It seems that I have imported the wrong set out of the calc after calcing EQ damage, sorry for the confusion and inconvenience
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Resource USUM OU ULTRA Viability Ranking Thread
- Thread starter Finchinator
- Start date
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Obviously the Z-set is decent aswell, especially paired with Tapu Lele on HO teams, and Choice Band can be good in some matchups likewise.
The SD set is cool aswell with sand being more viable. It goes ham against bulky teams, leaving room for Excadrill to clean in alot of games.
It's pretty generous to have this shitshow still here. It's been nonexistant and irrelevant in the meta, especially consideing its nowhere near viable, or consistent. It's just bootycheese, honestly. Send this thing to the shadow realm with blue aeroplane and puffersMega Manectric from C to C-: "Mega Manectric is bad and people should stop using it." - Finchinator
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Marigold
formerly KuraiTenshi26
I definitely forgot to touch on choice scarf Victini, yikes. I’ve been splashing it onto many of my offensive teams lately because of its good type synergy with common offensive mons like Ash Greninja, while giving good defensive synergy with water and grass types on every team. Checking Lele and Magearna while not being a steel type is such a huge boon as well, it frees up more potential in your team’s steel type. Really solid overall and outspending Scarf Lando is really important late-game.
Regarding Mega Venusaur, I agree with a rise. It’s been finding more tournament usage especially with the backbone of Celesteela + Fini + Garchomp, and it’s notably faster at punishing Celesteela/Ferro + Pex balances than Tangrowth or Ferro is. That alongside being a grass which isn’t too weak to Heatran, as well as properly checking Zapdos and Kartana more safely, makes for a really solid niche in a fat grass and people realizing this has resulted in our mega salad gaining more traction. A rise in VR would be representative of this.
On a side note, I’ve noticed that people lose their minds when people just list qualities to try moving a mon up, but are perfectly content with just listing qualities when trying to disprove a nom. Isn’t this hypocritical? Rather than bringing up “synth is bad lol” (which EVERYBODY KNOWS but it’s still getting more tour usage) or saying “you need a secondary Ash Gren check” (which every team must have anyway, even if you use AV Tang), people against a Venusaur rise should specifically point out what trends are worse for it and why said negative trends outweigh or cancel the positives.
Mega Lopunny B+ ---> A-
I believe this mon does well in the current meta and deserves a raise ($$$).
Barring M-Zam, Mega Lop outspeeds the entire unboosted OU tier, which is very strong in a meta where some of the strongest offensive mons run really high speed tiers (Ash-Gren, Koko, Torn, etc). Lopunny also has unresisted STAB across the entirety of Pokemon (minus Shedinja lol) which basically means almost no Pokemon want to switch into her; additionally, she also shreds offense teams, and can outspeed and 2HKO almost every mon after the Scarfer is dead/knocked off. She can also pick off frailer opponents that outspeed her like Mega Zam and other boosted mons with STAB Fake Out. Lopunny also affords herself a bit of bulk, having actually solid defense and special defense that makes up for her somewhat mediocre HP. This bulk is incredibly useful as Lop can switch into non-super effective attacks one or two times and start firing off hits.
One major flaw that most people have with her that keeps her in the B+ tier is that she has pretty good checks in defensive Toxapex, Clefable, and Mew. For this reason, many people pick Medicham over her as it can super effectively hit Toxapex and can hit Clef and Mew much harder than Lopunny can; I mean Medicham is A tier for a reason right? However, Lopunny has one move that can almost alleviate this problem and gives it a pretty fantastic niche over Medicham aside from its speed: Power Up Punch.
I believe in the current meta, Power Up Punch is almost a necessity on Lopunny, as it means that her checks can no longer check her. Also, it's REALLY easy to get a PUP since Lopunny forces many switches, and is a very apt revenge killer due to her sky high speed. +1 boosted Lopunny is NASTY as it gives almost the same attack that Medicham has, except Lopunny has unresisted STAB, immense speed, and a little more bulk. Important calcs:
+1 252 Atk Scrappy Lopunny-Mega Return vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Toxapex: 178-211 (58.5 - 69.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Black Sludge recovery
+1 252 Atk Scrappy Lopunny-Mega Return vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Clefable: 228-268 (57.8 - 68%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+1 252 Atk Scrappy Lopunny-Mega Return vs. 240 HP / 52 Def Mew: 246-289 (61.3 - 72%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
These walls, supposed to be checks to Lopunny, literally cannot afford to switch into her since they literally just get 2HKO'd and die. With rocks up,
+1 Lopunny can wear down/kill almost any defensive wall in the meta game. Lopunny can even forgo Fake Out for Ice Punch, which smacks defensive Landorus on switch in and even has a chance to OHKO on boosted Lop.
252 Atk Scrappy Lopunny-Mega Ice Punch vs. 252 HP / 112+ Def Landorus-Therian: 300-356 (78.5 - 93.1%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
All in all, Mega Lopunny does not belong in B+, where almost every other Pokemon in that tier has very common checks that can easily shut them down. With Lopunny's speed, unresisted STAB, and ability to kill its own checks makes it a very viable option in today's metagame. With hazards and team support, Lopunny can do wonders as she gels really well with very common and powerful threats (Sand, Ash-Gren, Tangrowth, etc.). Even if Lopunny seems useless on team preview, she can still very easily wear down opponents with such strong moves. For this reason, I believe Lopunny deserves to be in the A- tier.
ithrowrocksatkids
Banned deucer.
If you’re talking about sweeper set there is enough mega lati and shit like av ttar in the meta to make this set lack luster in many matchups
Victini B -> B+
A surprisingly sleeper pick for whatever reason, Victini is one of the most anti-meta sweepers at the moment and also offers a good amount for teambuilding check compression.
Why should it rise?
Victini circumvents almost every conventional OU fire resist on common builds these days with the z-celebrate searing shot + stored power + focus blast set either immediately or after a slight amount of chip. Spdef Toxapex is always ohko'd by stored power after rocks. Fini is 2hko'd by stored power from full and can only 3hko back, physdef Rotom-Wash takes 76-90 from stored power, Mega TTar and non-vest TTar are ohko'd by focus blast, offensive Garchomp takes 78-92 from stored power, offensive Heatran is ohko'd by focus blast while spdef fails to meaningfully damage Victini outside of toxic. Greninja and Keldeo are blown away by appropriate coverage, the only water resist that takes z-celebrate Victini properly is Slowbro... which can lose to scarf or band's bolt strike after any chip. This is not a lot of work required to make successful unlike the other popular fire sweeper, Volcarona, and Victini can still usually muscle through a check forcefully if needed courtesy of +1 +1 bulk.
On top of that, it has a good matchup vs the two most common scarfers. Scarf Lando is outsped and takes 77-91 from searing shot, while Kartana's scarfed Knock Off is a 3hko.
It's not like Victini is some super frail "just hit it 4head" type of sweeper either. Its typing and good bulk is really advantageous vs common fat grasses like Bulu/Tang/Ferro, but also on bulky steel types like Magearna, Jirachi, and ironically enough Heatran. Fairies like Twave-less Clef and Lele are also setup opportunities as well.
We all know what Victini does, I'm sure. But everything I described above is especially valuable in the current meta when looking at popular builds. Seriously, look at the sample teams for example. Obviously outside of rain and the chansey matchup (though that's nothing that can't get lured), it can basically 6-0 when given the turn.
In short, Victini is anti-meta, threatening, consistent, and useful to the point that it is more viable than offensive pokemon like Kingdra or Mamoswine in B, and at least as viable as Charizard-X and Serperior in B+, or even Reuniclus in A-. Rise to B+ or higher.
That mixed SR thing is a really great antimeta set rn, being able to beat most of hazard setters and removers. Additionally, its defensive utility in checking Heatran and being able to tank some strong hits further helps M-Garchomp be a great pick. SD sets on Sand teams are cool either, especially with Sand itself getting more viable.
While I used to dislike M-Venusaur, now I realize how cool this thing actually is. Completely shutting down Tapu Koko, most M-Mawiles and Magearnas, being a sturdy Water resist while checking other things like Choice-locked Kartana and Tapu Fini and annoying its switch-ins is very valuable rn.
Mod edit: stop posting in black it blends with the Dark Mode.
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NuttyRabbit
Banned deucer.
This is my first nomination so here goes:
Charizard Mega-Y B- ------> B (I'd argue it is even B+ material but baby steps)
People are absolutely sleeping on this pokemon right now. There is no reason this thing should be the same rank as nearly irrelevant mons like Mega Pinsir when it absolutely abuses the majority of metagame trends. This thing absolutely decimates Rotom/Celesteela/Bulky Grass cores, which have been better than ever. In addition, unlike its X counterpart, it beats Tapu Fini, which has also been on the upswing as of late. Even pokemon like Spdef Heatran, which is as good as its ever been, are beaten by Zard-Y, assuming it can land multiple Focus Blasts.
252 SpA Drought Charizard-Mega-Y Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 128+ SpD Heatran: 234-276 (60.6 - 71.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
It also loves the rise of Sand, not only being able to pivot into pokemon like Excadrill (Be careful of Rock Slide variants) to cancel out the sand, but even pokemon like AV T-tar cannot switch into this thing, even with sand up.
252 SpA Charizard-Mega-Y Focus Blast vs. 224 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Tyranitar in Sand: 196-232 (49.3 - 58.4%) -- 96.9% chance to 2HKO (Guarenteed 2HKO after rocks)
In addition, the rise of Rain is also great for Zard-Y, as it can pivot into pokemon like Mega Swampert and Magearna and force them out. (Though it cannot do this repeatedly if they predict right, mind you)
252+ Atk Swampert-Mega Waterfall vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Charizard-Mega-Y in Sun: 194-230 (65.3 - 77.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Soul-Heart Magearna Thunderbolt vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Charizard-Mega-Y: 176-208 (59.2 - 70%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
In general, most teams flat out are not prepared for this pokemon, or are more prepared for Zard-X, letting it absolutely breeze through many teams.
However, for every metagame trend in its favor, there's also some that are just plain bad for it. To start, Garchomp's meteoric rise in usage and viability is absolutely hellish for Zard-Y, as Chomp can freely switch into the standard set and scare it out with Stone Edge/Continental Crush. In addition, pokemon like Mega Latias can freely set up on Zard-Y, as Zard cannot do much back to it. Pokemon like Ash-Gren, which is still as good as its ever been, are also threatening to it as it can 2HKO Zard with Hydro Pump or even Dark Pulse.
252 SpA Choice Specs Battle Bond Greninja Hydro Pump vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Charizard-Mega-Y in Sun: 204-240 (68.6 - 80.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Battle Bond Greninja Dark Pulse vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Charizard-Mega-Y: 148-175 (49.8 - 58.9%) -- 99.6% chance to 2HKO
In addition, the rise of Z-Giga Kartana means that Zard isn't exactly the best switch into it anymore. However it can pivot into Scarf variants assuming rocks are not up and Kartana cannot switch into any of Zard-Y's moves sans Solar Beam and even then it does 35 minimum. In addition, Zard-Y still cannot beat pokemon like Toxapex.
Finally, this thing absolutely requires hazard support of some kind, but considering the slew of excellent hazard removal options like the aforementioned Tapu Fini, Torn-T, and even Excadrill, I don't think this flaw is as crippling as it used to be. Speaking of Excadrill, this thing pairs absolutely beautifully with Sand, with Drill being able to beat pokemon like Toxapex and Tyranitar being able to trap and kill the likes of Mega Latias. In addition, Zard-Y is able to destroy Rotoms and Celesteelas, opening the way for Drill to clean house.
On the whole, Zard-Y is a flawed, but still rather effective pokemon in this current metagame. While it is not a great pokemon, it is still better and far more relevant than other B- pokemon like Pyukumuku, Pinsir-Mega, and Alomomola, and it is just as good, if not better than many of the things in B rank. As a Mega, even compared to Zard-X, it does enough unique things for a given team to justify the slot. For all of these reasons and more, I firmly believe Charizard Mega-Y should rise to B rank.
Charizard Mega-Y B- ------> B (I'd argue it is even B+ material but baby steps)
People are absolutely sleeping on this pokemon right now. There is no reason this thing should be the same rank as nearly irrelevant mons like Mega Pinsir when it absolutely abuses the majority of metagame trends. This thing absolutely decimates Rotom/Celesteela/Bulky Grass cores, which have been better than ever. In addition, unlike its X counterpart, it beats Tapu Fini, which has also been on the upswing as of late. Even pokemon like Spdef Heatran, which is as good as its ever been, are beaten by Zard-Y, assuming it can land multiple Focus Blasts.
252 SpA Drought Charizard-Mega-Y Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 128+ SpD Heatran: 234-276 (60.6 - 71.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
It also loves the rise of Sand, not only being able to pivot into pokemon like Excadrill (Be careful of Rock Slide variants) to cancel out the sand, but even pokemon like AV T-tar cannot switch into this thing, even with sand up.
252 SpA Charizard-Mega-Y Focus Blast vs. 224 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Tyranitar in Sand: 196-232 (49.3 - 58.4%) -- 96.9% chance to 2HKO (Guarenteed 2HKO after rocks)
In addition, the rise of Rain is also great for Zard-Y, as it can pivot into pokemon like Mega Swampert and Magearna and force them out. (Though it cannot do this repeatedly if they predict right, mind you)
252+ Atk Swampert-Mega Waterfall vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Charizard-Mega-Y in Sun: 194-230 (65.3 - 77.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Soul-Heart Magearna Thunderbolt vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Charizard-Mega-Y: 176-208 (59.2 - 70%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
In general, most teams flat out are not prepared for this pokemon, or are more prepared for Zard-X, letting it absolutely breeze through many teams.
However, for every metagame trend in its favor, there's also some that are just plain bad for it. To start, Garchomp's meteoric rise in usage and viability is absolutely hellish for Zard-Y, as Chomp can freely switch into the standard set and scare it out with Stone Edge/Continental Crush. In addition, pokemon like Mega Latias can freely set up on Zard-Y, as Zard cannot do much back to it. Pokemon like Ash-Gren, which is still as good as its ever been, are also threatening to it as it can 2HKO Zard with Hydro Pump or even Dark Pulse.
252 SpA Choice Specs Battle Bond Greninja Hydro Pump vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Charizard-Mega-Y in Sun: 204-240 (68.6 - 80.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Battle Bond Greninja Dark Pulse vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Charizard-Mega-Y: 148-175 (49.8 - 58.9%) -- 99.6% chance to 2HKO
In addition, the rise of Z-Giga Kartana means that Zard isn't exactly the best switch into it anymore. However it can pivot into Scarf variants assuming rocks are not up and Kartana cannot switch into any of Zard-Y's moves sans Solar Beam and even then it does 35 minimum. In addition, Zard-Y still cannot beat pokemon like Toxapex.
Finally, this thing absolutely requires hazard support of some kind, but considering the slew of excellent hazard removal options like the aforementioned Tapu Fini, Torn-T, and even Excadrill, I don't think this flaw is as crippling as it used to be. Speaking of Excadrill, this thing pairs absolutely beautifully with Sand, with Drill being able to beat pokemon like Toxapex and Tyranitar being able to trap and kill the likes of Mega Latias. In addition, Zard-Y is able to destroy Rotoms and Celesteelas, opening the way for Drill to clean house.
On the whole, Zard-Y is a flawed, but still rather effective pokemon in this current metagame. While it is not a great pokemon, it is still better and far more relevant than other B- pokemon like Pyukumuku, Pinsir-Mega, and Alomomola, and it is just as good, if not better than many of the things in B rank. As a Mega, even compared to Zard-X, it does enough unique things for a given team to justify the slot. For all of these reasons and more, I firmly believe Charizard Mega-Y should rise to B rank.
Marigold
formerly KuraiTenshi26
I forgot to bring up mega latis, thanks for mentioning them! Those are indeed checks to the sweeper set. I did implicitly mention AV TTar in my post, though it’s interesting to note that AV TTar can only 2hko boosted Victini and Victini 2hko’s in return. As for these other “many matchups”, what other matchups did I not mention? Sweeping statements should not be a go-to when discussing nominations lol, they don’t hold a lot of weight.
Something I don’t understand is when people answer a lower tier nomination with “x mon can beat it so don’t rise,” regardless of any other reasoning brought up in said nom. A mon in B+ tier is allowed to have answers lol, I’m not nominating to S tier or anything crazy. People should actually answer content in a nomination, as opposed to just stating something obvious. This happens too many times in VR threads and it results in shallow-level discussion about pokemon, as opposed to actually discussing trends/tournament performance/actually metagame related points.
bigtalk
Banned deucer.
Kyurem-B: A- --> A
This Pokemon is great at tearing apart defensive cores, and many balance teams are underprepped for it. Many of its "checks" are shaky answers to it: People often forget that Ferrothorn is not an ice resist, it takes a million from SZS and you can even potentially set up a free sub as they go for Protect/Leech Seed. Scizor is one of the better answers to the Z-move set, but can be bypassed with LO HP Fire or Magnezone. Jirachi, Magearna, etc. are hit supereffectively by Earth Power and still take a lot from SZS. Gastrodon/Chansey wall the LO set but lose to SZS. Essentially, there's no reliable defensive counterplay to it until you figure out the set its running and/or expend the Z-move.
It's not one-dimensional in its role as a breaker either. It has very decent bulk, access to Roost to make up for its rocks weakness and can check a number of common Pokemon such as Tapu Koko, Tangrowth, Rotom, and Zapdos. The fact that it can take advantage of mons like Mega Venusaur, Rotom and Zapdos that are typically annoying to play against is another plus.
Slowbro: B- —> B
This pokemon, while isnt great, I have a lot of potencial in ou, and i think it would be better with things like hippowdon and Hydreigon instead of pokemon like alomomola or pyukumuku
To start, Slowbro it’s a great support with toxic, or in slower teams, thunder wave
Also it can decently check ground types that are rising in the metagame like Garchomp and excadrill, while checking others ground types like landorus-t and gliscor
Slowbro can check common fire types like Mega Charizard x and heatran (while Heatran can win a 1vs1 against Slowbro with toxic, taunt and magma storm)
Finally, it have a great water/psychic typing, doing it a pretty decent water (*Greninja ash*) and fire resist, and its psychic type gives Slowbro the ability to check fighting types like Mega Lopunny and Mega Medicham
Edit: just to add, Slowbro have a great ability in regenerator, doing checking offensive treats like lopunny or Mega Medicham easily without having to click slack off always when switching
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I'm going to disagree with Guilhew's nomination, as I feel some things should be addressed, as what Slowbro does was kinda overstated, and stated poorly at that.
As Guilhew stated beforehand, Slowbro's amazing bulk, stellar ability in Regenerator, access to moves such as Thunder Wave and Slack Off, all contribute it to being quite the solid defensive pivot. It's Water Psychic typing allows it to check threats such as Mega Medicham, Mega Charizard X, and Garchomp, while also providing support for teams with it's amazing movepool, sporting moves such as flamethrower, ice beam, or thunder wave.
However, Slowbro's special bulk is lacking compared to that of it's physical movepool. This is only one minor flaw, but one of many. Slowbro's typing is quite exploitable for common OU metagame threats, such as Ash Greninja, Kartana, and Tapu Koko, and it's crippling weakness to status makes it far less of an answer to Heatran than most. While Rotom-Wash has this same problem, Slowbro can't provide much utility outside of status, whereas Rotom-Wash can at least Defog hazards away and Volt Switch out to keep momentum. Slowbro in comparison to Rotom Wash is also far less splashable when it comes to teambuilding.
If I miss any points, feel free to add on. I'm not bashing Slowbro, and I personally enjoy using it on my preferred fatter builds, but it certainly isn't due for a rise in my eyes, especially in the current metagame. Keep Slowbro in B-.
As Guilhew stated beforehand, Slowbro's amazing bulk, stellar ability in Regenerator, access to moves such as Thunder Wave and Slack Off, all contribute it to being quite the solid defensive pivot. It's Water Psychic typing allows it to check threats such as Mega Medicham, Mega Charizard X, and Garchomp, while also providing support for teams with it's amazing movepool, sporting moves such as flamethrower, ice beam, or thunder wave.
However, Slowbro's special bulk is lacking compared to that of it's physical movepool. This is only one minor flaw, but one of many. Slowbro's typing is quite exploitable for common OU metagame threats, such as Ash Greninja, Kartana, and Tapu Koko, and it's crippling weakness to status makes it far less of an answer to Heatran than most. While Rotom-Wash has this same problem, Slowbro can't provide much utility outside of status, whereas Rotom-Wash can at least Defog hazards away and Volt Switch out to keep momentum. Slowbro in comparison to Rotom Wash is also far less splashable when it comes to teambuilding.
If I miss any points, feel free to add on. I'm not bashing Slowbro, and I personally enjoy using it on my preferred fatter builds, but it certainly isn't due for a rise in my eyes, especially in the current metagame. Keep Slowbro in B-.
I haven't used slowbro much myself, and I'm going to assume a set of smth like scald/ice beam/t-wave/slack off going forward bc that seems like a good enough set to 1v1 stuff like garchomp/heatran, psychic only gives u some coverage vs fini/venu and doesnt even ohko hawlucha without tons of investment (or mega evolution).
You say its exploitable by stuff like ash gren and kartana, and that's somewhat fair, but isn't that what t-wave is there for? Once you're paralyzed, sure ash-gren might be free, but a paralyzed ash gren is pretty dogshit. Kartana is taking a solid ~40% from scald on top of risking burn and ~65% from ice beam, and that doesn't appreciate a t-wave either if the burn doesn't follow through.
The rotom-wash comparison seems pretty stretched, its not as good at checking mons like medi as slowbro is, and more notably, it gets worn down much faster without slack off and regen. I'm not arguing that rotom-wash is worse than slowbro or anything, I think its better personally (you're absolutely correct when u say slowbro is less splashable), but I wouldn't say rotom-wash is comparable to slowbro.
I especially fail to see its "crippling weakness to status," it really doesn't give a shit about burn or paralysis and toxic hurts but is mitigated by slack off and regen, especially when calm mind is unviable.
If you're looking for metagame trends to justify a slowbro raise, I can point you to increase in sand/rain. Slowbro is a pretty solid check to excadrill and mega swampert, and both of these styles have other shit for slowbro, but its still nice to have a durable answer to their cleaners.
I ultimately think slowbro is more useful than shit like quagsire or mega pinsir, I could see it among mons like victini, hoopa, and hippo (venu oughta be higher).
Adding onto the Slowbro discussion, I think it actually could rise for its role on Stall teams, in addition to the other characteristics mentioned above.
I used it a lot myself on a M-Aggron team and with the right spread (I use 248 HP / 96 Def / 164 SpD Bold) it becomes a great glue mon.
It completely walls Thunder Punch-less M-Medi, can take any single hit from Specs Lele after which you can switch to the appropriate wall and recover through Regenerator, and helps immensely vs M-Zard-X and Heatran, 2 of the more threatening 'mons to Stall.
Toxic + Scald + a decent enough Sp.A stat makes it not passive and allows you to make some progress
I used it a lot myself on a M-Aggron team and with the right spread (I use 248 HP / 96 Def / 164 SpD Bold) it becomes a great glue mon.
It completely walls Thunder Punch-less M-Medi, can take any single hit from Specs Lele after which you can switch to the appropriate wall and recover through Regenerator, and helps immensely vs M-Zard-X and Heatran, 2 of the more threatening 'mons to Stall.
Toxic + Scald + a decent enough Sp.A stat makes it not passive and allows you to make some progress
Don’t really agree with this nomination, I actually believe that slowbro should drop if it were going to change ranks, let me explain,
First of all the meta doesn’t necessarily compliment slowbro in many ways, with mons like Tapu Fini rising in usage annoys slowbro a lot since it can no longer do what it wants to which is spread status, which in return means your going to lose a lot of momentum since only way bro gains momentum is spreading status.
It’s problem isn’t only vs things like fini but generally struggles doing anything vs more fat mons (mage,pex,ferro,etc) and pretty much throws away any momentum you had while letting your opponent get a free tspike/spikes/volt off.
Now all these problems can be foreseen in a way but there’s still one last problem with slowbro and that’s 4mss, slowbro really wants to run both toxic/twave while keeping slack off,scald and beam but it will usually have to sacrifice either toxic or twave which means slowbro can’t check/hinder mons that it should be able to (if ur twave u now can’t touch tom or do smth vs koko n other mons but if ur toxic you no longer can hinder mage,celes,ferro and pex).
I won’t touch on this aspect that much because Sickist did but slowbro doesn’t really benefit in a meta dominated by things like hazards and Ash Gren and doesn’t appreciate the fact that it faces competition with many other bulky waters such as Tom, ofc it has its benefits vs things like weather but it’s weaknesses don’t really let it do good vs anything outside of that mu really and mons that it should wall may also be able to threaten slowbro (tpunch medi).
Overall I disagree with the nomination and think if slowbro would rise it would be if Zygarde was actually still around.
ok so i feel like the vr after this slate is extremely accurate, props for the vr team. i have a couple nominations to make though:
Azumarill → C+
i actually think belly drum is a bit undersold in c rank. it's not that bad a sweeper and i've seen it popping up in a few more offenses as of late, most notably menci's rain. not much has changed for it but being an offensive switch in to ash-greninja on these types of teams is pretty nice too i guess.
Mega Pinsir → C+
i know mega pinsir just dropped, but at the moment, c+ feels a lot more reasonable than b-. i just can't see much reason to use this Pokémon with zapdos, celesteela, and rotom-w in such a big number of teams. mega pinsir hasn't been used in any notable tour in a long time too, so i think c+ is surely reasonable when you look at some of the Pokémon in b- like mega gallade and manaphy that actually have a very defined niche.
Mamoswine → B-
mamoswine isn't b rank material, like at all. i suppose you could try something like knock off to pressure rotom-w, celesteela, and tapu fini, but even then this isn't a great breaker and struggles with a lot of the current meta right now. faces a lot of competition from other much better grounds and, let's been honest, mamoswine hasn't showed up any frequently in the tour scene as of late. b- feels a lot more reasonable.
other nominations i agree with:
Mega Venusaur → B+
i think b+ is reasonable for mega venusaur, it's a really nice check to mega mawile and kartana in one slot, arguably two of the stronger wallbreakers in the tier and something that most balances really struggle with. volcarona's a reasonable check to both, but mega venusaur doesn't need exactly support in comparison because volcarona takes fucking 50% from stealth rock and shit. obviously it has its flaws, but i think b+ is reasonable for much it can provide to balance.
Mega Garchomp → B
this pokémon is brazy, in one hand you have the mixed set which is really strong and only a small set of miscellaneous pokémon can properly take it on, excellent stealth rock user too. there's also the swords dance variant that is a deadly breaker with sand support and sand's really good right now. i think this pokémon should have been b rank for a while, but back then it was mostly personal bias, but now it's safe to say this is one of the best breakers we got.
Mega Heracross → B
i love mega heracross, i really do, but not gonna lie, i'll have to agree with ll that b+ might be too much for it. it lost some of it's defensive utility with zygarde gone and choice scarf kartana being used less frequently in favor of band and z-move, neither of which mega heracross can wish to soft check. it's still a deadly wallbreaker though, but b rank seems more reasonable alongside the likes of manaphy and hoopa-u.
i actually think belly drum is a bit undersold in c rank. it's not that bad a sweeper and i've seen it popping up in a few more offenses as of late, most notably menci's rain. not much has changed for it but being an offensive switch in to ash-greninja on these types of teams is pretty nice too i guess.
i know mega pinsir just dropped, but at the moment, c+ feels a lot more reasonable than b-. i just can't see much reason to use this Pokémon with zapdos, celesteela, and rotom-w in such a big number of teams. mega pinsir hasn't been used in any notable tour in a long time too, so i think c+ is surely reasonable when you look at some of the Pokémon in b- like mega gallade and manaphy that actually have a very defined niche.
mamoswine isn't b rank material, like at all. i suppose you could try something like knock off to pressure rotom-w, celesteela, and tapu fini, but even then this isn't a great breaker and struggles with a lot of the current meta right now. faces a lot of competition from other much better grounds and, let's been honest, mamoswine hasn't showed up any frequently in the tour scene as of late. b- feels a lot more reasonable.
other nominations i agree with:
i think b+ is reasonable for mega venusaur, it's a really nice check to mega mawile and kartana in one slot, arguably two of the stronger wallbreakers in the tier and something that most balances really struggle with. volcarona's a reasonable check to both, but mega venusaur doesn't need exactly support in comparison because volcarona takes fucking 50% from stealth rock and shit. obviously it has its flaws, but i think b+ is reasonable for much it can provide to balance.
this pokémon is brazy, in one hand you have the mixed set which is really strong and only a small set of miscellaneous pokémon can properly take it on, excellent stealth rock user too. there's also the swords dance variant that is a deadly breaker with sand support and sand's really good right now. i think this pokémon should have been b rank for a while, but back then it was mostly personal bias, but now it's safe to say this is one of the best breakers we got.
i love mega heracross, i really do, but not gonna lie, i'll have to agree with ll that b+ might be too much for it. it lost some of it's defensive utility with zygarde gone and choice scarf kartana being used less frequently in favor of band and z-move, neither of which mega heracross can wish to soft check. it's still a deadly wallbreaker though, but b rank seems more reasonable alongside the likes of manaphy and hoopa-u.
Let's be honest lyd isn't the NO ONE HAS USED IT IN TOURS LATELY excuse kinda over used? Listen all of your other points are amazing I totally agree with them but this one is kinda mediocre. I can agree with the part o it struggle against those walls (especially wash) but it also does well against rising threats like: Zapdos, M garch, and Magearna. As for those walls if you run metronome on mamo it can beat celesteela and tapu fini gets 2hko'd by earthquake. I do agree with your other noms thoughMamoswine → B-
mamoswine isn't b rank material, like at all. i suppose you could try something like knock off to pressure rotom-w, celesteela, and tapu fini, but even then this isn't a great breaker and struggles with a lot of the current meta right now. faces a lot of competition from other much better grounds and, let's been honest, mamoswine hasn't showed up any frequently in the tour scene as of late. b- feels a lot more reasonable
Geez why do all my posts get some sort of response? These are just my opinions
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Tournament usage I feel are one of the big factors in the viability of a Pokemon as well as certain movesets for such Pokemon. For example, Normalium Z Kartana was, if I recall correctly, some funny joke set, but after seeing usage in SPL X, it became arguably one of its best sets, capable of taking out Pokemon that would've otherwise walled it such as Zapdos.
Mamoswine has indeed lacked tournament appearances, which may seem weird at first with its solid Attack, ability to hit almost the entire metagame with atleast neutral, strong STAB attacks, solid ability in Thick Fat, and Stealth Rock utility. That's a lot, right? Indeed, but why doesn't it see tournament usage then? Think about it this way: people who play in tournaments are way different than an average high ladder player; they practically know the metagame inside and out and utilize their own extensive knowledge as well. Therefore, while one average player may think Mamoswine is underrated, but perhaps a tournament player knows it's not worth using it in favor of another Pokemon.
This still raises the question of why Mamoswine should drop (even after that rambling), so I suppose I'll give my own personal opinion on it and what could very well be why it's not used in tournament (though I'd rather not flatter myself). First off, the departure of Zygarde really hurts it; it loses one of its main targets, and Pokemon such as Celesteela and Rotom-W that are highly defensive that grew in popularity can easily wall Mamoswine, even if it can hit it neutrally. Of course, Metronome can solve this problem, but it's not too useful when you can just switch out into a Pokemon that forces it to change up its attack pattern. Additionally, the further rise of already popular and faster offensive Pokemon like Ash Greninja, Mega Gallade, and Tapu Lele can easily take out Mamoswine before it can do really anything. Mamoswine in general is just a sluggish Pokemon that requires too much team support to fully use its good attributes to their potential.
Sorry if this was too much of a ramble, and I'm additionally sorry to more experienced OU players than me if my post is misinformed and crappy, but I felt like giving my opinion in this thread today.
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The thing about tournament usage is that a lot of the time, it has more to do with player vs player than it does player vs. The entire metagame the way it is in ladder.
Although this isn't SM OU, I feel it does prove my point
Although this isn't SM OU, I feel it does prove my point
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In the age old tours versus ladder debate I'm always of the opinion that this thread should favor ladder style over tour style on the logic that tour players do not need a viability thread to tell them what is and is not good.
Tour players are generally the best in this game, but there is a difference between viability in a tour format which is very matchup dependent and in a ladder format where you are facing literally every build under the sun.
How this applies to mamoswine, is when I use the woolly mammoth it tends to end up as a generalist mons that does different things to different opposing builds. There is almost always something better for whatever I need it for against any specific build, but nothing that can do all the things it does. I could see myself gravitating against it in a tour format, while using it more liberally in a ladder format.
As for whether it should actually drop. Yeah it should. Meta has not been kind to it.
Tour players are generally the best in this game, but there is a difference between viability in a tour format which is very matchup dependent and in a ladder format where you are facing literally every build under the sun.
How this applies to mamoswine, is when I use the woolly mammoth it tends to end up as a generalist mons that does different things to different opposing builds. There is almost always something better for whatever I need it for against any specific build, but nothing that can do all the things it does. I could see myself gravitating against it in a tour format, while using it more liberally in a ladder format.
As for whether it should actually drop. Yeah it should. Meta has not been kind to it.
Agreeing with this nom, been spamming zard on ladder for a number of months now and teams that are unprepped for this are extraordinarily common in the higher end of the ladder (and in fact everywhere else as wel, it's enjoyed pretty much every meta trend for a few months outside of chomp, norm z kart and mlatias (which is kinda rare still). I'd also like to point out that fini is an outstanding partner for this, so it doubly enjoys it's increase (whirlpool sets can trap pex and chansey for it, while fog is obviously another great option since hazard support is the other support it requires). Also sun support is legendary, giving you a solid rain matchup (basically a free kill everytime you come in to pelliper), and also helps V ttar (particularly if they have exca) bc you can remove sand. Sun support also gives you the option to go for dual fire breakers with something like band tini (which is one of my favourite cores personally as v create is 2hkoing pex quag and mola in sun, and you also have bolt stirke to bop pexes that try to come in if sun isn't up, and removing pex is massive on zard y teams). Honestly people underrate this mon and don't prep for it cause of pex's existance even though all that means is you need to lure or trap pex, and that's the same kind of support you want to give any mon with a check (so like, all of em), just with a little more importance since pex is near impossible to wear down. It's not splashable by any means and there's not a huge range of options to make solid zard y teams but if you're really telling me this is only as good as pyukumuku or gallade I'm going to guess you haven't used it in any sort of team with the right support because it's way better than any of B- in what it can do.
Gonna pop in a nom if you don't mind me.
to C- at least/UR
This is still in the VR for some insatiable reason. The only thing this has over Scarf Jirachi is the resistances the hazard removal, and resistances that Dragon typing brings, and in case it wasn't obvious, Dragon STAB isn't good.
In a meta where Steels and Fairies run rampant, most Dragons don't run their Dragon STABs. Zard X usually runs DD over 3 attacks, and the DD set goes Flare Blitz+EQ as the attacking sets. Sure, Outrage is an option to mess up Unawares, but thats about it.
Garchomp runs EdgeQuake on its SD set, and rarely runs Dragon Tail on tank sets. Kyurem-B usually only runs Outrage/DClaw on LO sets, since Icium Z sets already screws up Chansey. Kommo-o is the only exception, as Clanging Scales are needed for Z-Omniboost, its primary set, and on stall teams with the Sp.Def set, Dragon Tail is mostly just for setup sweepers. And Mega Latios only runs Draco for shit like Zam and Gren.(god that was long)
But really though, why would you use THIS over Jirachi, which brings so much more to the table than red aeroplane?
This is still in the VR for some insatiable reason. The only thing this has over Scarf Jirachi is the resistances the hazard removal, and resistances that Dragon typing brings, and in case it wasn't obvious, Dragon STAB isn't good.
In a meta where Steels and Fairies run rampant, most Dragons don't run their Dragon STABs. Zard X usually runs DD over 3 attacks, and the DD set goes Flare Blitz+EQ as the attacking sets. Sure, Outrage is an option to mess up Unawares, but thats about it.
Garchomp runs EdgeQuake on its SD set, and rarely runs Dragon Tail on tank sets. Kyurem-B usually only runs Outrage/DClaw on LO sets, since Icium Z sets already screws up Chansey. Kommo-o is the only exception, as Clanging Scales are needed for Z-Omniboost, its primary set, and on stall teams with the Sp.Def set, Dragon Tail is mostly just for setup sweepers. And Mega Latios only runs Draco for shit like Zam and Gren.(god that was long)
But really though, why would you use THIS over Jirachi, which brings so much more to the table than red aeroplane?
Simply put, for covering other threats that Jirachi can't.
It's very slim, but Zard X is probably the biggest reason to use Latias over Jirachi. Latias's typing can also be useful in a pinch, and then it's a bit better at checking Ash-Gren post transformation. I'm okay with a drop to C-, but not really agreeing on unranking.
Also Dragon moves are still used on a rare occasion. Mega Chomp is a big example that was missed in your post, which has Draco to overcome physically defensive Pokemon such as Gliscor.
im sorry but this post makes zero sense to me. scarf latias is bad? yes, it is. but this is no argument lmao. you spend 2/3 of the post saying what pokemon use and dont use dragon stab, but cant u just like uh, not run dragon stab on it if that's your argument? and anyway latias isn't a breaker like all of these, it wants draco so it can touch what it needs to revenge kill, so it's already a pretty different situation (and even then like cm said some mons use dragon stab like mchomp and mlatios). on another note, you fail to adress one of the most important traits of scarf latias which is ground immunity and that's honestly very nice in the part you compare to scarf jirachi. you also seem to overlook the fact that scarf latias outspeeds scarf kartana and mega swampert in rain (even jolly) and can touch mega chairzard x and maybe get some chip on volcarona unlike jirachi which needs a speed tie healing wish to act as a "check", making it a better revenge killer. i'm not saying this pokémon is good however, but you also fail to capture what makes it a lot worse when compared to jirachi, which again makes this post feel very uninformed. lack of defensive utility, that jirachi brings plenty of to the table, and also lack of a pivoting makes it complete tyranitar bait and a momentum sack, which is part of the reason that makes scarf latios and scarf keldeo terrible (not the ttar bait part). all in all, i think scarf latias still has enough of a niche to be ranked, but c- rank could be reasonable.
e: tfw colonel m snipes you
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*Scarf Latiim sorry but this post makes zero sense to me. scarf latias is bad? yes, it is. but this is no argument lmao. you spend 2/3 of the post saying what pokemon use and dont use dragon stab, but cant u just like uh, not run dragon stab on it if that's your argument? and anyway latias isn't a breaker like all of these, it wants draco so it can touch what it needs to revenge kill, so it's already a pretty different situation (and even then like cm said some mons use dragon stab like mchomp and mlatios). on another note, you fail to adress one of the most important traits of scarf latias which is ground immunity and that's honestly very nice in the part you compare to scarf jirachi. you also seem to overlook the fact that mega latias outspeeds scarf latias and mega swampert in rain (even jolly) and can touch mega chairzard x and maybe get some chip on volcarona unlike jirachi which needs a speed tie healing wish to act as a "check", making it a better revenge killer. i'm not saying this pokémon is good however, but you also fail to capture what makes it a lot worse when compared to jirachi, which again makes this post feel very uninformed. lack of defensive utility, that jirachi brings plenty of to the table, and also lack of a pivoting makes it complete tyranitar bait and a momentum sack, which is part of the reason that makes scarf latios and scarf keldeo terrible (not the ttar bait part). all in all, i think scarf latias still has enough of a niche to be ranked, but c- rank could be reasonable.
e: tfw colonel m snipes you
but both of you are right. lati should drop to C-, but not cuz of my reasons.
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