Well why use Bulk up when you have defiant?
I mean its nice to have boosts but it's kinda unecessary if you've got them encored into defogs which gives you more attack boosts anyway
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- Thread starter Raseri
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Well why use Bulk up when you have defiant?
I mean its nice to have boosts but it's kinda unecessary if you've got them encored into defogs which gives you more attack boosts anyway
Thats my point precisely, hoping for the other team to have a defogger is kinda playing russian roulette, due to his poor defenses if Primeape isnt scarfed it can get easily revenge killed. Just an opinion though but like i said something like qwaillfish walls your primeape set amd can hax it.
Try keeping offensive pressure up on the shell smash user, also things like haze and phasing moves are pretty good, most notably dragon tail Dragalge is a good stop to it as it doesnt take to much from ice beam and can dtail it out. The issue with baton pass shell smash is that white herb is required other wise the -defenses really hurt a sweeper. So it can only really do it once realistically.
Pooch13 defog is a pretty common way to get rid of hazards and on a hazard based team is a good way to deter that. Also bulk up primeape is bad for exactly the reason you said it has poor defenses and no way to recover health. And lots of things can wall various versions of Primeape regardless of what version it is.
Yes, I agree. Haze Cryogonal and D-Tail Dragalge can be used to counter smashpass gorebyss. Although dragalge will lose 80% of its health in the process, while only accomplishing to force gorebyss out. That is a shitty trade-off. Max sp def, Haze Cryogonal is the best counter, but loses out on either hp ground/recover or toxic, just to counter one dumb OP strategy. When people were discussing Combusken-Pass, dragalge was also brought up as a counter, but in the end it was decided that if you have to bring dragon tail dragalge to every game to counter something, then that something is broken. And the same applies in this case, imo.
The difference is that if you force out Gorebyss once after it has smash passed whether through offensive pressure or dtail/haze it pretty much cant set up at all anymore because after the drops it cant really take a hit. I agree smash pass is really good, but it is not unbeatable and not as stupidly over powered as Combusken was.
I dont agree with the "offensive pressure" thing. At some point the Gorebyss-user will find an opportunity to send in Gorebyss against something that cant hurt it. Like seismetoed or choicelocked typhlosion etc. Doesnt matter if youre using HO, not all 6 members in your squad will be able to beat gorebyss 1v1. And as I said, if I have to use dtail dragalge or cryogonal in every team in order to have a chance against a certain strategy, that limits teambuilding so much, that NU becomes boring af.
At some point Feraligatr/Slurpuff/Gurdurr/[insert set up sweeper of choice] will be able to come in on something that can't hurt it. Doesn't matter if you're using HO, not all six members will be able to beat Feraligatr/Slurpuff/Gurdurr/[insert set up sweeper of choice] 1v1.
See where I'm going with this? This is true for every set up sweeper in the entire tier (even in every tier). Musharna can also set up boosts and pass it to something else if the match up becomes unfavorable enough, same with Gorebyss.
It's a great team supporter and decent sweeper in its own right but it relies far too much on the recipient of the smash being healthy enough to do anything notable which in a lot of situations won't happen unless the opponent have no options to deal with it at all. So in reality passing a +2/+2/+2 costs you about 50% hp (hazards + whatever attack you take switching) and potentially lose your item if you switch into a knock off. And as soon as the first passer is dead you're passing lower defenses everywhere which is very easy to abuse.
Except that youre completely ignoring the fact that Feraligatr, Slurpuff and Gurdurr dont learn baton pass or shell smash? And that the whole reason smashpass is broken is because passing +2 speed and sp atk/atk to 5 different sweepers of your choice is the reason the strategy is broken. It doesnt matter if Feraligatr sets up on your Typhlosion if you can switch out into Vileplume right? So to answer your condescending question, I dont see where youre going with this.
I just played Idontplaytennis, or whatever his name is. And he led off with taunt SR archeops. To ensure I dont get up the hazards you speak off, and that he gets up his rocks. I led with granbull, because it did well against his team in general. After I killed off his archeops, he went into gorebyss, took 50 % from play rough, and passed the boost into LO mesprit. GG
He even admitted himself that he thought it should be banned. It was banned last gen for a reason, and I dont see why it is less broken now.
Honestly if you're going to use SmashPass I'm assuming you're at least going to do it right and run Dual Screen support (Uxie anyone?), so the defense drops on a second SmashPass are kinda irrelevant. Besides, priority in NU isn't too concerning for recipients like Feraligatr and Slurpuff who have good natural bulk and aren't weak to any form of priority barring Hariyama's BP in Slurpuffs case. Most teams don't have double priority, so even if you have to take one hit you sweep regardless most of the time. Also what's going to phaze Gorebyss out? Rhydon? Steelix? Dragalge? You can literally just Sub on the Dragon Tail (if you skip out on Ice Beam) and pass out safely to anything. I prefer to run Sub because it gives autowins against people that try to status the recipient, it's pretty good. Haze Cryogonal is pretty awful, plus you want Freeze-Dry, HP Ground, Recover, possibly Rapid Spin and Ice Beam for a stronger STAB. Not much room for a situational move like Haze. Offensive pressure is also an iffy argument, Gorebyss can take pretty much anything that's not Electric or Grass and it turns out those attacking types are rather uncommon in NU. With Screens up it even tanks those, so yeah. After it Shell Smashes the tables are turned around too; odds are your mon can't take a +2 STAB Hydro Pump so there goes your offensive pressure.
I'm not saying that SmashPass is necessarily broken, but the arguments against it being broken aren't really convincing. As for saying that other setup sweepers can do the same thing, well it's not that simple. Stuff like SD Gatr at least has checks after it sets up. But what beats a Kangaskhan at +2/+2? You could say Gurdurr, but if your opponent has a Gurdurr you can just change the recipient to Slurpuff or another sweeper. That's the problem with SmashPass teams, they have multiple recipients and it's impossible to counter them all after a SmashPass because you just pick the recipient according to your opponents team. I think it's at least food for thought, possibly another suspect.
I'm not saying that SmashPass is necessarily broken, but the arguments against it being broken aren't really convincing. As for saying that other setup sweepers can do the same thing, well it's not that simple. Stuff like SD Gatr at least has checks after it sets up. But what beats a Kangaskhan at +2/+2? You could say Gurdurr, but if your opponent has a Gurdurr you can just change the recipient to Slurpuff or another sweeper. That's the problem with SmashPass teams, they have multiple recipients and it's impossible to counter them all after a SmashPass because you just pick the recipient according to your opponents team. I think it's at least food for thought, possibly another suspect.
I find that SmashPass is powerful except i haven't actually been swept by it because with proper pokemon it isn't particularly hard to stop. I always make sure i have a phaser or a pokemon with a focus sash or something to stop set up sweepers, including smashpass. You don't need to change the whole team in order to stop it, and its usually not that much of a problem for me personally. I wouldn't mind it being suspected except i don't quite think it's necessary. I would much rather see gatr or gurdurr tested.
Okay that is just flat out wrong, Haze is super useful on defensive Cryo.
When I used Gorebyss I usually found that I didn't really want to pass my boosts because I didn't want the recipient to take unnecessary damage, which is especially troublesome with frailer pokemon like Sceptile. There's a bunch of checks to SmashPass like Liepard, SashJynx etc, I don't think it's suspect worthy at this point, especially with stall running rampant in the metagame right now.
Well, dont use sceptile as a smashpass recipient. Its bad. Use the same mons that received the boosts from busken-pass. Gatr, kanga, slurpuff etc, mons with some bulk. Then use that with dual screens, and you will win in no time. Liepard could potentially be a counter, but loses to slurpuff, Gatr jet goes before sucker, and so does sucker punch from kanga (when they are at +2). So liepard is very shaky check. I dont know why you chose to mention sash jynx of all things. Obviously any sashed mon can take a hit and retaliate, thats why smash pass users make sure they get up rocks. I suppose you could use Sashed Kadabra though, but in my experience it doesnt hit hard enough.
Also, I rly cannot relate to what youre saying about stall running rampant atm. Personally I have almost never encountered stall. I face balance with bulky mons such as seismitoed, garbodor and ferroseed along with set-up sweepers such as gatr etc, but never full stall.
Why is Musharna never rated as a Baton Passer? It has the bulk to set up on just about anything in the tier. And the recipient of the boosts doesn't have to take ANY damage on the pass because few things outslow Musharna, allowing it to take the hit and safely bring in your sweeper.
Even if you get phased out, so what? You didn't lose your White Herb. Any damage can be healed off. Musharna can set up and pass multiple times per match due to its longevity.
Even if you get phased out, so what? You didn't lose your White Herb. Any damage can be healed off. Musharna can set up and pass multiple times per match due to its longevity.
So Im quite new to XY NU meta so im not sure yet of whats good and whats gimmicky or just bad but I ve noticed that in need of spinners and hazard setters no one talks about eviolite Pineco.
He can set all three hazards (TS, Spikes, SR) and has access to RS as well and has a pretty decent bulk. I know fire is a common type of attack in NU (Magmortar, Torakoal, Typhlosion etc) as well as rock and flying but with sturdy it still guarantees one hazard up.
So my auestion is is it really that bad to even consider it ?
He can set all three hazards (TS, Spikes, SR) and has access to RS as well and has a pretty decent bulk. I know fire is a common type of attack in NU (Magmortar, Torakoal, Typhlosion etc) as well as rock and flying but with sturdy it still guarantees one hazard up.
So my auestion is is it really that bad to even consider it ?
Its completely outclassed by Omastar in pretty much every way.
even with sturdy ? I see your point because of omastars abilities and SpAtt, movepool etc, but appart from being outclassed can it still be viable ?
Personally I wouldnt run it because I could find a better entry hazard user for pretty much any role it wants to play, Omastar for suicide lead, Qwil and Dragalge for tspikes, Ferroseed and Quilladin for spikes. It has a terrible speed stat of 15 and pretty bad bulk as a wall. It also has no offensive presence and pretty much only painsplit as a form of recovery. Tbh other than the gimmicky lvl1 set I see no reason to run it.
Edit: forgot stealth rocks but again plenty of better users out there like Rhydon and Toad
the thing is pineco is a better utility at being able to do all of those things at once while Omastar and friends have another distinct advantage at being an offensive presence, however minor. plus they aren't slow as fuck
That was precisely my thought process, with a wish passer on the team and covering its weaknesses i think it can be a reliable support, however as i said before im not entirely up to date with this meta so i dont know the most common threats and sweepers. My sole guide for this is the viability rankings but then again so many different sets on some pokemons (like that horrible piece of candy -_-, ugh Slurpuff).
I was thinking that by doing something lie that you can get a surprise factor but the line between that and gimmicks is so very thin.
how do you imagine a wish passer would support your hazard setter??
Im just saying in case you still needt it to RS hazards away and its not at full health for sturdy. Not exactly my point about Pineco though.
I've been building with CM Pass Musharna lately, and I'm sure it's quite good. People just don't use Musharna much in general right now because it struggles to keep up with lots of Spikes, some stall that has reliable answers to its boosts, Dark-types-a-plenty, etc. It's definitely not bad and even an underrated Pokemon right now, but it's understandable why people are weary about it in the meta.
Calm mind or even curse musharna is a great baton passer. I haven't personally used it except I have spectated some battles from other people in the NU room and it's incredibly bulky, and is a good baton passer overall. It isn't great if u want something to get up a quick boost though, it's better to stay in and keep setting up because of its bulk. I would make sure there aren't any powerful knock off users or other strong dark type before setting up.
I made a team recently with QueenofLuvdics with 5 Bulky Special attackers and a BP Musharna, and it's actually worked out rather well. The fact that such a crude and unthought-out team can do well with the support mushy brings speaks volumes, in my opinion. This mon is really good atm, and when/if tomb leaves I wouldn't be surprised if it became A rank again, and a definite candiidate for top mon. Knock off buff definitely hurts it, but it rarely takes more than 50% from an unboosted one, and can simply moonlight off the damage :]
tl;dr, it's a super good mon and you should all use it
tl;dr, it's a super good mon and you should all use it
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