Announcement np: SM OU Suspect Process, Round 1 - Digital Love - Genesect is now banned

[BReady]

Hello,

Genesect is extremely unique due to it's ability Download; which may raise Genesect's attack or Sp. attack by one stage. As if an instant stage raise isn't bad enough Genesect's move pool allows it to run a variant of sets. It can run a special set carrying specs with moves such as: flamethrower, bug buzz, ice beam and thunderbolt. It can run a physical set with choice band and accompany moves such as: u-turn, iron head, zen headbutt and extremespeed. Life orb, choice scarf and Ebelt are also other sets Genesect can run. With that said, this makes Genesect unpredictable and I feel very unhealthy for the Meta.

Therefore, I conclude that I will be voting Ban.

 

[GH[O]ST]

This is why using replays as evidence is bad in suspect discussion. The person who posted the replays only did so because ABR demanded that evidence using actual plays be used instead of paper arguments, and the replay of ABR vs Dice was used because a.) it had the person who asked for that kind of evidence and b.) their opponent was an established player on smogon and c.) it proves that at objectively high level play that Genesect puts in work.

Yes Dice and ABR are going to make mistakes but even high level players make mistakes.

Sure one of them could have done something different but I think the replays demonstrate exactly what it was intended to show ABR: genesect in the hands of competent players will always be threatening and counterplay at even high level can be minimal especially when you're facing against a competent player with Genesect.

I really want to stop discussing replays in general though because it invites cherry-picking and leads nowhere. The posted replays made their points but cherry picking from here or posting more would derail conversation.

(Oh, I made requirements, and the metagame right now is so much more stable and fun and im finding I can be very creative in my building. The meta is enjoyable so much I might not even push for gren/lele bans. Genesect ban is going to make for a great and stable meta imo.)

I understand that even the best players make mistakes. That is precisely why the replay does not make the point you're implying it's making - there was no high level counter play in the first replay to prove that counterplay is largely futile. I've already given various examples and explanations regarding how the first replay does not prove that Genesect is broken. Counterplay against Genesect was available from the very beginning of the match.. and in the second replay Genesect blew massive holes in ABR's team right off the bat due to hax...it happens.

I don't see any problem with discussing replays. They have the potential to serve as excellent cases that highlight points trying to be made by either side. There's nothing wrong with replays if they are analyzed thoroughly and well.

 

[pika pal]

You're right that ABR's genesect could've just U-Turned out on Turn 1. You're right that SR, by itself is not even the worst choice. In the end, Dice did get his Stealth Rocks up, which is at least something (kind of function as a suicide lead). But consider these: Why, if Genesect is such a huge threat, both in general and to Dice's team, did he not try to go for the kill? Perhaps more importantly, why did Dice decide to save his basically dead and useless Heatran at the huge cost of momentum, especially when he had the ability to determine which set ABR was running (like you noted only E-belt could break 90% without OHKOing). Attacking with a fire move aside, the optimal way of playing that was both preventing Genesect from crippling Heatran and forfeiting momentum, but instead Dice gave ABR both.

People are also ignoring the massive risk ABR had to take by staying in and going for the HP Ground, when the most likely scenario is Genesect getting OHKO'd if both ABR and Dice decide to go for attacks. It's like keeping your tyranitar on Lando-T or garchomp in gen 6 so you can ice beam, or using natural gift talonflames...that is the whole point of lure sets except this time ABR didn't have the luxury of hitting on a switch. The odds were against the Genesect user even with HP ground.

If Genesect is running Psychic or Zen Headbutt, it loses out on other coverage and becomes easier to handle by the rest of the team. I mean we can say things like greninja, zard x, metagross are virtually impossible to switch into (well m-scizor can switch into m-metagross) if they all carry the exact moveset that allow them to subvert a choice of answer if needed.

Genesect looks broken on paper because everyone assumes that Genesect will always have the momentum and that the Genesect user makes flawless predictions and happens to have given Genesect the exact 4 moves that could sweep the team in front of him. In reality, Genesect will have 4mss, will not always have momentum and be forced to switch out, will be locked into some weak move, be susceptible to revenge kill, be unable to 1v1 the pokemon in front of it and die, etc.

To respond a bit

Why, if Genesect is such a huge threat, both in general and to Dice's team, did he not try to go for the kill?

Because as noted, the sane move for any Genesect set that didn't have the tool to kill Heatran there was to switch out, and the SR setting was a more productive use of the turn than using a resisted/absorbed Fire move on the most likely switch ins Dice most likely predicted that and chose to try and get his hazards out. Tyranitar isn't going to stay in on anything that obviously has a Fighting type move (or a very strong Ground/Water/Grass/etc move) if he can't KO it before it goes off, so using the Fighting move in most scenarios isn't the optimal play so much as threatening it to accomplish something else.

Genesect's playstyle very often involves forcing switches and pivoting out. It's not going to stay in against something that very obviously has a STAB on its weakness, but it will have to come back into the match multiple times. Heatran can check Genesect (most sets at least), but odds are he's not going to land a Fire move against Genesect in the process of doing so. Those rocks would probably do more damage to Genesect (through Heatran) than any attacking move it'd throw out.

If Genesect is running Psychic or Zen Headbutt, it loses out on other coverage and becomes easier to handle by the rest of the team.

While true, this is the same that can be said already of HP Ground or Douse Drive. Genesect is not expected to have every single move at once, but you have to be prepared for the fact that he can run any 4 of a very varied movepool to handle whatever the team expects to be thrown at him. My point was that he has a coverage option to dig up if it becomes his best lure option for what the meta favors as his check, whether by usage or by trends. To relate on principle (though again by no means on degree), Aegislash' varying sets were similar: it couldn't run Crumbler, SD + 3 Attacks, Head Smash Lures, and SubToxic all at once, but the meta had to be prepared for any of them, and the solution for Aegislash mostly amounted to "run whichever set has the least common checks right now". The Psychic coverage mentioned isn't some panacea against the noted issues the mon faces, it's another symptom of the versatility and tall-order of scouting it when it has dozens of options.

Genesect looks broken on paper because everyone assumes that Genesect will always have the momentum and that the Genesect user makes flawless predictions and happens to have given Genesect the exact 4 moves that could sweep the team in front of him. In reality, Genesect will have 4mss, will not always have momentum and be forced to switch out, will be locked into some weak move, be susceptible to revenge kill, be unable to 1v1 the pokemon in front of it and die, etc.

Flawless prediction might be an exaggeration, but I think it's fair to say a Genesect user, at the level where their play is relevant to evaluating the mon's impact, will be proficient enough at prediction to get the mileage they need out of their Genesect. You can say this means a skilled opponent will have similarly good prediction, but the nature of Genesect, where optimal counterplay is based entirely rather than partially or even primarily on prediction for a significant part of the match, means that the opposing player is risking much more on their predictions than the Genesect user in the majority of situations.

Genesect is not about having the 4 moves to sweep the team it's fighting itself, it's about having the 4 moves to put its team in a position to sweep, which its proficiency in generating momentum with U-Turn and generally breaking balance cores is already strong at. And while Genesect will obviously not have all its moves at once, the opponent takes a serious risk assuming/predicting whatever it has, which they have to do in some capacity at the very least in the early game, possibly for quite a bit more if their team really depends on something Genesect can try to lure.

This is a mon that is very difficult to keep/take momentum away from, as consistent answers to Genesect itself are few and far between, and very often are mons a team has to account for with or without the bug. It's not a tall order to overload a Heatran or a Mega Venusaur or an Alolawak. Genesect's not exactly a weak mon, Download and generally effective coverage + BP is one reason it can effectively run Choice sets to this effect in the Meta, and it's hard to call the lock-in move weak when Genesect is very often clicking U-Turn, whether it be a Choiced option, a generally optimal play, or simply to keep concealed if it's Choiced or not. It may not 1v1 everything, or even the majority of mons people use against it, but being able to beat Genesect 1v1 and stopping it from snatching momentum or firing off strong coverage are two entirely different matters. Going back to the ABR v Dice replay, Heatran beats Genesect 1 v 1, but do you see why he picked Stealth Rock? Because Genesect probably isn't going to stay in, and whether Heatran switches or attacks, Genesect gives ABR the switch initiative, so SR is the one way to give some lasting impact to that turn when Genesect inevitably swings the momentum to his side. Dice's Heatran beats Genesect 1 v 1, but Keldeo or (potentially) ABR's Heatran beats him in turn 1 v 1, and the latter match up is the one the turn ends on and puts Dice on the defensive/reactionary position.

The flow of momentum isn't governed just by what match up the round starts on (to determine actions and prediction for both sides), but by what match up the round ends on (and the consequences of that round and how they limit the options either player can take next round based on things like status, hazard situation, remaining health, and predicted threat from the actions taken), and Genesect is a mon who's very good at controlling, or at least influencing, both of those moments, compared to mons like U-Turn Landorus-T or Scizor mostly influencing the end of the round.

 

[Sergeant Spooky]

I don't see any problem with discussing replays. They have the potential to serve as excellent cases that highlight points trying to be made by either side. There's nothing wrong with replays if they are analyzed thoroughly and well.

I really disagree. The discussion shouldn't be about how a pokemon performs in a singular match, it should be about its effect on the meta. There will be matches were genesect dies without doing anything, and matches where it cleans an entire team in the endgame with banded +1 espeed. It really doesn't matter, because in either case someone is gonna say "oh, this wouldn't have happened if player had done [perfectly optimal play.]"

Replays can help support and argument but right now there is way too much focus in what happened on the replays.

 

[TURBODERP]

I really disagree. The discussion shouldn't be about how a pokemon performs in a singular match, it should be about its effect on the meta. There will be matches were genesect dies without doing anything, and matches where it cleans an entire team in the endgame with banded +1 espeed. It really doesn't matter, because in either case someone is gonna say "oh, this wouldn't have happened if player had done [perfectly optimal play.]"

Replays can help support and argument but right now there is way too much focus in what happened on the replays.

I agree, people tend to focus on replays and then use them as absolute proof of the extent of the suspect's potential (since it's "proof"). If you really wanted to use replays as your primary evidence, you'd need a vastly larger sample size, ideally across mid-to-Tour level players, with multiple team archetypes (with and opposing Genesect) and multiple sets being shown.

 

[Twilightphoenix10]

Using replays as proof or evidence requires a much larger sample size because it is the most basic principle of investigation and experimentation, a.k.a. the scientific method. Unless the sample size is large enough to encompase the majority of the population size on a statistical level (like 3 out of every 5 or something like that) and at various levels of play and using various styles of play you won't get any actual proof or evidence and that would take way more time and energy than anyone is willing to put in. Then there is also the issue of players having set up certain situations and agreeing on an outcome before hand. I'm not saying that's what ABR and Dice did in those replays, just that it is a possibility that could happen during such an experiment which can scew results. Without doing this and taking all of these things into account you have nothing more than random anomalies and situations that can occure both naturally and unaturally. So let us please put the whole replay thing to bed and leave it there...forever.

 

[GaRgAnt]

Genesect just isn't as strong as a lot of people in this thread seem to think. Any player can determine Genesect's set with a high level of certainty from its first move using just their brain and maybe a damage calculator. Genesect is like the fourth best Pokemon in OU behind Mega Metagross, Tapu Lele, and Greninja.

Alright, so I've been busy, but let's try to address this:

1. Megagross avoided a ban last generation because it was probably the most potent case of Four-Moveslot Syndrome out there. It indeed has an answer to everything- but it can't actually run everything. So what is this different from Genesect? Well, lacking U-turn is kind of important, as is the potency of Metagross as a mixed threat- or lack thereof, so to speak. You KNOW Metagross will run a steel move, it will PROBABLY run Zen Headbutt, and it will then run two coverage moves, or one coverage move and Bullet Punch just in case. That's it. Genesect almost always has U-turn unless it's a non-Choiced set that isn't running Expert Belt to bluff a Choice item, it pretty much always has the BoltBeam combination unless it's Banded, and the fourth move for Choice sets is up to the player- but U-turn alone makes it much more potent as a theorymon threat because momentum is still paramount. And if it's not choiced, then congratulations- You're dealing with a cleaner variant that probably has enough power to wipe the rest of your team if the Genesect user has good timing. So Megagross, while a good pivot offensively, doesn't really gain momentum, losing Clear Body is actually something of a big deal because Therian Landorus is pretty common nowadays, and you KNOW what it's going to run. Genesect is a slot machine of "let's see how I want to break your face off today."

2. Yes, Tapu Lele's base 130 special attack and Psychic Terrain is pretty busted- but there's actually plenty of checks to her, with Celesteela and even a Greninja/Toxapex if you're willing to mindgame them hard enough. (Tapu Lele is pretty much always Choiced, you need the raw power or speed and Life Orb can get really risky since the Tapus are all vulnerable to all three entry hazards) Oh, and Metagross. Unless the Tapu Lele user is randomly running ShadowbBall specifically on the switch/is scarfed and managed to inflict prior damage to Metagross, Megagross will always OHKO with... well... anything steel that's Iron Head or stronger.

3. Yes, we know, Ash Greninja OP- up until the point you realize it's vulnerable to all three entry hazards and is walled by Ferrothorn/the pillows/specially defensive Toxapexes, barring a flinch or two and revenge killed by anything with strong priority/Pheromosa, right?

Here's a list of things far less competitive than Genesect: Shedinja, Mega Sableye Stall, Trick Room, and any form of Baton Pass.

1. Shedinja dies to entry hazards, Leech Seed, weather, etc. so I really don't know what the fuck you're talking about here lol. Nice Focus Sash bro, you sure defended your Shedinja well from those entry hazards with your defogger, now deal with my Celesteela's Leech Seed/my weather setter/my Toxic user/my reapplication of entry hazards.

2. Mega Sableye, okay, yes, that thing is a massive bitch, but I guess Tapu Lele existing is pretty nice, huh? And even when you're dealing with it in a stall setting, you can always use Psyshock on the incoming pillowcase. It's also pretty bad against bulky substitute users like Buzzwole or even Zygarde (Switching them in is the problem, but hey.)

3. Trick Room is hard to deal with? Sure, Mental Herb is pretty damn great, but Trick Room offense is still vulnerable to priority, and Trick Room is still very constrained as for when it's actually a threat in the match- after Trick Room's usage, Trick Room only lasts for four turns, and it's rather easy to predict what happens next (Hint: They're probably switching into their secondary Trick Room user)

4. Baton Pass is instantly dead weight against stall, because fucking Skarmory is just going to Whirlwind you away (And since Stall is pretty common...) or their Taunt user will just stop you in your tracks unless you make a super early Baton Pass or you have a Hazer on deck... and let's be real, Toxapex is pretty splashable for anybody that needs a good defensive pivot with that crazy good typing. Sure it might not get rid of the Substitute, but it sure won't let any of the stat changes through.

This thread feels full of mob mentality. I hope those who achieve voting reqs will think for themselves and not just acquiesce to the seemingly "popular" opinion.

I'll posit the opposite- a lot of people are trying to be hipster with their "no let's not ban Genesect" arguments. Most- if not all of them- are utterly ridiculous. Starting with the "creativity" meme that ABR put forth to the "we need Genesect to check these other OP mons" to all these bizarre postulations that Genesect is "squishy" and "has bad typing" just makes me wonder.

Also, one final addendum: It's true that you can figure out Genesect's set relatively quickly. That does NOT mean you're carrying its check.

 

[Endurr]

Genesect is a cool pokemon, it has an ability that boosts one of its offensive stats on switch-in as well as very nice offensive stats to use the boost. It's movepool is amazing as well, having moves such as U-Turn, ESpeed, Flamethrower, Ice Beam, and more. Due to all of this, it's been able to run a bunch of sets that are successful. It has checks to all of its sets, but the only ways to tell what a set can be are either A) If it's shiny genesect, it might be blaze kick + espeed (possibly banded), however, you can fool someone by just using a lure shiny genesect (i think it's become a set) B) Scouting out the set with a mon. As said above, you can't always check Genesect because your genesect check might only check one of it's sets. The creativity thing going around is pretty funny, keeping a broken mon in a tier just because people are creative with it? I'm pretty sure genesect isn't the only thing that people can be creative with.

So, pretty late, but if I get reqs, I'll definitely vote Ban

 

[Rewer]

I was in doubt at the time this thread was posted, I believe this is a close suspect because this pokemon isn't flat out broken like the mons that were quickbanned at the start of the generation, but I personally dont think it's any worse than it was in previous generations where it did get banned.

It is very powerful due to download boosting his one of his attacking stats to 508 right away (wich is a 205 base stat btw) and has way too many options avaliable due to his moveocean, contrary to pokemon like kyurem-black who always has the same moves, and it pretty much forces the opponent to play on the backfoot every time genesect is in. A common scenario inside people's heads: "The opponent sent out genesect, what could it be? life orb, choice band, rock polish, shift gear, douse drive, choice specs, choice scarf... I must switch out against this thing, it can kill me right here... let me switch my very bulky celesteela to scout it! *eats specs tbolt* *loses to tapu lele*. Damn I must have misplayed... but if I switched my fairly bulky tapu bulu into the flamethrower I would've lost to greninja wouldnt I? I hate this broken pokemon!"

Now of course just because it's very difficult to switch into it doesn't mean it's broken. But his qualities do not stop there, it actually has very decent bulk in both sides, contrary to pokemons hoopa-unbound who may get ohkoed from caterpie's tackle or pheromosa who dies to literally anything (genesect, for example, has a decent chance of living a pheromosa high jump kick after stealth rock, mega metagross has a very small chance of 2hkoing it without rocks, it can even live a specs greninja hydro pump without rocks, hell even magnet tapu koko cannot ohko without rocks) and it only has one weakness because of his very good typing (it is a 4x one, but really not a very common type, less than 1/3 of the pokemon of the A rank or higher are common with fire type attacks).

So we have a pokemon that can basically do anything in the offensive spectrum, forces you to take high risks most of the time to scout it's moveset, and it's considerably harder to kill compared to the pokemon with similar power. His main weakness is the not so great base speed I suppose, wich is true, however I believe his big qualities definitely outshine this weaknesses. And finally, this is more of a personal thing than an argument, but I did enjoy the suspect ladder meta more than the current pokebank ou meta.

I will vote ban on genesect.

 

[p2]

im gonna be voting no ban

i dont think this mon is broken at all and as others have brought up, its far too early to be suspecting at this point in the meta and it should actually be given a chance to develop through spl before anybody jumps to conclusions. gene also doesnt fit any of the other nice buzzwords like uncompetitive and it debatedly fits the criteria of unhealthy, but theres v little to prove this, i rlly dont care about the ladder because some of the mind blowing stupidity on there is something to avoid if you're seriously considering the fate of the tier based on that. i simply cant bring myself to vote ban on something that i dont consider broken or unhealthy

i also think theres far more pressing issues in the tier such as baton pass, but thats not for this thread,,

 

[analysis geek]

Im voting ban
while my initial thought was "this mon isnt broken", I did some looking around on genesect's movepool and sets. It was definitely fun seeing it come back to ou but its ability to reliably run varying sets with well rounded coverage puts pressure on defensive and offensive teams. Not to mention the download boost it gets and it's ability to run mixed coverage for each of its checks and counters such as hp ground for heatran or tbolt for mega zard-y. It also can threaten to sweep teams with rp sets and has strong priority in extreme speed making it harder to revenge kill if it gets a atk boost from download. This evidence makes this great mon overcentralizing for the ou metagame and therefore it is banworthy

 

[Leftiez]

Yeah i don't like posting in these threads but ABR forced me...

My point of view about this suspect isn't motivated by ABR at all, i always said this... Genesect is not broken and shouldn't be banned, while i think that he's worth a suspect i really don't get why you all see that as a big threat, Genesect proved to be excellent in this metagame but as far as i know being excellent doesn't mean being broken. Genesect might be an issue on paper but i'm truly sure that he's always less effective in battling (see my nigga Charizard-Y), it's kind of easy to pivot around when it's choiced (assuming you are using a decent team) and it's also pretty easy to pressure it out if you're not using passive and fat as fuck shits, then again even though you're using fat shits it's still really unlikely he gets the perfect coverage for that (still assuming you are using a decent team), in the case where it happens to be an all attacker set you just have to scout 1/2 moves and then use your brain because it's not that fast and can not have matchup against any archetype bar Balanced, unless you imply that being able to beat a whole playstyle is a worth a ban....(Hello Medicham-Mega and Lopunny-Mega in Oras), this is even worse if it has Life Orb.

However i can understand that people talk about how easily Genesect can grab momentum, that's true but let's not forget that his way of grabbing momentum is U-turn when the whole metagame solely depends on Rocky Helmet users, most of time you will be forced to use a different move so you don't hurt Genesect for a very little reward which means that your opponent won't have free momentum given the fact that U-turn becomes a risky move.

I guess your point of views about genesect are just a bad hype from past generations where he indeed was broken, but i'm pretty sure that over the next months you will change your mind as everyone did with Metagross-Mega in Oras just because he's not even top 3 (yes lele, metagross, greninja are better) and is also very overrated.

 

[nameless90]

The problem with Genesect is a combination of its qualities, rather than a specific trait.
For example, I'd like to talk about its base 99 base Spe:
* At a first glance, 99 Spe is slow but it is enough to use a fast U-turn (much safer move than Volt Switch because it doesn't fear immunities) towards balance teams and a slow one towards HO teams. With a Scarf it can outspeed a good chunck of pokemons.
* Rocky Helmet is an issue, the problem is that Genesect can carry both Thunderbolt (for Toxapex) and Ice Beam (Landorus-T, Garchomp) or Flamethrower (Ferrothorn). Problem is that Genesect can carry any combination of moves, bar the obvious U-turn, and your opponent risks to wear down its own "check" if he doesn't have scouted Genesect properly.
* Even the Download boost puts your opponent on a 50-50 situation: if Genesect has a +1 Atk boost you have to fear a stronger Extremespeed/U-turn (or its physical coverage) and if a +1 SpA happens you have to be wary of its special coverage moves. In both cases the opponent has to guess what hurts him less and try to counterplay this U-turner.
* This thing doesn't have the possibility to destroy all playstyles, but it pulls its weight towards all of them even because it is quite solid with only a 4x weakness easily exploitable and with many options.

There are more broken monsters that can be banned before this bug, but even Genesect is ban-worthy in my opinion.

 

[GaRgAnt]

My point of view about this suspect isn't motivated by ABR at all, i always said this... Genesect is not broken and shouldn't be banned, while i think that he's worth a suspect i really don't get why you all see that as a big threat, Genesect proved to be excellent in this metagame but as far as i know being excellent doesn't mean being broken.

I mean, that's fair. Everybody is using Lando-T but nobody is yelling that it's broken, it just has a good ability/utility/a pretty damn strong Earthquake but very, very exploitable typing and middling speed.

Genesect might be an issue on paper but i'm truly sure that he's always less effective in battling (see my nigga Charizard-Y), it's kind of easy to pivot around when it's choiced (assuming you are using a decent team) and it's also pretty easy to pressure it out if you're not using passive and fat as fuck shits, then again even though you're using fat shits it's still really unlikely he gets the perfect coverage for that (still assuming you are using a decent team), in the case where it happens to be an all attacker set you just have to scout 1/2 moves and then use your brain because it's not that fast

...Not that fast?

Riddle me this- in this current metagame of OU, which mons consistently outspeed base 99 speed with maximum investment, sometimes with a scarf? Off the top of my head, I know of Tapu Koko, Alakazam (both forms), Megagross, Pheromosa, Greninja before and after Battle Bond, Charizard, Kartana, Nihilego, Mega Pinsir, the perfect 100 legendaries, and the Latis.

Okay, out of all of those, I'd really only acknowledge Tapu Koko, Megagross, Pheromosa, Greninja, Kartana, and Mega Pinsir. Everything else has massive baggage of their own or are just not that good right now (I remember when Latias was banned, god bless). And guess what? All of those can be outsped and probably OHKO'd by the right move and the right Download boost (With the exception of Megagross, I'm pretty sure) by a Shift Gear/Rock Polish set. (Shift Gear with a physical Download boost is... scary.) You're right that it's not that fast. But in this current metagame, it's definitely in the upper half.

However i can understand that people talk about how easily Genesect can grab momentum, that's true but let's not forget that his way of grabbing momentum is U-turn when the whole metagame solely depends on Rocky Helmet users, most of time you will be forced to use a different move so you don't hurt Genesect for a very little reward which means that your opponent won't have free momentum given the fact that U-turn becomes a risky move.

This is true. Rocky Helmet is pretty cancerous to contact attackers right now. (Nice Metagross, bro. Would be a shame if it killed itself...)

The problem with saying "lol this item counters Choiced Genesect" (And I'm not saying it doesn't because Choiced/bluff sets are primarily reliant on fast U-turns which makes contact which triggers Rocky Helmet) is that once the Genesect player figures out that you're running Rocky Helmet, a new roulette starts playing:

1. You read the Genesect player about to use U-turn again and switch in your Rocky Helmet wearer. (+1 for you)

2. They read you switching in your Rocky Helmet wearer and switch out Genesect instead to someone that threatens your wearer. (+1 for the Genesect user)

3. They exploit a weakness with your Rocky Helmet wearer and hit you on the switch with a coverage move. (Pretty sure the most common wearers right now are Garchomp, Ferrothorn, and Lando-T, mons who conveniently have quad weaknesses...) (+1 for the Genesect user)

4. They call your bluff of not switching and U-turn out, which could go either way for you or the Genesect user- but since he knows you're not switching/he's already seen your move if you outsped him, he can now switch to a check. (+ 0.5 for the Genesect user)

That was two outcomes in favor of the Genesect user. One was solidly in your favor, and one was iffy, but leaning towards the Genesect user since he now has information to guide his next move. I'd say that's roughly a 67/33 not in your favor.

I guess your point of views about genesect are just a bad hype from past generations where he indeed was broken, but i'm pretty sure that over the next months you will change your mind as everyone did with Metagross-Mega in Oras just because he's not even top 3 (yes lele, metagross, greninja are better) and is also very overrated.

The three you mentioned are pretty fucking strong. I won't dispute that. It's just that they have far clearer counters/checks than Genesect ever will. Going to say this again: It's true that you can figure out Genesect's set relatively quickly. That does NOT mean you're carrying its check.

 

[Eo Ut Mortus]

Voting ban. Genesect is an extremely low-risk/high-reward Pokemon to use. Easy to use, fits on almost every team, and very difficult to punish due to its coverage and U-turn abuse (Rocky Helmet damage is a pittance to pay for a free switch-in, not to mention a misprediction is far less consequential for the Gene user). Its versatility is just the cherry on top of that. Unless you're using stall, there's almost no reason not to use it; like Lando-T, it stifles teambuilding skill to a large degree. Don't care about the larger metagame consequences; suspect metagame is fine, and I'm optimistic that even if a Gene ban makes the metagame worse in the short-term, it'll be rectified with further bans as the generation progresses. Don't care if anything else is more broken, overcentralizing (Landorus-Therian), or annoying (Sableye) at the moment; maybe I'll also vote ban on them when the time comes.

 

[leprechan]

Not much to say. Just because something is easy to use and a good pokemon doesn't mean it's broken. I know people are hesitant to let pokemon like Genesect off the hook because of the OU Councils tendency to just sit around and not test shit, but the Meta-game is not developed at all and I'd rather wait before making a decision that will most likely never be overturned (until D/P/P remakes (^:)

Voting ban. Genesect is an extremely low-risk/high-reward Pokemon to use. Easy to use, fits on almost every team, and very difficult to punish due to its coverage and U-turn abuse (Rocky Helmet damage is a pittance to pay for a free switch-in, not to mention a misprediction is far less consequential for the Gene user).

As I stated earlier in my post, good =/= broken. I know it's popular on this site to say "Low-risk high-reward" and "difficult to punish" but those statements don't really mean anything and can apply to a lot of the top-OU pokemon.

 

[GaRgAnt]

good =/= broken. I know it's popular on this site to say "Low-risk high-reward" and "difficult to punish" but those statements don't really mean anything and can apply to a lot of the top-OU pokemon.

I think a lot of pro-ban people- myself included at times- haven't properly articulated why Genesect, a case of "good" is worthy of being banned when Tapu Lele, Ash Greninja, and Megagross are running riot in the tier.

Let's look at this way. What do those three aforementioned Pokemon do?

Tapu Lele does shitloads of special damage and sometimes surprises the blobs with a Psyshock, right? It's also a pretty big threat to Mega Sableye. It's also reasonably fast.

Ash Greninja also does shitloads of special damage. Water/Dark is a pretty good STAB combination, if I may say.

We all know what Megagross does- tons of physical damage (Courtesy of Tough Claws and 145 base attack) and then some. Also fast, and annoyingly bulky in part due to a great typing.

Now that we've gotten that out of the way, how's this: Do those aforementioned Pokemon do anything else beyond that? Tapu Lele can run either specs or scarf sets or a surprise Expert Belt set. Alright, next. Ash Greninja can run Specs for maximum deeps, or it can run a Z-move/Expert Belt for the surprise factor, or a Life Orb for consistent (But risky) extra damage. Next. Megagross runs Meteor Mash/Iron Head, and three moves of its choosing. It does work with those other three moves, but you know it's going to be Ice/Thunderpunch in there, probably Zen Headbutt to take advantage of Tough Claws and STAB, and Earthquake, and maybe Bullet Punch is thrown in for some bizarre reason.

Long story short, you KNOW what they do. There is a limited amount of variation. Like some anti-ban people have noted, this may reduce the metagame to chess, which is a fucking bullshit comparison, because to compare something to chess implies equal starting conditions known to both competitors, something that I'm pretty sure is mostly impossible in Pokemon because there's only 6 slots in a team and much, much more than 6 possible members to fill those slots.

Let's turn this back to Genesect: Can you tell me what Genesect does?

1. Amazing Choice user, even Band sets have Extreme Speed for priority to make up for the lack of speed and Blaze Kick for surprise not-Flamethrower fire coverage. (You can even run Ice Beam for the lulz and spank those filthy Landoruses/Gliscors/Garchomps that want to switch in on you)

2. Runs great setup sets, especially with the right Download boost. That movie Genesect is broken as hell when it's running Shift Gear and the physical walls not named Ferrothorn and Skarmory are out of the picture.

3. Runs great mixed attacking sets, with Expert Belt to bluff a Choice item and Life Orb for the "fuck you" factor.

4. Has something to beat ALL its theoretical counters in OU and therefore can run a lure move on the mixed sets, or any set really if you want. Nice Heatran, now eat my Hidden Power Ground. Nice bulky Ground/Water you got there, now take my Giga Drain and die. Cool Mantine bro, now take this Thunderbolt and gtfo. Toxapex? Sure, specially defensive ones will probably take multiple Thunderbolts (without a Download boost), but... does Toxapex have any offensive presence?

Oh, you're running something that you pulled from other tiers to counter it, congratulations, you likely screwed yourself over in the process. Nice Amoonguss/Chandelure, mate, you're... running Amoonguss and Chandelure. Granted, they ARE solid counters to Genesect's usual antics, it's just that you're running Amoonguss and Chandelure.

Tl;dr: There are probably worse Pokemon in OU right now that do what they do better than Genesect. But on the other hand, they are generally limited to that specific role. Genesect is limited to no single role, and each version of Genesect is viable and has different checks.

I really don't want to spam this line, but I don't see anybody refuting it: It's true that you can figure out Genesect's set relatively quickly. That does NOT mean you're carrying its check.

 

[Eo Ut Mortus]

As I stated earlier in my post, good =/= broken. I know it's popular on this site to say "Low-risk high-reward" and "difficult to punish" but those statements don't really mean anything and can apply to a lot of the top-OU pokemon.

Yeah, of course those things don't mean anything if you completely ignore the context surrounding them. All those statements are qualified in my original post. I explained why Genesect is a low-risk, high reward Pokemon (U-turn abuse), difficult to punish (U-turn abuse and coverage to prevent and deter set-up), and why I don't care if other Pokemon share traits attributed to Genesect as broken (because I could conceivably take the stance they're broken as well, and in many cases, I do).

I mean, I could have gone into further detail and explained exactly why the ability to spam STAB, at times Download-boosted, U-turns is low-risk / high-reward and how this is completely different from the type of offensive threat every other Pokemon poses, and I might have done so if my intention was to compose a full-length argument, but all I sought to do was contribute my opinion as a voter to the ever-growing pool of perspectives and voice what I personally took into consideration when assessing the suspect. Given this, and because everything I noted should already be self-evident to anyone who is familiar with Genesect and the metagame (whether or not they agree these attributes constitute brokenness), there was no need to explain them in any additional depth; I'd only be rehashing points others had already made and observed.

 

[A]

A bit late to the party but I'm gonna share a few thoughts around. (voting ban)

Genesect is honestly one of the most scary mons to face, it's like Cooking Roast beef on your first time without anyone to hold your hand, and you're failing college, and the house is on fire.

I've played around suspect ladder, and I feel as if a giant strain from teambuilding has been removed. While yes, Genesect is beatable/checkable, that doesn't mean it's far from broken. e.g; Lando-I got beat by Mamoswine, M-Kangaskhan died to Rocky Helmet Ferrothorn.

Most of my thoughts have been pretty much expressed in full detail by everyone else. Just want to say that being able to bluff a set just by turning into shiny dumbfounds me to no extent.


(also bpass everywhere on the ladder)

 

[Eraxxer]

I think that Genesect is extremely similar to ORAS OU's Greninja. Its switchins are numbered, and all of them can have coverage that beats them. Sure, it can be revenged, but it basically is getting a kill every time it switches in unless you can scout perfectly to find out its set and then you hopefully have checks which realistically you probably won't, the chance that you are running the specific check/counter to every possible Genesect set is pretty low.

Even when we talk about revenge killing, it's a huge threat. Priority/a faster, frailer threat e.g. Pheromosa or Greninja will finish it off? Watch out for Extremespeed. Nothing is realistically switching in and avoiding the 2hko if you have the correct coverage, so you certainly can beat it with some walls in a 1 on 1 scenario, and you can revenge it with faster threats for the most part. That sounds basically exactly like Greninja from ORAS, except that Genesect trades off speed for superior bulk and a much better defensive typing.

I think Genesect does need to go. I am inclined to agree with the idea that says we shouldn't ban stuff just because they don't have switch ins. I think it makes them a very good suggestion as something that is broken, but Mega Medicham from ORAS, for example, was not ban worthy despite having very few switchins. I think what tips things over the edge is when they can beat the things designed to stop them. HP Ground, Douse Drive Techno Blast, Thunderbolt, Extremespeed are all things it can run to beat counters and revenge killers and pretty importantly it has the most spammable uturn in the game so even if you do find something that can beat its specific moveset, you're just getting uturned on and genesect maintains the momentum.

It's also incredibly versatile, as you may have seen the rise in stall during the suspect. Genesect beats down offense, which understandably has no switches, it also can tear through balance, and depending on its moveset, it can destroy stall.

Overall, I feel like it's not too late to change my mind, and with enough time we might find out it's not that bad like we did with Mega Metagross. However at the time being this thing is a complete monster and it really is not conducive to a healthy metagame. I seriously would like to have a reason to vote not ban, because I like the mind games and what not, but in terms of trying to create a healthy, not broken meta, voting ban makes the most sense to me.

 

[Tinberz]

I don't see why Genesect should be banned.

The versatility and unpredictability of Genesect indeed forces people to become creative when building their teams, coming up with several ways to beat it. I personally wouldn't want a repeat of the last generation, where so many teams were so similar to the point that there wasn't any more fun because all we saw were the same teams appearing again and again. Of course it's up to the individual to use what they want to, but many people had the mindset of: "why should I use something else when this (team) is the most effective".

Also, I don't find Genesect broken or unhealthy in any way. It doesn't discourage playstyles on its own, like ORAS Hoopa-U which 2HKO'd every single thing, being a real pisstake for Stall and Balance. You don't have to run unpractical things to beat it (like AV Drapion); all you need to do is to put on a thinking cap and get a little creative. All the playstyles have the ability to beat Genesect regardless of its set, it's just up to the individual.

Teambuilding with Genesect in the meta is like doing a difficult question, you gotta think. Taking out Genesect is equivalent to making the question a lot easier, and we surely don't want to make the question so easy that all the player has to do is to go to the OU room, do /roomintro, stuff all 5 mons in the teambuilder, add a random A+ tier mon and call it his team.

 

[GaRgAnt]

Teambuilding with Genesect in the meta is like doing a difficult question, you gotta think.

Do difficult test questions tend to involve losing a limb or two in order to solve it?

 

[pika pal]

I don't see why Genesect should be banned.

The versatility and unpredictability of Genesect indeed forces people to become creative when building their teams, coming up with several ways to beat it. I personally wouldn't want a repeat of the last generation, where so many teams were so similar to the point that there wasn't any more fun because all we saw were the same teams appearing again and again. Of course it's up to the individual to use what they want to, but many people had the mindset of: "why should I use something else when this (team) is the most effective".

Also, I don't find Genesect broken or unhealthy in any way. It doesn't discourage playstyles on its own, like ORAS Hoopa-U which 2HKO'd every single thing, being a real pisstake for Stall and Balance. You don't have to run unpractical things to beat it (like AV Drapion); all you need to do is to put on a thinking cap and get a little creative. All the playstyles have the ability to beat Genesect regardless of its set, it's just up to the individual.

Teambuilding with Genesect in the meta is like doing a difficult question, you gotta think. Taking out Genesect is equivalent to making the question a lot easier, and we surely don't want to make the question so easy that all the player has to do is to go to the OU room, do /roomintro, stuff all 5 mons in the teambuilder, add a random A+ tier mon and call it his team.

This is the latest example of an argument that's been bugging me throughout the suspect discussion, so I want to stress this isn't singling you out.

One recurring point from people advocating against Genesect's ban has been that it inspires creativity in the metagame, and frankly I don't see how this is. Genesect's ability to break past his checks, conceal the nature of his set, and constantly swing momentum to his side makes him a thorn in the side to almost any playstyle except Stall. I also don't see how a mon who's so ridiculous to prepare for in any manner that could be called consistent fosters a healthy metagame: I have yet to find a mon that can consistently answer Genesect as a singular Pokemon, rather than just being able to answer one or some of the sets Genesect is able to run in the OU metagame. This means I either have to play flawlessly (or at least better than the opponent by a greater than usual margin) or carry multiple checks to Genesect that cover his sets, and then ensure the one I need for a particular match up is kept in shape to deal with Genesect once I discover what I'm dealing with. The opponent is going to know the same thing, so in the latter case, it's simply on their agenda to pressure my team's best method of counterplay, which they can do more easily since they already know what Genesect their team is using and thus what he needs dealt with. This type of centralization for the OU metagame inhibits creativity, because new cores (which are half the motivation for innovating a lot of sets) don't hold much weight if they're weak to the metagame's most influential force: An offensive core in early XY had no value if it lacked a means to break Aegislash, which has 12 resistances/immunities (many of them very relevant) and very respectable defensive stats. A defensive Core this gen will have no value if it can't weather and cripple/beat Tapu Lele. Genesect is by no means without answers, but he's a massive pair of concrete shoes if you want to climb the ladder with something that isn't tried and tested against the game he fosters.

The ability to control momentum and force scouting against strong mixed attacking and coverage doesn't make Genesect an ORAS Hoopa-U "Stall cannot exist in my presence, infidel" type of influence, but he actively improves the team's match up against offense and balance, meaning every team basically HAS to run Genesect if it's not playing a defensive Stall/Semi-Stall build if it wants to be called Optimal. I have not come across an OU team that would not actively benefit from using Genesect over other mons as a U-Turner or Mixed attacker, and he comes at next to no opportunity cost: his typing is very good defensively, his bulk is above average for a mon in his role, coverage is unparalleled in OU, and he doesn't cost anything like a mega slot or alternative form. Teambuilding in this metagame is not necessarily that much harder, because the only "major" question it starts with comes down to preference: Do I use Genesect (in the case of offense or Balance) or not (in the case of Stall teams)? Stall is a playstyle where the main draw is consistency, so I'd imagine Stall's less inclined to step outside what works nearly as often as Offense does.

Let me rebutt your comparison with one of my own: Genesect is like if you're running a restaurant, and he's a very rich but rude regular among your clientele. Whenever he shows up, many other goers tend to leave or otherwise avoid him, and he basically expects everyone to conform to what he chooses to do, like constantly running the wait staff around to change his orders. How long do you accommodate him in this state, with all your other customers suffering or leaving for his presence and your establishment developing an unpopular reputation because you don't show some authority and tell this guy this place isn't all about him at everyone else's expense? There comes a point where you're better off simply telling him to take a hike so that you can bring a more varied clientele in. There's a point where you have to ask if Genesect is actually doing good for OU in terms of bringing us closer to what we consider an ideal metagame, and if he's negatively impacting that to such an immense degree, maybe he shouldn't stay.

Some people suggested Genesect should not be banned right now because the metagame hasn't been around long enough and that we could retest him later, but if he indeed is so unhealthy as to warrant a second test, that would be another several months in which everyone just has to deal with what he does in the ladder and in tournament play. As the facts stand, Genesect has been Ubers two generations in a row, both times for the same reasons, and those reasons are similar if not the same as the ones for which he is being tested right now. These tests don't necessarily happen out of obligation, they happen because it was considered a very real possibility that the reason for Genesect's unhealthy presence in previous generation are still very much present in spite of what the new generation has brought to the competitive scene. The role is one that I don't see losing significant viability until there is either another massive mechanics change (on the level of abilities or the Physical/Special split in their respective generations) or simply several generations down the line where power creep inevitably has taken its toll: if we do want to consider an OU metagame with Genesect, I personally think the odds would be better if he begins in Ubers and is introduced later. People are right that the metagame isn't fully developed right now, but I view Genesect as a significant factor in that issue, not a victim, because his extreme adaptability from movepool, stats, typing, and ability mean the Metagame follows his actions very heavily, and he stagnates it more than he develops it.

Finally, one of my simpler grievances with the creativity argument: I have not seen anyone come forward with an example of this, just the idea as an argument. I haven't seen anything brought forward like CBB SpD Dragonite was when special attackers like Landorus-I or Zard-Y were a topic in Gen 6, just the argument "people have to get creative to handle Genesect". When examples are not put forward to indeed prove it is a feasible idea, it sounds more like an excuse than an actual point, and one that (to my perceptions at least) can carry somewhat an elitist "git gud" type of connotation, as if anyone who can't come up with some creative solution to Genesect is simply not good enough or not trying hard enough to beat it. These are the kind of points/strawmans you see made by ill-informed/troll commenters when these suspects are announced on Social Media like the Facebook page, and I like to think our community is better than that. If you indeed have creative solutions, don't hesitate to post them, it's almost necessary to have evidence for an argument that broad in concept; otherwise, I think the point needs to be clarified or rethought if you want to really sell the pro-ban side on its legitimacy, much less convince them it justifies/outweighs their grievances.

 

[kumiko]

Genesect is now banned from OU. Thanks to those who participated in both the vote and discussion within the thread.