Masters and Disciples - last team before 6th gen.

aVocado

@ Everstone
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The title makes no sense, I know. I just wanted a cool title.
After quitting competitive Pokemon a while before B/W2 were released, I've finally came back after a year and a half and it's actually better than before. Oh well, here it comes:​



Team building process:





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I started with Mew. A Pokemon I've used in the B/W metagame before I quit with great success. And what better set is there to use in the OU besides the Wallbreaker set?

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Next came Tyranitar. Always had him in all of my teams, always will. It's just a great Pokemon. Incredible special bulk, respectable physical bulk despite all his weaknesses, and impressive attack stats even though it lacks a bit in terms of speed, but that's not that much of a big deal in this metagame.

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Next came in was Latias. A great little princess. Impressive defenses, great speed, and respectable matk. I've used a set before (with success) that can work as a bulky LO sweeper and a great status absorber, so I thought I'd use it again. And, well, it didn't disappoint.

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The newly added member here was Jirachi. I was looking for a scarfed revenge-killer when it hit me, Jirachi has 100 base speed which can troll all the scarfed Kyurem-B, Salamence, Gyarados (yes, it exists), and basically anything with a 90-100 base speed. It also can abuse hax to it's advabtage thanks to Iron Head. So for those reasons, I didn't hesitate to add a scarfed Jirachi with the 3 elemental punches and iron head into my team.

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Keldeo. I never liked Keldeo. I absolutely hate ponies. But I changed my mind about him when I added him into my team to try and check rain, it's pretty beast. Even though many of the times it's completely walled thanks to poor STAB combinations, it still puts holes into an enemy's rain (or not) team.

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And finally, the last member of the team, Ferrothorn. I still felt a little rain weak so I added this guy. I also noticed the lack of a Pokemon that can setup Stealth Rock in my team so that's another reason. Even though I never liked this guy, he also turned out to be a beast with Leech Seed support.

That was my final team for a while. After a little bit testing though, it turns out that I was weak to specially-defensive Heatran pretty badly, so I had change a Pokemon in my team, and it was Jirachi.

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Now that's what I call a "rain rapist"! In a metagame centered mostly of rain, this team can hold up very well. Even against sun it can do pretty good (on paper, haven't tested). And I'm willing to bet all my money that it can rape hail as well. Conkeldurr was a great addition to my team and a pretty good revenge-killer that could replace Jirachi.

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I realized my team was way too weak to Psychic types and Volcarona especially, so a rated suggested I add Garchomp as a Scarfed revenge-killer instead of Conkeldurr and it's worked wonderfully. Now I can revenge fast Psychic types and Volcarona even if it's set up, with Stone Edge.


Team at a glance:

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In depth:

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@ Leftovers
Trait: Synchronize
EVs: 220 HP / 164 Def / 36 SpA / 88 Spe
Timid Nature
- Will-O-Wisp
- Taunt
- Softboiled
- Ice Beam

My usual lead. It doesn't only blow people away since they ALWAYS think it's gonna use Stealth Rock, but it also blows people away because it spreads burns and can easily break through walls with Taunt/Burn. Ice Beam does great against dragons whether they're burned or not. Dragonite isn't a problem here because I can easily burn him and tank all his physical hits, a mixed Dragonite with Hurricane in the rain can be quite troublesome though, but I can burn to negate Multiscale's effect assuming SR isn't up and then Ice Beam for a neat OHKO or 2HKO. It can't really do anything besides Hurricane.

I've ran against a bunch of people who switch in Xatu on Mew fearing an SR or a Taunt, but they're vulnerable to Ice Beam. Although reflecting Taunt unto my Mew is annoying, I can predict a switch and Ice Beam right away. Espeon is the problem though, especially variants with HP Fighting or Signal Beam. Tyranitar, despite being specially defensive, can fall to those.

It's pretty obvious why I chose Taunt on this moveset, to break walls and cripple Pokemon like Blissey or Ferrothorn and the likes. And it works pretty well. Softboiled is my healing move of choice and it's pretty great. Mew doesn't die easily unless he's being constantly being hit with heavy moves.

EVs make this guy quite bulky and able to take an Outrage from dragons and retaliate with either a burn to make Mew tank another one and cripple the dragons or Ice Beam if I'm comfortable it will score an OHKO. Timid 88 Spd make me outspeed all Tyranitar, Magnezone, max Heatran, most Landorus-T, all variants of Gliscor, and Scizor. It also lets me safely OHKO Lando-T and Gliscor which are somewhat troublesome to my team.

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(M) @ Leftovers
Trait: Sand Stream
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 248 SpD / 4 Spe
Careful Nature
- Crunch
- Pursuit
- Superpower
- Stealth Rock

My powerhorse. Not only does it counter the Lati@s solid, but it can also do huge amounts of damage thanks to Crunch to basically anything that doesn't resist it. Superpower nails down stupid Ferrothorn switch-ins and it's a pretty good coverage move as it can do a neat chunk of damage to anything that switches in. Pursuit is obvious as I need it to trap the Lati@s, and Crunch is my preferable STAB move that I spam if there was nothing that resists it. Stealth Rock is there because I really need the extra free moveslot on Ferrothorn, and the only other viable move is Stone Edge, which is something I don't need much.

EVs make Tyranitar bulky on the special side that it can never die against a Lati@s unless it has prior-damage, and even with that there's a big chance that I will trap the Lati@s and OHKO anyway. 4 Spd allow me to speed-creep other Tyranitars with no speed investments and rape them with Superpower.

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@ Choice Scarf
Trait: Iron Fist
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 HP / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Outrage
- Dragon Claw
- Earthquake
- Stone Edge

I used to have Conkeldurr in this place and used it as my revenge-killer with Mach Punch. While it did the job very well, it left my team very open to Psychic types. Mainly Alakazam and to an extent, Espeon. It also left me very open to Volcarona and basically being a set-up fodder against her. So I switched him to this guy instead as Plus suggested, and tested it for a while, and it was pretty awesome. The quick Stone Edge helped me many times and not only against Volcarona.

Outrage and Dragon Claw are pretty obvious. Outrage is the usual move of choice, but sometimes it's too risky getting confused so I go with Dragon Claw instead, especially if opposing Pokemon have been damaged to the point where I can KO with Dragon Claw. Earthquake and Stone Edge make the infamouse QuakEdge combo which has won me quite the number of games.


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(F) @ Life Orb
Trait: Levitate
EVs: 152 HP / 176 SAtk / 180 Spd
Modest Nature
- Draco Meteor
- Hidden Power Fire
- Recover
- Surf

Latias is a bit underrated, because it's always compared to it's male counterpart. People don't realize that Latias is arguably better though, having access to very good offensive and defensive stats, and being able to successfully sweep while still being bulky and having a solid method of recovery through Recover. I used to have Refresh over HP Fire and used to use Latias as my status absorber, but I realized that I didn't really need a status absorber if it can't absorb Sleep. Ferrothorn can take on burns and paralysis all day without complaining, so yeah.

Draco Meteor is a given, so is Recover. I went with HP Fire and Surf to get as much coverage as I can against Steels and Ground-types, mainly Lucario and Gliscor. EVs allow me to survive +2 ES from Lucario while maintaining minimum LO recoil damage.

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@ Expert Belt
Trait: Justified
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SAtk / 252 Spd
Timid Nature
- Hydro Pump
- Icy Wind
- Secret Sword
- Hidden Power Ghost

Used to be a Specs Keldeo, until Plus pointed out that EBelt Keldeo can indeed do as well as Specs Keldeo and can actually take down Celebi on it's own if I predict the switch-in and use Icy Wind. As I just explained, Icy Wind is there to surprise switch-ins (mainly Celebi and the Lati@s) and lower their speed, hopefully being able to KO in the next turn with HP Ghost. HP Ghost is also there instead of Electric so I can actually damage Celebi while still being able to damage Jelli. The only downside of giving up HP Electric is not being able to hit other Water-types, but I have Ferrothorn to tank them on all day.

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(M) @ Leftovers
Trait: Iron Barbs
EVs: 252 HP / 88 Def / 168 SDef
Relaxed Nature
- Spikes
- Leech Seed
- Protect
- Gyro Ball

Another rain check, and my.. well, my everything. Leech Seed has been great help for Mew as it can let him stall with Burn/Leech Seed and Softboiled/Ice Beam, and Protect can help Ferro himself stall. He can set up Spikes if he gets the chance, especially since it adds even more hazards for easier stalling. Gyro Ball is filler, really. It's had its uses, and it's definitely a strong STAB for such a slow Pokemon. I used to have HP Fire instead, and yes it has been very helpful. It has more than 50% chance to OHKO SD Scizor after SR, and it can hurt other Ferrothorns who think they can get into a stall war with my own Ferro.​







Threats I've noticed:
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: Separately, Heatran can't really do anything, but together with Celebi it's hell. Celebi being able to counter Keldeo and Latias cold, while still being able to damage my Tyranitar (somewhat), and Heatran being able to take my Ttar's Crunch (while Celebi takes Superpower). My only hope of defeating them would be to sacrifice a Pokemon to get in Tyranitar against Celebi and Pursuit, fingers crossed it's not an offensive Celebi with Leaf Storm. Can be dealt with now.

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: I just can't touch them. Especially if they have Signal Beam (in Espeon's case) and surprisingly I've ran against a lot that do. Alakazam can simply sweep through most of my team with just Psychic and Focus Blast while I can barely do anything in return, only hope I have is to catch him offguard with Tyranitar, survive his Focus Blast and OHKO with Crunch. Can be dealt with now.

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: If it has Giga Drain, it sweeps my team clean, period. Unless one of my Pokemon magically survive one of her moves or if i have SR up, it's a loss for me. Can be dealt with now.
 
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Alright, going to go over the things I've realized while going over the team:

-You aren't using the Sandstorm from Tyranitar to your best advantage. While it is nice for damage and for stalling with Tyranitar, it just ends up damaging you in the end.

-The main problem I see with anything on your team would be the fact that yes, it is very weak to Volcarona. This can be easily fixed though, and I would suggest it for your best.

-Psychic Types including the ones you listed throw a giant wrench into your team, causing it to be taken down without a problem once Tyranitar is dead.



I personally love the way you are running Mew though. You have nice coverage for all attackers that can kill Mew, and can stop any setters (disregarding Azelf), and stops all those Physical Attackers. I see Volcarona still posing as a threat to this beautiful tyrant all the while, because even if you get one Taunt off, you will have been outsped and the QD Volcarona is set up, ready to OHKO your team. Can't really say anything to change this though, it's pretty much good!




Personally, Tyranitar is the most conflicting part of the team, as you can tell by what I assume. I just, don't feel like it will cover what you want it to. But, you have a choice in this regardless. I will suggest two Pokemon though:

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Mamoswine @ Choice Scarf/Band
Trait: Thick Fat
EVs: 252 Atk / 252 Spd / 4 HP
Adamant/Jolly Nature
- Earthquake
- Rock Slide
- Ice Shard/Icicle Crash
- Superpower

This set runs off Mamo's amazing coverage, typing, and of course it's Top Tier Attacking abilities. The reason I have two Choices is that Mamoswine shouldn't need to lose its health to get a OHKO, since it can still get 2HKO by many Pokemon in the tier. I have the different choices in that and nature for whatever your preference would be. Earthquake and Ice Shard/Icicle Crash are standard coverage and run well throughout the tier. Rock Slide is to take care of those pesky Volcaronas and anything else that Rock Slide covers. Superpower is there to break Dark and certain Rock types that take EQs like nothing (I'm looking at you, Tyranitar and your Sand Stream, also this is fairly ironic.)

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Scizor @ Choice Band
Trait: Technician
EVs: 252 Atk / 252 HP / 4 SpD
Adamant Nature
-Bullet Punch
-Superpower
-Pursuit
-Bug Bite

I can't explain how amazing this guy is, but we all know he is one of the most used OU Pokemon for a reason. With all these ridiculous boosts it gets from its everything, Bullet Punch solidifying OHKO's on pretty much everything that doesn't resist. All the rest of the moves sitting there are for standard coverage and of course, trapping with Pursuit. You can change these however you want.



I have no problem with your Conkeldurr set, because you explained it all very well. If I were you though, I would suggest changing Pursuit to Ice Punch, due to Thundurus-T and all the other banes of Mr. Durrhurr.

Since I don't feel like trading off with a different suggestion, I would like to say that maybe Dragon Pulse could work as a better tool for damage. You don't lose any of your Special Attack + Life Orb adds to the damage a lot anyway. Recover was a nice choice for a move also ;3



Keldeo with Choice Specs is really viable and I like it myself also :3 If I have anything to suggest, it would be to replace Surf or Hydro Pump with Icy Wind, that way you have something to counter Flying and Dragon Types that would otherwise give Keldeo a challenge.

If you take my suggestion for a new Pokemon from earlier, I would suggest replacing Spikes with Stealth Rocks. It gets more damage on pretty much everything as we all know and we don't want any flying/levitates getting away with no damage. Gyro Ball should work well as a STAB for it, but wouldn't reducing your Speed IVs to 0 make it better? Maybe that's what I have stuck in my head, but I barely see Gyro Ball anymore so meh.



All in all, you have a well set-up team, and these were just the mini suggestions I thought I would set for you. Hope any of these helped, and good luck in 5th Gen OU Tier haha.
 
To address your concerns with the weaknesses your team has, if you want to replace Conkeldurr with another revenge killer, Scarf Garchomp might work for you. You're essentially giving yourself a surefire way to beat some faster threats, and it has enough bulk to outlast things like Volcarona or Sash Alakazam. Switch it into something that won't do much damage like Signal Beam, HP Fire, etc. and you can kill Zam off in two turns afterwards. Your Ferro can tank a Focus Blast if absolutely necessary if Zam carries HP Ice so you can get it down to kill range for Garchomp to switch in, but that's in a worst case scenario. I realize that the SD set is a lot more troublesome, but Scarf chomp makes a decent revenge killer if need be.

I personally like Tyranitar on this team, as it's probably one of the best partners to Keldeo. Especially since I suggested Chomp over Conkeldurr, the residual damage really isn't that bad for a team like this as it seems that this team would really benefit off of losing Lati@s, or even Starmie which your Tar can also trap. I don't think Espeon is honestly that much of a problem for this team: it's Espeon. Signal Beam on a worst case scenario does like 45% maximum, and this is considering you run Life Orb and max Satk (which most don't). Tyranitar is one of the most solid ways to deal with Espeon.

If you don't like Celetran combos, then try out the Expert Belt set on Keldeo, as it forces many switches and provides great coverage. Run HP Ghost over HP Electric, as you will be able to 2HKO Celebi with Stealth Rock and Sandstorm up with it, as well as most Jellicent. Jelli/Celebi/Heatran is a very common core, and Expert Belt Keldeo gives that core a bunch of trouble if you predict well enough. Specs surely does hit hard, but Expert Belt Keldeo can straight up sweep teams that pack even the most common Keldeo responses (such as Celebi or Jellicent). Since you're dropping Specs, I also recommend losing either Hydro Pump or Surf for Icy Wind for maximum coverage, as Ebelt Keldeo can also 2HKO Latias after Sandstorm and Stealth Rock with Icy Wind, and it can outspeed them after the speed drop as well.

With Scarfchomp over Conkeldurr and EBelt Keldeo, I don't think you'll have issues with Volc or Celetran combinations. Heck, you can even run HP Bug on Keldeo if you hate Celebi that much, though I personally like HP Ghost better because it hits Jellicent and even Latis. HP Ghost and Icy Wind provide you the extra coverage you need to beat those threats, while Scarf Chomp gives you the needed speed to pick off Volcarona before it attempts to sweep through your whole team.

Garchomp @Choice Scarf
Jolly 252 atk / 252 spe / 4 hp
Outrage/Dragon Claw/Earthquake/Stone Edge

Keldeo @ Expert Belt
Timid 252 satk / 252 spe / 4 hp
Surf / Secret Sword / HP Ghost / Icy Wind
 
I think I'm liking the idea of Garchomp over Conkeldurr, and I'm very much liking the idea of Expert Belt Keldeo. There's nothing Specs Keldeo could do that EBelt Keldeo can't, and Icy Wind has proven it's worth a couple of times, allowing me to surprise switch-ins and outspeed them the next turn. HP Ghost has also helped me get rid of Celebi quite a few times. People would switch her on an Icy Wind followed by HP Ghost and usually they're dead.

Garchomp still needs more testing though. For sure, the scarf helps me outspeed pretty much everything instead of having to rely on a priority move that can be easily countered by psychic types, and Garchomp also outspeeds Volc at +1 which is also a huge help.

Alright, going to go over the things I've realized while going over the team:

-You aren't using the Sandstorm from Tyranitar to your best advantage. While it is nice for damage and for stalling with Tyranitar, it just ends up damaging you in the end.

-The main problem I see with anything on your team would be the fact that yes, it is very weak to Volcarona. This can be easily fixed though, and I would suggest it for your best.

-Psychic Types including the ones you listed throw a giant wrench into your team, causing it to be taken down without a problem once Tyranitar is dead..

Appreciate the advice. I would argue that Tyranitar is the glue of the team really. You don't know how important it is to the team and what it's capable of doing.. it can basically solid-counter all weather makers except for physical Abomasnow ( which OHKO's with Wooden Hammer :( ), and the ability to trap Lati@s is way too useful. The idea isn't abusing sandstorm and it never was, it's just there to negate other weather effects and give them a hard time. It basically can never die against Politoed or Ninetales if it's in the storm, sadly though some Sunny Day Ninetales can give me a hard time but it can still take on SolarBeams all day (I believe he's 3HKO'd by it) but then I can't really OHKO Ninetales with anything.. but by the time Ninetales uses Sunny Day it would be a good time to switch anyway.

Scizor and/or Mamoswine will leave a HUGE weakness to Conkeldurr. I've considered Scizor before (see: very last sentence in the OP :P) and I've come to the conclusion that Conkeldurr was better simply because it can take down opposing Conkeldurrs easily. Mamoswine will also give Conk another opportunity to rip my team apart.

Your Icy Wind suggestion on Keldeo is golden though, really appreciate that. I would have never even looked at it before you pointed it out.. hell, I even used to think it's not really viable in competitive Pokemon, obviously I was very wrong.

Anyway, I realized my team's also just a little bit weak to Gliscor with Toxic as it can give Mew a hard time with Toxic/Protect/Sub/EQ but it can be dealt with if played correctly.

I also realized that I'm a bit weak to Conkeldurr also. I can never OHKO or even 2HKO with Outrage and it can simply Drain Punch my team to death, while taking on Latias and reteliating with Payback. I'm trying to think of ways to fix this.
 
Edited the thread with the new changes, also added sample battles using my team. Garchomp is pretty awesome and game-winning material if played right.

Sun isn't a problem because Tyranitar + Latias can stop Ninetales/Venusaur pretty hard. Latias can take on Venusaur all day and OHKO with HP Fire in the sun, while Tyranitar pretty much laughs at Ninetales and takes the opportunity to set-up Stealth Rock safely on the switch. The only real problem are Dugtrio and Gliscor, but the latter can be dealt with using mew, while the former can be a bit problematic especially since it can kill Tyranitar clean. But I have no problem staying in the sun.
 
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Really good team i like to use a sleep talk scarf chomp to counter loom with eq fb and outrage but that's personal preference :)
 
bump? still having some issues with lando-t and gliscor (and sometimes jelli). my mew can handle gliscor to an extent but substall gliscor is a PAIN IN THE ARSE. :( and if it has SD then gg, only Keldeo can deal with it.
 
There isn't really much I can see to help your team honestly, it's really good. Mew should be able to, if it's in before Gliscor, OHKO it with an Ice Beam easily, and if most outspeed you I would suggest moving a tad few more EVs to your Speed on it. Landorus-T is a bit tricky, but fairly predictable. Jellicent, just pound on it with Keldeo as you would do or even have Ferrothorn get on it. Leech Seed isn't something to sneeze at for Jellicent. Otherwise, I can't honestly think of anything :/

If you can get your SR out before a Gliscor comes in, Icy Wind should OHKO it also or at the least slow it enough to stop it from outspeeding other useful pokemon.
 
There isn't really much I can see to help your team honestly, it's really good. Mew should be able to, if it's in before Gliscor, OHKO it with an Ice Beam easily, and if most outspeed you I would suggest moving a tad few more EVs to your Speed on it. Landorus-T is a bit tricky, but fairly predictable. Jellicent, just pound on it with Keldeo as you would do or even have Ferrothorn get on it. Leech Seed isn't something to sneeze at for Jellicent. Otherwise, I can't honestly think of anything :/

If you can get your SR out before a Gliscor comes in, Icy Wind should OHKO it also or at the least slow it enough to stop it from outspeeding other useful pokemon.

Heh, you're right.. I don't know how I never thought of changing Mew's EV spread..

I made my spread powerful enough to OHKO both Lando-T and Gliscor (it sometimes didn't OHKO Lando-T but it's fixed now.) and quick enough to outspeed regular SubTox (and most variants except 252 Spe) Gliscor by 1 point :p

The spread is 220 HP / 164 Def / 36 SpA / 88 Spe Timid. I'll add it to the OP.
 
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