VGC 2016 Viability Rankings

[CriclesAreRound]

Kyurem-W, Mewtwo, Conkeldurr, Hariyama, Clefairy, Clefable, Goodra, Mega-Mewtwo-X, Mega-Mewtwo-Y, Porygon2, Parasect, Venusaur, Hydreigon, Kingdra, Kyogre (regular), Groudon (regular), Machamp, Mega-Houndoom, Mega-Camerupt, Chansey, Dusclops, Gardevoir, Blissey, Rotom-W, Kyurem-B, Reshiram, Mega-Venusaur, Mega-Blaziken, Tyranitar (regular), Volcarona, Scrafty, Bisharp, Hitmontop, Heatran, Azumarill, Swampert, Virizion, Lugia Krookodile, Latias, Zekrom, Porygon-Z, Rhydon, Rhyperior, Rotom-C, Mega-Manectric, Rotom-F, Giratina-A, Metagross (regular), Sylveon, Staraptor, Sableye Mega-Metagross, Mega-Lucario Rotom-H and the entirety of the current D rank bar Mega-Scizor unranked
Yeah, lots of cuts. Still, look at everything on this list. To the best of my knowledge, Cherim has done better than them (it's cut a Regional, sadly enough) so until they do something they're off the list.

Mewtwo made it 27 wakefeild regional that something.....
Also where did cherrim make it into the regional?I would really like to know.

All Mewtwo forms except Mewtwo Y -> D
These things don't do anything ever. They deal completely unnoticeable damage and tend to be completely harmless to all opponents. Everytime they're out on the field, they are a huge momentum suck because you can't get anything done. They're a gigantic waste of an uber slot and should not be used ._.

Mega Mewtwo Y B- -> C or C-
This thing barely has a niche in being both the most powerful special attacker and having an immunity to Dark Void (I guess?????), and that's all. Most powerful special attacker really isn't saying much though because its STAB sucks and its coverage options are rather small, not to mention its absolutely poor bulk.

252 SpA Life Orb Mewtwo Psystrike vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Primal Kyogre: 138-164 (78.4 - 93.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 SpA Mega Mewtwo Y Psystrike vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Primal Kyogre: 127-150 (72.1 - 85.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

^that about trash other mewtwos to D because they do no damage.Mega mewtwo-y is a waste as it eats up ur mega and then does less damage than LO regular.So imo that should be D and regular should be C+

 

[Derivatives]

252 SpA Life Orb Mewtwo Psystrike vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Primal Kyogre: 138-164 (78.4 - 93.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 SpA Mega Mewtwo Y Psystrike vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Primal Kyogre: 127-150 (72.1 - 85.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

^that about trash other mewtwos to D because they do no damage.Mega mewtwo-y is a waste as it eats up ur mega and then does less damage than LO regular.So imo that should be D and regular should be C+

I sort of get your reasoning for moving mmy to D but just because mewtwo deals more damage doesn't mean it deserves a higher rank. If mmy goes to D, they all go to D imo.
The reason why MMY should be C+ is because it has perhaps the best smeargle matchup in the game while not being absolute trash. It has a horrible physical def and a lower damage output than regular mewtwo w/ life orb, but the advantageous utility plays a role here too, as well as the increased sdef [which seems to come into play against opposing legends more than the physical side, and all ur taking from the physical side anyway is (1) Kang sucker (2) mawile sucker (3) pdon precipice blades (assuming it's not special pdon) (4) yveltal sucker (5) talon bb which doesnt even do that much].
We're not just looking at damage here, but if we were the slight increase in damage from Mewtwo with Life Orb to Mega Mewtwo Y is insignificant towards moving regular Mewtwo up higher, as its viability is unaffected by mmy moving down.

 

[rhydonphilip]

The fact this ''ranking'' is literally has nothing in terms of viability, it only shows useage of Tournaments.
Even when you're trying to limit theoretical parts, you straight up list things to unranked without anyreasoning outside of it not being used in a tournament.
Palkia is one of the best examples being used, viable and straight up one of the most notable pokes overall, ranked to B.... just because it's not used or ''can't beat Primal Groundon'' ? Both are wrong, there have been plenty of posts in the past explaining it's viability, I am not going to be some copy past shit just to justify everysingle poke even though there have been plenty of reasoning.
Things like Kyurem-W etc, just so many pokemon deranked witout any proper reasoning and pokes just added because they have useage is the most utter garbadge system you could have.
How does this ranking still have official approval ?

 

[CriclesAreRound]

I sort of get your reasoning for moving mmy to D but just because mewtwo deals more damage doesn't mean it deserves a higher rank. If mmy goes to D, they all go to D imo.
The reason why MMY should be C+ is because it has perhaps the best smeargle matchup in the game while not being absolute trash. It has a horrible physical def and a lower damage output than regular mewtwo w/ life orb, but the advantageous utility plays a role here too, as well as the increased sdef [which seems to come into play against opposing legends more than the physical side, and all ur taking from the physical side anyway is (1) Kang sucker (2) mawile sucker (3) pdon precipice blades (assuming it's not special pdon) (4) yveltal sucker (5) talon bb which doesnt even do that much].
We're not just looking at damage here, but if we were the slight increase in damage from Mewtwo with Life Orb to Mega Mewtwo Y is insignificant towards moving regular Mewtwo up higher, as its viability is unaffected by mmy moving down.

All the things u loose on the physical side are way to common.And talonflame BB doesn't matter? lol
And the regular still is more viable because i do prefer having kangaskhan and mewtwo in the same match over having a mega mewtwo Y/X
but ya maybe they should stick where they are.

 

[Serapis]

rhydonphilip, if you'd like I can give you reasoning for everything that was deranked. And while I'm making this post, I might as well add that the decision to put heavy emphasis on tournament finishes and cut down heavily on the list of Pokemon in the viability rankings (for now at least) received unanimous official support.

Honestly, since I deranked so many and because most of the deranks should be relatively obvious, let me cover the example you yourself brought up; Kyurem-W. Kyurem-W has some pretty awesome stats and it's typing is kind of cool, but it runs into a bunch of issues right off the bat. First is simple opurtunity cost; the second you run Kyurem-W that means you're either sacrificing a Primal, Xerneas, or another Restricted Legend that could fit your team better. Kyurem-W is rather ungainly as a Pokemon so odds are that it won't ever fit into the 'Restricted Legend that fits your team best' but I'll ignore that (and I'll also ignore the fact that a team that is a perfect fit for Kyurem-W is probably less than optimal overall).

Now before we go further, I should mention that I love Kyurem-W and I have tried (and failed) to use it well multiple times. The set that I honestly find interesting is the Specs variant, so we'll start by looking at that.

252 SpA Choice Specs Turboblaze Kyurem-W Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Primal Groudon: 220-259 (106.2 - 125.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Now, I've gotta admit that's really tempting stuff. Still, that calc is where all of the problems start. Sure, Draco Meteor gets the OHKO but on the flip side it's Draco Meteor. 90% accuracy is infamous for missing when you need it to hit most, and minimizing RNG factors when at all possible (do remember, a hypothetical Xerneas here never misses it's Moonblasts that OHKO basically everything after Geomancy). Still, there's hope! You do have a 100% accurate option to OHKO Primal Groudon.

252 SpA Choice Specs Turboblaze Kyurem-W Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Primal Groudon: 204-240 (98.5 - 115.9%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO

A few problems here too though. The first is the fact that while it is 100% accurate it's not a 100% OHKO on 252 HP Primal Groudon, and if you look at the 252 HP/156 SpD set (which some players run to always survive Earth Power from opposing Primal Groudon) you get this calc:

252 SpA Choice Specs Turboblaze Kyurem-W Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 156 SpD Primal Groudon: 174-206 (84 - 99.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Suddenly you have no chance to OHKO them. That's. . . not good. Well, how about Modest? So far all of my calcs have been assuming Timid. Once again, we have another problem. The second you opt to run a non Modest Kyurem-W, suddenly Primal Groudon and Primal Kyogre and all the other base 90s can outspeed you. That's really, really bad. I mean sure, you could run it on a team with speed control but Choice locked Pokemon aren't all that dependable on speed control teams because they rely on the speed control to function which means they can't be effective leads and if your Tailwind or TR runs out before they come in for the late game your in just as bad of a position. Still, that's Specs. What about Life Orb sets?

Well, and this should be no real surprise, if you run Modest Life Orb Kyurem-W you lose a decent bit of power over the Specs set, and Timid Life Orb loses even more power (don't even get me started on Modest Scarf).

252+ SpA Life Orb Turboblaze Kyurem-W Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 156 SpD Primal Groudon: 166-198 (80.1 - 95.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 SpA Life Orb Turboblaze Kyurem-W Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Primal Groudon: 177-211 (85.5 - 101.9%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO

Please note that while the first calc is against the 156 SpD set, the second calc is simply against plain 252 HP Primal Groudon. 12.5% is pretty bad, and by pretty bad I mean terrible. So, let's assume that you want to run Modest and you're okay just assuming that you'll always get the OHKO on Primal Groudon which you won't. Even then, you need speed control in order to function well, and if you're using setup + restricted and that restricted isn't Xerneas then there's something of an issue. Now, thus far everything I've spoken about has been against Primal Groudon and really, you would beat it most of the time. My point is that even with things you're supposed to beat, there are a disturbing number of cases were it'll be able to fire off an attack or two.

Now, let's take a moment to appreciate everything that destroys Kyurem-W.

252 Atk Parental Bond Mega Kangaskhan Low Kick (120 BP) vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Kyurem-W: 220-260 (109.4 - 129.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252 SpA Fairy Aura Xerneas Moonblast vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Kyurem-W: 218-260 (108.4 - 129.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252+ Atk Huge Power Mega Mawile Iron Head vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Kyurem-W: 284-336 (141.2 - 167.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252 Atk Life Orb Mega Rayquaza Dragon Ascent vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Kyurem-W: 187-220 (93 - 109.4%) -- 50% chance to OHKO (50% is just too much, unless you want to run bulk, which is a bad idea because it cuts into offense and or speed which you can't afford to lose)

252+ Atk Ferrothorn Gyro Ball (111 BP) vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Kyurem-W: 186-218 (92.5 - 108.4%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO

But wait, you say, I outspeed and OHKO Mega-Mawile with Earth Power. And I say, yes, yes you do. Unless of course they have speed control on their team like literally every Mega-Mawile team does. Then they set up their speed control and destroy you. How about the Ferro calc then? Who runs 252 Brave Ferro? Yeah, I agree, but once again I'm making a point. That point is this: in addition to struggling to get the OHKOs that you'd be running it for, Kyurem-W has this bad tendency to be OHKO fodder itself. It doesn't matter if the chance is low, when dealing with anything exceeding a 7% chance players need to assume it's going to happen 100% of the time (we're now verging somewhat into personal opinion here). Simply put, expect the worst and plan for the best. And hovering above this all you have the fact you're using a Restricted Legend slot.

In conclusion, Kyurem-W probably will see some (quite limited) success this year and eventually be added somewhere lower on the rankings, but considering all of it's flaws and general lack of usage I really can't keep it in the Rankings in good conscious.

 

[Demantoid]

rhydonphilip, if you'd like I can give you reasoning for everything that was deranked. And while I'm making this post, I might as well add that the decision to put heavy emphasis on tournament finishes and cut down heavily on the list of Pokemon in the viability rankings (for now at least) received unanimous official support.

Honestly, since I deranked so many and because most of the deranks should be relatively obvious, let me cover the example you yourself brought up; Kyurem-W. Kyurem-W has some pretty awesome stats and it's typing is kind of cool, but it runs into a bunch of issues right off the bat. First is simple opurtunity cost; the second you run Kyurem-W that means you're either sacrificing a Primal, Xerneas, or another Restricted Legend that could fit your team better. Kyurem-W is rather ungainly as a Pokemon so odds are that it won't ever fit into the 'Restricted Legend that fits your team best' but I'll ignore that (and I'll also ignore the fact that a team that is a perfect fit for Kyurem-W is probably less than optimal overall).

Now before we go further, I should mention that I love Kyurem-W and I have tried (and failed) to use it well multiple times. The set that I honestly find interesting is the Specs variant, so we'll start by looking at that.

252 SpA Choice Specs Turboblaze Kyurem-W Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Primal Groudon: 220-259 (106.2 - 125.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Now, I've gotta admit that's really tempting stuff. Still, that calc is where all of the problems start. Sure, Draco Meteor gets the OHKO but on the flip side it's Draco Meteor. 90% accuracy is infamous for missing when you need it to hit most, and minimizing RNG factors when at all possible (do remember, a hypothetical Xerneas here never misses it's Moonblasts that OHKO basically everything after Geomancy). Still, there's hope! You do have a 100% accurate option to OHKO Primal Groudon.

252 SpA Choice Specs Turboblaze Kyurem-W Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Primal Groudon: 204-240 (98.5 - 115.9%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO

A few problems here too though. The first is the fact that while it is 100% accurate it's not a 100% OHKO on 252 HP Primal Groudon, and if you look at the 252 HP/156 SpD set (which some players run to always survive Earth Power from opposing Primal Groudon) you get this calc:

252 SpA Choice Specs Turboblaze Kyurem-W Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 156 SpD Primal Groudon: 174-206 (84 - 99.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Suddenly you have no chance to OHKO them. That's. . . not good. Well, how about Modest? So far all of my calcs have been assuming Timid. Once again, we have another problem. The second you opt to run a non Modest Kyurem-W, suddenly Primal Groudon and Primal Kyogre and all the other base 90s can outspeed you. That's really, really bad. I mean sure, you could run it on a team with speed control but Choice locked Pokemon aren't all that dependable on speed control teams because they rely on the speed control to function which means they can't be effective leads and if your Tailwind or TR runs out before they come in for the late game your in just as bad of a position. Still, that's Specs. What about Life Orb sets?

Well, and this should be no real surprise, if you run Modest Life Orb Kyurem-W you lose a decent bit of power over the Specs set, and Timid Life Orb loses even more power (don't even get me started on Modest Scarf).

252+ SpA Life Orb Turboblaze Kyurem-W Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 156 SpD Primal Groudon: 166-198 (80.1 - 95.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Turboblaze Kyurem-W Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Primal Groudon: 177-211 (85.5 - 101.9%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO

Please note that while the first calc is against the 156 SpD set, the second calc is simply against plain 252 HP Primal Groudon. 12.5% is pretty bad, and by pretty bad I mean terrible. So, let's assume that you want to run Modest and you're okay just assuming that you'll always get the OHKO on Primal Groudon which you won't. Even then, you need speed control in order to function well, and if you're using setup + restricted and that restricted isn't Xerneas then there's something of an issue. Now, thus far everything I've spoken about has been against Primal Groudon and really, you would beat it most of the time. My point is that even with things you're supposed to beat, there are a disturbing number of cases were it'll be able to fire off an attack or two.

Now, let's take a moment to appreciate everything that destroys Kyurem-W.

252 Atk Parental Bond Mega Kangaskhan Low Kick (120 BP) vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Kyurem-W: 220-260 (109.4 - 129.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252 SpA Fairy Aura Xerneas Moonblast vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Kyurem-W: 218-260 (108.4 - 129.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252+ Atk Huge Power Mega Mawile Iron Head vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Kyurem-W: 284-336 (141.2 - 167.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252 Atk Life Orb Mega Rayquaza Dragon Ascent vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Kyurem-W: 187-220 (93 - 109.4%) -- 50% chance to OHKO (50% is just too much, unless you want to run bulk, which is a bad idea because it cuts into offense and or speed which you can't afford to lose)

252+ Atk Ferrothorn Gyro Ball (111 BP) vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Kyurem-W: 186-218 (92.5 - 108.4%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO

But wait, you say, I outspeed and OHKO Mega-Mawile with Earth Power. And I say, yes, yes you do. Unless of course they have speed control on their team like literally every Mega-Mawile team does. Then they set up their speed control and destroy you. How about the Ferro calc then? Who runs 252 Brave Ferro? Yeah, I agree, but once again I'm making a point. That point is this: in addition to struggling to get the OHKOs that you'd be running it for, Kyurem-W has this bad tendency to be OHKO fodder itself. It doesn't matter if the chance is low, when dealing with anything exceeding a 7% chance players need to assume it's going to happen 100% of the time (we're now verging somewhat into personal opinion here). Simply put, expect the worst and plan for the best. And hovering above this all you have the fact you're using a Restricted Legend slot.

In conclusion, Kyurem-W probably will see some (quite limited) success this year and eventually be added somewhere lower on the rankings, but considering all of it's flaws and general lack of usage I really can't keep it in the Rankings in good conscious.

You forgot to change Ferrothorn's speed iv to 0 which causes it to be base 150 power which easily kos Kyurem.

 

[Psynergy]

I actually think trimming down the rankings was a good start, there was plenty of stuff that had no business being ranked at all and it's better than having stuff like Goodra there. Better to start with actual founded rankings than load on a bunch of Pokemon that nobody even uses. That being said I'm also of the opinion that some things should've stayed ranked, even if ranked low (stuff like Clefairy and Sableye seem totally worthy of a rank but I won't get into that). That's nothing that can't be fixed, but if we're not ranking something like Kyurem-W now (it currently has an analysis in progress too), what exactly is Raikou doing being ranked in C-? This one I'm genuinely curious about because I don't really get what niche it actually has. Kyurem-W at least has stuff like Blizzard with Gravity support and the ability to threaten Rayquaza and Groudon to an extent, and while it's not exactly good at all of this I'd say it has a place somewhere on the rankings. I know this is just theorymon and that's not good enough but basically what I'm getting at is that most of the restricted legends should be ranked somewhere. A few of them are arguably more useful than anything in C- at least.

On another note I also agree with Jibaku that Mega Rayquaza and Mega Salamence have no business being down in A when Mega Gengar and Mega Mawile are A+ (who are both better off in A/A- themselves). Both of those should've been A+ from the outset and if S- were to be justifiable for anything, it'd be them. Being two of the fastest Pokemon in the format, offering some of the best utility in the form of weather control/making Kyogre several times more dangerous, and Intimidate/strong non-restricted mon respectively is very good. In the case of Mega Rayquaza, being capable of KOing every relevant Pokemon in the format with little to no prior damage (bar Cresselia unless you're running SD since everything drops to a +2 DA) is also way too good to be anywhere below A+. If nothing else, moving Rayquaza and Mega Salamence up to A+ seems long overdue.

 

[nightwolf]

I honestly think trimming down the rankings is perfectly fine, there are a lot of things that actually don't need listed in D or E because they're so bad. Like you wouldn't use 'r' over 'a' or 'b' just because it offers one extremely niche move/item/ability when 'a' and 'b' outclass it in every shape and form except for the niche move/item/ability.

 

[CriclesAreRound]

I honestly think trimming down the rankings is perfectly fine, there are a lot of things that actually don't need listed in D or E because they're so bad. Like you wouldn't use 'r' over 'a' or 'b' just because it offers one extremely niche move/item/ability when 'a' and 'b' outclass it in every shape and form except for the niche move/item/ability.

Yes true. There is rarely any reason to use all the many niche mons listed.In VGC no one would be using a niche mon because usually a lot is on the line.Why would u use cherrim and then loose the CP's u could have easily gained?

 

[Project_Mars]

Greninja was ok in 2014, terrible in 2015, and just flat out bad in 2016

Is it just not able to pick up OHKOs on a lot of things? It has a pretty wide movepool and one of the best abilities to abuse it, so it seems a little odd to me that it would be terrible. It's fast and should be able to get STAB super-effective hits on almost the entire list of restricted 'mons (Primal Groudon being the only exception i can think of) albiet with a severe case of 4MSS and the fact that it is pretty frail.

 

[Take Azelfie]

Is it just not able to pick up OHKOs on a lot of things? It has a pretty wide movepool and one of the best abilities to abuse it, so it seems a little odd to me that it would be terrible. It's fast and should be able to get STAB super-effective hits on almost the entire list of restricted 'mons (Primal Groudon being the only exception i can think of) albiet with a severe case of 4MSS and the fact that it is pretty frail.

but the problem is that everything is so damn bulky, the only worthwhile thing that is could potentiallt OHKO is Xerneas but w/o a lot of investment into attack it isn't even worthwhile, things like Ferrothorn and Mega Mawile actually check more than 1 thing at a time.

 

[CriclesAreRound]

Am I blind or the list ranks cherrim and not mewtwo?
I need a explanation.

 

[Mishimono]

Am I blind or the list ranks cherrim and not mewtwo?
I need a explanation.

Cherrim top cut a regional (I forget where) so that is probably why it is on.

 

[Derivatives]

Am I blind or the list ranks cherrim and not mewtwo?
I need a explanation.

Cherrim has a pretty close to useable niche whereas mewtwo just sucks

 

[Take Azelfie]

Am I blind or the list ranks cherrim and not mewtwo?
I need a explanation.

Cherrim actually made the top cut as a tourny while Mewtwo is really just a non choice scarfed Latios really.

 

[Take Azelfie]

Why is Indernape higher than Blaziken, I mean they both suck but if you want an attacker at least choose the one that can outspeed anything unboosted.

 

[kamikaze]

I think you guys are really undervaluing Mewtwo. Not to say it should be anywhere near the A tier but it prob still deserves a rank. Low B or high C is prob fine
- fast ice beam allowing it to outspeed and check mega mence for partners like mega ray which appreciate mence being gone
- psystrike is extremely strong for denting Kyogre and Xerneas in particular among other things
- it also has other moves which are great for coverage or support such as a flamethrower or fire blast for ferro weak teams and wisp to neuter kangashkhan.

And if we are really just flashing around event finishes, Mewtwo was on the winning team from the Italy regional last month. (Notably that team did have a mega rayquaza)

EDIT: I added an explanation and fixed bad grammar because I was typing on my phone before

 

[Derivatives]

Both infernape and blaziken suffer from bad matchups all around aside from a few like Kangaskhan and Mawile, and there's no difference in performance against those two that favors blaziken, especially Kangaskhan. Infernape also has like 10x more utility in its movepool than blaziken.

 

[R-B-Y]

I think you guys are really undervaluing Mewtwo. Not to say it should be anywhere near the A tier but it prob still deserves a rank. Low B or high C is prob fine
- fast ice beam allowing it to outspeed and check mega mence for partners like mega ray which appreciate mence being gone
- psystrike is extremely strong for denting Kyogre and Xerneas in particular among other things
- it also has other moves which are great for coverage or support such as a flamethrower or fire blast for ferro weak teams and wisp to neuter kangashkhan.

And if we are really just flashing around event finishes, Mewtwo was on the winning team from the Italy regional last month. (Notably that team did have a mega rayquaza)

EDIT: I added an explanation and fixed bad grammar because I was typing on my phone before

agreed. also, we should not base the viability on just events. that is a very subjective and unreliable way of basing the rankings. mewtwo is better than cherrim. it should be on the rankings

 

[Firebird101]

Agreed. The top cut in tournaments are just small percentage of battles between good players so ignoring the rest or overblowing these top percentage would just give a bad representation of the meta. I would like nominations to come more from experience using said mons so we can value what it brings to the table and how it function best in the metagame. I prefer not to speak about mons I haven't tried out for real for these reasons, and as mentioned before Mewtwo surely has something of worth to be used as it is fast and hits pretty hard. I actually recall someone getting a lot of success in a tourney using Mewtwo and Suicune in this meta, two mons almost never seen nowadays (can't remember who and where though ^_^') so I feel the viability rankings are sincerely lacking but of course given that the year has only begun recently we have barely explored the meta so there are bound to be lots of hidden potential. I certainly don't want to disregard any of the restricted legendaries no matter how much "opportunity cost" they may have simply because they all have the power and bulk to keep up with the rest of the powerhouses in the meta.

And I agree with Jibaku's points in previous page about the rankings, we should at the very least have a proper understanding what the S and A rankings should look like.

 

[Demantoid]

Nominating Bronzong to B-\C+

Bronzong has seen relatively good success lately with 2nd and 5th at regionals. The most important niche it has is a Trick Room setter that resists Xerneas. Its Gyro Ball does a lot more to set-up Xerneas than Dialga's Flash Cannon, potentially ohkoing depending on the sets while also not taking up a restricted slot. It has relatively good bulk that lets it survive attacks like Kyogre's Water Spout. When heavy rain is up it's practically immune to PDon's attacks due to Levitate, and Skill Swap can also reset the rain. Standard 6 teams struggle to deal with Bronzong/Primal Kyogre. Reason it shouldn't be too high is because it does pathetic damage to a lot of things like the primals.

Also the regionals teams could all be found here: http://nuggetbridge.com/forums/topic/22170-world-regionals-nationals-usage-statistics/

 

[ProjectTitan313]

Nominating Bronzong to B-\C+

Bronzong has seen relatively good success lately with 2nd and 5th at regionals. The most important niche it has is a Trick Room setter that resists Xerneas. Its Gyro Ball does a lot more to set-up Xerneas than Dialga's Flash Cannon, potentially ohkoing depending on the sets while also not taking up a restricted slot. It has relatively good bulk that lets it survive attacks like Kyogre's Water Spout. When heavy rain is up it's practically immune to PDon's attacks due to Levitate, and Skill Swap can also reset the rain. Standard 6 teams struggle to deal with Bronzong/Primal Kyogre. Reason it shouldn't be too high is because it does pathetic damage to a lot of things like the primals.

Also the regionals teams could all be found here: http://nuggetbridge.com/forums/topic/22170-world-regionals-nationals-usage-statistics/

Bronzong is hilarious, it isn't the twat it was in Gen 5 but oh well. Problem it has as compared to Dialga is, primarily, damage. Dialga hurts. Like, a lot. Bronzong doesn't hurt unless you're an offensive Xerneas.
Heavy Rain Bronzong sounds really funny to me though, if only Gen 6 hadn't derped Steel types. Bronzong hates Darkspam.

 

[nightwolf]

Agreed. The top cut in tournaments are just small percentage of battles between good players so ignoring the rest or overblowing these top percentage would just give a bad representation of the meta. I would like nominations to come more from experience using said mons so we can value what it brings to the table and how it function best in the metagame. I prefer not to speak about mons I haven't tried out for real for these reasons, and as mentioned before Mewtwo surely has something of worth to be used as it is fast and hits pretty hard. I actually recall someone getting a lot of success in a tourney using Mewtwo and Suicune in this meta, two mons almost never seen nowadays (can't remember who and where though ^_^') so I feel the viability rankings are sincerely lacking but of course given that the year has only begun recently we have barely explored the meta so there are bound to be lots of hidden potential. I certainly don't want to disregard any of the restricted legendaries no matter how much "opportunity cost" they may have simply because they all have the power and bulk to keep up with the rest of the powerhouses in the meta.

And I agree with Jibaku's points in previous page about the rankings, we should at the very least have a proper understanding what the S and A rankings should look like.

Sure they're small percentages but they have a lot more merit than peoples personal feelings and hunches. A lot of people around here like to test teams and mons so when they offer up changes, they end up bringing more information than the casual fan that goes; "WTF why is my favorite pokemon not ranked or ranked lower than _____? Y'all are noobs that don't know how to play with it, I demand that it gets bumped up to S+ right now!!!11111!!!!!!11111111111!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!"

The problem with Mewtwo is that it has to compete with potentially being half of your limited legends selection, and taking up your mega for the team. And with so many viable legends and megas currently, mewtwo is awkwardly trying to go up river without a paddle to fight the current.

 

[Ace Emerald]

Does anyone else feel like Xerneas doesn't deserve S-rank? It's part of the Big 6 and a top tier Pokemon for sure, but I don't think its the right fit for S rank. Let me quote the definition, as so many do when making these arguments:

Reserved for the top threats in the VGC16 metagame. The Pokemon in this tier are able to perform multiple roles to tremendous effect, whilst having few to no flaws. Support Pokemon in this tier can easily create free turns for their teammates without creating clear openings for the opponent. Any flaws that these Pokemon have can be taken care of with little to no team support.

1. Multiple roles: Xerneas has exactly one role. I'm sure someone out there is running a Xerneas without Geomancy, but the vast, vast majority are running almost the exact same set.
2. Few to no flaws: debatable, but reliance on a consumable item and a setup move are two flaws in my book.
3. No team support needed: This is the big one for me. Xerneas needs team support to set up correctly. It needs Kangaskhan or Smeargle to help it boost, and then it needs Khangaskhan/Groudon/Fire type to help it sweep through Steel-types. I'm not saying it needs crazy, team defining support. It's not 2015 Mega Camerupt. But it does need something to help it become a relevant threat, unlike the Primals which hit the field and are immediately threatening.

Xerneas fits exactly with the definition of A rank: its very effective in the metagame, performs one role very well, and needs minimal team support to function.

 

[Jibaku]

I don't quite agree with that guideline being used to determine S tier Pokemon. The guidelines point to a Pokemon being splashable, but do not properly evaluate a Pokemon's offensive presence. Xerneas may have flaws but they're coverable and it's -the- deadliest sweeper in the metagame with redirection support (this part is important because I've used Xern with Fake Out and Intimidate support and it's been underwhelming, but it has shown the ability to absolutely terrorize games with redirection with decent consistency). The quality of its single strength should be taken into account more for its tiering purposes, and I think Xerneas should remain in S for that reason, despite being very one dimensional.