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np: ORAS UU Stage 3.2 - Game of Pricks [Pidgeotite voted BL] - See Post #257

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Getting back to the actual suspect ladder, I certainly like this meta a lot more than one that actually has Mega Pidgeot. I'm currently sitting at roughly 2450 COIL on an alt, and I've had a lot of time to think this whole thing over.

Pidgeot's ridiculously good offensive coverage with its STAB alone has long terrorized a lot of UU mons and limited their effectiveness, and with it gone, I certainly have seen a few more Pokemon that Pidgeot dumps on, most notably stuff like Shaymin and Infernape. The meta certainly seems to revolve less around one core threat and is overall more healthy. Balance and Bulky offense have been helped out by the (temporary?) removal of Mega Pidgeot, and I like the way the meta looks without it.

I was initially intensely sceptical on this whole thing, but after really looking at it, I think it's best for us to ban Mega Pidgeot.
 
So I'm about 25 battles into this suspect with a relatively decent W/L, I haven't made up my mind entirely as to whether or not Mega-Pidgeot is banworthy but I'll post some observations I've made from my battles and watching others.

First thing to take note of is the increase in fighting/grass usage across the tier. I've been seeing a lot more ape, luc, ches, shaymin and roserade on this ladder, the reason being self-explanatory in that these things can be played without being outsped and OHKO'd by Pidgeot. I've been seeing the buzz word "over-centralizing" a lot in this thread so far and I'm inclined to agree, mega-pidgeots speed tier combined with its ability mean that it reliably 2HKO's much of the tier and makes some offensively based teams useless against it. Banning it would likely prompt a bit more variety in the UU metagame since people don't need to worry about their team being "super weak to mega pidgeot". By "variety" I specifically mean that it would allow people to play in a slightly more offensive format.

Second I've seen a decline in the number of fat blissey/cress stall teams. This is probably in accordance with my previous point that the absence of mega-pidgeot permits more offensive teams. Blissey was a check to variants of mega-pidgeot (barring the refresh-roost set) but with the noted rise in fight spam it does make sense that you see less of it. Obviously stall hasn't been made redundant by mega-pidgeot not being in the tier, you need only look at the top of the ladder to see that stall is still a very viable playstyle in this tier. My impression I get though is a pidgeotless UU encourages people, on the whole, to build with a more balanced mindset as opposed to just mindlessly using fat cores.

These are reasons that would make me feel obliged to vote "ban" since I feel if one Pokemon is acting as a restraint on a large amount of the tier it is broken. Again though I scroll down the UU tierlist and see lots of things that can check Pidgeot. All variants of m-Aero outspeed and exploit pigeots No Guard and get a free stone edge. Things like curselax and umbreon can tank special attack (non-boosted) and wear it down. Empoleon switches in quite comfortably and can spam ice beam, and plenty of suicunes are carrying roar to prevent setups. None of these are absolute checks/counters but does make me hesitant to instantly bandwagon with the ban vote. I'll continue to ladder before coming to a final decision and will be happy to accept any criticism/discussion regarding the points I have made.
 
Off topic, but does anybody else remember when the argument for Bird was that MAero existed?

On topic, it's funny to see how much the bird actually did restrict teams. I used it on my more offensively based teams, and could typically afford to sack a mon to kill it. Without it, I have more freedom, don't need to worry about double-switching into a Haxicane. It's overall an improvement to me.
 
Off topic, but does anybody else remember when the argument for Bird was that MAero existed?

On topic, it's funny to see how much the bird actually did restrict teams. I used it on my more offensively based teams, and could typically afford to sack a mon to kill it. Without it, I have more freedom, don't need to worry about double-switching into a Haxicane. It's overall an improvement to me.

This probably depicts what MPidgeot does best, and should probably be the focus of this thread. The problem of MPidgeot is not that its overcentralizing, the problem with it is how much it limits teambuilding, specially, Hyper Offense. People might argue that it has a lot of counter, including the likes of
Mega Ampharos, Empoleon, fairies, rock types etc... Yes these are counters definitely but these mons usually don´t fit in on offensively-structured teams
(except Mega Aerodactyl, that mon is amazing).
 
I've discovered a very wonderful side-effect from Pidgeot's absence: Scald can be more easily handled now. I've been running Shaymin and Roserade since the ladder's inception (and Shaymin a little before), and they simply eat 99% of bulky waters for breakfast. Shaymin works as a nice balance breaker with great coverage and a good speed tier, and Roserade has done wonders with laying Spikes and Sleep Powder. Even with a Life Orb, Rest Shaymin and Giga Drain Roserade have juuust enough staying power to be able to handle bulky waters. Roserade obviously can't safely switch in on Swampert, but she's got that extra power and utility. Bulky waters have suddenly become infinitely more manageable now that good Grass-types aren't auto-liabilities.

Obviously, this shouldn't be the sole factor in deciding on a vote, but it's a neat factor to consider. I know people have said "Well, now Grass-types are better." Thinking another step or three into that chain (if Grass-types are better, what impact do they have on the rest of the tier at large now?) helps make a voter more informed, in my opinion.
 
I'll just say that I prefer HO. It just works better for me. And with Bird Jesus, most of the time I just needed to run a scarfer that could come in after a mon got dropped, and proceed to harass whatever came in, or some sort of Lum Berry DDance Mence to scare it out and get some kills.

Issue is that as soon as I tried a more balanced style, Bird began giving me actual problems. And I hate stall so no experience there. But balance? If the guy played well and if random number god liked them, I could either get 6-0ed or kill the bird first turn.

Now, any sort of Flying move can ruin the tier. We just don't have enough to cover it. But when said move never misses, packs a hell of a punch, and can confuse? There can be counters, but let's be real. We've all gotten past one with super hax god.

Birds just not healthy for the meta.
 
Well I thought I'd be able to pull up a detailed opinion after getting reqs, so here it goes:

Mega-Pidgeot is one of the best mons in UU, very few can switch into its STAB never missing Hurricanes, and yet, without getting confusion haxed. If you have a team unprepared for Pidge, you're getting destroyed by that thing. Scarf revenge-killers are not a counter to this, since they can only beat them 1v1, otherwise Pidge can switch out to one of its partners. Does it restrict team building? Of course. Balanced teams have Mega Ampharos or Empoleon or Snorlax or Florges or Umbreon, and at times, more than one of them. The fun fact is that only Mega Ampharos and Empoleon seems to work as a counter. If Florges gets confused while switching in, Pidge will obviously stay in and continue spamming Hurricane, and if you're unlucky, rip your Pidge check and gg. Under the perfect circumstances, Pidgeot can beat Snorlax without hax if Snorlax Rests and then switches out. It cannot switch into Pidge anymore. Balanced seems to work under Mega Pidgeot's rule, even though confusion hax is really really annoying. What about HO? Their only check is Mega Aerodactyl, but HO has some great megas in Mega Sharpedo, Mega Beedrill, Mega Swampert. I think that just for checking a certain pokemon if a mega slot is being occupied, teambuilding has definitely been restricted. Work Up sets can also beat through Lax and Florges, while Work Up Refresh can beat Blissey as well. Yes, we all agree that somehow teambuilding gets restricted by all S class pokemons. What other mons are S-Class? Hydreigon? Slurpuff bait, Florges, Mienshao, AV Machamp and a lot more can check it. Feraligatr? It being slow is the only reason it's not broken yet. Also Whimsicott can Encore while Chesnaught and Tangrowth counters it. Salamence? Mamoswine, Abomasnow, Whimsicott, Aerodactyl. Mega Aerodactyl? Bulky waters and Steel. Pidgeot has like 3 legit counters and others can get haxed. Tbh, if people start running Tbolt LO Azelf just for this monster, we all know what we should do here.

BAN PIDGEOTITE
 
Imo Mega Pidgeot's ban arguments are generally a bit overblown as it does have a decent amount of checks in Ampharos, Rotom-H, Aero, Empoleon, Snorlax, Florges, and P2. All of these mons are viable even if their main role on the team isn't to check Pidgeot. One argument I've seen a decent amount is that you have to run a dedicated check to it, but isn't that the case with every S rank threat? If you don't run a Gatr check then you'll get swept. If you don't run an Aerodactyl check then you'll get swept. It's not like its only 2 or 3 things that check Pidg. I'm not trying to knock Pidgeot's sheer power and speed as that is what makes it an S rank mon in the first place, but some of these arguments are just overblown. Overall I do think it should be banned due to it's spammable hurricane with no draw backs and amazing speed tier to go along with that annoying 30% confuse chance. Flying is an amazing offensive type which I believe only has 3 resists and it also has a good stall breaker set with work up/refresh to break through bulkier mons. Basically what I'm saying with this post is that whether or not Pidgeotite is banned, I could understand the reason for either one.
 
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Well I thought I'd be able to pull up a detailed opinion after getting reqs, so here it goes:

Mega-Pidgeot is one of the best mons in UU, very few can switch into its STAB never missing Hurricanes, and yet, without getting confusion haxed. If you have a team unprepared for Pidge, you're getting destroyed by that thing. Scarf revenge-killers are not a counter to this, since they can only beat them 1v1, otherwise Pidge can switch out to one of its partners. Does it restrict team building? Of course. Balanced teams have Mega Ampharos or Empoleon or Snorlax or Florges or Umbreon, and at times, more than one of them. The fun fact is that only Mega Ampharos and Empoleon seems to work as a counter. If Florges gets confused while switching in, Pidge will obviously stay in and continue spamming Hurricane, and if you're unlucky, rip your Pidge check and gg. Under the perfect circumstances, Pidgeot can beat Snorlax without hax if Snorlax Rests and then switches out. It cannot switch into Pidge anymore. Balanced seems to work under Mega Pidgeot's rule, even though confusion hax is really really annoying. What about HO? Their only check is Mega Aerodactyl, but HO has some great megas in Mega Sharpedo, Mega Beedrill, Mega Swampert. I think that just for checking a certain pokemon if a mega slot is being occupied, teambuilding has definitely been restricted. Work Up sets can also beat through Lax and Florges, while Work Up Refresh can beat Blissey as well. Yes, we all agree that somehow teambuilding gets restricted by all S class pokemons. What other mons are S-Class? Hydreigon? Slurpuff bait, Florges, Mienshao, AV Machamp and a lot more can check it. Feraligatr? It being slow is the only reason it's not broken yet. Also Whimsicott can Encore while Chesnaught and Tangrowth counters it. Salamence? Mamoswine, Abomasnow, Whimsicott, Aerodactyl. Mega Aerodactyl? Bulky waters and Steel. Pidgeot has like 3 legit counters and others can get haxed. Tbh, if people start running Tbolt LO Azelf just for this monster, we all know what we should do here.

BAN PIDGEOTITE
I agree with what you say, I just want to say LO Azelf is good with pidg or without :)
 
Well I thought I'd be able to pull up a detailed opinion after getting reqs, so here it goes:

Mega-Pidgeot is one of the best mons in UU, very few can switch into its STAB never missing Hurricanes, and yet, without getting confusion haxed. If you have a team unprepared for Pidge, you're getting destroyed by that thing. Scarf revenge-killers are not a counter to this, since they can only beat them 1v1, otherwise Pidge can switch out to one of its partners. Does it restrict team building? Of course. Balanced teams have Mega Ampharos or Empoleon or Snorlax or Florges or Umbreon, and at times, more than one of them. The fun fact is that only Mega Ampharos and Empoleon seems to work as a counter. If Florges gets confused while switching in, Pidge will obviously stay in and continue spamming Hurricane, and if you're unlucky, rip your Pidge check and gg. Under the perfect circumstances, Pidgeot can beat Snorlax without hax if Snorlax Rests and then switches out. It cannot switch into Pidge anymore. Balanced seems to work under Mega Pidgeot's rule, even though confusion hax is really really annoying. What about HO? Their only check is Mega Aerodactyl, but HO has some great megas in Mega Sharpedo, Mega Beedrill, Mega Swampert. I think that just for checking a certain pokemon if a mega slot is being occupied, teambuilding has definitely been restricted. Work Up sets can also beat through Lax and Florges, while Work Up Refresh can beat Blissey as well. Yes, we all agree that somehow teambuilding gets restricted by all S class pokemons. What other mons are S-Class? Hydreigon? Slurpuff bait, Florges, Mienshao, AV Machamp and a lot more can check it. Feraligatr? It being slow is the only reason it's not broken yet. Also Whimsicott can Encore while Chesnaught and Tangrowth counters it. Salamence? Mamoswine, Abomasnow, Whimsicott, Aerodactyl. Mega Aerodactyl? Bulky waters and Steel. Pidgeot has like 3 legit counters and others can get haxed. Tbh, if people start running Tbolt LO Azelf just for this monster, we all know what we should do here.

BAN PIDGEOTITE

Gonna go through the bolded bits one by one

- If I have a team unprepared for any major threat in UU, such as Mega Swampert, Gatr, Mence, I'm getting destroyed by it. This is not a trait exclusive to Pidg, and never has been.

- Those mons are all still good in UU, none of them were being used as exclusive Pidg checks, and there are more than those too.

- If you really think HO's only way of dealing with Pidg is running Mega Aero then I'm kind of astounded tbh. Offense has little difficulty getting and keeping rocks, and thanks to Pidg's subpar bulk, it's not hard to revenge kill. Not being able to switch into a threat is nothing new for offense, and again is not something exclusive to Pidgeot. The real problem would be if it was impossible to revenge kill which clearly isn't the case.

- Aero, Amph, Emp, Rhyp, SpDef Pory2, Bulky Rotom-H(used by Hikari I believe) off the top of my head. I've already doubled your count. Not mentioning the amount of stuff that can 1v1 it or revenge kill it. The one thing I do agree with that makes Pidg annoying is that these are potentially only counters 70% of the time.

- Christo already said.

Tbh, coming into the test I was very much for a Pidgeot ban, but after playing the suspect ladder and seeing the less than convincing ban arguments being presented here, I'm really not too sure any more.
 
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Hi I'd like to address some things here:

-Saying offense doesn't have a switch-in to Pidgeot is ridiculous. Not that it's wrong, but it should go without saying. That's kind of the purpose of offense - you give up defensive utility for ridiculous offensive capabilities. Nothing can take a hit but you have a lot to force it out, and it's not coming in on anything.

-Having to run an answer for a mon doesn't mean it's broken. This just means it's a very good mon. You have to run answers to a lot of things. Viability of these checks is another thing.

-Regarding the confusion arguments, I think people are kind of overstating the impact it has. Yes, it can be annoying. Taking in account the fact that Pidgeot can get off 2 Hurricanes against slower mons, the odds of the opponent hitting themselves in confusion is somewhere around 25%. It's not as if Pidgeot can afford to risk that 25% against most of its checks. That's still a 75% chance for the Empoleon to get off an Ice Beam or a Porygon2 to get off a Thunder Wave. Yes, it will happen sometimes. However, it's by far the exception and isn't even a good play for the Pidgeot user to make most of the time. The only check is really affects is Mega Aerodactyl.

Neither of the first two points are reason to ban Pidgeot, and the fine details of the third point she be considered. The proper way to approach the suspect is to look at how its checks and counters fair in the suspect metagame. Are they any good without Pidgeot in the tier? Were they used just to check Pidgeot? I admit centralization is a subjective thing to argue. I'm just seeing a lot of people arguing about things that shouldn't matter. For now, the UU mod team is going to be a little more strict on the first two points.
 
hilarious

Re: other hax

There's three key differences between something like Inferno Chandelure and Mega Pidgeot. The first is that as often as Inferno Chandelure manages to break past its checks with hax, it fails to do anything at all - in order to hax its way past its checks, it has to take the chance of the same hax backfiring in its face. The second is that Chandelure has to give up something to gain this capacity for hax, likely Fire Blast, reducing its general effectiveness. Mega Pidgeot has neither of these first two problems: there is absolutely no opportunity cost to having Hurricane because it's already Pidgeot's best STAB move.

The third difference is that all of your examples require some degree of prediction in order to cripple their checks. Chandelure might want to click Shadow Ball instead, Hypnosis Crobat might need to use Brave Bird, etc. Other non-hax examples exist: Aerodactyl has tons of relevant coverage options, Chandelure can cripple Lax and P2 with TrickScarf, etc. But Pidgeot doesn't have this limitation, because it's STAB move, which is spammable and powerful, can just outright cripple nearly all of its checks 15% of the time each time it clicks Hurricane. Essentially, even if you play correctly against Pidgeot, you might still just lose your check, and there's nothing you can do about it.

Of course, nearly every Pokemon in the game can do the same with crits, but Pidgeot does so with a much higher frequency. So, in essence, this test depends on whether you think this frequency is too high. I agree with hilarious about deciding how much hax is too much, but the comparisons he used are flawed. Pidgeot doesn't have to predict or give up anything to achieve game-winning hax - it's just handed to it when the rng comes up.

I don't believe we are in any disagreement actually. I know there are a lot of differences between Chandelure example and Pidgeot and you crystallized many of them nicely. Nobody reasonable wants to ban Chandelure (for Inferno at least); what I was getting at is if you simply start banning luck without any guidelines you could make a perfectly logical argument to ban Chandelure. So how you reasoned out something clearly not acceptable practically speaking (banning Chandelure) had its own logical base (your three points) is a good way to frame suspect discussions based on luck which according to our tier leader just now says this suspect is mainly about (as opposed to the strength of the suspect).

Sam, I think it is obvious you are underestimating your third point. Confusion obviously affects more than just Mega Aero and I don't want to pick on you for that because we know that you know that, but if you're saying Confusion affects offensive counters only that's simply wrong. As radianthero156 pointed out Florges is one of those Pokemon that get boned so to speak by the Confusion chance. Umbreon is in a similar position and many bulky waters like Suicune, Vaporeon and Tentacruel.


Lastly I want to respond to the second post in this thread that Sam made. I know it's quite late and you may not want to hear a long post from me here so feel free to delete this part of my post and take it up in PM (or better yet unban me from #xyuu). I wanted to post it here though because it has to do with the whole community here and I did want it public

First off I think both of you Sam and Hikari are good tier leaders and I really appreciate all the work you do and delegate to make the UU competitive community a fun one. However I was simply astounded and frankly the best word I can think of is disappointed on how you made that second post here calling out some of the ban votes for Victini. Please pardon the grammar im on a phone.

1) you ignored statistical data. This isn't acceotable. Sam you said you questioned if people actually saw/used victni before jumping to a ban vote. Well I'm sorry but this data doesn't lie and somebody posted data in the last np thread saying victni was common on all levels of the ladder. Frankly you were just wrong here and I expect better of a tier leader.

2)you didn't differentiate clearly between those who voted ban mindlessly, for lack of a better word, and those who didn't. You should have at least said "we realize many/most of the voters actually carefully thought about their opinions" instead you simply poisoned all of the pro ban votes into one big glob. I know this was not intentional on your part and it may not even be a very big deal and I'm over reading it. But it bothered me.

3)you didn't call out the people who mindlessly voted no ban. Yes there were many of these and I would definitely say people were biased to letting victni free /before/ it was released temporarily because anyone who reads the np thread before victnis release can see those shitposts.

4)you made yourself seem like you were doing something good and uncontroversial by making that post and closing the thread for two days. Yes certainly it may have had good effects by calling out the mindless banners (more on this later). But it is apparent to me at least you also wanted to just keep public criticism like my post now quiet until we forgot about it. And frankly your request to ladder first talk later may not have been good because...

5)just look at the posts now. So many of the posts,especially towards the beginning of the thread, are people saying something like "I'll keep an open mind while laddering but....(opinion here)". It is clear to me sam you just made it easier for people to pretend to be impartial when in reality looking at the substance of a post tells impartiality, not the flowery rhetoric.

I would like to end by saying I hope this doesn't distract from the pidgey discussion but that would be a blatant lie since this obviously has much less to do with pidgey than our tier leaders conduct in general. I feel honestly like this is important though because there will always be more suspect tests in the future and this concerns how we will run them.
 
hilarious I think you misunderstood my point. I'm not saying that these mons don't have the chance to get haxed by the confusion; I acknowledge that. Rather, my point is it's generally disadvantageous for the Pidgeot users to fish for the hax. It's annoying when it happens but it's not a trait that Pidgeot can readily abuse either. The only reason I mention Mega Aero is because Aero takes a decent amount from Hurricane, is rocks weak, and won't get as many chances to heal up like Blissey, Florges, Umbreon etc. will
 
Hi I'd like to address some things here:

-Saying offense doesn't have a switch-in to Pidgeot is ridiculous. Not that it's wrong, but it should go without saying. That's kind of the purpose of offense - you give up defensive utility for ridiculous offensive capabilities. Nothing can take a hit but you have a lot to force it out, and it's not coming in on anything.

Maybe I'm still mis-understanding offence here, but isn't the idea of offence also to retain momentum where at all possible? It's kind of hard to do that without M-Aero for offence once things start going down to hurricane (when it comes in after a kill or on a slow volt-turn), and it's not exactly ideal to be trying to trade pokemon when you're generally running a suicide hazard lead, let alone there being very few pokemon on offence that can claim to set-up in front of M-pidgeot after something goes down to hurricane. It doesn't help that protect on M-pidgeot became a thing, so getting your choice scarf mon scouted makes things even more difficult, especially if you're trying to be clever with U-turn.

I'm also quite interested to know what sort of offence team is lacking both ground and grass moves to come in on as well. Grass I can understand since you'd probably only want it as coverage against M-pert, but ground moves I'd be very surprised to see lacking.
 
I'm also quite interested to know what sort of offence team is lacking both ground and grass moves to come in on as well. Grass I can understand since you'd probably only want it as coverage against M-pert, but ground moves I'd be very surprised to see lacking.
It's not exactly a year ago where Hippowdon was in the tier and Donphan was the most common Rapid Spinner; any Earthquake user is deterring Pidgeot from coming in with their secondary STAB (Mamoswine, Swampert) or super-effective coverage (CB Krook's Stone Edge).
 
Maybe I'm still mis-understanding offence here, but isn't the idea of offence also to retain momentum where at all possible? It's kind of hard to do that without M-Aero for offence once things start going down to hurricane (when it comes in after a kill or on a slow volt-turn), and it's not exactly ideal to be trying to trade pokemon when you're generally running a suicide hazard lead, let alone there being very few pokemon on offence that can claim to set-up in front of M-pidgeot after something goes down to hurricane. It doesn't help that protect on M-pidgeot became a thing, so getting your choice scarf mon scouted makes things even more difficult, especially if you're trying to be clever with U-turn.

I'm also quite interested to know what sort of offence team is lacking both ground and grass moves to come in on as well. Grass I can understand since you'd probably only want it as coverage against M-pert, but ground moves I'd be very surprised to see lacking.

If it's coming in after a kill, at best that's a 1 for 1 trade, and not necessarily a bad thing for the offense user depending on their gameplan which is a key part of playing with offense. A slow Volt Switch is likely either causing the mon that used the pivot move to take a substantial amount of damage, or the player made a good play and is being rewarded for it. A lot of people keep bringing up this point as if it's somehow only Pidgeot which forces these kinds of situations, when given any offense team, I could probably name a ton of things which it doesn't have switchins for and that force a trade. Again yes, offense can't set up on fast hard hitters, but once again, this isn't just Pidg lol. I have literally never seen Tect Pidg so not even going to comment there. Common Ground users on offense are stuff like Mamoswine and Swampert, not switch in opportunities for Pidg.
 
So I have been playing the ladder for the past week and have done fairly well on it so I thought it was time I posted here. I am undecided however there are a few things I have noticed and would like to discuss.

-Sam pointed out that we should focus on the quality of pidge checks/counters in the suspect meta and frankly some are still amazing. P2 is the most notable as it has very quickly become one of the most used walls on balance, if you have been laddering you have probably witnessed the absurd amount of teams featuring Porygon and as someone who is using it myself it is doing a fantastic job without the bird mostly because it is much less pressured without it in uu. As for blissey and umbreon I feel as if their quality is the same as ever with or without the burd. However I personally have seen much less of maero on the ladder, I have no stats for this rather it is just an observation I personally have made.

-This meta is so much more fun than with pidge, I know very well that this is not a reason to ban it yet I have noticed that the tier is more fun mostly because of how much diversity I see on ladder.

-Finally Sam you made the point that hax factor is a bit overblown however it can effectively ruin a check like umby or p2 just not in a 1v1 battle. I think the case in which hax against a check is much more valid in the sense that if a check is confused on switch in (which can happen multiple times in a battle since pidge threatens out most of the tier), it could lose the chance to recover meaning if hazards are up it could no longer be a check as the pidge user could switch into say a machamp on p2 forcing it out without recovery if it hits itself in confusion. While this may seem like hardcore theory monning it is very much a realistic factor of a mon who has a 30% confusion chance and has few switch ins that dont rely on recovery.
 
-This meta is so much more fun than with pidge, I know very well that this is not a reason to ban it yet I have noticed that the tier is more fun mostly because of how much diversity I see on ladder.
That is absolutely a reason to ban it. I think the "legitimacy" (in the uh, political sense I guess) of a tier is often overstated. This is one of the weird reasons why "balance" (of a tier) is such an ethereal concept to me. We are already playing a simulated version of an unofficial metagame in a lower tier - if we, the community, think something is more fun as a whole I see absolutely no reason not to vote accordingly. Put simply, I'd rather ban something that's not necessarily "broken" but is incredibly not fun to play against than to have a tier where I legitimately don't have fun playing the games. I'm unsure if this is a verboten stance to take but I don't think it's immature philosophically, simply because I see a complete lack of reason to vote in accordance with some invisible gold standard of balance/brokenness in mind.

That said, I don't think the above should lead folks to think I am advocating either which way in this vote. There are a lot of people who think having Pidgeot in the tier is fun, and a lot who think it is not fun. Personally, I lean the latter which is admittedly heavily informing my vote, but I wouldn't begrudge anyone who felt the former.

Though, truth be told, I agree with whoever before said that the lack of very strong pro-ban arguments in this thread has swayed me. My opinion has always been a bit tepid on Pidgeot, I didn't think it was terrible but was commonly annoyed at having to deal with it. I'm glad there is still some time until the vote, if only because I can't seem to make up my mind at all and would like to see it laid out in other's posts before I commit to anything.
 
Although I was laddering simply for fun (the 2650 COIL requirement is somehow secondary to me; if I reach it, then I can vote), I have here some of the few questions to contemplate before deciding whether or not Mega Pidgeot would stay in the ORAS UU tier:

- There are a plethora of checks that can handle Mega Pidgeot. Agree?
- These checks are prone to confusion hax brought by Mega Pidgeot's spammable Hurricanes. Agree?
- Most, if not all, of your teams should have at least one of those checks to Mega Pidgeot (if you want to keep on winning matches). Agree?
- With Mega Pidgeot out, team building is not as restrictive as before. Agree?
- The absence of Mega Pidgeot will help players adapt to the new ORAS UU environment. Agree?

The ones in bold are the ones that would interest me the most here, because, first and foremost, as much as players take advantage of Mega Pidgeot's Special Attack and Speed stats to put their momentum in their favor most of the time, I do believe that all play styles have a myriad of ways of dealing with Mega Pidgeot. People here would enumerate some of the topnotch checks to Mega Pidgeot, but does this mean that because of Mega Pidgeot alone they tend to reuse these checks all over again when building more teams, which, in turn, loses the motivation to build again? Long-term, they may conclude that Mega Pidgeot is centralizing to the ORAS UU metagame because they are exhausted in using those same checks all over again, hence their clamor of suspecting it; but is it something worth over-preparing for?

As much as I've observed the suspect ladder, I've seen the rise of teams without outright Flying resists (I've seen Cobalion more than Mega Aggron nowadays) because I think they could find ways of dealing with other Flying-types such as Crobat and Mega Aerodactyl. Sure, the absence of Mega Pidgeot in the ORAS UU metagame is actually fun; team building is way less restrictive than before, giving some of the under-appreciated UU Pokes back to life.

In conclusion, whether I ban Pidgeotite or not, I am still indifferent with the changes; besides, I can manage to adapt to the metagame while at the same time exploring some new crazy innovations and ideas. I am willing to accept any comment from this post, and if there would be any questions, I'll try to understand and answer as prompt as possible.
 
In terms of banning Pidgeotite, I'm still torn as to why it really needs to be banned. I understand the concerns and frustrations of the pro-ban arguments, but equally empathize with the pro-no ban arguments. Do I think Mega-Pidgeot is one of the marquee threats in the UU metagame? Absolutely. It's been proven to be difficult to switch into, and its Speed tier makes it all the more threatening. However, I still don't believe Pidgeotite is ban-worthy. There's three things keeping me on the pro-no ban side:
  • The 30% Confusion rate is what seems to be pushing Mega-Pidgeot into suspect territory, as the walls that should be sponging its hits end up being 2HKOed by a series of unfortunate events. This is a big issue if you're planning on voting to ban Pidgeotite; you're not banning an inherently broken Pokemon, but rather a one-in-three chance side effect of that Pokemon's greatest asset. This is not how suspects should be banned. By eliminating luck mechanics in the metagame, we move away from the cartridge-based game that Smogon is doing its damnedest to emulate. The standard metagames (OU, UU, RU, and NU) were designed to emulate the cartridge-based competitive style as much as possible while dividing Pokemon into usage groups based mostly on effectiveness, so it is natural that our tiering philosophies match up with the cartridge as much as possible. On a side note, I find it most interesting that if Smogon took the next step in emulating the cartridges and all standard metagames were now in Doubles format, then Mega-Pidgeot would not be nearly as effective. However, it's effectiveness is a consequence of the singles format. Long story short, Mega Pidgeot shouldn't be banned due to the luck aspect attached to Hurricane, as it moves UU away from the goals of Smogon philosophy. And that it's just bad policy.
  • The second point that I feel isn't being positively emphasized enough is how much stuff actually checks Mega-Pidgeot. A repeated claim I've read a lot is that Mega-Pidgeot is only outsped by every Scarfer and 4 other viable Pokemon. Every Scarfer. There's quite a few of those last I checked. Sure, maybe you only force Mega-Pidgeot out, but provided you have hazards up (and it should always be assumed that they are up), Mega-Pidgeot is coming back weaker every time, leaving it increasingly more vulnerable to be revenge killed or Pursuit trapped. We have quite a few viable priority users in UU (Lucario, Machamp, Entei, and Mamoswine just to name a few), and even more Pokemon capable of boosting their Speed (Feraligatr, Haxorus, Mega-Ampharos, hell this list is even longer). Mega-Pidgeot's speed tier shouldn't make it ban worthy then, making it a very close comparison to BWUU Chandelure: a very powerful threat that required you to run Umbreon or Snorlax in order to switch in on it or be forced into revenge killing. Chandelure wasn't banned until very few people were left playing that metagame, and I think a similar approach with Mega-Pidgeot may work here. Don't ban it for the wrong reasons, let the tier run its course, and then come Gen VII, if the ORASUU playerbase still finds it problematic, choose to deal with it then. I'll also throw Calm Mind users into this equation, as the increased popularity of Reuniclus and the prominence of Suicune can help balance threats like Mega-Pidgeot. With good play, you can utilize momentun to find opportunities to set Pokemon, such as the aformentioned Calm Mind users, up and immediately neutralize Mega-Pidgeot (barring a critical hit, but that falls back on the luck mechanics in my first point).
  • Because every generation instills yet another power creep, I think it's time for the Smogon philosophy to evolve. Every generation gets stronger, but we feel the need to maintain a balance so that stall teams can thrive. Banning powerful threats because "they ruin stall" but are still capable of being consistently checked and revenge killed is becoming a very poor philosophy. In hindsight, even suspects like Victini shouldn't have been banned. I was wrong then because I still adhered to this philosophy. Consider the current OU metagame and how much of an arms race it has become; many of the Pokemon currently in OU could serve to be suspected and/or banned. Everyone knows that. However, the offensive nature of the tier keeps everything "in-line" and in a very delicate balance (not meaning the tier is balanced, but every offensive threat has defined checks). If keeping a non-broken threat means that stall is effectively dead in UU, then I firmly believe that's the path that needs to be taken, as the forward progress of each generation is making "keeping stall viable" a harder task with each game, to the point where its becoming a non-viable option.
Naturally, I expect very few of you to agree with me. However, I'm getting fed up with the "ban it because it beats stall" arguments, and I'm absolutely done with the "confusion makes it broken" arguments, so I felt the need to post my opinion despite feeling the need to remain as open and neutral as possible. I still maintain my position that Mega-Pidgeot is not the greatest issue currently plaguing UU - Scald and Feraligatr share that title - and that I'd like to see this suspect test end quickly so that the real matters at hand can be taken of. Do not ban Pidgeotite.

EDIT: I should also bring up my position on Scald, as it seems contradictory with my first point. I'll keep it in a hide tag since it detracts from the main discussion. If you want to argue this with me, do it in PM.

Scald has ridiculous distribution, especially in UU. We have the most bulky Water-types out of any tier. Hurricane's viable distribution is limited to what, Mega-Pidgeot and Moltres? Therefore you can't immediately give equal weighting to how "broken" each move's 30% chance is. In UU, you have to prepare for Scald via Lum Berry, Cleric, Water Absorb, Guts, etc whereas you don't need to prepare for confusion at all - you can merely switch out and the problem is solved. Therefore I don't see an issue why I can't contradict my first point - while it's wrong to ban based off of in-game mechanics (specifically that of luck), the availability of Scald and its effect on the metagame, at least in UU, almost forces us into it. If given even a slight foothold, things like CroCune can become impossible to defeat because of Scald. More often than not, Scald burns can win games - it's happened before in SPL and WCoP, and because of this, most players "fish for burns" in order to win games. Tell me that isn't healthy for the current metagame.
 
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Mazz, with all due respect, all of your points are fundamentally flawed, at least from what I can tell.

1) I don't see how banning excessive luck elements is against smogon policy of keeping with in-game mechanics. If it was, we wouldn't have OHKO clause, Evasion clause, Swagger clause... the list goes on. Moreover, I find it odd for you to say Hurricane's confusion chance isn't inherently a part of Pidgeot. Its main STAB attack has a chance to cripple its checks; how is that not a fundamental part of Pidgeot? It's no different than Mega Blastoise's Scald or Snorlax's Body Slam. Of course, a luck-based side effect of a Pokemon's move isn't a good enough reason to ban it by itself, but if said luck element strains or reduces the available counterplay too much, then banning is entirely justifiable. This happens when the luck element occurs frequently and/or is particularly devastating, both of which can be argued in the case of Pidgeot.

2) The first half of this point basically boils down to "check it offensively" which of course if a viable option for offensive teams, but what about anything that relies on defensive methods of checking threats? This isn't just stall, balance relies on defensive cores too. Comparing Pidgeot to a broken Pokemon from a past tier doesn't help your case either; if anything, we should learn from past mistakes and ban Pidgeot for similar reasons BW UU Chandelure was banned. I also don't see how waiting until we have less of a playerbase helps at all. We'd have less informed opinions, less of a positive impact because the tier is much less important, and in the meantime a less than ideal metagame. It's also not like we don't have enough information to determine if Pidgeot needs to go; its been around for months, it's doubtful much will change for Pidgeot in the near future.

The second part of your point, where you mention CM users, basically just says "play better against Pidgeot" which has never been a good argument because it applies to literally every non-luck based element in the game, banned or not. Prediction is a zero-sum factor in discussions like this one.

3) Saying that we shouldn't try to keep stall viable because power creep kills it is fundamentally wrong. The tiering system exists so we can have metagames where all playstyles are as viable as possible, stall included. Just because it's more difficult each generation never means its impossible. A good example is, perhaps ironically, the tiering system used in XY UU, where dozens of Pokemon forms (I say forms to include Mega stones) were banned at the start of the generation to achieve a balanced metagame where all playstyles could thrive. It wasn't perfect, and some playstyles were always better than others, but unless I'm mistaken nothing was ever unviable, and if something was, it was fixed. Notice also how every single BL is/was offensive or supported offensive teams. If stall/more defensive playstyles, or any playstyle is unviable or overly weak, it should be fixed. I agree that smogon philosophy should evolve, but in the opposite direction you want. We should stop looking at things only in terms of being broken in a vacuum, but rather their effects on the metagame as a whole. I for one do not want to go down the road OU has started on, which, according to the way you described it, sounds very much like Ubers (the metagame isn't balanced per se, but nothing is so relatively strong that it's outright broken).

Finally, in your Scald paragraph you mention how you don't have to prepare for confusion because you can simply switch out. This is entirely untrue for most of Pidgeot's checks. Let's say you switch in your Mega Aerodactyl or Porygon2 into Pidgeot's Hurricane and get confused. You can't just switch out because you'll be at too low of health to switch into Hurricane again. You have to stay in and try to heal. The only two Pidgeot checks this doesn't apply to are Empoleon and Rhyperior because they take like 15-20% from Hurricane + Leftovers and both resist Stealth Rock. But of course, these two also don't have any means of recovery, making it easier to wear them down. They're probably the two strongest checks to Pidgeot just for the fact they're not completely crippled by confusion, but two reliable defensive checks isn't healthy (sounds like BW UU Chandy). And your point about Scald burns winning games applies just as much to Hurricane Pidgeot's confusion - except, preparing for confusion is actually much more difficult in general than preparing for burns, as I just showed. To phrase it as you did about Scald, how can that be healthy for the metagame?

Overall I do think Pidgeot should be banned for how it can cripple its checks just by spamming its STAB if the rng is in its favor, which happens much more often for Pidgeot than anything else in the tier (bar arguably Scald). That said, if anyone believes this ability to not be "too much hax" then I have no problem with it. But to say it is fundamentally wrong to ban Pidgeot because Hurricane hax pushes it over the edge is, well, fundamentally wrong.
 
Personally, I've always viewed Pidgeot as an above-average wallbreaker which has qualities that push it over the top and give it overbearing effectiveness on next-to-every playstyle currently employed in the tier- its 121 speed tier give it free reign speed-wise over almost the entire tier, and only Scarf users + the few pokemon that do sit above that speed tier (Mega Aerodactyl, Mega Beedrill, Mega Sceptile, to name a few) can outrun Pidgeot. The speed tier to me is the least broken part of Pidgeot and the part that should be focused on the least when considering Pidgeot's banworthy aspects, as even a great speed tier doesn't give it complete invulnerability to priority moves like Mazz named above. Mamoswine, Lucario, Entei, Machamp, Infernape, and the likes can all pick on Pidgeot's less-than-magnificient bulk and use it to their advantage, although Mega Pidgeot isn't going to be OHKO'd by any priority move anytime soon. It is realistic, however, to assume that throughout the course of the match chip damage and Stealth Rock damage is going to wear down Pidgeot and force it into range by these Pokemon, which does help to balance out Pidgeot's speed aspects.

To focus on another issue, Pidgeot also packs STAB Hurricane, which to me is the most broken aspect of Pidgeot's existence in the tier. Hurricane is a move with little to no drawbacks when used with perfect accuracy- like other moves, namely Focus Blast, Blizzard, and Thunder, it was designed to be an extremely powerful STAB moves for those pokemon who get access to it with just a 70% accuracy, which gives it a drawback. Much of Pokemon works because of opportunity costs- the opportunity cost of using powerful moves is almost always inherent, such as in moves like Close Combat, V-Create and Superpower. Most extremely powerful moves (namely those above 100 BP) have a secondary effect to balance out their ridiculous damage output and possible secondary effects (see Inferno, Zap Cannon as well) and this drawback is what makes the moves not widespread and easy to use. Pidgeot takes a move that was designed much like this extremely powerful moves- Hurricane- and throws its drawbacks out the window. No Guard Hurricane is frankly ridiculous because it's a 110 BP STAB with absolutely no drawback, which is a point I have seen less discussion on than I would like to see. In fact, not only does it have no drawback since it will hit 10/10 times instead of 7/10 times but those 3 extra times that it hits will also give it a chance to confuse the opponent, leaving walls completely at mercy to luck, in some stages of the game. However, that's a point I'd like to give my opinion on in the next paragraph. While No Guard Hurricane, in my opinion, is what makes Pidgeotite so inherently broken, Pidgeot leaves a lot to be desired power-wise; its meager Special Attack (135 is nothing for a Mega without the ability to hold an item; Mega Alakazam stayed around for a while because its damage output frankly wasn't that great and standard defensive pokemon could beat it, despite it having 170 SpA) leaves a lot to be desired and the same can be said for its coverage moves and movepool. While undervalued when talking about Pidgeotite, Pidgeot's notable movepool includes the aforementioned Hurricane, and also Heat Wave, Roost, Work Up, U-Turn, Defog, and Protect (which almost every Pokemon gets access to.) It also has access to Tailwind, I suppose, but that would most likely be a waste of a moveslot for an offensive pokemon and the only reason I include Defog despite my dislike for Defog Mega Pidgeot and opinion that it's a waste of a moveslot on such an aggressively offensive Pokemon is because Defog is few and far between in every tier, especially UU. That movepool leaves a lot to be desired and doesn't give Mega Pidgeot a whole lot to work with, and really only gives it two sets; on one end, it can kind-of-beat the pokemon that could "switch into" it with Heat Wave but Heat Wave isn't even that great of an option when clicking Hurricane will almost always be better and Doublade already takes almost 40% from Hurricane, for example. The other set is obviously the Work Up + Roost + Refresh set which still relies on getting near-perfect paralysis rolls on Blissey to win, since it has to somehow boost on a Blissey that spams Thunder Wave and Soft-Boiled while being constantly pressured by Seismic Toss.

I'm going to shortly focus on its effectiveness vs each playstyle, and hopefully this helps to explain Pidgeot's inherent brokenness. Offense is perhaps the best off versus Pidgeot, because like it has been said above Offense doesn't need a switchin for Pidgeot, and as long as offense does what it does best and gets up rocks immediately and pressures Pidgeot with stuff like Ice Shard Mamoswine and CB Tyrantrum it's usually going to be perfectly fine. Not having a switchin for Pidgeot isn't even realistically a problem because it's offense, and having a switchin for every threat goes against offense's very philosophy. Balance is in a different boat and has a lot of issues vs the Work Up + Hurricane set (doesn't even need Refresh in this instance) and not as many vs the Hurricane + Heat Wave set although it can have problems depending on confusion rolls. First of all, every balance team is going to run Empoleon- this is understandable, even in a Pidgeot-less metagame. Empoleon is a great answer to Flying spam in general and is a great SR + Defogger which is something you won't find in any other Pokemon in the tier. Pidgeot just polarizes Empoleon to the top of usage on balance, because otherwise balance is going to have to run more shaky but still incredibly solid answers, like Mega Aerodactyl and defensive Rotom-H. Both of these are great pokemon outside of checking Pidgeot and checking Pidgeot is just another one of their redeeming qualities; however, both of these pokemon are worn down by rocks and Mega Aerodactyl has a 15% chance to lose if it switches into Hurricane, while Rotom has no reliable recovery unlike Aerodactyl and risks being 2HKO'd if rocks stay up and it doesn't immediately Pain Split when Pidgeot switches out, since Hurricane is still doing about 25% the first switchin, leaving Rotom at about half its HP, and when Rotom switches in again it is easily 2HKO'd after rocks if it isn't above about 75%. However, that doesn't stop Rotom from checking Pidgeot on balance, since it can easily switch in once and do a massive amount with Volt Switch, leaving Pidgeot in revenge-killing range for any Pokemon that outspeeds it. Florges is a decent answer but automatically loses to the Work Up set because it doesn't even do half with Moonblast, and if the 15% chance of confusion occurs it will always lose. This means that Pidgeot has absolutely no reason if Florges comes in on Hurricane than to click it again, because Florges will always click Wish and Pidgeot then gives itself even a higher chance of getting a Hurricane confusion and ending Pidgeot's life. Balance also will always run some type of revenge killer or offensive Pokemon that can always live a Hurricane- this inclues pokemon like Mega Aerodactyl, Mega Beedrill, and Scarf Mienshao, as well as pokemon like Heliolisk, Tyrantrum and Salamence. However, said slower Pokemon always have a chance to lose to the unavoidable in any argument about Pidgeot- the 30% confusion chance on Hurricane, which turns into a 15% when you consider the 50% chance included to hurt themselves in confusion. This means that slower pokemon like Salamence have a 15% chance to be confused by said Hurricane and hurt themselves and therefore lose the matchup. Stall is the final point in this paragraph, and the ideas about stall have been all over the place in this thread, with people saying things like Pidgeot is ineffective versus the stall archetype to things like Pidgeot easily 6-0s the stall archetype. In my opinion, Pidgeot is somewhere in the middle- Work Up / Refresh / Roost / Hurricane is obviously the set to dwell on here, since all other sets just lose immediately to Blissey. It's important to note that not every Pidgeot will be this set- in fact, plenty will lack Refresh or Work Up or both since they want to do more work to offense and don't feel the need to give up 2 coverage moves or utility moves if their teammates already handle stall well enough. The only way that Work Up Refresh Pidgeot beats blissey, actually, is through rather insane paralysis rolls- Pidgeot has to dodge being fully paralyzed a number of times in a row to sufficiently boost vs Blissey, all the while spamming roost practically every other turn (if not every turn if it's being fully paralyzed sufficiently enough) because Seismic Toss is doing about 30% every hit which does wear down on Pidgeot's own health. Realistically, the scenario of Blissey vs. Pidgeot can never be accurately portrayed because it's completely luck-based; if Blissey goes for Thunder Wave as Pidgeot goes for Work Up, assuming both are at 100%, if Blissey ever gets 3 full paras in a row Pidgeot is as good as dead. Realistically Pidgeot has to work its way through a lot of full para chances to realistically beat Blissey, but stall also can run pokemon like SpDef Taunt Roost Toxic Aerodactyl (which is a great set) and physically defensive RestTalk Ampharos to check it alongside Blissey. I definitely think stall has the largest issue because of this particular set, but it has ways to deal with Pidgeot like every other archetype. However, there's still one last part of Pidgeot that I have yet to talk about in this long essay-like post so I'm going to write one more paragraph and hopefully that should cover all of my thoughts.

This is the final paragraph of my argument, and focuses on the confusion chance of Hurricane, mostly whether or not this confusion chance should be regarded as legitimate regarding Pidgeot's banworthy aspects. This is the part of Pidgeot that I've been dwelling on since Pidgeot's suspect test has been brought up, and I've never really found a tried-and-true answer to whether or not Pidgeot's confusion chance should be truly considered when tiering Pidgeot. On one hand, Smogon typically tries to avoid needless luck-based aspects of Pokemon, which is why moves like Swagger and abilities like Moody have been banned in the past. Hurricane confusions can't be related in the slightest to those moves, and once again like Mazz said above Scald is much more broken than Hurricane, because it's more widespread and dangerous in the tier. I don't think the Hurricane confusion chance is reason enough to ban Pidgeot- the 70% chance of the Hurricane confusion not occurring can't be nonchalantly passed up when making an argument, because the majority of the time when using Hurricane, statistically, a confusion will not occur and a safe switch-in will come in, pokemon like Rotom-Heat, Aerodactyl, Mega Ampharos, Snorlax, and Empoleon, and they will be able to do what they do best and wall Pidgeot. CurseLax can setup on Pidgeot, Empoleon sets up and defogs away hazards, Ampharos and Rotom threaten it with Volt Switch, and Aerodactyl threatens it with Stone Edge and can use the opportunity to pull off a roost or even a Hone Claws. However, the Hurricane chance cannot be underestimated, because a 30% chance is much larger than it seems. That's the same chance as a Body Slam paralysis by Snorlax or a Scald burn by Suicune, and each of those pokemon get a fair share of secondary effects with the given moves in any given game. The confusion is enough to completely neutralize some would-be checks, as well- Empoleon doesn't really care since it won't even take half from Hurricane + Confusion + Self-Hit + Hurricane, but Snorlax risks being 3HKO'd with a confusion, Florges just dies to a confusion, Rotom-H if it's defensive risks being 3HKO'd with rocks up, Aerodactyl dies but most Pidgeot users won't risk that, and Mega Ampharos is worn down so easily that chip damage is just undeniably rewarding for the Pidgeot user. The 30% confusion chance cannot be understated, but despite all of this, I still don't believe it's the main reason to ban Mega Pidgeot, it's just the reason that Mega Pidgeot is over the top. Pidgeot doesn't lose anything from clicking Hurricane, like any other 100+ BP move; instead, it gains something by getting to use it for free and having that 30% chance to near-neutralize a defensive pokemon. And this is why I believe Pidgeot should be banned as my opinion stands right now- because a limit on teambuilding due to incredibly limited switchins, a great speed tier, access to a set that can do extraordinarily well versus stall, offense, and balance at the same time all combining together with a 30% chance to confuse Pidgeot's next switchin just pushes Pidgeot way over the top. It has switchins, albeit limited, and those switchins are going to do what they do despite taking damage from Pidgeot (I'm mostly talking Empoleon and CurseLax here since they are the two best switchins to Pidgeot, in my opinion) but it's not like Pidgeot doesn't have teammates to deal with these Pokemon, and Pidgeot always has a chance to confuse these Pokemon and leave them even weaker until the next encounter. Its positive aspects greatly outweigh its negative aspects and polarize the tier around it to a certain point which is not optimal.

I'm sorry for the length so i'm going to leave a tl;dr here: Pidgeot's speed, access to No Guard Hurricane, and great matchup versus every playstyle in the tier along with its confusion chance are all incredibly good positive aspects which greatly outweigh its bad points, and its switchins are so few and far between that a simple 2 or 3 pokemon core surrounding it will cover almost everything that it cannot stop on its own, and then some. The confusion chance of hurricane pushes it above just a stellar wallbreaker, and turns it into a polarizing machine of a bird which I wholeheartedly believe is banworthy.
 
It's kinda been bugging me all day and I really want to just get this out there...

In parts of peoples arguments I've been seeing a lot of "oh pidgeots absence makes mons like cobalion, roserade, and shaymin more common and viable."

Pidgeot's presence in the tier should not affect whether or not people should use these mons or not. Cobalion will always be a great win con with SD that provides great utility with access to SR. Shaymin will always be a fearsome wall breaker that packs an immense punch with life orb. Roserade will always be a good offensive and defensive spiker that checks bulky waters.

Saying pidgeot leaving will make these mons "more viable" is just a stupid argument and its just a crappy reason people are using to try and get it banned, which is why I am conviced that some people are wipping out their biased posts again when I see people using reasons like that to ban a pokemon.

There is no way in hell pidgeot affects the viability of those mons to the extent some people have stated. It's not like they would or should move up or down on the viability rankings just because of pidgeot's presence
 
It's kinda been bugging me all day and I really want to just get this out there...

In parts of peoples arguments I've been seeing a lot of "oh pidgeots absence makes mons like cobalion, roserade, and shaymin more common and viable."

Pidgeot's presence in the tier should not affect whether or not people should use these mons or not. Cobalion will always be a great win con with SD that provides great utility with access to SR. Shaymin will always be a fearsome wall breaker that packs an immense punch with life orb. Roserade will always be a good offensive and defensive spiker that checks bulky waters.

Saying pidgeot leaving will make these mons "more viable" is just a stupid argument and its just a crappy reason people are using to try and get it banned, which is why I am conviced that some people are wipping out their biased posts again when I see people using reasons like that to ban a pokemon.

There is no way in hell pidgeot affects the viability of those mons to the extent some people have stated. It's not like they would or should move up or down on the viability rankings just because of pidgeot's presence
It does affect viablilty of things weak to pidge because now you have to adjust your team to have more things switch into a fast powerful special flying stab which may make pokes weak to pidge not worth it. Why shouldnt I be able to have tangrowth, tyrantrum, and infernape on one team? In this core I prepare for the flying stab but since its powerful and special, I need to over prepare.

I am sick of feeling the need to have two pidge "counters!" I am tired of my checks getting confused down. And I am really really tired of arguing about it.

Ill have a more constructed opinion on the test later.
 
Having a mon that's as good as pidge is is of course going to affect the viability of grass types. Its self explanatory why but the obvious explanation is that every mon is competing for a team slot and if it loses to one of the best mons in the tier it hurts its viability. That's not to say it isn't viable with pidge around just that it is more likely to be replaced if the team is weak to flying mons.
 
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