I reckon that Snorlax, Chansey and maybe Exeggutor deserve S rank cause they (particularily the first two) are on Tauros level without a doubt. Maybe golem/rhydon for A rank? They are the only things that take normal type attacks really well and wall electrics aside from raichu with surf. Speaking of raichu, it should be C or D rank as it OHKO's the rock/grounds at the expense of hitting Exeggutor hard and a lower special.
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OU RBY OU Viability Ranking (2013 to 2016)
- Thread starter Princess Bubblegum
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I had thought the same about S tier myself when this list was first being made. Tauros + Egg are pretty much mandatory on every team, and depending on who you ask, so are Chansey and Snorlax. That said, it's perfectly fine and probably preferable to put Tauros on a pedestal. He can pull wins out of his 3-whip-tailed ass, and Tauros wars are basically forced in just about every game because there's really nothing safer than to ensure mutually crippled bulls. The other 1-3 mandatory mons aren't quite that ridiculously strong.
I've topped the ladder with my non-Tauros team before. He's good, extremely good, but he's not a cut above the other 3. Snorlax has a higher floor than Tauros (standard Snorlax will ALWAYS at least trade unless your opponent pulls miracle predictions) and is more versatile, Chansey walls 2-4 members of most teams and practically defines the meta. Egg... well, really, the issue with Egg is that either you're using a B-list Pokemon, you're using Egg, or you're playing 5-6. Hence, it's an automatic entry on most teams because there simply aren't any other good Pokemon with reliable sleep moves.
The "standard" RBY team is Tauros, Chansey, Snorlax, Exeggutor, and 2 others of choice (the canonical version having Golem/Rhydon in one slot and Alakazam/Starmie in the other). So those four do belong together in S rank.
Raichu's a solid D rank, yeah. I'd certainly use Raichu before I'd use Venusaur. It's crap, but it's unique crap.
The "standard" RBY team is Tauros, Chansey, Snorlax, Exeggutor, and 2 others of choice (the canonical version having Golem/Rhydon in one slot and Alakazam/Starmie in the other). So those four do belong together in S rank.
Raichu's a solid D rank, yeah. I'd certainly use Raichu before I'd use Venusaur. It's crap, but it's unique crap.
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I mean, I think there's one serious team I've run that didn't use Egg as a sleeper - it was running a Jynx lead and Sing Chansey IIRC. And I still had Egg on that team, I was just running its Leech Seed/Rest set and didn't have room for Sleep Powder.
Well egg still competes with bel on wrap teams for the grass slot. They do different things, but people think they compete for the same spot because they're both grass types. Tauros isn't completely necessary but he's S tier because no one is better at his role and his role is very important. I think lax is S tier too because nothing else can fill the role he does, because he does so many roles in one and he's so versatile.
Magic- I'd definitely use saur over chu any day. The main reason why saur gets no usage is that its outclassed by bel, and thats an uncommon pick to begin with. Saur still outspeeds eggy for sleep, outspeeds cloy and has an amazing offensive move. I'm pretty sure it survives blizz-hbeam from tauros most of the time too. Raichu has nothing going for it over other electric types except surf, which is made redundant by the fact that it still has a ton of other counters in OU, so a ground will never have to eat a surf anyway. The only way you're ever going to surf a ground is if you let chu get paralysed then try surf on the switch, which is of course incredibly risky.
Magic- I'd definitely use saur over chu any day. The main reason why saur gets no usage is that its outclassed by bel, and thats an uncommon pick to begin with. Saur still outspeeds eggy for sleep, outspeeds cloy and has an amazing offensive move. I'm pretty sure it survives blizz-hbeam from tauros most of the time too. Raichu has nothing going for it over other electric types except surf, which is made redundant by the fact that it still has a ton of other counters in OU, so a ground will never have to eat a surf anyway. The only way you're ever going to surf a ground is if you let chu get paralysed then try surf on the switch, which is of course incredibly risky.
That's my point. I would use Raichu before I'd use Venusaur because there's an actual reason to use Raichu (STAB Thunderbolt + Surf), and there's no reason to use Venusaur.
I would use Venusaur before I'd use Raichu because there's an actual reason to use Venusaur (Razor Leaf + faster Sleep Powder than Eggy/Vic), and there's no reason to use Raichu. Surf is a cool Ground deterrent, too bad it just gets walled by Eggy instead and does shitty neutral damage anyway with its piddly 278 Special.
But Victreebel also has Razor Leaf, is better than Venusaur at Venusaur's one set (Swords Dance), and also has another set (Stun Spore + Wrap), while the Speed difference doesn't matter since crits don't stack with Swords Dance, both of them have maxed-out crit rates on Razor Leaf, and there's fuck-all that is in that Speed range (Cloyster and Dragonite; Dragonite doesn't matter since a slow Stun Spore is better than a speed tie and no Stun Spore).
Also Raichu has SToss which 4HKOs Egg before Egg can 3HKO back with Psychic if Egg switches in to counter it. Zam and Chansey are bigger issues (sure, Submission does 40%, but the recoil damage is a 4-5HKO by itself).
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If you're going to use Victreebel there's no reason not to use Eggy. They have so many differences (Eggy has Psychic resistance, Ground resistance, Explosion, STAB Psychic...) that the cross-over is pretty minor.
It's hilarious watching a pokemon KO itself trying to Submission Chansey to death.
As for S rank, Tauros, Eggy Snorlax and Chansey are all top rank. I see no reason why Tauros would be a rank ahead of the others.
The main issues are sleeper glut and stacking Ice weaknesses. More than one non-lead sleeper's overkill, and too many Ice weaknesses on a team puts you on the back foot a lot. It's compounded by the fact that both Victreebel and Exeggutor get devastated by Zapdos, so you'll usually be running a Rock which is a third Ice weakness.
Running Jolteon (which covers Zapdos AND most of the Blizzard users) would probably work, I guess.
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I think that Gengar should drop to C rank. Honestly, Gengar really doesn't do that much. It's only niche is that it is the fastest sleeper. It unfortunately has a weakness's to psychic and ground which are common (Especially psychic >.>) I just feel like the C rank definition fits it a bit better than B as besides being able to put something to sleep, it doesn't really do that much.
Na. The game as she's played gives Gengar multiple opportunities to do work: fast Sleep, Exploding on Chansey/Tauros, catching Explosions, walling off-beat threats like Persian, wearing down counters with Night Shade, and checking non-Jynx Blizzarders with Tbolt are all things it has going for it. The main issue is that to get the most out of it, you have to make some pretty high-risk plays.
Psychic isn't as common as you'd think. Starmie and Slowbro rarely use it precisely because the type is so common, so you're mainly going to see it from Alakazam and Exeggutor. Gengar outspeeds Exeggutor and 4HKOs it with Night Shade, so it isn't a very durable counter; Alakazam can withstand all of Gengar's special moves but risks OHKO from Explosion. Golem and Rhydon can OHKO Gengar, but are 2HKOed by Mega Drain, so they aren't true counters either. (Gengar usually won't have both moves, but you can't know what it will and won't have in advance.)
Meanwhile, Gengar can take attacks from almost anything that isn't using Ground or Psychic moves (almost all other physical moves are Normal type and thus have no effect, and Gengar's incredible 358 Special allows it to shrug off most special moves) so it can force a lot of switches. Even STAB Blizzards struggle to 3HKO Gengar, and Gengar 2HKOs or 3HKOs most of the STAB Blizzard users with Thunderbolt. It's even a decent check to Surf Slowbro with its high crit rate.
Gengar is also immune to Explosion, which turns it into a true wall for Cloyster as well as forcing opponents to play high-risk mindgames if they want to get an Explosion off from Golem/Exeggutor/Snorlax. Explosions are a huge part of RBY, and the potential to nullify them is equally huge. Its Normal immunity also allows it to shrug off Wrap; in particular, Night Shade Gengar is the only thing that reliably defeats a +2 Surf Dragonite.
And then there's Hypnosis, which is always nice.
Gengar's certainly a strange Pokemon, and very dependent on finesse plays to accomplish much, but it's as solid as Jynx/Lapras/Zapdos IMO. There's certainly a reason it's not one of the Seven Staples, but it's one of the strongest contenders for a position if you're using a non-Staple.
I don't really like how gengar's main selling point is considered to be that it's the fastest sleeper in the game. I feel like the meta has evolved to the point where the sleep war is more about what gets slept rather than sleeping something first.
I think that its real selling point is that it walls dragonite, who in certain circumstances has no other true counters. It also walls like every niche threat in the game, so if you run it there's always a chance it'll hard wall something on the opposing team.
I think that its real selling point is that it walls dragonite, who in certain circumstances has no other true counters. It also walls like every niche threat in the game, so if you run it there's always a chance it'll hard wall something on the opposing team.
Right. It's not. It is one of its selling points, but not the biggest.
I'm a total novice to competitive Pokemon, but I'm old enough to have seriously played RBY in real life when the games first came out, and I'll say this -- me and all my friends quickly realized we had to ban Tauros, Chansey, Snorlax, Exeggutor, Alakazam and Gengar because if we didn't, that's the only team anyone would ever use (Mewtwo being obviously banned, and Mew being unavailable at the time).
Arguments can be made against Alakazam and Gengar being on that list, but using modern Smogon terminology, I'd say they're Borderline between Uber and OU, with Tauros, Chansey, Snorlax and Exeggutor being clearly Uber.
Arguments can be made against Alakazam and Gengar being on that list, but using modern Smogon terminology, I'd say they're Borderline between Uber and OU, with Tauros, Chansey, Snorlax and Exeggutor being clearly Uber.
They are completely balanced, it just happens that RBY has very few viable mons. If you wanna play with your friends with more diversity, then of course those would surely be what you should aim for banning (maybe not gengar), but competitively speaking, they are just the top OU. Mewtwo is on a whole different level and is a true definition of Uber.
Tauros, Egg, Chansey and Snorlax are seen on almost all competitive teams, especially the former two. However if you let them go, other mons just become centralizing instead. No Chansey? Starmie rules the day. No Egg? Rhydon has a field day. No Snorlax or Tauros? Suddenly the best physical mons are gone, so you can get away even easier with overloading special tanks.
There was a non-Normal RBY mini-tour around here a while back (when we still had mini-tours, maybe we should try firing those up again, but with fewer gimmicks that nobody takes seriously enough to finish). That accomplished most of the important bans (Snorlax, Chansey, Tauros) discussed above. IIRC it was mostly Starmie, Zam, and Wrap spam, suggesting that you'd need a LOT of bans to get anywhere close to decentralizing RBY, more than is worth it.
Still, the top 6 in the OP are clearly a cut above the rest. I think it'd be interesting to play RBY without S and A rank.
Still, the top 6 in the OP are clearly a cut above the rest. I think it'd be interesting to play RBY without S and A rank.
Seconded. Who else is up for a non-staple tournament?
Cloy and Dnite still need to go up to B, Raichu to D, and dump the useless E rank (and Venusaur). Probably also Kangaskhan to C, it's competitive with Persian. The descriptions could use some work too.
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RIP bubblegum :( Somebody else can totally run the thread if discussion's gonna revive, tho.
I dunno about the Wrappers moving up, they're kinda awkwardly placed in either C or B. I'd call them C+ mons. Tier descriptions definitely don't really help break the tie, either, they seem to just be wordy ways of saying "best/better/good".
Raichu is pretty bad. Nice coverage, but the power behind its moves is just so disappointing. I'd sooner take Flareon in D tier than Raichu.
I dunno about the Wrappers moving up, they're kinda awkwardly placed in either C or B. I'd call them C+ mons. Tier descriptions definitely don't really help break the tie, either, they seem to just be wordy ways of saying "best/better/good".
Raichu is pretty bad. Nice coverage, but the power behind its moves is just so disappointing. I'd sooner take Flareon in D tier than Raichu.
I can edit things in the list if there is a somewhat general consensus in the changes, if that's all it takes to "run" the thread. If someone could give me a quick recap of what happened i will fix it in no time.
Don't listen to anything magic9mushroom says. Also consider correctly spelling "Hypno."
Raichu really is worthless. Its only perk is that it's an Electric that isn't walled by Goldon, except it both hits and takes hits like a wet noodle so it doesn't scare anything else anyway. Zapdos is good precisely because it's very threatening to everything except Goldon, whereas Raichu is equally worthless because the price it pays for getting around them is that it threatens absolutely nothing else.
Raichu really is worthless. Its only perk is that it's an Electric that isn't walled by Goldon, except it both hits and takes hits like a wet noodle so it doesn't scare anything else anyway. Zapdos is good precisely because it's very threatening to everything except Goldon, whereas Raichu is equally worthless because the price it pays for getting around them is that it threatens absolutely nothing else.
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