Espeon bounces the Taunt and can start boosting. Using Thunderbolt on the predicted switch will hurt it though, and knock off will OHKO without boosts. Taunt Thundurus is probably the only meta-viable Pokemon that has the distinct advantage against a good BP implementation, but that's just one Pokemon and Thundurus is otherwise more effective without Taunt since after T-Wave, T-Bolt, and HP Ice, the overall better options for the fourth slot would be Superpower, Focus Blast, Knock Off, Psychic or Nasty Plot.
-
Welcome to Smogon! Take a moment to read the Introduction to Smogon for a run-down on everything Smogon, and make sure you take some time to read the global rules.
XY OU Suspect Process, Round 3 - BATON PASS [READ POST #590]
- Thread starter haunter
- Start date
- Status
Espeon bounces the Taunt and can start boosting. Using Thunderbolt on the predicted switch will hurt it though, and knock off will OHKO without boosts. Taunt Thundurus is probably the only meta-viable Pokemon that has the distinct advantage against a good BP implementation, but that's just one Pokemon and Thundurus is otherwise more effective without Taunt since after T-Wave, T-Bolt, and HP Ice, the overall better options for the fourth slot would be Superpower, Focus Blast, Knock Off, Psychic or Nasty Plot.
I definitely recommend people have a look over this thread, especially the replays in the Threat List section. There are quite a few replays showing how a Baton Pass team can still get around commonly mentioned counters like Prankster Taunt, Unaware Haze, Mega Pinsir and so on. These are all things that can help out but it's not that simple
I've found stallbreaker Gengar to be very effective against bp too. It can Taunt everything except Espeon, who dies to Shadow Ball. The only pokemon it has trouble to beat are Sylveon and Zapdos, and the first one still loses if it has Sludge Wave. With Substitute, Gengar overcomes the momentum advantage of the bp team and can use Taunt before switching, if that is necessary. With proper team support it can be a pain in the ass to beat for the bp team.
There are others too. Mega Gardevoir muders any bp team lacking Mr. Mime, and can still pull her weight against it if she has Taunt. Charizard Y is a nightmare to wall. Belly Drum Azumarill can quickly murder the team if it gets a boost at the right time. And I've even seem people carrying things with Clear Smog to beat bp, like Amoongus or Chandelure, so that's one thing stall can do too
And yet, Denisss bothered to put them on a threat list. And they way he wrote it shows how it requires a lot of prediction to win against some threats, and in the end, it boils down to player skill.
Like I'm saying for the 1000th time, there are no absolutes. Nothing can 100% win against bp, but a lot of things have a good chance against it.
No. Stored Power fucks you up WITHOUT the stat boosts.
Espeon says hi
Substitute. Scolli pretty much ALWAYS has Substitute
Lol Haze Quagsire. Only temporally stops the chain.
I think the only VIABLE user is Chandlelure. Even then lol Clear Smog
The fuck is this?
Edit: Wow, that's a shit move. Entirely depends on your opponents boosts. And it doesn't even make up for the Iron Defense boosts (It caps out too. Amazing,)
Ingrain Smeargle and Mr. Mime say hi.
SCOLLIPEDE SOAKS THIS SHIT UP
Again, only viable user is Chandelure. And he prefers Flash Fire
No viable users, sucks against EVERYTHING ELSE
You listed this already. Ain't happening.
Good luck using this move. It's shit.
Uh huh, explain how this works? Either has something Sashed. Which would make it useless due to predictability or just die because you're outsped
And they can just heal off the damage?
MAGIC BOUNCE
MAGIC BOUNCE
Works once
I'm not even going to fucking bother
As soon as they see the Aron they aren't gonna attack. So nice job on THAT one (Fucking F.E.A.R?)
Magic Bounce. It's shite anyway.
There. I have just proved that EVERY SINGLE SUGGESTION OF YOURS was shite. Oh and way to be hypocritical at he top there.
Oddly enough you never suggested Mold Breaker Taunt (Haxorus) but it doesn't really matter since that's gimmicky as all hell too. What I would suggest is finding the other BP thread and reading that. And you'll see why people are quoting you so much.
Last edited:
Going with Ninja Charizard, people need to stop assuming Baton Pass automatically wins against any team without taunt/NP thundurus and Quagsire. HO actually has a pretty good fighting chance against BP, especially with stuff like Mawile and Pinsir. That doesn't mean that BP pass isn't broken, as it's pretty much an auto-win against any stall team without haze Quagsire (which doesn't always ensure a win) and a lot of balanced teams. I'm going to chose option 2 if I get reqs, not because it's the best strategy in the game, but because it is nearly impossible to directly prepare for on stall outside of Quagsire, and can lock up a game simply if it has a good match-up. This makes the game less competitive and less about skill, and really it's just not ever fun to play against it.
Tell that to Volcarona, Charizard, Mega Pinsir, Talonflame and others who are weak/quad weak to Stealth Rock but still manage to be top tier threats.
A complex ban is needed tbh. Not quite sure which option I'll vote for when I get the reqs, but that's the point of suspect tests, right? I'm glad something is being done.
1.You probably would have lost had your opponent brought Mr. Mime, which is common on BP chains
2. Your team features multiple obscure counters to BP that have little use outside of accomplishing that goal (seriously, Politoed on a non rain team, that's like the epitome of obscure counter).
3. Many of your strategies to counter BP involve making correct predictions. Predictions are educated guesses. I don't care how good you think you are, you can't predict correctly every time so your argument proves nothing.
4. One of your arguments is so dumb that I won't even bother rebutting it this time. Instead, I'll just paraphrase it because I think its irrelevance to this thread and general stupidity are pretty obvious: "SR is more broken than BP so we shouldn't nerf BP."
Sorry if that's overly harsh but I'm sick of seeing these same weak arguments from you again, that last one I mentioned in particular.
Anyway, I seem to be in the minority here but I think option 3 may be the way to go.
3. Ban the combination of the move Baton Pass in conjunction with the ability Magic Bounce and the ability Speed Boost (complex ban).
I can see 3 pokes with BP still being broken. Hopefully I'll get to fight a decent number of these 3 BP teams on the ladder to better inform my opinion. I get why people don't want option 3, but if it makes BP chains less broken, I think being unable to use Baton Pass on Espeon is a small price to pay. Few people use it outside of chains anyway and Pursuit, while certainly used, isn't incredibly common in the OU environment. Anything is better than doing nothing at all.
YOU AGAIN?! You're posting the same crap you did in the discussion thread weeks ago and all of it was debunked there. I'm pretty sure that's even the same replay or at least a very similar so let me say once again:
1.You probably would have lost had your opponent brought Mr. Mime, which is common on BP chains
2. Your team features multiple obscure counters to BP that have little use outside of accomplishing that goal (seriously, Politoed on a non rain team, that's like the epitome of obscure counter).
3. Many of your strategies to counter BP involve making correct predictions. Predictions are educated guesses. I don't care how good you think you are, you can't predict correctly every time so your argument proves nothing.
4. One of your arguments is so dumb that I won't even bother rebutting it this time. Instead, I'll just paraphrase it because I think its irrelevance to this thread and general stupidity are pretty obvious: "SR is more broken than BP so we shouldn't nerf BP."
Sorry if that's overly harsh but I'm sick of seeing these same weak arguments from you again, that last one I mentioned in particular.
Anyway, I seem to be in the minority here but I think option 3 may be the way to go.
3. Ban the combination of the move Baton Pass in conjunction with the ability Magic Bounce and the ability Speed Boost (complex ban).
I can see 3 pokes with BP still being broken. Hopefully I'll get to fight a decent number of these 3 BP teams on the ladder to better inform my opinion. I get why people don't want option 3, but if it makes BP chains less broken, I think being unable to use Baton Pass on Espeon is a small price to pay. Few people use it outside of chains anyway and Pursuit, while certainly used, isn't incredibly common in the OU environment. Anything is better than doing nothing at all.
Last edited:
I just want to pitch an idea: if Option 3 does get chosen, can it be expanded to only limit Scolipede and/or Iron Defense to not completely kill off Ninjask? I know it's unnecessary to add more complexity to a potential ban just for the sake of some NU mon, but it would minimize collateral damage and still have SpeedPass be a niche without being as threatening.
The only good moves/abilities you mentioned that are commonly seen are Taunt, Roar, Whirlwind, Destiny Bond (sometimes), Prankster, and Unaware. The rest of those moves you mentioned are either worthless outside of countering BP, only work against BP sometimes, or don't even work against BP at all. If people resorted to crap like that, then their teams would be much less effective overall than if they ran their usual options. There are other playstyles you have to prepare for, and if you prepare for just one, then your team won't go very far.
I just learned how to use a baton pass team a couple months ago. I understand what people are coming from in that in terms of dealing with a full team, either you have/know a way to counter it, or your just sitting there waiting for your opponent to stop his BP chain and ohko all of your Pokemon. but that can be really fixed by knowing a lil bit more about BP teams and reading up how to beat it. If you haven't gave l faced one before your gonna be at a loss. But experienced and knowledged players cab predict the teams and beat them easily.
The one big reason why I think baton pass should stay how it isBecause of its usage. This team is SUCH A RARE STRATEGY to see people use. I've been playing ou since BW and im just know hearing about this strategy. Why nerf something that 1) can be easily beaten thru easy predictions (BP teams do the same thing for the 1st 6 to 9 turns all the time) and 2) is rarely to never used?
The one big reason why I think baton pass should stay how it isBecause of its usage. This team is SUCH A RARE STRATEGY to see people use. I've been playing ou since BW and im just know hearing about this strategy. Why nerf something that 1) can be easily beaten thru easy predictions (BP teams do the same thing for the 1st 6 to 9 turns all the time) and 2) is rarely to never used?
Option 2 is best option, fuck u bapong piss
If we leave this shit the way it is u give the bp users tge power (don't give them the power)
Also, Scoliped and Espeon are fine on their own. Talonflame fucks Scolipede and Espeon is frail as shit, they aren't broken on their own but do have their own little irritatin-as-shit niches. Scolipede is basically a buffed Ninjask. When's the last time you forfeit at the matchup b/c of a fukken Ninjask?
TL;DR - Option one is out of the question, option three is silly. Complex ban pls
If we leave this shit the way it is u give the bp users tge power (don't give them the power)
Also, Scoliped and Espeon are fine on their own. Talonflame fucks Scolipede and Espeon is frail as shit, they aren't broken on their own but do have their own little irritatin-as-shit niches. Scolipede is basically a buffed Ninjask. When's the last time you forfeit at the matchup b/c of a fukken Ninjask?
TL;DR - Option one is out of the question, option three is silly. Complex ban pls
I think it's safe to say that BP should be nerfed in the eyes of most, but with the way the voting will occur could potentially mean that BP stays. The people who want BP to stay have one place to vote, while those who want BP nerfed will be divided.
Even if the community wants it nerfed, BP could still remain legal. The voting should go: Yes or no to BP, and if the suspect testers agree to nerf BP, then the voting on how it gets nerfed should begin.
Even if the community wants it nerfed, BP could still remain legal. The voting should go: Yes or no to BP, and if the suspect testers agree to nerf BP, then the voting on how it gets nerfed should begin.
Last edited:
I'm pretty sure they will use a ranked vote so that will not happen.
Will edit once I get access to a computer.
Except that wasn't a BP team, that was simply a HO team that happened to have scolipede on it.
The point of the replay is to show how scolipede can turn something that would normally have a snowball's chance of sweeping(BPless Espeon) against a team with multiple hard stops to said sweeper (Bisharp, Greninja and M-Banette, all of whom can easily maul espeon) with a few misplays. It does not show that Scolipede is in itself OP, I will be working to prove that in future posts.
Baton Pass teams are manageable, and sometimes, quite easy to beat. How, you ask? With Thundurus. Thundurus is the biggest disruptor to a Baton Pass team. Either people don't see the need to run a mon to counter Baton Pass, or they just don't know about it. Thundurus isn't that used in the first place, what a shame.
| 45 | Thundurus | 4.42992% | 165713 | 3.250% | 135026 | 3.341% |
I usually lead off with Thundurus when I see a Baton Pass team. They'll be expecting a T-Wave or a Taunt and most likely go into Espeon. At this point you Nasty Plot and you'll be able to kill Espeon or force it to switch out, either killing the pokemon that their team is dependent on or severely damaging another. I haven't faced THAT many Baton Pass teams to know what kind of status moves they carry. At the worst, Thundurus will be put on a timer by Toxic.
| 45 | Thundurus | 4.42992% | 165713 | 3.250% | 135026 | 3.341% |
I usually lead off with Thundurus when I see a Baton Pass team. They'll be expecting a T-Wave or a Taunt and most likely go into Espeon. At this point you Nasty Plot and you'll be able to kill Espeon or force it to switch out, either killing the pokemon that their team is dependent on or severely damaging another. I haven't faced THAT many Baton Pass teams to know what kind of status moves they carry. At the worst, Thundurus will be put on a timer by Toxic.
I'm going to make my thoughts on the suspect quite clear. Simply, Baton Pass is a formulaic playstyle with little variance that allows less skilled players to beat more skilled ones. This is immediately a problem. Another problem is that it is incredibly difficult to beat without the use of niche Pokemon which have no use in other scenarios, or are very limiting. Therefore, there definitely needs to be something done to prevent this playstyle from being as dominant as it is, eliminating Option 1 as a choice for me if I voted. Option 2 seems the most logical in my opinion, as it restricts full Baton Pass teams to a point where it is possible to beaten by every playstyle without too much effort. I would also be fine with Option 3, even though I believe it is worth seeing the possible ways Baton Pass could manage under this proposition. It is most likely that given the chance to vote, I will choose Option 2.
I personally believe that option 3 is the way to go here, since it prevents BP from auto-winning against Stall. While Scolipede may suffer from not being able to quickpass (which one could argue is broken due to how fucking easy it is to pull off) it will still be OU viable with its Life Orb set, while Espeon doesn't suffer because it's shit outside of full BP anyway.
Enough with the baton pass takes no skill argument. Baton Pass takes quite a bit, you have to know when to baton pass, when to boost, what to lead with. Also players like Denisss spent lots of hours working on the team to make it well. It takes about as much skill as any other play style. Stall> Switch to something that can wall opposing pokemon. Offense>Set up rocks>Switch to Bisharp when defogger comes in>Spam knock off or sucker punch. Idiots with the team lose a lot, same with any other team, its no where near the level of where you just hit swagger and wait for opponent to hurt themselves. Sure it cause autolosses at team preview, but so do stall and offensive teams. If I don't have a wallbreaker, stall will probably beat me. If I don't have something to stop a +2 sucker punch offense beats me.
Honestly I do think it deserves to be nerfed for forcing people to run niche counters, but limiting to 3 pokemon really hurts, I feel 4 would have been sufficient.
Honestly I do think it deserves to be nerfed for forcing people to run niche counters, but limiting to 3 pokemon really hurts, I feel 4 would have been sufficient.
If you read the first thread, you would remember that people who never played OU before were able to get stupidly high ladder rankings using BP in just a few hours. Some people even had their younger siblings try it out with similar results, which is fucking stupid for skill-centered meta.
Honestly I don't buy any of that crap, imo most of the people saying that were just people that wanted it banned. People would have had to now if opposing pokemon were physical or special attackers etc... You may be able to get to about 1200 vs noobs, but higher than that seems quite doubtful for people without knowledge of the meta.
dEnIsSsS and Stinki Shark, along with many other players, have topped the ladder with Baton Pass teams, so saying vs. 1200 and it's no longer good is not correct.
I'm saying complete noobs can't get passed 1200, which is what some people are claiming
Hey so already I have seen some really terrible posts that I could delete, but I would rather give a thread wide warning, so the next time someone uses this particular argument, I can give a instant 2 point infraction.
Firstly, technically speaking Baton Pass is not uncounterable. Heck, you will be hard pressed to find something that isn't counterable. That is not the issue here, the issue is whether Baton Pass causes teams to require an undue amount of over preparation to deal with it, and if so, what solutions to the BP issue should be looked at. This means that I don't give a flying f**k if Baton Pass loses to Guard Swap, because Guard Swap is a shitty move and shouldn't even be relevant. So the next time someone wants to post an exhaustive list of moves that completely fuck with Baton Pass a) make sure its at least accurate, and b) make sure these moves are not actually garbage and are worth using on your team. This goes for pokemon as well, for instance I really don't want to see Shedinja mentioned again in this thread.
Carry on.
Firstly, technically speaking Baton Pass is not uncounterable. Heck, you will be hard pressed to find something that isn't counterable. That is not the issue here, the issue is whether Baton Pass causes teams to require an undue amount of over preparation to deal with it, and if so, what solutions to the BP issue should be looked at. This means that I don't give a flying f**k if Baton Pass loses to Guard Swap, because Guard Swap is a shitty move and shouldn't even be relevant. So the next time someone wants to post an exhaustive list of moves that completely fuck with Baton Pass a) make sure its at least accurate, and b) make sure these moves are not actually garbage and are worth using on your team. This goes for pokemon as well, for instance I really don't want to see Shedinja mentioned again in this thread.
Carry on.
Gonna have to go with option 2 here. Option 3 has more collateral damage, whereas option 2 only serves to nerf baton chain teams (and even then, they're still usable in the hands of a good player). I think I've mentioned it before in the last thread, but baton pass chains are indeed teams that are very hard to defeat without some dedicated niche counter, and even then, it often makes a team worse if it needs to include one. Baton pass chains also require relatively less skill to make and pilot than other OU teams, as the playstyle is very formulaic.
- Status