Gen 2 Some Garbo GSC team of mine featuring Suicune

[Jorgen]

Here's a team I whipped up a while back when I was desperately trying to fit Suicune on a team. Normally, I end up just not considering it or replacing it with something like Starmie or Miltank that can actually support the team better.

I came into this thinking Suicune's best set was Roar and that it needed Spikes to work consistently, so I added Forretress on the team since Cloyster just "felt" redundant. Plus, Forr is Toxic-immune, which is nice since I wanted to have a way to win the long-term Spikes war without needing a Heal Beller. If I did use Cloyster and therefore need a Heal Beller to beat Toxic long-term, I guarantee you that Suicune would have been the prime target for replacement by Miltank.

I then added Gengar for spinblock because Forr can HP Bug to keep Starmie out whereas Cloy and other Forr are pretty handily blocked by Gengar. Plus, Gengar is Toxic immune unlike Missy, and it also adds some instant offensive punch and adds a Sleeper to the team, which is always a nice ace in the hole to have.

After that I tacked Zapdos on the team because Gengar can bait and explode on Raikou to make Zapdos's life easier. With Spikes to facilitate the Explosion KO on Raikou and to facilitate the possible Thunder KO on Snorlax, Zapdos seemed a particularly natural fit. Zapdos also offers defensive boons as a Sleep Talker and Heracross/Machamp/Vap check. It seems like I put a lot of thought into this, but not really; I just kinda slapped Zapdos on and realized afterward just how well it gelled.

Following that, I added Marowak to have an Electric immunity and to offer some more instant offense. Zapdos and Gengar also tended to bait Raikous, Tyranitars, Steelixes, and opposing Snorlaxes, all of which Marowak thrives against when it catches them on the double-switch. I usually have trouble using Marowak, but this felt like my best bet at getting it to work for me since I have plenty to bait its best matchups, plus I have Rapid Spin support from Forr to boot.

Finally, I tacked a standard Curselax onto the team. Very basic, but Curse allows it to net Lefties recovery more easily while walling Electrics for me, and Marowak's existence makes it more likely that Snorlax switches into Hidden Powers instead of Thunders. The main reason I use EQ Curselax as opposed to another set is because Snorlax is mainly a defensive beast on this team, and without EQ I don't really have a solid answer to Gengar and, more importantly, have no way to prevent Misdreavus from capitalizing off of Lax. Curselax gives me an extra answer (if only just a half-baked answer) to opposing Curselax, and it baits Skarm/GrowlTank/Charmbreon matchups, all of which are prime matchups for Forretress.

The final result is as follows, with minimal descriptions since I kind of already described each mon's role in the teambuilding process above.


Gengar (M) @ Leftovers
- Thunderbolt
- Ice Punch
- Hypnosis
- Explosion

Spinblocker, monolax staller, Raikou baiter, and sleeper.


Marowak (M) @ Thick Club
- Earthquake
- Rock Slide
- Hidden Power [Bug]
- Swords Dance

Instant offense and Thunder immunity (therefore Hidden Power bait). In addition to Gengar and Zapdos, it contributes hugely to this team not just being a shitty passive stall team. Capitalizes off the ability of Zapdos and Gengar to bait favorable matchups. HP Bug > HP Fly because OHKOs on Exeggutor and who even uses Heracross anyway.


Zapdos @ Leftovers
- Thunder
- Hidden Power [Ice]
- Rest
- Sleep Talk

Sleep Talker and all-around cool dude. It synergizes well both offensively and defensively, but it's Zapdos, that's inevitable.


Snorlax (M) @ Leftovers
- Double-Edge
- Earthquake
- Curse
- Rest

Mainly patches up a bunch of defensive gaps, including opposing Gengar, Electrics, and, to an extent, non-mono Curselaxen. Also, it's Curselax, so it can easily clean up endgame or take advantage of certain Curselax-weak teams (like this one :P).


Forretress (M) @ Leftovers
- Hidden Power [Bug]
- Spikes
- Rapid Spin
- Explosion

Spiker/spinner for the team. Not much to it, it's Toxic-immune, switches in easily on a lot of stuff Snorlax baits, has Gengar to spinblock for it, and can always Explode when I'm in dire straits against Snorlax, Quagsire, Nidoking, or Marowak. Also it checks Giga Egg, which is nice.


Suicune @ Leftovers
- Surf
- Toxic
- Roar
- Rest

Suicune is cool. Phazer for the team, it steps in against Curselax when I need it to (I WILL need it to), hardwalls all but Roar or last-poke Vaporeon (although there's Zapdos and Snorlax for other variants), checks Grounds easily, shuts down Charizard and Tentacruel (not that those are too big a deal for this team), and can Roar/Toxic shuffle with Spikes down. I guess the main thing making Suicune good for this team is just how many things it shuts down that the team needs it to.


Of course, as I alluded to, this team can struggle with Curselax, especially those that pack a coverage move to render Gengar unable to check it. This team relies on Suicune to act as a temporary stop, Spikes + Zapdos Thunders weakening it, pressure from Marowak double-switches, and if all else fails, my own Snorlax smacking it around with Double-Edge in the Curselax ditto. The Curselax issue is honestly the biggest problem with this team, but since it's such a prominent problem it's basically a dealbreaker that prevents me from using this team in a truly serious match. Ghosts can also be trouble, since my Phazer is Thunder-weak (although Misdreavus is more likely to use Attract than Thunder nowadays) and, outside of Snorlax, I don't really have anything that can both take Gengar's Boltbeam and force it out - and Snorlax can be slept. No STAB Psychics makes Machamp a bit of a doozy to force out, although this team is a far cry from a Machamp-weak team with Suicune and Zapdos, in addition to Gengar and boom from Forretress helping out. This team is particularly capable of dealing with Vaporeon thanks to Suicune, although other Baton Pass Eeveelutions, particularly Jolteon, are tough to deal with. Instead of doing the classic Phazer switch-in to deal with Agi- or Growth-pass, I have to pressure with Marowak, Forr boom, Gengar outpacing a potential +2 Drumlax, and setting up Curselax to have counterplay against it.

Thanks for taking the time to read my ramblings about GSC teambuilding.

 

[Borat]

I like this.

Curselax weak though, as you've mentioned. That's probably the biggest weakness of suicune; the other 3 primary defensive phazers all "stop" snorlax to some extent (ttar, skarm, steelix).

I think marowak looks like it would underperform here too. Marowak probably works better with pseudo screens than it does with "double switches", as most things will hit marowak for 40%+, and marowak fails to OHKO almost everything from the get-go. So what ends up happening is even in a favorable matchup, you get hit for 40%+ and hit them back for ~50-60%, then a switch happens where wak is forced out.

But yeah, suicune and wak are both burdens imo. And if you change those to more "fitting" pokemon (i.e. nidoking, steelix, cloyster, etc), you'd end up with something we've both already used.

 

[jaQ]

No glaring weaknesses, very solid team. Creativity points for not using skarm.

You could throw on hp ghost on forry to piss off gengar and still maintain eggy/starmie hitting abilities....lol... don't even think I've seen an hp ghost forry or used one but I just can't think of any good suggestions. Ground works better but you want to hit eggy right?

I also think its worth mentioning that fblasting curselax could be worth a try....but meh I dunno. On the plus side you will nail an unsuspecting skarm once and be able to sweep with maro a lot faster. Also, since your rolling with cune rocks pose less of a threat. On the negative gengar can trade with lax (more incentive to try a different hidden power on forry). Rocks will laugh at you, and depending on when you decide to expose fire blast, you might get out predicted and never even get the chance to land one on skarm, so ya, just something to consider.

 

[Mr.E]

I still don't understand the point of Toxic Suicune. What's Toxic any good against? Eggy's the only thing that comes to mind and Ice Beam's better against it, hits Zapdos reasonably hard on a switch, and desperation lolfreeze. Doesn't need to wear down Snorlax to bring in a better answer, Suicune already is an answer. Doesn't need Toxic to wear down Marowak and friends, it can just 2HKO them with Surf if they're ever forced to match up directly against Suicune.

There's a number of ways to alleviate the Curselax problem. Gengar could use one (or both) of Perish Song or Destiny Bond, neither flawless solutions but they do get bypass Curse. Could just use Missy instead, it holds up better against coverage moves. Yeah it doesn't bait and explode on Raikou but not-losing to standard Curselax is probably a good idea too, just saying. A Nightmare set can keep Hypnosis on it or you can use LK Lax with the standard Singer. On that note, Selfdestruct on Lax can pretty reliably chunk other Snorlax or punch a hole in Skarmory to open up a Marowak sweep. If trading Snorlax is something you can get behind, you can bulk up against Raikou/Zapdos with a Sleep Talk set on Wak.

 

[Jorgen]

Actually, the main reason I went with Toxic on Cune was to catch Cloyster. If I can wear down Cloyster, I can spin away its Spikes much more easily, and furthermore I don't have to worry about Gengar taking Surfs while spinblocking. It also comes in handy when a Roared-in Snorlax decides to stay in or a Roar Raikou decides to switch in to get something started. I will admit that Ice Beam would be super-nice for Zapdos, though, especially if my aim is to try and Spikes shuffle with this thing. Cheesing for Freezes wouldn't be all that bad an idea, either, given the sheer number of foes Suicune can stay in against.

As for Misdreavus, it just really wouldn't work all that great imo. A ML-Hypno-Nightmare set is actually caught under a general Sleep Trap ban on PO, and in general is just dirty tactics (not that CRay + Ptrap isn't). Also I really do need EQ on Lax so that I can fight against other Misdreavus, so it's either I have Sleep on the Ghost or I don't get it at all. Plus, I just like being able to attack with my Ghost, and it's not like Misdreavus actually cures the EQ Curselax weak anyway. owever, I might give it a go, I mean Misdreavus was the first Ghost I actually had in that slot before I decided I'd rather have Hypnosis on my Ghost than LK on my Lax. While I'd lose out on sleep (and offense in general), I'd fare at least a little bit better against Curselax (albeit worse against Drumlax).

SelfDestruct Snorlax would definitely change the flavor of this team, although if I ran that I'd probably just toss Raikou over Marowak because Marowak is garbage defensively. I actually have done something like that before, although it wasn't fantastic. Misdreavus problems were amplified because Snorlax was no longer just defensive glue, but actively looking to Explode. Curselax problems were also amplified, since I lose the ability to pressure it with Marowak and Snorlax had to try to Explode on it instead of going for the Curselax ditto.

Thanks for your thoughts!

 

[magic9mushroom]

Curselax gives me an extra answer (if only just a half-baked answer) to opposing Curselax, and it baits Skarm/GrowlTank/Charmbreon matchups, all of which are prime matchups for Forretress

If you're leaving Forretress in on Umbreon, don't you risk trap-pass? I'm just thinking that it'd kinda suck to have to blow up Forretress on Steelix.

 

[Jorgen]

I put Cune in on Umbreon until I've scouted the set and determined it doesn't have trappass.

 

[magic9mushroom]

I put Cune in on Umbreon until I've scouted the set and determined it doesn't have trappass.

Ah, I see. It was just a little confusing above.

 

[monster]

Novel and entertaining. I can't think of any real good counters or much to say that hasn't already been said, but there is one thing to watch out for in case Zapdos goes down: Curse Kingdra, with Curse/Hydro Pump/Rest/Return. No one uses it, and you're probably fine with Snorlax and Suicune there to back you up, but it does pose a threat. Also, you mentioned Eeveelutions, and I use a Jolteon with Thunder/HP Ice/Growth/Sub, which works remarkably well, especially against Zapdos. Your only counter for that Marowak if he doesn't have any Growths or of course Snorlax. The only way to reinforce against these minor threats would be to give Snorlax Selfdestruct over Rest, and Belly Drum over Curse. I don't think Snorlax needs to be a Curselax, it's old news and no one uses it anymore - with good reason. But props for being original.