Please don't use this spread; it's really bad 'cause of how weak it is w/o LO and the fact that Kartana really hates the LO recoil if it opts to carry it.
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Pokémon Kartana
- Thread starter Ash Borer
- Start date
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When your STABs are as underwhelming as Kartana's, base 123 Attack is nothing special.
0- Atk Life Orb Kartana Smart Strike vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mew: 144-172 (42.2 - 50.4%) -- 1.2% chance to 2HKO
0- Atk Life Orb Kartana Leaf Blade vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mew: 187-220 (54.8 - 64.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
0 Atk Celesteela Heavy Slam (120 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mew: 130-154 (38.1 - 45.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
It's 5-15% stronger than defensive Celesteela (although TBF defensive Celesteela hits harder than the Autotomize set before a boost). And without the Life Orb, it's actually weaker.
It really needs to take as much advantage as possible of its base 181 attack. It's not Deoxys-Attack or Mega Rayquaza, it does not have moves as powerful as theirs.
Celesteela actually boosts the stat though and snowballs with it. All Kartana does is wish it was hitting harder if it uses a Z move and get speed boosts that it can't realistically take good advantage of properly whilst compromising its actually good physical bulk every time it attacks if it uses Life Orb. As a late game cleaner it is fundamentally outclassed, and the set simply doesn't take advantage of the attributes that make Kartana good/not outclassed... well, at all.
Oh, yeah, I hate that set. The person I responded to was talking about getting speed boosts from beast boost, and that's the only way you can get them with kartana.
That's why you don't use LO, you use SD. Without EVs in attack, you can invest in HP and defense and make Kartana really physically bulky, which allows it to SD once or twice on most physical attackers. After two SDs and a beast boost, you're basically unstoppable.
This match should explain every reason why Timid Kartana is a shitty set.
Start at Turn 24 for Kartana getting the L.
Start at Turn 24 for Kartana getting the L.
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I mean, his problem was the mons he fainted first were all the mons Kartana would prefer to set up on. Kartana wants to set up on Lando, Zygarde, and maybe Tangrowth and use its physical bulk to take hits while getting 2 SD boosts. Then, he OHKOs Lando/zygarde, or 2HKOs Tangrowth, gets the speed boost, then sweeps. My set has a sitrus berry, because against stuff like Lando T it ensures you can take an extra hit to set up on without getting too low (and thus weak to priority). It wins me quite a few matches, and the constant surprise factor it brings is always good.
Yes, Kartana sets up an SD against some mons but then it doesn't do much because its Attack is so low with negative investment. Then unlike the good set it doesn't get Atk boosts so it doesn't even snowball. Anyways, let's see some calcs for +2 against some answers for Kartana:
+2 0- Atk Kartana All-Out Pummeling (175 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Metagross-Mega: 255-300 (84.7 - 99.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 0- Atk Kartana Smart Strike vs. 232 HP / 180+ Def Venusaur-Mega: 144-171 (40.1 - 47.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
+2 0- Atk Kartana Smart Strike vs. 248 HP / 212+ Def Tangrowth: 139-165 (34.4 - 40.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
+2 0- Atk Kartana Leaf Blade vs. 248 HP / 244+ Def Zapdos: 113-133 (29.5 - 34.7%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
+2 0- Atk Kartana All-Out Pummeling (175 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 206-243 (61.6 - 72.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+2 0- Atk Kartana All-Out Pummeling (175 BP) vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Celesteela: 352-415 (88.4 - 104.2%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO
+2 0- Atk Kartana Smart Strike vs. 232 HP / 180+ Def Venusaur-Mega: 144-171 (40.1 - 47.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
+2 0- Atk Kartana Smart Strike vs. 248 HP / 212+ Def Tangrowth: 139-165 (34.4 - 40.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
+2 0- Atk Kartana Leaf Blade vs. 248 HP / 244+ Def Zapdos: 113-133 (29.5 - 34.7%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
+2 0- Atk Kartana All-Out Pummeling (175 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 206-243 (61.6 - 72.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+2 0- Atk Kartana All-Out Pummeling (175 BP) vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Celesteela: 352-415 (88.4 - 104.2%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO
I said 2 SD boosts. At +4, those calcs look different. If possible, I get +6. I mostly set up on physical attackers or physical walls that think they can handle it. With sitrus berry (which I run over All Out Pummeling because to me a Z move is wasted on Timid kartana. If there's something you're not OHKOing at +4, you should either have taken it out sooner or switch), It can take 2-3 earthquakes from stuff like Defensive Lando-T, MegaGross, etc. I don't know, I haven't ran the specific calcs. What I do know is that Kartana is my wincon and works wonderfully in that role.
Late Edit: Here's a couple replays showing its strength:
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-544029989
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-543999418
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The second replay is an exact reason why you should be running haze and not infestation on toxapex. In the first replay, they were many things that your opponent did wrong. Quite frankly, clicking protect onto a sd was fairly bad. Sacking off tran instead of Harding tenta was also a misplay. Tentacruel might have got a scald burn. If it had haze it had a high chance of beating kart(depending on when scald burns). Also once in a while a mon sweeps. Your opponents team wasn't perfect . If it was sub coil toxic zygarde it would be the only way to even stand a chance versus Dugtrio stall. And zygarde can be forced out by skarm or clef and would need to be played extremely skillfully.
The oppurtunity cost of timid kartana over some other sweeper is too much to use it. Something like a z sandstorm garchomp would do the exact same role but better. And z sandstorm garchomp would also destroy that team after ferrothorn was a little weakened. Even something like a z hail kyurem b would have done the same thing.
You also mentioned setting up to +4. Any good player would not allow you to do that.
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Yeah, I take back my approval of Timid Kartana. In the past few weeks, I laddered up to top 500, and at that point it's too difficult to guarantee SD boosts in a situation where regular kartana would do just as well. I think Timid Kartana works wonders in lower ladder (<1500), but once I got above that its effectiveness dropped sharply.
Is a Scope Lense Laser Focus set a thing? I didn't get to try it yet but maybe somebody here already experimented with it
What's the purpose of Scope Lens? Laser Focus already guarantees a crit. Either way, though, SD is more consistent; it doesn't seem worth giving that up for a highly situational one-turn chance to overcome stat drops or defensive boosts.
Wait, it is just for one turn?
Yes, Laser Focus just makes your next attack a crit and then it wears off. It's not a stat boost like Focus Energy.
Scope Lens + Laser Focus is a waste of itemslot and moveslot.
You achieve basically the same thing with Life Orb + Swords Dance, but much more reliably until you switch. Laser Focus works only once.
Another possibility is to run Jolly 252 HP EVs + 252 Spe EVs to ensure a fast Swords Dance towards some physical attacker. Without investing EVs onto its Atk you have basically the equivalent of 149 base Atk fully invested (with a Jolly nature).
This thing is so physically bulky (taking in account the resistances and immunities) that can set-up on something. It can be a nice stallbreaker set and that EVs onto HP helps Kartana to tank some weak special hits.
I see quite well a Scarf set to clean in the late game despite being locked onto Steel or Grass STAB is really awful.
You achieve basically the same thing with Life Orb + Swords Dance, but much more reliably until you switch. Laser Focus works only once.
Another possibility is to run Jolly 252 HP EVs + 252 Spe EVs to ensure a fast Swords Dance towards some physical attacker. Without investing EVs onto its Atk you have basically the equivalent of 149 base Atk fully invested (with a Jolly nature).
This thing is so physically bulky (taking in account the resistances and immunities) that can set-up on something. It can be a nice stallbreaker set and that EVs onto HP helps Kartana to tank some weak special hits.
I see quite well a Scarf set to clean in the late game despite being locked onto Steel or Grass STAB is really awful.
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