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Project Counter That Pokemon! [Battle Time!]

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Random Passerby said:
Erm, sorry if I'm too direct here but Recover on an offensive Starmie is kinda bad because without investment in bulk, Starmie is extremely frail and will likely lose more health to hits than Recover can heal. Instead, it would prefer another coverage move. When I look at the moves, I think you're trying to use the defensive Starmie set (which is a reliable spinner) but uses the items and EV spread of the offensive spinner ; which makes it something of a middle ground between offensive and defensive. Unfortunately, this causes Starmie to have weaker coverage moves and doesn't have the bulk to live hits and Recover to a decent health for a spin.
Click to expand...

I actually built both the teams with my friend and had a battle ( after reading your comment), and then changed the old EVs to the current EVs, which avoids the 2HKO from Ttars Pursuit without SR which is pretty likely( saying from practice) and outspeeds + Base 100s.
 
Radio_Active, I can't change a set during the voting process, especially right as I'm about to announce who's won the vote. Once the voting starts, sets are pretty much locked in. It makes a mess of things if people are voting for sets they think are optimal, only to have them change after they've voted.

Either way, Calm Mind Mega Latias will be Team 1's fourth Pokemon!
380-mega.gif

Latias @ Latiasite
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 248 HP / 212 Def / 44 Spe
Bold Nature
- Calm Mind
- Roost
- Hidden Power [Fighting]
- Stored Power

Next up, nominations for Team 1! Voting will start on the 6th.
 
Keldeo @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Justified
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Scald
- Secret Sword
- Hydro Pump
- Hidden Power Electric

Boring option but Keldeo provides the team with a revenge killer and Dark resist, which allows it to patch up the weakness to Dark spam (Weavile, Ttar, Bisharp). With the correct move, Keldeo is able to at least 2HKO all of Team 2 (except Dragalge which counters it) and it outspeeds Victini with it's own Choice Scarf. Keldeo's checks such as Lati@s, Celebi and Slowbro are all checked by the combination of Gengar + Bisharp or set-up bait for Mega Latias. HP Electric allows Keldeo to revenge kill Gyarados while providing something to hit Starmie with (it won't do shit to Slowking or Suicune but Latias-M can set up on them).

Withdrawing Scarf Keldeo. Nominating something else instead. If somebody still wants to nominate Keldeo, please do so.

EDIT: Reminder that this is the penultimate team member. We still have several roles to fulfill such as revenge killer, cleaner, wallbreaker and hazard removal. Keldeo can act as a revenge killer and late-game cleaner but it can't wallbreak without a boosting item. Keldeo is able to outspeed a +1 Mega Charizard X and revenge kill it if it is around 64% (which isn't that hard to achieve with Stealth Rock and taking damage while setting up)
 
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OK so the team at the moment still doesn’t have a great switch to Dragalge, and Team 2 is ridiculously weak to Thunder Wave. It’s also hurt by Spikes.

707.gif


Klefki @ Leftovers
Ability: Prankster
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD
Careful Nature
- Thunder Wave
- Magnet Rise
- Spikes
- Play Rough

OK. Nothing on Team 1 really touches Klefki except Victini which for one thing is a free switch for Garchomp and for another, if need be, it can be Thunder Waved and permanently crippled. Spikes support just destroys Team 1 as Dragalge will stop becoming a switch for Gengar and Keldeo’s gonna be hating Spikes considering it’s got no recovery. Magnet Rise lets Klefki wall Lando in a 1v1 which is good – it doesn’t need to be a switchin because Lando is also walled by Latias. Play Rough hits Keldeo which at the worst makes Keldeo even less likely to want to switch in if it decides it can put up with being Paralyzed, and the Special Defense EVs let it stop Mega Gardevoir which absolutely destroys Team 2 at the moment. Considering that the only physical attacker in Team 2 at the moment is Victini and that defensive investment will not save Klefki when it comes to Victini, Special Defense investment seemed more useful.

Some Calcs:

0 Atk Klefki Play Rough vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Keldeo: 176-210 (54.4 - 65%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 SpA Choice Specs Keldeo Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Klefki: 211-249 (66.3 - 78.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

0 SpA Dragalge Scald vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Klefki: 45-53 (14.1 - 16.6%) -- possible 9HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 SpA Life Orb Landorus Hidden Power Ice vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Klefki: 31-36 (9.7 - 11.3%) -- possibly the worst move ever

0 Atk Klefki Play Rough vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Landorus: 88-105 (27.5 - 32.9%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
 
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Mega Sableye is showing it's ugly head, I fear.
Example, with a set such as this (stolen from the Good Cores thread)

Sableye @ Sablenite
Ability: Prankster
EVs: 248 HP / 164 Def / 96 SpD
Sassy Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Knock Off
- Will-O-Wisp
- Recover
- Metal Burst / Foul Play / Taunt / Fake Out

It can prove to be very annoying to take down, as it completely wall Latias-M (I admit, I kinda forgot about this mon when I voted for Latias-M) while beating every single team member one on one. I suggest that somebody nominates something to handle Mega Eye. (It tanks hits from Gengar and OHKO back, Bisharp and Garchomp simply get burned, Mega Latias can't do jack, Keldeo needs to hit 2 Hydro Pumps with high rolls both times, Klefki wins unless Mega Eye Metal Bursts back).

252 SpA Life Orb Gengar Shadow Ball vs. 248 HP / 96+ SpD Mega Sableye: 126-149 (41.5 - 49.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
0 Atk Garchomp Earthquake vs. 248 HP / 164 Def Mega Sableye: 99-117 (32.6 - 38.6%) -- 98.3% chance to 3HKO
252+ Atk Bisharp Iron Head vs. 248 HP / 164 Def Mega Sableye: 102-120 (33.6 - 39.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 SpA Keldeo Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 96+ SpD Mega Sableye: 133-157 (43.7 - 51.6%) -- 9% chance to 2HKO
0 Atk Klefki Play Rough vs. 248 HP / 164 Def Mega Sableye: 116-140 (38.2 - 46.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
0 Atk Mega Sableye Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Gengar: 276-326 (106.5 - 125.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
 
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Sorry for double posting, just changing my nomination to Sylveon.

Sylveon @ Choice Specs
Ability: Pixilate
EVs: 240 HP / 252 SpA / 16 Spe
Modest Nature
- Hyper Voice
- Psyshock
- Hidden Power Fire
- Baton Pass

Sylveon completes the FSD core with Bisharp and Latias-M while also utterly annihilating Mega Sableye. With a Modest Nature and Choice Specs, every single Pokemon of Team 2 is at least 2HKOed by Pixilate Hyper Voice after Stealth Rock. Hidden Power Fire is used to nail Ferrothorn and Mega Metagross while Psyshock dents Mega Venusaur. Baton Pass is used to gain momentum and allows a safe switch-in for teammates. For bonus points, nothing likes switching in on Sylveon except Jirachi, Heatran and Bronzong and all of them are beaten by Garchomp and Bisharp.


252 SpA Choice Specs Keldeo Hydro Pump vs. 240 HP / 0 SpD Sylveon: 214-253 (54.7 - 64.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Keldeo Scald vs. 240 HP / 0 SpD Sylveon: 156-184 (39.8 - 47%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Earth Power vs. 240 HP / 0 SpD Sylveon: 183-216 (46.8 - 55.2%) -- 69.5% chance to 2HKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Pixilate Sylveon Hyper Voice vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Landorus: 336-396 (105.3 - 124.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Pixilate Sylveon Hyper Voice vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Keldeo: 608-716 (188.2 - 221.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Pixilate Sylveon Hyper Voice vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Victini: 140-165 (41 - 48.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Pixilate Sylveon Hyper Voice vs. 248 HP / 232+ SpD Dragalge: 177-208 (53.1 - 62.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Sylveon Psyshock vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Dragalge: 280-330 (84 - 99%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
 
Submission Period is now over. Voting has begun!
  1. Users with fewer than 25 posts will not be allowed to vote. This is to prevent people from making alts or getting their friends to join in order to manipulate the votes.
  2. To avoid vote bandwagoning, please PM me your votes.
  3. You are allowed to vote for your own submission.
Voters will pick their two favorite submissions. A ballot should look something like this.

Tyranitar
Azumarill
Each Pokemon will receive votes based on their position in the ballot. To use the above example, Tyranitar will receive 2 votes, and Azumarill will receive 1 vote.

At the end of the voting period, the Pokemon with the most votes will become the first Pokemon on Team 1.

EDIT: Seeing as there's only two mons on this slate, don't bother with picking your top two this time. Don't worry about it if you've already voted.

Candidates:

Voting will end on June 8th.

Feel free to continue discussing candidates until the 8th.

Right, so about three people voted this week. Given that, plus the low number of sets submitted, I'm going to extend last week's nominations to this week. Nominations are still open for Team 1, and on Saturday I'll open the voting and we can try that again. Klefki and Specs Sylveon on the slate, so don't bother resubmitting those.
 
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Azumarill @ Sitrus Berry
Ability: Huge Power
EVs: 92 HP / 252 Atk / 164 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Belly Drum
- Aqua Jet
- Play Rough
- Knock Off

BD Azu covers some weaknesses for Team 1. It gives another switch-in to opposing dragon types outside of Bisharp. It also checks Weavile and Mega Diancie which are pretty decent options for Team 2 at this point. It also can't be OHKO'd by Landorus because it is lacking Sludge Wave. It checks pretty much most of Team 2 outside of a fully healthy Dragalge
 
I don't really like impermanence of the current fairy noms. Team 1 would have to play very carefully with them, especially with team 2 consisting 4 wallbreakers. I think that having a mon to check m-sab is important, and one that can last the whole game. It also needs to have some power, so I propose a mon which can ohko or 2hko the whole team minus victini: Tank Clefable.

clefable.gif


Clefable @ Life Orb
Ability: Magic Guard
EVs: 252 HP / 252 SpA / 4 SpD
Modest Nature
- Moonblast
- Flamethrower
- Ice Beam
- Soft-Boiled

EVs are a simple spread to maximize bulk and power. Coverage is to hit landorus and ferrothorn. MSab just kills team 1, and paired with ferro is a greater threat.

Victini shuts down this clef, but that can be a good thing. With it's rock weakness, it will be really worn down the more clef switches in.

M-diancie 2hkos this set with both moonblast and diamond storm, so clef can retaliate, but not switch in. Overall, choosing this will force team 2 down the diancie route, which team 1 can patch up with it's last pick.
 
So, we have Klefki, Sylveon, Azumarill and Clefable. All Fairy-types this time. Let's see:

Klefki : Spikes support since most Pokemon on Team 2 are weakened by it, Landorus-I can't touch it because of Magnet Rise. Thunder Wave also deters set-up and cripples fast threats such as Weavile, Scarf Pokemon, etc.. It's also a good Dragalge switch-in, taking some pressure off Bisharp.

Sylveon : As I said, this thing obliterates most answers to Mega Latias with it's strong STAB move and coverage, which also allows it to at worst 2HKO all members of the opposing team. However, it is slow and the lack of bulk investment means it's not as bulky as you want it to be.

Azumarill: Good typing allows it to force out a lot of the opponent's team (even Dragalge since it won't be able to check Gengar once it is weakened) . It's able to deal a lot of damage to the opponent with it's dual STABs and provides a strong priority in Aqua Jet. Belly Drum allows it to go for a sweep. One issue here is that Azumarill's Belly Drum set relies on that one chance to sweep and it is very susceptible to status. It also hits for much less damage compared to Sylveon (before set-up) since it's not a wallbreaker.

Clefable: Don't like this set at all. Without Leftovers and significant bulk investment, Clefable really struggles to check what it needs to (such as Weavile, Keldeo, etc.). With the current set, it's like a hybrid of Offensive and Defensive variants, causing it to not excel in any role. (sorry if I'm too harsh here but that's what I see)
 
Voting session, take 2.
  1. Users with fewer than 25 posts will not be allowed to vote. This is to prevent people from making alts or getting their friends to join in order to manipulate the votes.
  2. To avoid vote bandwagoning, please PM me your votes.
  3. You are allowed to vote for your own submission.
Voters will pick their two favorite submissions. A ballot should look something like this.

Tyranitar
Azumarill
Each Pokemon will receive votes based on their position in the ballot. To use the above example, Tyranitar will receive 2 votes, and Azumarill will receive 1 vote.

At the end of the voting period, the Pokemon with the most votes will become the first Pokemon on Team 1.

If you voted last time, I'm gonna need you to submit your votes again, since we have more than 2 candidates.

Candidates:

Voting will end on June 15th.

Feel free to continue discussing candidates until the 15th.
 
Team 1 is now armed with a keychain.
klefki.gif

Klefki @ Leftovers
Ability: Prankster
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD
Careful Nature
- Thunder Wave
- Magnet Rise
- Spikes
- Play Rough

Nominations are up for Team 2. Voting will begin on the 20th.

Since it's been asked a few times, we're going to keep Landorus on Team 2. Seeing as everyone knows Landorus's moveset for this project, it being able to pick and choose its counters isn't quite as important.
 
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sableye-mega.gif


Sableye @ Sablenite
Ability: Prankster
EVs: 252 HP / 112 Def / 144 SpD
Careful Nature
- Knock Off
- Will-O-Wisp
- Recover
- Foul Play

Completely counters Mega Latias while wearing down Klefki with Will-O-Wisp and repeated Knock Offs. It also hardwalls every single Pokemon in Team 1 and discourages Klefki from spamming status moves like Spikes and Thunder Wave. A burned Klefki's Play Rough also doesn't threaten Mega Sableye at all. Mega Sableye also spinblocks Toxic Spikes from Dragalge. Fairy-types which checks this set can be taken care of by Victini while Keldeo and Landorus can take care of Fire types (except Talonflame). A second Fairy check is recommended since Rocks + FatChomp wears down Victini really fast.

Note 1: You can also use the CM set but this SpD set can double as a Gengar check as it avoids the 2HKO from LO Shadow Ball while OHKOing back with Knock Off.

Note 2: Metal Burst can be used but it will cripple Mega Sableye since you need to take a strong hit to deal worthwhile damage. However, it almost guarantees a KO-ed opponent's Pokemon. Might be gimmicky since the opponent knows our moves but mindgames can do something. Otherwise, go with the boring Foul Play.
 
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thundurus.gif

Thundurus @ Leftovers
Ability: Prankster
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
- Nasty Plot
- Thunderbolt
- Hidden Power [Ice]
- Dark Pulse

Last chance to build double genie core cuz Bandorus.

Anyway Thundurus outspeeds all of Team 1 and still basically can't be touched or T-Waved by Klefki which is nice since most fast things can be T-Waved neutralizing their effectiveness. It sets up a Nasty Plot and sweeps everything pretty much with Dark Pulse as the coverage for Mega Latias. Bisharp is the only thing preventing a sweep and if Thundurus is near full HP then Sucker Punch isn't going to KO. Also gives another ground immunity which Team 2 still kinda needs.
 
bludz said:
thundurus.gif

Thundurus @ Leftovers
Ability: Prankster
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
- Nasty Plot
- Thunderbolt
- Hidden Power [Ice]
- Dark Pulse

Last chance to build double genie core cuz Bandorus.

Anyway Thundurus outspeeds all of Team 1 and still basically can't be touched or T-Waved by Klefki which is nice since most fast things can be T-Waved neutralizing their effectiveness. It sets up a Nasty Plot and sweeps everything pretty much with Dark Pulse as the coverage for Mega Latias. Bisharp is the only thing preventing a sweep and if Thundurus is near full HP then Sucker Punch isn't going to KO. Also gives another ground immunity which Team 2 still kinda needs.
Click to expand...

This kind of thing is exactly why I said use Psyshock instead of Stored Power T-T.

To pretend this isn't just me moaning about move choices, I agree that Thundurus can pretty much do whatever it wants if Bisharp is gone (it can't achieve much otherwise since Rocks + 1 round of LO recoil + Sucker Punch = fainted Thundurus). However, Lando and Keldeo should be sufficient to handle Bisharp. It also doesn't get set-up opportunities easily since it is quite frail (and a sac to prevent a Nasty Plot sweep isn't uncommon when the team is so weak to it). One other thing that makes me hesitate here is Mamoswine (look at the team and you should know why). However, Mamo doesn't fit into the opposing Team so easily.
 
Hey, first time posting here so tell me if I'm doing this wrongly. I propose adding Mamoswine to Team 2.

mamoswine.gif

Mamoswine @ Life Orb
Ability: Thick Fat
EVs: 244 Atk / 12 SpA / 252 Spe
Naive Nature
- Ice Shard
- Earthquake
- Icicle Crash
- Freeze-Dry

Mamoswine has 2 great STABs which allows it to threaten Bisharp, Garchomp, Klefki and Mega Latias with Super Effective hits. It also doesn't care about Thunder Wave and can snipe Gengar if Gengar has been sufficiently weakened.
 
Just feel that whatever we pick, there will be a big threat we are opening ourselves to:

1) Mega Sableye: Fairies, Manaphy, Volcarona

2) Thundurus: Mamoswine, Weavile , also loses if Mega Latias already has a CM

3) Mamoswine: Gyarados, Manaphy, Volcarona
 
Voting time!
  1. Users with fewer than 25 posts will not be allowed to vote. This is to prevent people from making alts or getting their friends to join in order to manipulate the votes.
  2. To avoid vote bandwagoning, please PM me your votes.
  3. You are allowed to vote for your own submission.
Voters will pick their two favorite submissions. A ballot should look something like this.

Tyranitar
Azumarill
Each Pokemon will receive votes based on their position in the ballot. To use the above example, Tyranitar will receive 2 votes, and Azumarill will receive 1 vote.

At the end of the voting period, the Pokemon with the most votes will become the first Pokemon on Team 1.

Candidates:

Voting will end on June 22nd.

Feel free to continue discussing candidates until the 22nd.
 
I don't think I'm able to vote but I have to say, Specially Defensive Mega Sableye looks like a pretty risky pick to me since Volcarona, Fairies, Keldeo and Manaphy can just come in for free and set-up on it. Sure, it beats 5 other Pokemon but remember it didn't do so as effeciently as you like due to prior damage and low Speed making it difficult to find time to Recover, especially when you are set-up bait for the threats I listed above.

Thundurus-I is a sound pick as it can form the double genies core with Landorus. However, it is unable to beat Mega Latias reliably, as Random Passerby pointed out (because if it Calm Minds as you come in, Dark Pulse will deal laughable damage. If you Nasty Plot, it can then Calm Mind again and kill you with Stored Power next turn as +2 Dark Pulse deals less than half) . It is still able to be a pain in the neck despite this though, due to it's great Speed and coverage.

Mamoswine is just something I suggested out of a whim as the other team has no switch-ins to it at all. Icicle Crash hits Mega Latias very hard, allowing it to be picked off with ease later on.
 
Fire-breather Richard said:
I don't think I'm able to vote but I have to say, Specially Defensive Mega Sableye looks like a pretty risky pick to me since Volcarona, Fairies, Keldeo and Manaphy can just come in for free and set-up on it. Sure, it beats 5 other Pokemon but remember it didn't do so as effeciently as you like due to prior damage and low Speed making it difficult to find time to Recover, especially when you are set-up bait for the threats I listed above.

Thundurus-I is a sound pick as it can form the double genies core with Landorus. However, it is unable to beat Mega Latias reliably, as Random Passerby pointed out (because if it Calm Minds as you come in, Dark Pulse will deal laughable damage. If you Nasty Plot, it can then Calm Mind again and kill you with Stored Power next turn as +2 Dark Pulse deals less than half) . It is still able to be a pain in the neck despite this though, due to it's great Speed and coverage.

Mamoswine is just something I suggested out of a whim as the other team has no switch-ins to it at all. Icicle Crash hits Mega Latias very hard, allowing it to be picked off with ease later on.
Click to expand...

1) 0 Atk Garchomp Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 112 Def Mega Sableye: 102-121 (33.5 - 39.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252+ Atk Bisharp Iron Head vs. 252 HP / 112 Def Mega Sableye: 105-124 (34.5 - 40.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
0 Atk burned Klefki Play Rough vs. 252 HP / 112 Def Mega Sableye: 61-73 (20 - 24%) -- guaranteed 5HKO

None of these are particularly threatening (the only one is Gengar which it barely avoids the 2HKO from) so you can Recover on them. I do agree that Mega Sableye can do nothing against Fairies, Manaphy and Volcarona but those things can be handled by teammates.

3) Mamoswine looks great on paper but consider this, you use Icicle Crash on Garchomp, OHKO-ing it, taking LO recoil + Rough Skin + Rocky Helmet. Now, you are at 62 % where a Sucker Punch from Bisharp can pick you off. While it can OHKO Klefki, it doesn't manage to prevent Spikes going up (unlike Mega Sableye).
 
Pretty sure Icicle Crash doesn't make contact so you don't take the Rough Skin or Rocky Helmet damage.

I'd like to point out that while we are trying to counter the other team, this thread is named counter that pokemon after all. Mamoswine really doesn't counter Klefki and instead is just setup fodder for it. Besides that I'm a fan of the nomination but just thought I'd throw that out there.
 
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