Metagame SS Monotype Metagame Discussion [Isle of Armor]

[Fírnen]

Hello everyone, it's time to speak about Flying type

I) Introduction:
Flying type is one of types lost a lot in this metagame:
- Electric neutral/immunities:
It's simple, beside Noivern/Rotom-F, Flying type doesn't have Electric neutrality or even immunities.
This simple fact made Flying type very frail in front of Rotom's, Heliolisk, Dracozolt,...
- Loss of Hazards:
Not having Hazards makes Flying even frail in front of Electric Pokemon because this Pokemon Scarfed is able to Volt Switch free during all the game.
That's the second big point of Flying Fall.

But, let's be optimistic, in this meta, Flying gained some things to:
- Flying doesn't have to care about Gravity.
- Flying can Defog easier with Heavy Duty Boots (Prevents the effects of traps set on the battlefield.).

II) Flying playstyle:
Bulky-Offense: With Bulky Flying Pokemon (we will see next), this is one of the main Flying playstyle.
Hyper Offense: To give more pain against teams with Electric Pokemon, Flying HO is decent.
Flying Rain: Surprising but because of the lack of solutions and the presence of Rain Water teams, this way to play Flying is became decent and fun to play another kind of Flying.
Stall: No because of the loss of Hazards.

III) Pokémon:
- Support Pokemon:

Xatu:

Description: Xatu is useful when it's paired with set up Pokemon (like Gyarados, Hawlucha, Togekiss,...) because of its ability (Magic Bounce) and its access to screens. Beside that, Xatu isn't really usefull except to annoy very passive Pokemon like Toxapex and Pokemon using Toxic and not having Poison type (like Seismitoad by example) trying to empoison others support/passive flying Pokemon.
+ : Magic Bounce, Screens
- : Not enough bulky against some threats.

Xatu set

Xatu @ Light Clay
Ability: Magic Bounce
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Def / 8 SpD
Impish Nature
- Roost
- U-turn / Teleport
- Light Screen
- Reflect

Mantine

Description: Mantine is really useful in this meta. It's 2 ways to play it, the most classic is in bulky flying team, it gives you a good neutral against ice (still be careful to Freeze Dry). It's a potential Defogger but it's more useful with Haze and to stop Dracovish/Barraskewda and others rain abusers.
In addition of that, in this gen, it may be played as Rain Abuser in Flying Rain teams, next some calculs:

Mantine In Rain

252+ SpA Choice Specs Mantine Hurricane vs. 252 HP / 128 SpD Ferrothorn: 169-199 (48 - 56.5%) -- 32.4% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Choice Specs Mantine Hurricane vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Toxapex: 157-186 (51.6 - 61.1%) -- 94.1% chance to 2HKO after Black Sludge recovery
252+ SpA Choice Specs Mantine Ice Beam vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Dracozolt: 312-368 (97.1 - 114.6%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Mantine Hurricane vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Seismitoad: 270-318 (65.2 - 76.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Choice Specs Mantine Hydro Pump vs. +1 252 HP / 4 SpD Clefable in Rain: 234-276 (59.3 - 70%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Choice Specs Mantine Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Mandibuzz in Rain: 336-396 (79.2 - 93.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Mantine Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Eviolite Corsola-Galar in Rain: 169-199 (52.1 - 61.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

+ : Dracovish/Rain check, Ice neutral damage, Haze access, Sp.Def sponge, potential rain flying sweeper.
- : Electric moves

Mantine sets

Mantine Sweeper (Mantine) @ Choice Specs
Ability: Swift Swim
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Hydro Pump
- Ice Beam
- Hurricane
- Scald

Mantine Support (Mantine) @ Leftovers
Ability: Water Absorb
EVs: 248 HP / 96 Def / 164 SpD
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Scald
- Haze
- Roost
- Ice Beam/Air Slash

Mandibuzz

Description: Here is one of the bulkiest Pokemon in the meta, Mandibuzz is really helpfull in Bulky Offense, With Heavy Duty Boot as item, it's a great Defogger to let to Corvi a wallbreaker role. It doesn't stop at this, Mandibuzz is bulky enough to tank Electric scarfed Pokemon (Except Dracozolt) and is able to Knock off to allow you next to outspeed this last Pokemon. In addition of that, it's one of the one no-Poison typed to get access to Toxic. Its Dark type allows you to resist to ghost in a meta where Ghost are very common.

+ : Access to Knock Off, Toxic, Defog, Great Bulk, Dark type.
- : In some cases, maybe too passive.

Mandi sets

Mandibuzz (F) @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Overcoat
EVs: 248 HP / 8 Def / 252 SpD
Careful Nature
- Knock Off/Foul Play
- Roost
- Defog
- Toxic/Taunt

The spread may be oriented physically def or even mixxed.

- Offensive Pokemon

Charizard

Description: Charizard is a good way Flying gets to annoy Steel team when it's played as Scarf or even with Heavy Duty Boots, it gives a lot of issue to this type. Scarfed outspeeds Darmanitan-galar and 0HKO it and as Darm-g is really annoying to face, it's a good answer.
In addition of that, Charizard may fit well in Rain Flying to eliminate Water/Flying resistances before put the Rain and is able to be used under the rain with Hurricane/Weather Ball/Focus Blast access.
Sometimes people will play it as Draco Dancer but that's worse than others sets.

+ : Great against Steel and Ice types
- : Weak against Stealth Rock pressure

Charizard Set

Charizard @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Blaze
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Focus Blast
- Fire Blast/Flamethrower
- Hurricane
- Weather Ball (if played in Rain) or Dragon Pulse

Gyarados

Description: Gyarados really likes playing with Xatu as teammate, with screen, it's able to live to one electric move and to all others moves.
Gyarados gained Power Whip this generation, which makes it stronger than before because it's able now to defeat Quagsire/Seismitoad/Gastrodon with a good 0HKO in its faces. Gyarados is a really dangerous Pokemon able to make some holes in opponent teams.
It's a good Pokemon in Rain Flying team.

+ : Great Draco Dancer, Neutral Ice Dammage, Great abilities, Good coverage.
- : 0HKO by Electric move

Gyarados set

Gyarados @ Heavy-Duty Boots/Leftovers
Ability: Intimidate or Moxie
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Dragon Dance
- Earthquake
- Waterfall
- Power Whip/Substitute/Taunt

Pelipper

Description: Pelipper is only played in Rain Flying team, it's the one Rain setter (with Mantine if played with Life Orb), it can be played defensively or offensively. Scarf, Specs, Heavy Duty Boots and Leftovers are all viable on it depending of the job you give it.

+ : Rain setter, decent physical bulk
- : Not enough Fast or Strong

Pelipper sets

Defensive (Pelipper) @ Leftovers or Heavy Duty Boots
Ability: Drizzle
EVs: 248 HP / 164 Def / 96 SpD
Bold Nature
- Scald
- Roost
- U-turn
- Hurricane/Tailwind

Offensive (Pelipper) @ Choice Specs or Choice Scarf
Ability: Drizzle
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Hydro Pump
- Hurricane
- Ice Beam
- U-turn

Togekiss

Description: Togekiss lost Roost this generation, which makes it played more offensively than before. With global speed meta fall, 80base speed scarf is became average and stronger than in USUM.
Its strong is it can be played many ways: Scarf, Nasty Plot, Para Haxx with Morning Sun instead Roost, it got a good coverage with Flamethrower/Air Slash/Dazzling Gleam when it's scarfed and Trick is really helpfull sometimes. In addition of that, it outspeed Dracozolt and 0HKO it with Dazzling Gleam which is really good as Dracozolt is a huge threat for Flying type because of no Electric immunity.
And the most important, who need skill when you can win due to haxx? ( Anttya's skills).

+ : Don't need skill when you can hax to win, Fairy typing, versatile Pokemon, Good coverage.
- : Loss of Roost

Togekiss Sets

Scarf (Togekiss) @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Serene Grace
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Fire Blast
- Air Slash
- Dazzling Gleam
- Trick

Para Flinch (Togekiss) @ Leftovers
Ability: Serene Grace
EVs: 248 HP / 80 Def / 180 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Morning Sun
- Air Slash
- Dazzling Gleam/Nasty Plot
- Thunder Wave

Nasty Plot (Togekiss) @ Leftovers
Ability: Serene Grace
EVs: 248 HP / 8 SpA / 252 Spe or 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Nasty Plot
- Air Slash
- Dazzling Gleam
- Flamethrower

Rotom-F

Description: Rotom-F utility in Flying is helpfull against Rain team and it's able to fit well in Rain Water team.
Neutral electric damage may look good but it can't really hit strongly Electric opponents, at best, it gets Shadow Ball/Dark Pulse which can't really hurt others Rotom's in other different types.

+ : Neutral Electric Damage, Nasty Plot (Potential Rain Sweeper).
- : No recovery move anymore

Rotom-F set

Rotom-Fan @ Choice Scarf or Choice Specs
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Thunderbolt / Thunder (in Rain Flying team)
- Volt Switch
- Dark Pulse / Air Slash
- Trick

Sub/Nasty Plot may be played instead Volt Switch and Trick.

Sigilpyh

Description: Sigilyph is a good surprise and heart stroke for me this generation, indeed in Bulky offense Flying team, it's really good to pair with its teammates (like Mandibuzz and Mantine), it can absorb Toxic and WoW and is a good answer to Toxapex and poison type in general.
Its movepool is also great: Psychic, Heat Wave, Ice Beam, Energy Ball, Calm Mind, Roost, Cosmic Power, Stored Power, Psycho Shift.
It gives issue to steel teams (Free set up on Ferro if not Thunder Wave) and Heat Wave (Only Aegislash and Corvi can live next one Calm Mind (with Life Orb as item)). Ice Beam/Energy Ball completes well the coverage against Ground by example.

+ : Great abilities, Good coverage, Decent speed
- : Need a little more bulk

Sigilyph sets

Calm Mind + 3 moves (Sigilyph) @ Life Orb
Ability: Magic Guard
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Calm Mind
- Psychic
- Ice Beam/Energy Ball
- Heat Wave

Psycho Shift + Flame Orb (Sigilyph) @ Flame Orb
Ability: Magic Guard
EVs: 248 HP / 8 Def / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Cosmic Power or Calm Mind
- Psycho Shift
- Stored Power
- Roost

Hawlucha

Description: Hawlucha big buff is to not rely on terrain anymore to active unburden, indeed, with Close Combat and White Herb, it can set up alone now. In addition of that, having it on his team is great to face Dark and Normal (Especially when u broke possible sash and able to active Unburden, you've a possible sweep with it (As Dubwool is useless if you play Taunt)). It helps against other type like Steel, Ground but sadly, it's pretty useless against Ghost because not able to active Unburden the way I've described.
Adamant or Jolly nature can be played but both have advantage and inconvenient.

+ : Unburden, Doesn't rely on terrain to active Unburden
- : Not good enough to break Electric type.

Hawlucha set

Hawlucha @ White Herb
Ability: Unburden
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature (Or Adamant)
- Close Combat
- Acrobatics or Brave Bird
- Swords Dance
- Taunt

Noivern

Description: So, without being rude with our Noivern friend, when you notice that your best answer to Electric is it, it shows how Flying gets a huge issue with this type.
However, Noivern can deal with special electric moves from scarfed Pokemon like Rotom by example.
But its job doesn't stop here, in HO team, it's one of the best defogger with Taunt/Defog/Roost.
Otherwise, it can be played as LO or Specs and doing great damage to every Pokemon slower than it.

+ : Best electric answer, great speed, decent movepool, Infiltrator
- : Bulk isn't good enough to tank LO/Specs electric moves.

Noivern Sets

Support (Noivern) @ Leftovers or Heavy Duty Boots
Ability: Infiltrator
EVs: 252 HP / 4 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Defog
- Roost
- Taunt / Flamethrower
- Dragon Pulse

Offensive (Noivern) @ Life Orb / Choice Specs
Ability: Infiltrator
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Draco Meteor
- Flamethrower
- Hurricane / U-Turn / Roost / Air Slash
- Boomburst / U-Turn / Roost

Corviknight

Description: Did you know this Pokemon exist? Great surprise, I just discovered it when I start to interest to Flying type!
Ok, stop joking, everyone knows how powerful is this King Bird and I already made a post about it some times ago so...
2 ways to play it: Wallbreaker or Support
Wallbreaker is the most common set with Bulk up/Roost/Taunt + Power Trip or Iron Head
Support set is in the case you choose to play it with Defog. I dislike playing Defog instead taunt in the set above, it loses a lot if we do that, so, here is a decent defog set: Iron Defense, Body Press, Defog, Roost. It's helpful against Ice type, next on Iron Def, it's able to live peacefully to Darmanitan-Galar and 0HKO it, a great way to destroy Ice type with one Pokemon if Avalugg isn't played with Iron Def.

+ : Great typing and abilities one of the strongest Pokemon in the current meta, complete well the bulky Flying core (Mantine/Mandi), many ways to play it.
- : Electric

Corviknight Sets

Wallbreaker (Corviknight) @ Leftovers
Ability: Mirror Armor or Pressure
EVs: 248 HP / 240 SpD / 20 Spe
Careful Nature
- Taunt
- Roost
- Power Trip or Iron Head
- Bulk Up

Support (Corviknight) @ Leftovers
Ability: Mirror Armor
EVs: 248 HP / 240 SpD / 20 Spe
Careful Nature
- Iron Defense
- Body Press
- Defog
- Roost

Others Pokemon outclassed (in my opinion):
Togetic, Driftblim, Swoobat, Braviary, Unfeazant and Cramorant.


IV - Flying Weaknesses
I'm going to class weaknesses by type with small explanation/key words:

Steel: Duraludon (Tbolt), Bisharp (Stealth Rock + Defiant), Durant (Rock Slide/Thunder Fang), Togedemaru (Electric moves).
Fighting: /
Dragon: Dracozolt (Doesn't need explanation), Goodra (Boltbeam (Thunderbolt + Icebeam)), Duraludon (Tbolt),
Water: Rotom-Wash (Volt Switch spam, electric moves), Cloyster (Shell Smash), Crawdaunt (Crabhammer 2HKO Mandi and Knock Off hurt a lot Mantine).
Electric: Honnestly, u can't win against a good Electric team.
Fairy: Mimikyu (SD/Shadow Claw/Play Rough is able to hurt a lot Flying if it gets a free set up), Gardevoir (if played with Tbolt).
Fire: Arcanine (Wild Charge), Rotom-Heat (Volt Switch spam, electric moves).
Ice: Darmanitan-galar, Cloyster, Mamoswine, Freeze dry users.
Bug: Galvantula/Vikavolt (Electric spam), Durant (Rock Slide), Frosmoth is check by Mantine with Haze.
Normal: Heliolisk (Volt Switch spam).
Grass: Rotom-M (Volt Switch spam)
Poison: Toxtricity (Shift Gear/Overdrive).
Psychic: /
Rock: Tyranitar (Draco Dance, Stone Edge), Barbaracle (Shell Smash), Rhyperior (Rock Polish Weakness Policy).
Ground: Mamoswine (Band), Excadrill (Swords Dance Rock Slide), Stealth rock.
Ghost: Polteageist (if not Mandibuzz because of Shell Smash), Mimikyu.
Dark: Tyranitar (Stone Edge, Draco Dance), Bisharp (Defiant + Stealth Rock)
Flying: Rotom-F (Volt Switch spam + Electric moves).

V - Conclusion
Flying is a good/decent type but handicaped a lot against Electric Pokemon and doesn't have any chance against Electric type.
So, all this type has to do is waiting Gliscor, Landorus or Zapdos come back to struggle again against that.
Many ways to play it in function of your playstyle.

Feel free to share your opinion or maybe some points I've forgotten, nobody is perfect.

 

[The Black Hippopotas]

I'm surprisingly seeing Ground as one of the types with less following or repercussion in SS Monotype. Is Ground-type so bad despite the Hippo+Exca combo?

 

[Jahkem]

I'm surprisingly seeing Ground as one of the types with less following or repercussion in SS Monotype. Is Ground-type so bad despite the Hippo+Exca combo?

I don't think Ground is bad per se, but it has been a type that kind of stayed around mid-tier since gen 7 until today. Sand Ground with Exca will almost forever be a great offensive core, it's just Ground hasn't gotten better teammates in awhile while other types have (bar Electric) this gen. Ground will be getting it's old mons back this year, though. Ground has really missed Landorus and Garchomp. Zygarde is coming back as well; it'll be interesting to see how it fairs without access to Z-moves this gen. Also, Nidoking might find a niche as well on Ground but I don't see it being used as much compared to being used on Poison. Personally, I've been having a lot of fun with Ground this gen. It's still a good type to use while having a decent amount of matchups it can win.

 

[mushamu]

I'm surprisingly seeing Ground as one of the types with less following or repercussion in SS Monotype. Is Ground-type so bad despite the Hippo+Exca combo?

In Monotype, consistency is the most important factor in determining how good a type is. If you look at Ground, it does have some shaky matchups like against Grass or Water, but it can matchup fairly well against a majority of the types in the current metagame. Excadrill and Mamoswine is a good wallbreaking core that is great in many matchups across the board, such as Dark, Dragon, Fairy, Psychic, Flying, Grass, and Normal. In addition to that, you have other Pokemon like Seismtioad which gives you outplay potential in the Water matchup and can spread status to wear things down and forms a formidable defensive core with Hippowdon and Dugtrio which can trap and remove key threats in order to make matchups easier altogether. Rhyperior also gives you a solid answer to Corviknight and can take advantage of Steel as a whole after a Swords Dance boost. So in conclusion, Ground is definitely not bad; the fact that it has a solid shot at beating a majority of the metagame makes it, in my opinion, actually one of the best types right now.

 

[EternumTagerMain]

I don't think Ground is bad per se, but it has been a type that kind of stayed around mid-tier since gen 7 until today. Sand Ground with Exca will almost forever be a great offensive core, it's just Ground hasn't gotten better teammates in awhile while other types have (bar Electric) this gen. Ground will be getting it's old mons back this year, though. Ground has really missed Landorus and Garchomp. Zygarde is coming back as well; it'll be interesting to see how it fairs without access to Z-moves this gen. Also, Nidoking might find a niche as well on Ground but I don't see it being used as much compared to being used on Poison. Personally, I've been having a lot of fun with Ground this gen. It's still a good type to use while having a decent amount of matchups it can win.

I used Scarf Bolt/Beam Nido in Gen 7

Unorthodox set but it managed to be a good Special Attacker and a Greninja Killer along with being able to take down other threats

 

[mushamu]

Something I've been enjoying recently which hasn't seen as much usage as its male counterpart is female Indeedee. I think it's genuinely worth using in this metagame because Healing Wish is such a powerful move. Psychic last generation had a myriad of Healing Wish users like Latias, Jirachi, and Celebi it could utilize, which was part of why I think its team support was considered so good back in SM. In SS, Healing Wish did receive a huge buff, which I feel is even more reason to include Healing Wish users, the main other one being Gardevoir, though I'm not sure if it's implemented on PS! or not yet. Hatterene also gets it but it's better off doing other things like being the one supported with Healing Wish, with Calm Mind in conjunction with Screens support being devastating for many types to face. The Dark matchup is in my opinion, even with Calm Mind Hatterene paired with Screens support and Gardevoir.

We all know what Healing Wish does, it's an incredibly strong support move that's especially great for bringing back weakened wincons, and Psychic has strong ones this generation with Hatterene, Reuniclus, and Mew it can potentially support with Healing Wish. Hatterene and Mew help in otherwise tough matchups like Dark and Steel especially, making Healing Wish great for supporting them. I've been trying double Healing Wish Psychic with Screens and the aforementioned Hatterene and Mew as setup sweepers. As for Indeedee-F itself, it's only slightly worse than its male counterpart, with Speed being the main change and a little bit of power. You noticeably tie with Duraludon and you can't outspeed Choice Scarf Obstagoon if you're Choice Scarf, and you can't outspeed Lucario and you're slightly worse against Bisharp with Mystical Fire if Choice Specs, but it loses to Stealth Rock chip or Life Orb recoil anyways so it's not that big of a deal.

With all this being said, I think Indeedee-F is a pretty good pick in the current metagame because of its access to Healing Wish over its male counterpart. I haven't tried it on Normal that much, and I would think underspeeding Lucario matters more there, but I think it's definitely got potential on Psychic similar to Latias's role to Latios in SM. Has anyone else been trying out Indeedee-F?

 

[Eien]

PokeHome is out! And that means huge shakeups for Monotype. Linking the OU thread for a lot of the competitively relevant changes https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/ss-ou-metagame-discussion-v3.3659980/

Some new really wild Pokemon I'm most hyped up for already:

One of the strongest mixed wallbreakers Monotype has had to deal with finally patched up its missing physical Ice-type STAB options with Icicle Spear and got Dragon Dance to boot (and boost). Not much is going to stand in the way of +1 / +1 Kyurem-B, who ties Crowned Zacian for the highest base Attack stat in the generation. By far the most looked forward to release of the batch. Not promising one way or another on it, but it's at the top of the danger list for me when it comes to tiering the new metagame.


This beast is back and it's looking like the second biggest threat to be returning. Rain has so much less to fear of Ferrothorn, and Hydreigon can't just drop Dragon STAB anymore when Keldeo is around the corner. It's very easy to imagine that Keldeo will end up as the next Hoopa-U / Mega Medicham with very few remaining switch-ins and a Lati-less metagame. Along with Kyurem-B, these two Pokemon are the most likely to see tiering discussion in my eyes.


Unlike the first two, Alolan Raichu seems like it's going to really shake up the metagame by virtue of its incredibly Speed. With Pursuit removed from the game, types that are scared of Alolan Raichu can't even hope to trap it in exchange for a single sacrifice anymore. I'm not even sure how types like Poison and Fighting are going to handle it with support. Terrain Extender isn't banned like it was in SM where Tapu Lele supported an entire Psychic and Fairy team and Tapu Bulu supported Serperior and Kartana, which is going to throw a real wrench into Alolan Raichu's goals.


Terrakion randomly got Megahorn this generation, and that's going to give Psychic all kinds of headaches especially lacking Choice Scarf Latis. Both Rock and Fighting are going to be quite scared of all the Speed doubling abilities but Terrakion is so ridiculously fast in the current meta and has a real Attack stat with good STABs. Some types like Water get away with having Toxapex around, but others like Dark are going to have a bad time dealing with Terrakion's damage output.


Choice Scarf Cobalion means Steel has an answer to Charizard now if you don't miss Stone Edge. It's also a solid answer to goons like Hydreigon and Galarian Darmanitan that were pretty annoying to handle. Combined with Keldeo and Terrakion, Fighting's options just got blown way open. While Fairy's attackers are typically fat enough to tank a hit from Cobalion if they're healthy, Cobalion is also fat enough to tank a hit from them too. 346 Speed is likely going to be premium in the Gen 8 meta, since the Lati twins are nowhere to be found.


Mew gets all its utility back in the form of Roost and Knock Off, so stallbreaker Mew is in and might be going for a third generation in a row of being S rank on Psychic. No Heatran on Steel, so literally nothing on Steel tanks Will-O-Wisp, and it now has Roost to wall basically everything. In general, stallbreaker looks disgustingly good and god bless I don't have to use some of the ugliest Mew sets I've ever made.


Zeraora got Play Rough and is back to terrorize Electric's bad matchups. Dragon might unironically need to cteam this because nothing's switching into this guy anymore. Dark is also scared as fuck when Mandibuzz drops to a Plasma Fist and Sableye can't even outheal a burned Play Rough. In combination with Alolan Raichu, Electric is looking real happy with these changes.


Sun Grass is looking legitimately usable now. With Whimsicott setting Prankster Sunny Day, types without a way to block weather are going to have a really annoying time trying to deal with this monster with Chlorophyll, Growth, and damn strong attacks. Good luck to Steel dealing with Fire-type Weather Ball. Other types like even Poison are going to have to think hard about how they tank +2 Venusaur's attacks. For reference, fully specially defensive Drapion gets OHKOed by +2 Weather Ball and specialy defensive Toxapex also gets smashed by the newly learned +2 Earth Power after Stealth Rock.

Also, one simply cannot understate the value of Defog (and Toxic!) coming back, but they aren't Pokemon, so I'm not going to say much more other than it's going to be fantastic for so many types.

 

[Fylkir Pudin]

Hello, I would like to talk about all of the fantastic new additions that the bug type will be gaining with Pokémon home

New Pokémon

NOT ONE FUCKING SINGLE NEW POKÉMON WHAT THE FUUUUUUCK, FIGHTING GETS A BUNCH OF GREAT MONS PSYCHIC GETS SHITLOADS KYUREM IS BACK AND BUG DOES NOT GET A SINGLE FUCKING MON WHO THE FUCK MAKES THESE DECISIONS.

New moves

Nothing really all that noteworthy I don’t think, durant gets hone claws back I guess but with first impression being so good it probs won’t run it, hopefully Araquanid gets spider web back unless they totally deleted that from the game. And I guess vespiquen gets heal order, which won’t make it good but it should make stabmons bug a little better. Also a bunch of mons get toxic

so in conclusion, fuck.

 

[Blitz]

I hate to disappoint, but Spider Web and Heal Order are certified culled moves so you can't use them...

At least Bug has the DLC to look forward to?

 

[mushamu]

Initial thoughts on the Pokemon Home additions, sorry in advance for weird phrasing and stuff-


It's back and its better than before. Kyurem-Black returns with its new access to two notable attacks in Dragon Dance and Icicle Spear in a slower and more vulnerable metagame. Dragon Dance itself seems atrocious to deal with across many types paired with Icicle Spear as it can outspeed and beat a multitude of types like Fairy, Poison, Flying, Water across the board easily after boosting. I could see Dragon teams easily fitting Screens support on something like Dragapult and Ice teams running Aurora Veil as per usual to help it set up and sweep among other setup sweepers. Otherwise, Freeze Dry gives it the ability to dismantle Water teams without the need to predict between Ice Beam and Fusion Bolt, but it loves the physical Ice STAB nonetheless which means it won't have to rely on Ice Beam and go mixed anymore. However, its special coverage is still good, so I don't think special sets are necessarily going to fade away completely. Overall a Pokemon that has taken a leap of viability since SM, I wouldn't be surprised if it eventually gets banned.


Terrakion is great for Rock. It's speed tier makes it amazing under Sticky Web, and dismantles a majority of the metagame with one Swords Dance boost, especially with Solrock's Screens helping it set up. Steel can't revenge kill it as easily now with Scizor not being present, Aegislash gets hit with Earthquake, and everything else loses to Close Combat. Other types like Grass, Psychic, Dark, Dragon, and Fairy also despise Terrakion's presence under Sticky Web, especially when types are missing Pokemon like Latios, Latias, Mega Diancie, Breloom, and Choice Scarf Greninja that would otherwise give it trouble. Rock was usable before Pokemon Home dropped, but I can see it being really good now with Terrakion coming out to save its day.


With Keldeo and good Defog support at its disposal, Water becomes even better. Keldeo solidifies Water's offensive Pokemon as it gives it a solid answer to Steel and Ferrothorn, which you mainly had to run multiple wallbreakers like Crawdaunt, Dracovish, and Choice Specs Pelipper and quite a bit of Fighting coverage on Pokemon such as Seismitoad and Barraskewda to break through. With Keldeo and Defog support, Water easily has a good edge over Steel now. Keldeo is also better in a slower metagame, and I would imagine sets like Calm Mind pulling its weight on Water, maybe with Sticky Web support from Araquanid too. Choice Specs is also deadly, but can't play around Ferrothorn's Protect as well because of the presence of Aegislash so I can see its usage faltering. Though Terrakion, Keldeo, and Cobalion are sure to make Fighting takes a huge jump in viability, I still think the type itself still has the potential to struggle with weather just like in previous generations, especially with Alolan Raichu along with Electric Terrain being present now.


One thing I'm excited for is the more widespread availability of hazard removal in the tier. Something I've found annoying since the beginning of the generation was Water having only Cramorant for hazard control, despite having good Pokemon to work with otherwise. This is part of the reason why I feel Water had to play aggressively against Steel in order to stop Ferrothorn from clicking Spikes and Leech Seed all over the team, while Spikes itself were extremely obnoxious to deal with as it softened up Water greatly for priority users which are a common sight on Steel in particular. I can see Mantine resuming its place as a Defog user on Balance, especially now that Hidden Power along with many other Pokemon that carried Electric coverage being unexistent, which makes its weakness to Electric moves less exposable. Mantine gradually fell off in SM due to being overprepared for, but I imagine it will take a rise in SS Monotype because of its great typing, bulk, and access to Defog, as well as being able to check many threats that Water teams dislike like Hatterene and Gardevoir to name a few. Rotom-W is a less passive Defog user, and I can see it pulling off something with Choice Scarf, Trick, and Defog on more offensive teams. One thing that's certain though, is that Rain teams will definitely be running Pelipper a lot of the time to compress roles just like it did back in SM.


With Defog coming back, I can definitely see Balance Water making its return in SS. It already had a bunch of good bulky Pokemon before this, with Toxapex being the symbol of fat in Monotype since SM, Seismitoad which can set Stealth Rock and provide a sturdy Electric immunity, and Mantine being able to take special attacks and Defog now. I think these three Pokemon will form a good defensive core for Water, now that a lot of Pokemon are gone that previously threatened them, as well as Hidden Power and Z-Moves being non existent, making the core hard to break. Lanturn also gets Heal Bell back, which is notable if you're ever trying to run fat or stall. Keldeo being present means Water won't always have to play super aggressively against Steel in order to not lose to Ferrothorn and its friends, and gives Pokemon like Seismitoad and Pelipper the breathing room to run different sets other than like, Life Orb Focus Blast and Choice Specs Hurricane respectively in order to deal with Ferrothorn better.


Jirachi and Celebi are both excellent additions to Psychic, Steel, and Grass teams respectively. I can imagine Jirachi being good on Steel with some sort of Calm Mind setup or even just running Screens and Healing Wish in order to support Pokemon on more offensive builds set up, similar to how Klefki was like last generation on the type. Healing Wish in general is an extremely strong support move that got even better this generation. Jirachi also gives Psychic a good defensive Stealth Rock setter with Toxic pressuring Defog users and Celebi covering its Ground weakness, forming a good defensive core. I don't doubt Bronzong will dip in usage after Jirachi gets released, with Celebi meaning Levitate being not as necessary. Celebi was great in SM Monotype and I think it will continue its success here. Celebi as well as Jirachi will be good for role compression on Psychic with either of them being able to run Stealth Rock and both of them being able to run a mix of different sets. Offensive sets seem great on Grass, with Nasty Plot being able to take on the otherwise hard Poison matchup, and its bulk being good enough to run Recover and threaten other types with other coverage moves, though the lack of Hidden Power Fire does blow as it cannot be used to beat Steel well anymore. Mew also gets Softboiled and Defog back, so that means it has more freedom to run bulky sets like stallbreaker or support. I was a huge fan of Psychic before Pokemon Home drops because of its amazing team support, and I imagine it will get even better after these new additions touch the type.


Aegislash got Toxic back, so it's something I think is worth watching out for. Substitute + Toxic Aegislash was obnoxious back in SM Monotype, where it was eventually banned. Here in SS, with Toxic back, I don't doubt it will become extremely obnoxious after Pokemon Home drops along with all the other sets it can run with its good ability, bulk, and Kings Shield. Marshadow is well, Marshadow. It has everything an offensive Pokemon could ever wish for, blazing Speed, unresisted STABs, a great signature move and a useful ability, while not being frail at all. I'm certain it's getting axed just like in SM.


Decidueye, Zeraora, and Melmetal are some of the other Pokemon I have thoughts on. Decidueye doesn't seem to be anywhere as good as last generation, seeing as Indeedee pretty much blocks its success with its Normal typing and Psychic terrain protecting the team from Decidueye's priority. Zeraora is obviously great, and with Play Rough it will serve as a good anti Dragon which Electric teams hated beforehand. This, coupled with its blazing Speed and good Attack makes it a powerful addition, and it is able to take on a majority of other types, especially under Sticky Web slowing down usual checks like Choice Scarf Duraludon and Excadrill. Melmetal is ridiculously strong with Double Iron Bash paired with Iron Fist, but it's also extremely slow. I don't think it will be that great on Steel because of that Speed, but I can see it being decent as a slower wallbreaker.

 

[An Explosion]

Let’s talk Ice type. Because it’s BACK.

The Big 3

Kyurem-Black: If you keep track of NatDex OU, Kyurem-Black should be no surprise. Back in Gen 7, Kyurem-Black was a mixed wall breaker, but now it has Icicle Spear & Dragon Dance, so say goodbye to the mixed wall breaker of old. May the Lord have mercy on us all.
Galarain Darmanitan: CBCBDarm is still really good, but I’ve seen some cheeky Zen Mode sets too. No surprises here.
Alola Ninetales: Abomasnow just lost the title of being the only Pokémon in Galar with the coveted Snow Warning/Aurora Veil combo that made it niche pre-HOME. The addition of Boots means an attempt to reset Hail/Veil won’t get shut down by Rocks.

Noteworthy Picks

Frosmoth: Ice Scales is cool, has Defog & Quiver Dance for hazards & setup. Rocks are a big problem, so Boots are mandatory.
Weavile: Lost Pursuit this generation, but still the speedster we know & love.
Galarian Mr. Mime: Fast spinner with added Eviolite bonus. It’s good.
Cloyster: Shell Smash, then flinch hax with King’s Rock. Gets Rapid Spin too, I guess.

Needless to say, we’re heading back to the cold, better than ever.

 

[Eien]

Sorry for the state of ladder this morning, the council wasn’t aware everything including obvious bans was going to be implicitly legal. Monotype is going to start with banning every Pokémon that was banned in SM. SM has a higher acceptable power level and these are Pokémon that were already banned, so preserving the ban is fairly logical and a good starting point for tiering the new monsters (like Kyurem-B). Terrain extender was banned due to the Tapu group, so we are not keeping the ban. So, to make it official, the following Pokémon are now banned from SS Monotype:

Lunala
Solgaleo
Necrozma-DM
Necrozma-DW
Kyurem-W
Reshiram
Zekrom
Mewtwo
Marshadow

Tagging The Immortal and Kris to implement. Thank you!

 

[Conflux]

After some building and testing in the new meta, here are some thoughts.

This thing's a monster. Dragon Dance is so threatening to most of the meta and both of its types have several powerful Pokemon to pave the way for it to sweep, as well as access to Aurora Veil / Screens to support its setup. Some of its bad matchups such as Steel, Psychic, and Rock can be covered by teammates like Hydreigon, Dragapult. and Dracovish on Dragon, while for Ice it's a bit difficult since these are tough matchups in general, especially with the addition of Jirachi on Psychic. It can also effectively run a mixed set with Freeze Dry which is devastating for Water and Ground, and also great against Poison. This thing's most likely going to get banned, but while it's around I think that every type should try to run a Scarf user that can outspeed and threaten +1 Kyurem-B, if they have access to one. Some of these include Jirachi on Psychic, Keldeo on Water, Virizion on Grass, Gengar on Poison / Ghost, Flygon on Ground, and Hydreigon / Weavile on Dark.

If / when Kyurem-b does get banned, I think regular Kyurem is going to be pretty good as it can still perform the role of threatening Water and Ground teams. Its special coverage is pretty great, I can definitely see a few sets for this including Choice Specs, SubRoost, or Roost + 3 attacks.

Sun Grass is definitely not a meme. Sure it's probably less consistent and won't be the primary Grass playstyle, but Venusaur under Sun is really good. The matchup against Ice is pretty rough due to Alolan Ninetales' weather, and Tyranitar's Sand on Dark can be a pain combined with Hydreigon, Weavile, and Drapion, but it can easily beat the other weather teams due to Water, Ground, and Rock's weakness to Grass. I can see this being used to fish for matchup, as it matches up well against Water, Ground, Grass, Fairy, Steel, and potentially Psychic with the help of Shiftry or Decidueye.

Psychic finally doesn't have to rely on Bronzong (or god forbid Claydol) for Stealth Rock, as it now has Jirachi and Celebi. While Kyurem-B is free I think Jirachi should run Scarf to check it as reliably as possible as +1 Fusion Bolt to max HP Jirachi does too much damage for it to be reliable, plus Jirachi's just a great Scarf user in general as it can get flinches with Iron Head and get off a fast Healing Wish. This makes Celebi the best Stealth Rock user at the moment in my opinion. Celebi's arrival also gives Psychic a Water resist which it lacked before, and that's going to help it out a lot with switching in Dracovish and the newly released Keldeo, but it does need to watch out for Air Slash and Crunch. Mew got its Roost and Knock Off back, allowing it to go back to its stallbreaker set which I think is going to be great and annoy a bunch of types.

All of these guys are pretty great and as Eien said, their Speed tier is premium as of right now. Great Scarf users for Steel, Rock, Water, and Grass teams as they're some of the fastest Pokemon in the current metagame and will be great for revenge killing threats to their respective types such as Charizard for Steel, Galarian Darmanitan for Grass, Kyurem-B for Water etc. On Fighting the best Scarf options of the four would be Cobalion and Terrakion in my opinion.

Not too much to say about these that hasn't been said already or that isn't pretty obvious. Melmetal's a crazy strong hitter with insane bulk but it's very slow and Steel has better options to use. Zeraora and Alolan Raichu are great additions to Electric and are going to be some strong threats in the metagame.

 

[Harpp]

With Pokemon Home added as we all know some types got new toys to play with. Which means Primarina is also usable now which is actually great in my opinion for Water-type teams as it can easily turn tables vs dragon match ups. I wanted to build a team around it today and built a rain team
around Primarina.

The set I used is a Specially Defensive set:

Primarina @ Leftovers
Ability: Torrent
EVs: 252 HP / 4 SpA / 252 SpD
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Scald
- Moonblast
- Rest
- Sleep Talk
Now I know, this is a set that was used in UU but hear me out. This set is not only a pain for Dragon-type teams due to its high special bulk but it also checks Choice Scarf Gardevoir, Specs Hydreigon or Sub NP Hydreigon which are otherwise threats to Rain teams. Using this means you dont have to use Cloyster which relies on Focus Sash to setup mainly and with no proper hazard control for Water-teams it can be harder to pull off.
252 SpA Gardevoir Psychic vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Primarina: 93-111 (25.5 - 30.4%) -- 1.6% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 SpA Gardevoir Energy Ball vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Primarina: 124-148 (34 - 40.6%) -- 53.2% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 SpA Choice Specs Hydreigon Flash Cannon vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Primarina: 83-98 (22.8 - 26.9%) -- possible 5HKO after Leftovers recovery

Here is also a replay showcasing the set in action: https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8monotype-1063267330

What do you all think about Primarina's presence on Water-type teams? Also would love to know how people are approaching to team building now that PokeHome is out with some of the Pokemon available!

 

[Haaku.]

I've been getting into the Sword and Shield metagame. The release of Pokemon Home made me interested, and so I've been building and ladderingth all this talk about Kyurem-B's newfound access to Dragon Dance and Icicle Spear, I wanted to talk about another new move that it (and regular Kyurem, by extension) gets: Freeze-Dry.

The combination of Draco Meteor, Earth Power, and Freeze-Dry hits most of the metagame super hard. Specifically, it eases common matchups like Ground and Water. Also, its bulk this gen is pretty much amplified due to its new Heavy Duty Boots, allowing it to bypass Stealth Rock, Spikes, and pose a much bigger threat to Toxapex by not fretting about its Toxic Spikes. It has the same great ability Pressure from previous gens, so it can still PP stall to an extent in combination with Roost.

Here's a set I've been using on Dragon.

Hide

Kyurem @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Freeze-Dry
- Earth Power
- Draco Meteor
- Roost

 

[juoean]

ice seems rly underestimated and no one has brought up the slush rush fossils.
ice has a rly good matchup vs both other relevant weathers, ground and water (esp with both ninetales-alola and the slush rush fossils having freeze dry, ohkoing pelipper and with pex as the only poke on water that can maybe switch into freeze dry) so it can generally keep hail up more than adequately.
bolt beak and fishious rend are extremely strong moves for weather sweepers and with their secondary stabs icicle crash / freeze dry respectively providing almost perfect ‘coverage’, and even with their low base speed they reach a higher speed in hail than the dragon fossils do with a scarf and do so without needing the choice lock. basically every team will need to run scarfers that outspeed them, including ss water and exca ground teams (which might otherwise want to not run a scarfer and rely on their weather sweepers for revenging) since neither weather inducer can switch into the slush rush fossils at all.
also arctovish specifically doesnt mind the choice lock that much since it will be clicking an ice stab vs water grass and dragon teams but usually fishious rend against everything else (a few exceptions such as needing to hit seismotoad on ground w freeze dry before sweeping w fishious rend), so it can viably run scarf to outspeed the whole tier in hail (and still have a usable speed tier outside of it) and therefore leaving it unable to be checked by fast scarfers either.

i think icy rock needs to be banned, slush rush ice is no longer weaker in any way than sand rush or swift swim, but even without it few types have good answers to both fossils.
and obv thats not considering ice’s expansive remaining powerful options including kyurem b which is extremely threatening as discussed in all the recent posts but maybe not even that important on ice this gen bc the fossils provide similar offensive pressure (and type coverage), and ofc darm-galar.

also the biggest past threat to ice m-scizor is not present, theres literally one poke w stab bullet punch (lucario) not to mention both fossils are neutral to steel and overall priority isnt common, and fire stab isnt common either. scarf fighting stab will prob be very prominent now w the swords of justice but ice has access to froslass to check/status them.
eg someone said steel psychic rock as bad mus for ice but idk why thats true for rly any of the three, steel has basically only one switch in to arctovish (ferro) and is badly threatened by darm-g as well while the biggest possible threats to ice are lucario and scarf jirachi neither of which is anywhere near mandatory, psychic ?? im guessing this was said solely bc of scarf jirachi but it cant check scarf arctovish if present and if not jirachi still might need flinches, rock scarf terrakion is a big threat and it can overwrite hail but its going to be sacing a pokemon anytime arctovish gets in under hail bc it has no switchins to fishious rends (esp if its scarfed and therefore cant be revenged by scarf terrak in hail)

i honestly dont see ice as having any inherently bad matchups while a lot of types rly struggle against it due to sweepers w fishious rend and bolt beak in addition to strong ice stab from pokes such as darm-g.

 

[Fylkir Pudin]

ice seems rly underestimated and no one has brought up the slush rush fossils.

Slush rush arctovish and arctozolt are unreleased and therefore can't be used in mono, that is why nobody has mentioned it. They should be really cool when they are

 

[CoolMan6001]

Nothing really all that noteworthy I don’t think, durant gets hone claws back I guess but with first impression being so good it probs won’t run it, hopefully Araquanid gets spider web back unless they totally deleted that from the game. And I guess vespiquen gets heal order, which won’t make it good but it should make stabmons bug a little better. Also a bunch of mons get toxic

Actually, I'd like to argue Bug Silvally getting Defog back is good for Mono-Bug so that they finally get somewhat of a decent defogger.

 

[mushamu]

Stuff I’ve observed after Pokemon Home drop, and some things in general both pre and post Home. Let’s start off with something I’ve been enjoying shortly before Pokemon Home dropped and I’ve still been enjoying today:

importable

Dragapult @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Infiltrator
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Fire Blast
- Draco Meteor
- Thunder Wave / U-turn
- Shadow Ball

I’m a huge fan of Choice Scarf Dragapult in this metagame, the speed tier it hits is great. Choice Scarf is in general a great item in the current metagame with it being so offense heavy, and Dragapult really abuses its good speed tier even more by running Choice Scarf. It’s definitely one of, if not its best sets right now especially with Kyurem-B being present on Dragon and Hydreigon being another good special wallbreaker, it can give up Choice Specs a lot of the times to take advantage of its wonderful speed tier. Base 142 Speed coupled with a Choice Scarf allows it to pretty much outspeed everything bar Timid Alolan Raichu, which runs Modest most of the times anyways. Some notable things include Excadrill under sand, Cloyster after a Shell Smash, as well as natural threats to Dragon teams like Choice Scarf Duraludon, Gengar, Galarian Darmanitan, Charizard and Gardevoir, which is incredibly useful. Outspeeding everything bar opposing Choice Scarf Dragapult is also especially good for the Dragon mirror, and all in all, I think Choice Scarf Dragapult is very useful against a lot of the better types right now and is something I feel should be explored more on Dragon. On Ghost I think it’s fine to grab an even better matchup against Dragon teams, but you miss out on the power, making matchups like Steel and Water naturally harder for Dragapult itself to beat. Interesting that 4 Defense EVs lets it always live Jolly Cloyster’s Ice Shard after a Shell Smash, but I personally use Adamant for the same reason.

Another thing I wanted to touch up on is Ghost. I feel like Ghost is a type that hasn’t directly benefitted from anything big that Pokemon Home gave it, but got better in the sense it can beat the types that did, making it a good anti-meta type at the moment. On top of that, Pokemon Home introducing Pokemon like Keldeo, Kyurem-B, and Jirachi in the metagame makes Dark much more shaky to use well, as these Pokemon worsens its matchups against top types, including Psychic. Ghost itself I believe is capable of taking on a lot of the types that got better with Pokemon Home at the moment with its array of options. It naturally has a good matchup against Psychic, can deal with Water using Polteageist and Choice Specs Dragapult, can beat Dragon using Choice Scarf Gengar, Dragapult and Mimikyu, Fighting with Gengar and Mimikyu, and Ice can’t remove Stealth Rock without running more niche Defog users. Chandelure is honestly a nice option to cteam Grass and Steel, as running a Substitute + Calm Mind set allows it to set up against Ferrothorn and beat the rest of the team with its STAB attacks. It can also play around Bisharp’s Sucker Punch in the Steel matchup which is incredibly valuable for Ghost. I think that Ghost is a good pick on both ladder and tournaments at the moment, and here’s a team I’ve been enjoying recently, you can find the paste by clicking on the sprites.

At first glance this Ghost team isn’t really your ordinary Ghost team with stuff like Sableye, Aegislash and includes niches Pokemon like Chabdelure and Dhelmise, but I basically made this expecting types like Fairy, Dragon, Steel, Ice, Grass, Psychic, a lot of the ones that benefitted from Pokemon Home. Choice Scarf Dragapult’s great against Dragon, and forms a Choice Scarf core with Gengar. Many teams are running double Choice Scarf in this generation, and Ghost is doable too. Chandelure really beats types like Psychic, Ice, Grass and Steel, the latter two which are important because the matchups can be hard with Protect scouting and Bisharp respectively otherwise. Infiltrator’s great for ignoring screens and beating Substitute + Toxic Aegislash by forcing it to change to Blade form and then attacking it behind the Substitute. Chandelure makes up for the Steel matchup too, especially when this team doesn’t have Choice Specs Dragapult, and Fire Blast has better rolls, but Flamethroeer can be used for consistency. Dhelmise removes Sticky Web with Rapid Spin, which is especially good against Fairy so Gengar can outspeed everything without having to worry about being slowed down and can also apply pressure on types like Psychic, Ground, and Water with Anchor Shot + Swords Dance + Power Whip. Rest of the team is fairly standard, Galarian Corsola for Stealth Rock, Gengar as the secondary Choice Scarf user with Trick for Toxapex, and Wood Hammer Mimikyu to better the matchup against Ground and Water. I feel like in the Water matchup you really have to try and outplay because of the lack of Choice Specs Dragapult, but it’s doable with Dhelmise, Trick Gengar for Toxapex and Wood Hammer Mimikyu in addition to Dragapult. The team loses to Dark, but honestly doesn’t matter because Dark isn’t common and Ghost loses to it a lot of the time anyways.


Think I’d need to experience it more but Kyurem-B seems more or less balanced right now. The main sets I’ve encountered are Dragon Dance sets, which is manageable with revenge killers like Choice Scarf Gengar, Jirachi, Flygon, and struggles to break through Steel-type Pokemon like Melmetal, Ferrothorn, and Aegislash. Over time I can see more sets starting to gain usage and players figuring out how to really take advantage of it, but for now it’s doing relatively well to what I thought before Pokemon Home dropped. However, it is a huge threat nonetheless that can threaten a variety of types with its options, even the fourth slot on Dragon Dance is flexible depending on what you want to do. Since my opinion probably isn’t too accurate, I think it would be a good discussion topic to start in this thread. Today I mainly wanted to give thoughts on Choice Scarf Dragapult and drop a Ghost team with it as well as thoughts on Kyurem-B, but I should play around with it more and experiment with different sets to get better insight.

 

[Havens]

Could we actually address a real unsung hero atm?

Ice Offense I feel is quite underrated and at a very high point in the metagame, and Alolan Ninetales contributes in so many ways. Having that access to the Snow Warning + Aurora Veil combo is harder to stop now with its rather fast speed tier for the meta and the lack of foes like Mega Diancie and Mega Scizor, and frees up forces like Galarian Darmanitan to opt for Choice Band sets and permits Kyurem-B's DD's to be much more effective than it is on paper. The speed tier is also great against the biggest threats in the swords (Keldeo/Terrakion) among other things and the Fairy STAB helps to secure matchups vs. Choice-locked Dragons better in its favor as well as Dark threats in Grimmsnarl and Tyranitar. All in All, Ninetales enabling much safer setup and breaking power is indefinitely scarier than ever before in this much faster paced metagame, even with Defog distribution returning via Pokemon Home.

+1 to thinking that Kyurem-B is balanced also. I thought it was gonna be pretty difficult on paper but it feels toned down in a manner of speaking. If anything, I'd argue that classic LO sets are better than DD sets considering BoltBeam coverage + Earth Power is hardly resistable now, especially since Freeze-Dry is taking on previous switchins such as Gastrodon and Seismitoad. DD sets also feel inconsistent and sometimes unusable in the sense that sets like Choice Scarf Dragapult are taking relevance and the usage of DD on Kyurem-B opens up doors for foes like Cobalion and Melmetal to take advantage of as those sets would drop Earth Power for its BoltBeam physical coverage.

 

[King Choco]

Mono council - when is melmetal getting suspected/banned?

 

[Zap]

Mono council - when is melmetal getting suspected/banned?

As of now the council has two mons that we are discussing. Kyurem-B and melmetal. While we agree they are very strong, there has been no overwhelming evidence to prove they are broken for the metagame and deserving of a quickban. However, if you feel differently I strongly encourage anyone to post about it with replays and why you think it deserves to be gone. As of right now we're going to let the metagame develop a bit as we would rather experiment, especially considering the constant changes home and dlc are bringing.

 

[Ronman5]

As of now the council has two mons that we are discussing. Kyurem-B and melmetal. While we agree they are very strong, there has been no overwhelming evidence to prove they are broken for the metagame and deserving of a quickban. However, if you feel differently I strongly encourage anyone to post about it with replays and why you think it deserves to be gone. As of right now we're going to let the metagame develop a bit as we would rather experiment, especially considering the constant changes home and dlc are bringing.

Makes sense since the DLC is only a few months away, by the time the metagame is settled and understands Kyurem black and Melmetals threat levels... that could get wiped away in June. I feel this is probably the best decision.

As for the above comments based on what ive played with i feel Kyurem black is more balanced now, and can fit a few more roles is all. Melmetals the one ironically ive heard people complaining about... but for my case it would be doubling down on a fire weakness for steel just for pure overall power

 

[Conflux]

Wanted to share a set I've been using for the last few weeks that I think is pretty cool, as well as my thoughts on Melmetal and Choice Specs Aegislash in the current meta.

Iron Defense+Body Press Corviknight

Importable

Corviknight @ Leftovers
Ability: Mirror Armor
EVs: 252 HP / 144 SpD / 112 Spe
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Iron Defense
- Body Press
- Roost
- Taunt

I first got the idea to use this set when I was preparing for my Mono Gens game against Yami and thought Steel would be a good idea to bring for the most part, except I knew he'd been using Ground a bit so I wanted to be ready for that matchup as well. The idea was basically get off an Iron Defense as he goes Rhyperior and then he would need a turn to Smack Down, and a turn to Swords Dance or Earthquake twice while I already have a boost and can just 2HKO (or 3HKO if he had HP) with Body Press. After that I've been using this set more and have realized how other than the Ground matchup it's really nice in the Steel mirror and against Dark. Aegislash and Sableye do shut this set down so it should be paired with something that can deal with those. Bisharp, your own Aegislash, and Ferrothorn's Spikes can deal with Aegislash, and Bisharp is actually amazing against Dark as Sableye can't touch it. Now this set is pretty useless against Ghost, bad but not completely useless against Psychic, and Water has Toxapex which takes very little even at +6. However, Bisharp, Aegislash, and Melmetal are all amazing against Ghost and Psychic, while Ferrothorn, Jirachi, and Specs Aegislash can overwhelm Water. Of course there are other Pokemon Steel-type teams can use to improve these matchups such as Lucario for Dark and Steel, but Lucario got worse because it's harder to fit with the introduction of Melmetal and Bisharp being really good in the current meta due to the rise of Psychic and Stallbreaker Mew, as well as Ghost which is a solid anti-meta type at the moment. The standard Bulk Up+Brave Bird set is still really good and even better in some situations, but I think based on what its teammates are and what types the team is aiming to beat, this Corviknight set can be pretty good.

Choice Specs Aegislash

Importable

Aegislash @ Choice Specs
Ability: Stance Change
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Shadow Ball
- Flash Cannon
- Steel Beam
- Air Slash / Shadow Sneak

This set has been popular in OU since Dynamax meta and since then I've seen it a couple of times in Monotype. However, it's a fact that sets such as Swords Dance, mixed Weakness Policy, and since the release of Pokemon Home, SubToxic, are the most popular. After spamming Choice Specs Aegislash for like a week I have to say this set is really good and should be the premier set on Steel. On Ghost I still prefer physical due to how many other special attackers Ghost has such as Dragapult, Gengar, Chandelure, and Polteageist. The reason I think this set is so good is because there aren't many resistances to Ghost, it's literally just Dark and Normal, making Choice Specs Shadow Ball coming off of 140 SpA pretty hard to switch in to. It's especially good against Water and Steel as they don't have good switchins meaning most of the time you claim a kill or get off big damage on something. I know some people like to use Shadow Sneak for emergencies even though it's a Choice Specs set, but I decided to try out Air Slash and it's actually pretty fire. Does more damage to Keldeo, hits Fighting-types in general for super effective damage which is great if using the Corviknight set above, and can flinch slower Pokemon if it comes to that. Overall I think more people should use this set as its amazing in the current metagame.

Melmetal

I've been playing around with this beast a lot lately. In my opinion it's not so outright broken that it should be quickbanned but I can definitely see it being suspect tested at some point in the future because it's a huge threat in the metagame right now. It's incredibly hard to OHKO, especially with a physical move or a non-STAB super effective special attack, and hits incredibly hard. In a lot of cases this Pokemon can just lead and get a kill. It has pretty much all the coverage it needs in Superpower, Thunder Punch, and Earthquake, as well as the option of Facade for Will-O-Wisp Mew. Steel-type teams are pretty stacked right now meaning it has the necessary support to aid it in some of its tougher matchups. If Ice and Fairy lost to Steel before, now they don't stand a chance at all. Dark has no switchin to Double Iron Bash except Incineroar which gets hit by Superpower. Psychic doesn't have anything that can switch in and threaten Melmetal, Dragon doesn't run anything that can OHKO it and its only switchin to Double Iron Bash is Duraludon which doesn't do anything to Melmetal, Poison only has Toxapex which gets hit by Earthquake, same thing with Grass which only has Ferrothorn that gets hit by Superpower. Overall this Pokemon is a pretty huge threat right now and should be a topic of discussion.

 

[Fírnen]

I'm going to talk about Melmetal

Next a few games played with/against Melmetal to have my opinion about it, I decided to write this post.
I won't hide it, I'd like to have a suspect about it and I will explain why.

- Reasons to ban it:
1 - Its first reason is because of sign move Double Iron Bash: 60/hit → 120 x 1.2 (Iron Fist) x 1.5 (Stab) = 216.
This move is ridiculous strong, 0HKO more than 70% (at least) the meta when it's played with band. Some people may say "Dracovish and its sign move are the same" but Dracovish doesn't have 143 Atk (Only Kyurem-Black and Haxorus have a better atk in mono).

2 - Amazing stats: 135HP/143Def makes Melmetal really strong physically.

2 - Its coverage makes Melmetal hits everything (EQ, Superpower, Facade, Darkest Lariat, Thunder Punch) which is annoying because you don't have really switch-in.

3 - Teammates: Melmetal has the chance to be well paired:
Bronzong gives it 4 turns to destroy the opponent, Jirachi the same in addition of Healing Wish.
Ground immunity given by Corviknight (who was already a strong Pokemon), Fighting immunity/neutral with Aegislash/Bronzong/Jirachi/Corvi.
Entry Hazard, Steel type uses many hazards this gen, which make Melmetal stronger.

4 - Because of its sign move, Sash isn't an answer to hope live once.

So, let's check what are answers to Melmetal for every types:
Steel: Ferrothorn, Corviknight, Aegislash, Melmetal. But all these Pokemon may be killed by EQ/Superpower.
Fighting: Cobalion, Bewear. But Cobalion can be killed by Superpower and Bewear max hp/def is 2HKO.
Dragon: Everything is 0HKO except Dracovish ("only" 64-76%).
Water: Quagsire, probably its best answer in the meta. Seismitoad defensive. Toxapex is 2HKO easily by Tpunch or EQ.
Electric: Rotom's (even if Superpower does more than 55-60%), and with Excadrill, rocks, it's hard to keep Rotom's with enough life. Vikavolt defensive can deal with it.
Fairy: lol. Babiri isn't an answer because of 2 hits.
Fire: Torkoal can live to one EQ banded, rotom-h.
Ice: Avalugg has 6.2% chance to live, but same for fairy, it's a lol.
Bug: Vikavolt.
Normal: Bewear. (Dubwool).
Grass: Rotom-H, Ferrothorn.
Poison: None.
Psy: Mew wallbreaker with WoW may annoying but if Melmetal is under trick room, it kills it, and Facade may be played to beat peacefully mew and next, u can cure Melmetal with Jirachi.
Rock: None.
Ground: Quagsire, Seismitoad.
Ghost: Aegislash but EQ can kill it.
Dark: Sableye even if it burns it can be 2HKO, so it isn't really an answer.
Flying: Corviknight.

We can see present meta can't survive to Melmetal offense, check are rares and may be pressured by teammates.

- Melmetal's weaknesses:
1 - Its speed: Melmetal speed is its weakness and strong at the same time, really dangerous under trick room and too slow.
2 - Its Sp.Def: If not played with Assault Vest, its sp.def makes it vulnerable to every Fire Blast/Flamethrower moves.
3 - No Fire check in steel type, Fire spam gives enough pressure but sometimes, Bronzong is played with Heatproof, and next, Trick room + Explosion/Steel Beam.

To resume, I think Melmetal is unhealthy for the current meta for reasons I've said, and needs to be suspected as soon as possible.