Gen 2 GSC Viability Ranking (OU)

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From my little GSC experience (which means around 30-40 matches in total) I would say Tauros is worth C ranking. It outspeeds Most of the meta (espesially Zapdos) and only has problems with Forretress, Misdreavus and Skarmory. If Im correct It is the second fastest SleepTalker after Raikou, and EQ+Double edge/Body slam is only resisted by Skarmory and Misdreavus in tier(?) and hits kinda hard from 298 atk. It needs support to take down some stuff, but it can do its job quite effective if given that support.
C-Rank
(These Pokemon usually need more support to be effective. They are often inferior to the higher-ranked Pokemon but have one or two advantages that give them a niche with proper team-support.)

Sounds like an C-rank to me.
Kangaskhan's way better than Tauros (bulkier, gets Roar) and is C-rank. Speed isn't great on a physical in GSC because all the physicals use Curse anyway; bulk is more important, and Tauros' bulk is garbage; it's 3HKOed by everything and 2HKOed by Thunder Electrics. It can't run RestTalk because it's not bulky enough, and a straight attacking set is shit because it's got walls.
Encore is a cool move and while you can't just park an Alakazam in front of 'Lax and not expect to eat STAB, it's at least forcing your opponent to play around the possibility (they're unlikely to boost as you switch out and less likely in general, since the Encorer automatically forces a switch if it comes in on any non-damaging move) and also stops a few other things, most notably as a good alternative to pseudohazing for countering trappers. It makes recovery more difficult and makes it fairly easy to force setup opportunities, whether you Encore a non-damaging move or an attack you can switch resistance in against. (On that note, Zam > Vaporeon too.) Too bad it's so poorly distributed but it is at least Alakazam's saving grace.
Switching Encore users into CurseLax ain't a great idea. It may last only two turns (the turn you use it, and the turn you switch out) meaning you've just given Snorlax an extra 2 Curses to hammer your phazer or Growler. Skarm don't like dem +3 DEs, and Miltank dies outright coming in on +3 CurseLax (+2 Return + +1 Return is likely to KO; DE guarantees it). It is a good answer to Missy though.
 
speed is actually quite important in gsc. stuff like zapdos/raikou/gengar/starmie/miltank play completely different because they're quicker than the competition. kanga outspeeds lax at -1 which is pretty cool. i think tauros outspeeds marowak at -1. but regardless, if you run kanga, you're doing one set: roar, sub, return, curse. no other poke can do it.

you don't switch out. if snorlax curses, you encore it. then you scratch your balls for a while and wait for/predict him to switch out. encore 8 pp, curse 16 pp. pp is always a factor when you consider encore. switching "encore" users into curselax is a bad idea because encore users are zam, clefable, jumpluff, raichu, and donphan (not counting stuff like primeape) aka you dont switch that shit into snorlax because you take 50%+ from regular de.
 

Bedschibaer

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Tauros/Miltank, Cloyster, Zapdos, Gengar, Machamp and Marowak/Drumlax. kinda works, but it is far from recommended
That's not what i would call Hyper Offense, but simply an offensive team full of goodstuffs (and Tauros/Miltank). Hyper offense by it's todays definition only really exists in newer gens, that's why i was confused. But playstyles is not up for discussion now, so let's just end this here.

When saying speed isn't the most important stat in gsc i didn't mean it's irrelevant. Speed is important, and there are things like the one you mentioned that are good mostly because of their speed tier. The fact that the most used mon is also the slowest one in the tier and that the best and most used boosting move cuts your speed does make it not the most important stat, especially compared to other gens, making offense not reliant on speed entirely, like it is in newer gens. Also the general speed level in the tier is way lower than in all others. Tauros is a decent mon, no question. If it deserves D rank? probably. but putting it in C rank with kanga just doesn't feel right, since kanga has an actual niche by being the only curse/roar/sub mon.
 
That's not what i would call Hyper Offense, but simply an offensive team full of goodstuffs (and Tauros/Miltank). Hyper offense by it's todays definition only really exists in newer gens, that's why i was confused. But playstyles is not up for discussion now, so let's just end this here.

When saying speed isn't the most important stat in gsc i didn't mean it's irrelevant. Speed is important, and there are things like the one you mentioned that are good mostly because of their speed tier. The fact that the most used mon is also the slowest one in the tier and that the best and most used boosting move cuts your speed does make it not the most important stat, especially compared to other gens, making offense not reliant on speed entirely, like it is in newer gens. Also the general speed level in the tier is way lower than in all others. Tauros is a decent mon, no question. If it deserves D rank? probably. but putting it in C rank with kanga just doesn't feel right, since kanga has an actual niche by being the only curse/roar/sub mon.
I guess you're right.
 
the average speed being lower is completely irrelevant. think about it.

speed is just as important as it counts for both offense and defense. i'd argue that in quite a few cases it's the most important stat (e.g. starmie). stuff like dragonite would happily give up any stat for 10-20 speed. steelix would probably trade anything for 10 speed.
 
speed is actually quite important in gsc. stuff like zapdos/raikou/gengar/starmie/miltank play completely different because they're quicker than the competition. kanga outspeeds lax at -1 which is pretty cool. i think tauros outspeeds marowak at -1. but regardless, if you run kanga, you're doing one set: roar, sub, return, curse. no other poke can do it.

you don't switch out. if snorlax curses, you encore it. then you scratch your balls for a while and wait for/predict him to switch out. encore 8 pp, curse 16 pp. pp is always a factor when you consider encore. switching "encore" users into curselax is a bad idea because encore users are zam, clefable, jumpluff, raichu, and donphan (not counting stuff like primeape) aka you dont switch that shit into snorlax because you take 50%+ from regular de.
Is there a warning to the Encore user when Encore ends?
 

Jorgen

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Okay, so I agree that Heracross feels a little awkward in B and that Dragonite feels really awkward in C. I moved Dnite to B for now (going with what my gut initially told me for this list), but kept Hera in B. I just can't feel myself moving it, even if it is a lot worse in practice than on paper.

For now, I also added Tauros to D.

I still am not 100% sure what to do with D. I'm considering just opening the floodgates now, to be honest, because my quest for consistency with other lists is leading too many good gimmicks off the list, and I figure why not have that information here?

S and A are perfectly fine at the moment, but the lower tiers (B-D) as a whole definitely feel like they need a bit of an overhaul. Doesn't seem to work all that well intuitively (especially with B smaller than A, which I feel goes against an intuitive "pyramid" structure of viability), and part of that might be because we're trying to feel our way into appropriate tierings with the bare descriptions I gave instead of going by more detailed criteria. I'll see if I can't reword tier definitions by tonight (input is welcome of course!)
 
Okay, so I agree that Heracross feels a little awkward in B and that Dragonite feels really awkward in C. I moved Dnite to B for now (going with what my gut initially told me for this list), but kept Hera in B. I just can't feel myself moving it, even if it is a lot worse in practice than on paper.

For now, I also added Tauros to D.

I still am not 100% sure what to do with D. I'm considering just opening the floodgates now, to be honest, because my quest for consistency with other lists is leading too many good gimmicks off the list, and I figure why not have that information here?

S and A are perfectly fine at the moment, but the lower tiers (B-D) as a whole definitely feel like they need a bit of an overhaul. Doesn't seem to work all that well intuitively, and part of that might be because we're trying to feel our way into appropriate tierings with the bare descriptions I gave instead of going by more detailed criteria. I'll see if I can't reword tier definitions by tonight (input is welcome of course!)
One thing that can help is dividing the tiers into separate parts like B+ and B- is B tier. It would also help because then stuff thats high B tier and low B tier won't be seen as just as good as each other.
 
Piloswine is overlooked. It might be worthy of a D or maybe C rank, but I'm not sure. You'd be surprised how difficult it is to switch into, and in this meta, where HP Ice is on 9 out of every 10 electrics, he can consistently get in for cheap and hit things hard and potentially be a problem for some teams. Most Nido and Gengars do not use fire. Being a problem for Nidoking is very nice. It's like a crappy Steelix (but notably harder to switch into).

I think Blissey and Missy deserve A-rank, personally. People don't spam games with them cause they are kinda lame and not that fun for anyone but in tournament games they tend to show up not too uncommonly. If you look at this list of viable threats outside of Lax the physical side is so pathetic...it's like only explosion lol. Maybe that's enough, but I still feel like simply having a blissey on your team and managing to kill Lax can be instant game over in many many cases. Just my two cents.
 
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Judging pokemon lower tiers is very difficult, given the absurd amount of near useless pokemon, when compared to a common tier list in a fighting game. Expect the lower tiers to move around A LOT.

^Yea pilo was ok and would deserve a spot back then, not sure if he's good enough now. I think magneton and articuno deserve D tier spots.

I think someone said snorlax should be in his own tier and I agree - SS? I'd also put skarmory in league with zapdos and raikou but that's me.

I like this, it's more useful than the typical OU BL UU stuff because he gives noobs a better idea of what they need to have and expect.
 

Typhlito

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I dont know about articuno. Snorlax can set up on cuno fairly easily so all it can really do to snorlax is roar it away. It cant really harm suicune either. Seeing how common they are, that would make it difficult to use effectively.

Not sure if its list worthy (altho I honestly think it should be) but typhlosion is a pretty decent sun abuser. Fire blast under the sun can take chunks out of its walls not named blissy. It also has dynamic punch to hit ttar and blissey 2hkoing both (with spikes for blissey) assuming they hit. While the move isnt that reliable since he doesnt get sub this gen, the confusion hax is nice. It has thunder punch which charizard lacks (but charizard does get D punch as well, not that it would or should use it) but it doesnt do as much damage as one hopes. I wouldnt put it ahead of charizard or even houndoom (to a lesser extent) though because of Dynamic punches the bad accuracy. It would probably be better near the C/D Rank (but still C) line. Still, fire blast + dynamic punch is a pretty nice combo imo.

Everything else looks good to me besides maybe having jynx and jumpluff switch places. Jynx can do some good damage while making its checks fall asleep while jumpluff is more or less nothing more than a (really annoying) annoyer.
 
I think someone said snorlax should be in his own tier and I agree - SS? I'd also put skarmory in league with zapdos and raikou but that's me.
Stops non-Fire Lax and Wak, certainly, and that's pretty big. Stops Egg if it's not running HP Fire. Beats Machamp straight-up, but doesn't do that well switching into CurseChamp. Stops Hera most of the time but EndRev is a bitch. And I guess it makes Quag cry but who uses that? As an offensive phazer alongside Spikes it's not that effective since it doesn't really scare anything out (besides Machamp and Hera) and Zapdos completely trolls it. As a defensive phazer it's somewhat effective as I noted, but its high Speed and lack of offense mean that any physical with Curse/Roar gets past it anyway, and its giant weakness to Electric means that a lot of the trappers and passers can just run Thunder or Thunderbolt and not care about it. On direct offense it's totally worthless since the Electrics wall it literally forever, and its support movepool consists of Thief (which is nice, but only works once) and Toxic (which literally everything gets).

I mean, it's certainly good, but it's not on the level of Raikou, Snorlax and Zapdos, all of which can actually threaten things as well as walling them.
 
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I don't think a poke should have to have offensive capabilities to be top tier, as long as it's defensive capabilities are far ahead from the rest of the pack. While your point about it being near useless on offensive based teams is very true, people building a stalling or defensive team will most likely keep the bird in reserve for pretty much the things you pointed out and a bit more. The reason being that it shuts physical pokemon so much better than any other phazer. Steelix doesn't come close in this regard.

The difference between where we think skarmory should place on tiers is more biased towards our styles of play, assuming your offensive and I'm more defensive. Hypothetically lol, if somehow someone had to win a pokemon battle in order to live and you had no information on except that he also knew how to play, I'd expect both players to build defensive teams that have skarmory, raikou/zapdos, and snorlax as staples. I feel skarm places quite higher above others in its tier like steelix, vaporeon, nidoking, suicunce, and miltank than it does below the big three currently up there. That should at least earn it top tier consideration.
 

Jorgen

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If you don't assume that there is necessarily a trade-off, it's objectively better to be good on both offense and defense. This is especially true in GSC, a gen that allows the best mons to be incredible at both and therefore isn't terribly kind to Pokemon that overspecialize. You'd have to be really good on defense to be on par with mons that defend and attack as well as the current S-tier mons. While Skarm is great, the subset of important Pokemon it walls isn't larger that that walled by Adipose and the Legends Electric, and it's a much less effective attacker. Skarm's a definite step below and belongs in A-rank.
 
I don't think a poke should have to have offensive capabilities to be top tier, as long as it's defensive capabilities are far ahead from the rest of the pack. While your point about it being near useless on offensive based teams is very true, people building a stalling or defensive team will most likely keep the bird in reserve for pretty much the things you pointed out and a bit more. The reason being that it shuts physical pokemon so much better than any other phazer. Steelix doesn't come close in this regard.

The difference between where we think skarmory should place on tiers is more biased towards our styles of play, assuming your offensive and I'm more defensive. Hypothetically lol, if somehow someone had to win a pokemon battle in order to live and you had no information on except that he also knew how to play, I'd expect both players to build defensive teams that have skarmory, raikou/zapdos, and snorlax as staples. I feel skarm places quite higher above others in its tier like steelix, vaporeon, nidoking, suicunce, and miltank than it does below the big three currently up there. That should at least earn it top tier consideration.
Skarm's a great wall, indeed, but it's not much better than Raikou, Snorlax, and Zapdos, all of which can switch in on not only just about any defensive Pokemon but even some offensive ones (The Electrics can take on Egg decently; Raikou walls Gengar; Lax switches into Nidoking pretty well; Zapdos walls most Steelix; all three can come in on Vaporeon to some extent; Zapdos walls Heracross - and obviously there's also the dynamic of Raikou walling Zapdos and Snorlax countering both Electrics). And all three have serious offensive potential - Raikou/Zapdos basically have no counters besides Raikou itself and Snorlax, and even Snorlax doesn't like Thunders, while Snorlax is so potent that most teams devote two whole slots to stopping it.

Almost any stall team is going to have Snorlax, an Electric, and Skarmory, that's certainly true. An offensive team won't have Skarmory, but they'll still have Snorlax and an Electric. They fulfill vital roles on every team, no matter its bent; that's a claim Skarmory can't make.

And no, I'm not really an offensive player. Most of my experience has been with stall teams. So let's just stick with defensive Pokemon for a moment; is Skarmory much better than Miltank? They both wall Lax to some extent; Skarmory loses to Fire Blast/Thunder, while Miltank loses to Belly Drum/Substitute, but otherwise neither really cares. Miltank walls every other Curser except Kangaskhan; Skarmory cannot stop any Curser with Roar since they're all slower than it after Curse. Skarmory stops Marowak, which Miltank can't. Neither's very good against Machamp, but Skarm's better. Miltank stops Nidoking once Sleep Clause is on; Skarm dies horribly. Skarm can stop Quag, and Espeon and Clefable to some extent; Miltank's shredded by all of them. Miltank is better against Porygon2, which can zap Skarm. They probably even out against Heracross; Skarm cares less about Megahorn and scares it out, but Miltank outspeeds it which can be absolutely crucial in the case of EndRev. Overall I'd say Skarm's role's slightly more important, but it's not always available to fulfill that role because it uses Rest and usually not Sleep Talk, while Miltank's always available. Then you've got support roles. Skarm is a phazer, which is certainly important; you need that to not auto-lose to Missy or Umby. But there's quite a few good phazers, and Skarm does have the unfortunate drawback of being 2HKOed by almost all Thunders and Fire Blasts - even non-STAB - so it isn't always enough by itself. Miltank's a Beller, and easily the best one. Heal Bell isn't just a handy defensive tool to remove status or Rest turns from walls; it also enables the faster re-use of DrumLax and DrumQuag, which can otherwise be dead weight. It's also a decent status spreader with Body Slam, whereas Skarm doesn't have anything besides Toxic and has to give up Curse to get even that.

Can you really, from the bottom of your heart, say that Skarmory is that big a cut above Miltank? I think it's closer in power to Miltank than it is to Zapdos.
 
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Cumquat

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I agree with the post someone a few posts above made, Pokemon aren't judged solely on their offensive capabilities. Just look at Blissey.
 
I agree with the post someone a few posts above made, Pokemon aren't judged solely on their offensive capabilities. Just look at Blissey.
Blissey isnt S tier though. Or even A tier. Thats kind of the whole point of the argument. In no way will it ever be a better mon than Kou or Lax because by using it you're making a slot on your team completely useless in terms of offense. Obviously it has merits over the other mons otherwise it wouldn't be viable at all, but not having offensive capabilities is inherently a bad thing and makes it inferior to those mons that perform excellently at both executing and offense and maintaining a defensive presence. Those mons can do so much more for you.
 

Cumquat

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Blissey isnt S tier though. Or even A tier. Thats kind of the whole point of the argument. In no way will it ever be a better mon than Kou or Lax because by using it you're making a slot on your team completely useless in terms of offense. Obviously it has merits over the other mons otherwise it wouldn't be viable at all, but not having offensive capabilities is inherently a bad thing and makes it inferior to those mons that perform excellently at both executing and offense and maintaining a defensive presence. Those mons can do so much more for you.
Well then, it's a good thing that in Pokemon we don't rank them by "S-tier" or "A-tier", but by usage. And by usage, Blissey ranks above a lot of other Pokemon that may be considered S or A-tier. That itself is a testament to its quality.
 

Bedschibaer

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I don't have the current usage stats in my head but i don't see many blisseys lately. Snorlax just keeps Blissey usage low. And blissey above any S rank pokemon in usage? never. Same for big parts of the A rank.
 
Well then, it's a good thing that in Pokemon we don't rank them by "S-tier" or "A-tier", but by usage. And by usage, Blissey ranks above a lot of other Pokemon that may be considered S or A-tier. That itself is a testament to its quality.
Yeah, um, I don't know what to say to this lol. We're ranking them by S tier/A tier etc in this thread right here. That's why the thread exists. As for Blissey usage being higher than S tier mons... ummm... rofl? It's never even been close. Blissey usage is eclipsed by those mons. Its barely even top 20 which is pretty shitty when theres only 24 mons in OU. The other things it has to compete with (as much as you compete for team slots in GSC) are by comparison #1 / #2 by usage.
 
Well then, it's a good thing that in Pokemon we don't rank them by "S-tier" or "A-tier", but by usage. And by usage, Blissey ranks above a lot of other Pokemon that may be considered S or A-tier. That itself is a testament to its quality.
Usage =/= not viability. If that was the case Donphan would have still been OU in generation 6. Just because something has usage doesn't mean it's viable. Also by that logic you might as well not have any viability ranking because you can just look up the usage statistics. Yes it is true that better pokemon see more usage but just because Hypno gets more usage than Rhydon doesn't mean Hypno is better than Rhydon.
 
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