chansey isnt able to recover the chip away damage either. You can try to wake Mie against Cloyster, but, that gives you the exact same problem, arguably worse.

Then on top of that Cloyster can explode. So it has a strong chance of doing a fuckload of damage to a team with clamp, and on top of that it can explode, which is a really nice way to hedge your bets. It's a hard explosion to predict too, since it 2hkos Rhydon with Clamp, and if you Clamp and they dont switch to Rhydon, you still have a 75% chance of not losing anything.

So the thing for me is that unlike all the other borderline pokes, it is worth considering Cloyster when building your team. There is no point about stressing about Jolteon, if you can beat Zapdos then Jolteon isnt an issue. If you beat Exeggutor and Alakazam you will almost certainly beat Hypno. If you beat Lapras you will almost certainly beat Articuno. Dodrio is quite bad..

But you can definitely go wrong by only thinking about how to deal with Lapras and not thinking about how to deal with Cloyster.

 

[Mr.E]

snorlax sux imo so no, but you did get the Rhydon part correct since it's obviously better than Golem

The thing with Cloyster is that it can't do any lasting damage to stuff. Cloyster has no status and no speed booster, so I can pretty much just switch between Starmie and Alakazam all day until Clamp misses and I Recover or attack accordingly while it switches out. At least Dragonite can spread paralysis, whether T-Wave or Body Slam, and Agility lets its quasi-ignore paralysis itself while letting it trap on all the stuff that is otherwise faster than it. Dragonite is legit. Cloyster is like a crappy Snorlax, they both threaten Chansey and can explode but in exchange for being all-around extremely dangerous, Cloyster gets to be better at dueling Tauros and sucking at everything else.

I can't really argue usage, though, didn't play any RBY at all this past SPL season. That said, old tiers weren't based off usage stats and there's no point in even attempting to start doing that since we don't have much to go on anymore. RBYGSC tiers are still strictly merit-based as far as I'm concerned.

And, to stand on my soapbox for a moment, let me reflect on tiers in general. In real practice, there should only be two tiers: banned and unbanned. In the case of RBY, it's consensus that Mewtwo and Mew are "uber" and banned. Everything else in RBY is considered in the "unbanned tier." So MrE, does it really matter that Dodrio is classified as UU? Nobody's stopping you from using it in regular play and you should be happy it's UU if you're using the OU list as a subset of the "banned" list. This whole discussion of removing the BL tier and adding so and so to the UU/OU list... who cares? It makes no difference to anyone except the very, very few who think UU RBY is a worthwhile medium to play pokemon in.

Well no, it doesn't really matter all that much other than I'm a bit of a stickler for detail, perfectionist, etc. I just happened to notice something highly unusual when I was poking through the site 'Dex. But the same could be said of Hip, no? He's the one who changed the damn things in the first place.

I nominate user evan for championing Dodrio for me. He can use it to chip away at Golem/Rhydon so Zapdos can own even harder. Dodrio Hyper Beam also OHKOs Jynx (and Dugtrio! man I remember those days...) for what it's worth. Dodrio hits harder than Tauros and Persian and still outspeeds everything on the slow half of the metagame (Eggy Chansey etc.), so he's kind of an okay dood but yeah.

And way to goad another scrubbie out of hiding. :justin2: Cloyster: the Dragonite check.

 

[Omanyte]

Surely it's Gengar that's stopping a lot of pokemon reaching their potential, rather than Golem/Rhydon? Gengar walls pretty much everything without Psychic or Earthquake. That's a lot of pokemon.

Still, neither Gengar or Golem/Rhydon are really used enough to change the usage of most UU pokemon.