Resource SS OU Viability Ranking Thread [Pre-DLC]

SBD 1301 · May 4, 2020

Clefable should get it's own rank. S+ is too low for the best pokemon in OU. I propose a brand new Z++++ rank. But seriously, Clefable definitely deserves that rank. It's the most important aspect of any balance team, and the reason why those teams are so viable right now. Clefable centralizes the entire metagame at this point, if your team is weak to that archetype, then your team is unviable. Yes, there are ways to deal with Clefable, but that's where its other teamates come in. Afraid of Rotom? Switch into Seismitoad. You can't hurt Ferrothorn? Slap a Rotom in your team. Clefable is a great glue to pokemon without recovery, and the only real way to cripple is predicting, since Magic Guard gives it an immunity to hazards and status effects. So, yeah, Clefable *IS* OU's best pokemon at the time

Jordy · May 4, 2020

SBD 1301 said:
Clefable should get it's own rank. S+ is too low for the best pokemon in OU. I propose a brand new Z++++ rank. But seriously, Clefable definitely deserves that rank. It's the most important aspect of any balance team, and the reason why those teams are so viable right now. Clefable centralizes the entire metagame at this point, if your team is weak to that archetype, then your team is unviable. Yes, there are ways to deal with Clefable, but that's where its other teamates come in. Afraid of Rotom? Switch into Seismitoad. You can't hurt Ferrothorn? Slap a Rotom in your team. Clefable is a great glue to pokemon without recovery, and the only real way to cripple is predicting, since Magic Guard gives it an immunity to hazards and status effects. So, yeah, Clefable *IS* OU's best pokemon at the time

That's literally the point of the S+ rank. It's Clefable's own rank. There is no need to double down on this even further.

Hematite · May 4, 2020

Jordy said:
That's literally the point of the S+ rank. It's Clefable's own rank. There is no need to double down on this even further.

If I understood their post correctly, I think their first two lines were a joke/a slight dig at the fact that it did now have a rank to itself, while the rest (starting from "But seriously") was a more genuine support of its current placement as the only S+ Pokémon and a defense of the decision to anyone else who might question it. I don't think they actually wanted it to be higher! I can see why it would be easy to interpret that differently, though! The "that rank" in the third sentence was ambiguous enough that it could go either way, haha.

Deleted User 464209 · May 4, 2020

Silvally-Ghost UR --> B

Silvally-HypeTrain (Silvally-Ghost) @ Ghost Memory
Ability: RKS System
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Swords Dance
- Multi-Attack
- Flame Charge
- Explosion

Why use Silvally?

Basic balance cores get shredded by +2 multi attack -- there is very little in the way of resists in OU that also can take +2 explosion
- no really, +2 multi attack OHKOs Clefable, Rotoms, 2KHO Corviknight, Pex, Ferro, Toad, all of whom can't 3kho back.
- The might of ghost stab. Other silvallys are not viable in my experience.
Great complement to offensive dark types that want fat dark resists gone
A setup sweeper that isn't revenged by Conkledurr -- WOW! In fact, it can SD in conkedurr's face if needed, living guts knockoff
You get to laugh at body press pokemon
Impostor Proof (ditto and mew)
+1 Speed Silvally is faster than the unboosted metagame. Main threat is scarf hydregon
When the only speed control teams have is dragpult. zeraora, or conk, you just win if you get a flame charge off. It's really easy to come in when forcing clefable to wish
Spin block and live an EQ from excadrill

And, yes, UR to B because it takes advantage of all the common balanace and bulky stuff that is in the A and S ranks, only needing support for hydregon (which can you can explode). Probably even higher...it makes mincemeat of clef, corv, rotom/pex cores. I think it does this better than any of the other set up pokemon in the lower ranks; probably most similar to primarina in that it can just setup vs balance and win. Partners super well with NP hyreigon which also loves fat team metas.

Relevant Offensive Calcs. You'll see Rocks/Spikes are pretty key to get some KOs. Use it as a cleaner more than a setup sweep.

+2 252 Atk Silvally-Ghost Multi-Attack vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Clefable: 408-480 (103.5 - 121.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252 Atk Silvally-Ghost Multi-Attack vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Rotom-Heat: 298-352 (98.3 - 116.1%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO
+2 252 Atk Silvally-Ghost Multi-Attack vs. 252 HP / 48 Def Corviknight: 288-340 (72 - 85%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+2 252 Atk Silvally-Ghost Multi-Attack vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Toxapex: 169-199 (55.5 - 65.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Black Sludge recovery
+2 252 Atk Silvally-Ghost Multi-Attack vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Ferrothorn: 187-222 (53.1 - 63%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+2 252 Atk Silvally-Ghost Flame Charge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Ferrothorn in Sun: 316-376 (89.7 - 106.8%) -- 75% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
Flame Charge + Multi kills excadrill
252 Atk Silvally-Ghost Multi-Attack vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Dragapult: 402-474 (126.8 - 149.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+1 252 Atk Silvally-Ghost Multi-Attack vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Aegislash-Shield: 356-420 (109.8 - 129.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252 Atk Silvally-Ghost Multi-Attack vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Conkeldurr: 330-388 (94 - 110.5%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO after burn damage
+2 252 Atk Silvally-Ghost Multi-Attack vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Seismitoad: 273-322 (65.9 - 77.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+2 252 Atk Silvally-Ghost Multi-Attack vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Kyurem: 343-405 (87.7 - 103.5%) -- 25% chance to OHKO

+2 252 Atk Silvally-Ghost Explosion vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mandibuzz: 420-495 (99 - 116.7%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO
252 Atk Silvally-Ghost Explosion vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Hydreigon with LO damage: 239-282 (73.5 - 86.7%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Silvally-Ghost Explosion vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Zeraora: 278-328 (87.6 - 103.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
idk it's explosion it kills stuff. Mandibuzz is the important one.

I've found this is nice on weather teams too. Too sweep, it needs just a little bit of chip damage.

GMars screens I haven't tried with silvally. I've run it mostly on offensive teams where I need jolly to kill excadrill. adamant would definitely be nice for the guaranteed KOs, and the speed nature doesn't matter at +1 anyway. I'll give it a shot.

Imo the 4th slot priority is explosion, reversal, pivot move. Xscissor hits ttar exclusively. Instead, reversal under screens would beat both bisharp and ttar. Explosion I still think is best for blocking a defog or just removing mandibuzz from the game. Pivot I tried too; was nice to get say keldeo in for free.

James2464 · May 4, 2020

vs

currently resides in B+ while :Arcanine:

is at the bottom at C-

:Incineroar:

has about 2% usage while :Arcanine:

has 1%

Both have their own strengths and weaknesses

/

HP: 95 / 90
Atk: 115 / 110
Def: 90 / 80
SpA: 100 / 80
SpD: 90 / 80
Spe: 95 / 60

Incineroar is slightly bulkier than Arcanine both in Special Defense and Physical Defense. These are the most important stats for these pokemon since they are mainly used to wall certain mons and then pivot out. Another benefit to incineroar is that he has a slightly higher Physical Attack. This is useful since that means that he will be better at chipping his counters and he is able to attack Clefable a little better than Arcanine. Despite this Arcanine has a better Special Attack stat. While some Arcanine may run Flamethrower of Flare Blitz IMO physical is much better since you can damage Clefable alot more and recoil doesn't matter too much unless the opponent is running Rocky Helmet. Lastly, Arcanine has a much higher speed stat. This is pretty important since Incineroar is pretty much forced to invest in speed if it wants to beat Corviknight and Clefable. Arcanine is able to outspeed Conkeldurr, Seismitoad, and Kommo-o without any investment, and with under 100 EVs it can outspeed Adamant Dracovish and Bisharp. Incineroar can't really outspeed these types of pokemon without alot of investment which if it did invest, would results in alot of bulk being lost.

Conclusion: :Incineroar:

has a slightly better stat spread than :Arcanine:

due to more bulk and attack strength. Though Arcanine is faster and has a higher Base Stat Total the bulk is more important for these two pokemon

Both pokemon have a surpirsingly large move pool but they usually end up running similar utility sets

:Incineroar:

typically runs Flare Blitz, Knock Off, Parting Shot, and Taunt. Other viable options are Will-O-Wisp and U-Turn. It can also run an offensive set which would include Bulk Up, Flame Charge, Knock Off, and Earthquake. It can also run Drain Punch or Power Trip.

:Arcanine:

typically runs Flare Blitz, Will-O-Wisp, Morning Sun, and Teleport. Other viable options are Play Rough and Close Combat. You could run an offensive set on something like sun but it probably would be outclassed by Darmanitan

Conclusion: Both pokemon have pretty static movesets and it's hard to say which one is better. The benefit of Knock Off on :Incineroar:

is probably larger than the potential niche moves of :Arcanine:

.

Though both are fire types :Incineroar:

has a secondary dark typing compared to :Arcanine:

being a pure fire type

Weaknesses
:Incineroar:

: Fighting
Shared: Water / Rock / Ground
:Arcanine:

: None

Resistances
:Incineroar:

: Dark / Ghost
Shared: Ice / Fire / Grass / Steel
:Arcanine:

: Bug / Fairy

Immunities
:Incineroar:

: Psychic

Incineroar has an extra weakness which can hurt in alot of instances, especially against Body Press and pokemon like Zeraora and Conkeldurr. The Resistances can be beneficial in different matchups. The Bug resistance is only useful for U-Turn and a potential Durant. The Fairy resistance is pretty useful against pokemon like Clefable and some other random fairies like Mimikyu. For Incineroar, the Dark resistsance can help against Hydreigon and Bisharp alot and a little with Mandibuzz. The Ghost resistance is the most helpful since it can help against Dragapult, Aegislash, and Chandelure. The immunity that Incineroar has isn't that useful since that are almost no Psychic attackers and the ones that do exist usually have Fighting coverage.

Conclusion: While :Incineroar:

has better resistances his weakness hurts him alot compared to :Arcanine:

not having to worry about Fighting coverage. This would depend on what your team needs more

Both pokemon will pretty much always use Heavy-Duty Boots as an item so until they get knocked off neither one will get chipped by any hazards. :Arcanine:

has access to a healing move (Morning Sun) which only has 8 PP but is still fairly reliable. :Incineroar doesn't have any healing moves other than rest but because of its slightly better bulk it takes less damage from most attacks.

Due to how common Wish Clefable is Incineroar will usually be able to get healed but Arcanines ability to stay in for longer and heal consistently is really helpful.

Conclusion: :Arcanine:

has access to a recovery move which is very useful even though wish is pretty common. Both should really try to avoid getting knocked off so that they don't get chipped by Stealth Rock. :Incineroar:

having a resistance to Dark makes it less likely that it will get knocked off but overall Arcanine will usually be able to survive for longer.

-

Arcanine resists Fairy so it is able to safely switch into Clefable and with a small amount of investment Flare Blitz is a 2HKO
:Corviknight:

-

Arcanine doesn't have to fear Body Press and his speed allows it to avoid potential Bulk Up or Iron Defense stat boosts
:Dragapult:

-

Incineroar resists Ghost attacks and Knock Off give a high chance of a OHKO
:Seismitoad:

-

Incineroar is able to do alot of damage with Knock Off compared to just burning it with Will-O-Wisp
:Zeraora:

-

Arcanine isn't weak to Close Combat and with enough Physical Defense it's one of the best Zeraora counters
:Excadrill:

- Both do bad against Excadrill and they both just try to burn it if it switches in
:Ferrothorn:

-

Both are able to equally deal with Ferrothorn but I guess Arcanine is a safer switch because of Body Press
:Dracovish:

- Again both do bad but if Arcanine has 96 Speed EVs it can outspeed Adamant Band and potentially get a suicide Will-O-Wisp
:Aegislash:

-

Incineroar resists Ghost and is able to switch into Specs safely though it has to fear a potential Close Combat
:Rotom-Heat:

-

Inceroar using Knock Off is very useful to get rid off Heavy-Duty Boots and then Parting Shot deters Nasty Plot

Conclusion: Arcanine does slightly better against the top 10 and is able to deal with the strongest pokemon slightly better

Final Conclusion
:Arcanine:

From C- --> B- or C+
Both pokemon have their own benefits and problems so it is pretty dependent on the team. I would mainly say that if you find you are struggling against Zeraora then Arcanine would be more useful but if Aegislash is a problem then Incineroar would be better. If you have a team with one of these pokemon I would recommend switching them around and seeing which one fits your team better

Basic sets for the pokemon

aceguy123 · May 4, 2020

Only going to discuss what I disagreed with for the ranking changes (pointing that out because I agree with the majority of them and think the counsel did a good job).

Seismitoad to A+ I think is undeserved slightly. Yes it's the best Vish counter, yes it contributes to a crazy stable core, yes it is highly splashable, I still don't think it's as good on its own as any of the other A+ mons though. You can almost always play around it if you need to, I'm never feeling pressured by Seis personally.

Bisharp to A-, I think it could go higher potentially I'm not sure. Either that or many of the A- mons should go down...maybe it should be the latter.

Obstagoon and Primarina to A-, I don't think this is deserved for either. Both seem like B+. I think any mon in the A tier should have the quality that they nearly always put in work. Obstagoon and Primarina get stopped dead by some matchups like defensive Mandibuzz or Ferrothorn respectively for instance. I could be wrong on this and have noticed more people using them but I don't see them as any more threatening.

Salazzle to B is some sorta new hotness case, I don't think this is nearly good enough to be B, probably should be C+ or B-. In theory I'm looking at the rankings and see why it's high because it potentially gets a toxic on a lot of things, but I think in practice it gets toxic off once and dies and/or is invalidated by a cleric.

Galarian Weezing I think could go up one spot to C and I'd like to nominate it for that placement. I've been using it with Misty Surge and it's a pretty nice HO tech that could maybe slot on different types of teams. It's epic for allowing situations like Kommo'o DD setting up in front of Seis without worrying about Scald burn or Toxic. It has a few key moves that make it not entirely dead weight on its own. Memento gives you a free switch that lets you get at least one and probably a 2nd turn of setup. Aromatherapy cures stuff if the terrain wasn't set up in play or went down. The other underappreciated portion of the terrain is that Zeraora can set up, take chip, and not be worried about a revenge kill from Scarf Dragapult Draco Meteor.

Don't have a great replay to show this off but this one is pretty decent. It potentially dissuaded the opponent from bringing in their Weezing-G to will-o-wisp if it had it, cured Rotom of its Toxic and Memento'd out for a free switch. I don't think it's that hard to see the benefits of it, especially since I think the best setup mons currently are defensive setup.

Mantine I think could be brought up to C+ due to its defensive set. Having defog and Vish check on one role is really nice and it invalidates rain teams. I think it's underappreciated how it can take decent physical hits when running full phys def while at the same time being relatively safe on special attacks as well. It's like a hybrid Corv/Seis that obviously isn't as good as either but is nice if you're trying to run teams without them.

I'll go over stuff that wasn't touched in rankings (mainly Mew) later, otherwise I think even my disagreements are fairly minor so kudos.

GMars · May 4, 2020

Veez said:
Silvally-Ghost UR --> B
View attachment 243266
Silvally-HypeTrain (Silvally-Ghost) @ Ghost Memory
Ability: RKS System
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Swords Dance
- Multi-Attack
- Flame Charge
- Explosion

Why use Silvally?

Basic balance cores get shredded by +2 multi attack -- there is very little in the way of resists in OU that also can take +2 explosion

no really, +2 multi attack OHKOs Clefable, Rotoms, 2KHO Corviknight, Pex, Ferro, Toad, all of whom can't 3kho back.

The might of ghost stab. Other silvallys are not viable in my experience.

Great complement to offensive dark types that want fat dark resists gone

A setup sweeper that isn't revenged by Conkledurr -- WOW! In fact, it can SD in conkedurr's face if needed, living guts knockoff

You get to laugh at body press pokemon

Impostor Proof (ditto and mew)

+1 Speed Silvally is faster than the unboosted metagame. Main threat is scarf hydregon

When the only speed control teams have is dragpult. zeraora, or conk, you just win if you get a flame charge off. It's really easy to come in when forcing clefable to wish

Spin block and live an EQ from excadrill

And, yes, UR to B because it takes advantage of all the common balanace and bulky stuff that is in the A and S ranks, only needing support for hydregon (which can you can explode). Probably even higher...it makes mincemeat of clef, corv, rotom/pex cores. I think it does this better than any of the other set up pokemon in the lower ranks; probably most similar to primarina in that it can just setup vs balance and win. Partners super well with NP hyreigon which also loves fat team metas.

Relevant Offensive Calcs. You'll see Rocks/Spikes are pretty key to get some KOs. Use it as a cleaner more than a setup sweep.

+2 252 Atk Silvally-Ghost Multi-Attack vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Clefable: 408-480 (103.5 - 121.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252 Atk Silvally-Ghost Multi-Attack vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Rotom-Heat: 298-352 (98.3 - 116.1%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO
+2 252 Atk Silvally-Ghost Multi-Attack vs. 252 HP / 48 Def Corviknight: 288-340 (72 - 85%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+2 252 Atk Silvally-Ghost Multi-Attack vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Toxapex: 169-199 (55.5 - 65.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Black Sludge recovery
+2 252 Atk Silvally-Ghost Multi-Attack vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Ferrothorn: 187-222 (53.1 - 63%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+2 252 Atk Silvally-Ghost Flame Charge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Ferrothorn in Sun: 316-376 (89.7 - 106.8%) -- 75% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
Flame Charge + Multi kills excadrill
252 Atk Silvally-Ghost Multi-Attack vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Dragapult: 402-474 (126.8 - 149.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+1 252 Atk Silvally-Ghost Multi-Attack vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Aegislash-Shield: 356-420 (109.8 - 129.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252 Atk Silvally-Ghost Multi-Attack vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Conkeldurr: 330-388 (94 - 110.5%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO after burn damage
+2 252 Atk Silvally-Ghost Multi-Attack vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Seismitoad: 273-322 (65.9 - 77.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+2 252 Atk Silvally-Ghost Multi-Attack vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Kyurem: 343-405 (87.7 - 103.5%) -- 25% chance to OHKO

+2 252 Atk Silvally-Ghost Explosion vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mandibuzz: 420-495 (99 - 116.7%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO
252 Atk Silvally-Ghost Explosion vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Hydreigon with LO damage: 239-282 (73.5 - 86.7%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Silvally-Ghost Explosion vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Zeraora: 278-328 (87.6 - 103.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
idk it's explosion it kills stuff. Mandibuzz is the important one.

I've found this is nice on weather teams too. Too sweep, it needs just a little bit of chip damage.

On Rain
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1108313184 "Undeserved af "
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1108314740 Cookie cutter balance has no hope
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1108324778
Boomer Remover used Multi-Attack!
It doesn't affect the opposing Silvally Addict...
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1108327738

On Pseudo Rain
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1108548183
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1108558443

On Sand
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1108569791
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1108578852 takes advantage of break in screens
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1108597813
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1108601316
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1108604888 ignore the ending pls

On Sun
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1108707742
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1108717636
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1108721770 idk what happened here
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1108739931

Silvally-Ghost is something I've been using a lot recently on Screens since it shreds balanced cores, outspeeds and beats Pult and Zera easily after a setup, and since screens lets you catch 2x setup pretty consistently, the immunity to revenge killing from Ditto (and Conk) is huge. I can definitely get behind having it ranked.

Personally, I use:

Silvally-Ghost @ Ghost Memory
Ability: RKS System
EVs: 16 HP / 252 Atk / 4 Def / 236 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Swords Dance
- Flame Charge
- Multi-Attack
- X-Scissor / Rock Slide / U-turn / Explosion

Adamant's been crucial for ohkoing Clef builds that mix in a bit of physdef and making life harder for haze Pex, often preventing it from being able to just Haze then Recover. Still messing around w/ last slot, I've found it very team dependent so far. Removing ttar/hydrei has been nice for the specific screens team I built since it's paired with Necrozma, so I've mostly been using X-Scissor. I don't have any high ladder replays I'm willing to share for it yet to add more support to your nom, but it's definitely a Pokemon I've been building with for a bit.

Edit: Here's the team btw if anyone wants to try it out to get some first-hand experience w/ the mon: https://pokepast.es/9d47cf428c88124a

Ruft · May 4, 2020

Rises

B → B+/A-
I believe Salazzle's current ranking in B is underselling it. Being able to afflict everything with Toxic, even the likes of Toxapex and Corviknight, is exceptionally good in a balance-dominated metagame like this. It is especially vicious if you pair it up with teammates that can take advantage of Toxic, i.e., Pokemon with recovery and Protect/Substitute users. Black Sludge Salazzle with Substitute and Protect is nice, but I believe there is even more merit in Heavy-Duty Boots with Nasty Plot + 2 attacks. Its Poison/Fire typing allows it to serve as check to the ubiquitous standard Wish + Teleport Clefable, turning it into setup fodder for Nasty Plot, which also allows Salazzle to become an offensive threat thanks to its reliable STABs in Sludge Wave and Flamethrower in addition to its great Speed. I believe Salazzle has enough upside that it can easily claim a spot in B+ or potentially even the A ranks.

B → B+
I've talked about Crawdaunt before and I'll paraphrase it here. Swords Dance Crawdaunt is a balance breaker that greatly appreciates the current state of the metagame. It forces out common Pokemon like Clefable and Hippowdon and can capitalize on this by using Swords Dance, which allows it to OHKO many bulky Pokemon like Toxapex, Ferrothorn, and Seismitoad (which is something Dracovish cannot), as well as Zeraora with Aqua Jet. It is also able to revenge kill various other common threats like Rotom-Heat, Excadrill, and Terrakion (with some prior chip damage) thanks to Aqua Jet. In short, it can wreak havoc on many a team currently, especially typical sand teams. For this reasoning I personally believe a rise to B+ is warranted.

Drops

A- → B+
Clefable balance is more dominant than ever, far more so than hyper offensive teams. Cloyster only really fits on the latter and while its ability to flinch past its checks thanks to King's Rock is a scary trait, the surge of threats like Conkeldurr and Sand Rush Excadrill in addition to the ubiquitous presence of other Steel-types like Aegislash, Jirachi, and Bisharp that are used to threaten Clefable has made it increasingly hard to pull off a proper Cloyster sweep in practice. For these reasons I believe Cloyster doesn't quite belong in the A ranks any longer.

B- → C+/C
I don't have too much to say about this one. I think its current ranking is a bit of a relic of the past as it has certainly taken a hit recently, in part due to an uptick in the usage of Knock Off on Pokemon it's supposed to come in on, like Seismitoad, Ferrothorn, and Toxapex. B- certainly seems high to me for such a niche Pokemon.

Is Dracovish Banned Yet? · May 4, 2020

Kyurem in A is funny. Choice Specs is A+ at a minimum, and combined with the Sub/DD/Roost/Icicle Spear set (which is absolutely savage) I would put it at S-. Honestly if I look at all the A+ offensive threats, none of them compare to Kyurem.

Kyurem is probably the second "most wanted" suspect behind Vish right now except there's no omnipresent Toed equivalent that can stop it. Nothing in S+, S-, or A+ really bothers Kyurem. You have to go down to the B ranks where Snorlax is to see something that gives it trouble.

And I'll just say it one more time, people haven't realized how good Sub/DD/Roost/Icicle Spear is. Pressure is savage. I think it will catch on soon in the upper ladder.

Ur local kangaroo · May 4, 2020

Cinderace B ---> B+/A-

People Often overlook Choice band on Cinderace, Sure, that will give it its unwanted Switch-in 25% Health cut when Stealth rock is up, But'll also give it Some Stupidly High Power, Pyro Ball Went from being Good to Great, U-turn Is A Pain to deal with added on with the extra power, Sucker Punch becomes a Dragapult Remover tool (As long it doesn't DD) and the last move slot is filler (Iron Head Preferably, but Gunk Shot might work too)

Pokedom10 · May 5, 2020

I'll just make my stuff brief on the stuff I feel strongly about.

Clefable up to S+ - Agree

This thing is dumb. Meta Knight or Bayonetta? That remains to be seen.

Hatterene down to B - Agree

I've made my opinion on Hat clear in the past, but this drop still felt pretty deserved, as much as it pains me to admit. It's a slept on Pokemon for sure, but the main issue I've had with it is that it absolutely requires 1 perfect turn. CM and TR cannot be Taunted, but need the perfect opening and lose an attack in coverage that Hat really needs. Specs will destroy whatever is in front of it, but you need to get that prediction in to blow past them. I think that even in spite of how scary it can be, it has some consistency issues, though it can work past them with the right team.

Dracovish up to A - Disagree, nominating to A+/S-

The conundrum in place is simple. Is it a good Pokemon because of the factor it places on teams, and the threat it brings for being unprepared? Or is it inconsistent, because of the strain on teams? If every team has a check to it, does it diminish its viability? Or does it make it more viable, because every team has a check for it? I'm in the "This thing is stupid" camp. Dracovish is a wincon to kill all wincons. Every team needs a Water Absorb or else it runs the risk of having a Dracovish come in on something low risk and wiping the floor with them. In terms of skill? As long as you're not a dumb idiot and pivot on a Moonblast it comes in and presses the funny fish move that goes brrrr until it wins. The only thing the opponent really has to predict is whether it's Band or Scarf - but as we saw with Galar Darm, the consequences of guessing wrong can mean the difference between a win and a loss. The only reason it's truly inconsistent is because of the amount of Water Absorb Pokemon in the meta that exist almost exclusively to come in on it safely and keep the game going. Definitely an A+ mon, at minimum.

My own noms:

Nominating Excadrill to S-

Exca has no right being as good as it is. It smashes Clef to pieces and uses its typing and Equake to dismantle other mons with extreme prejudice. Rapid Spin was good enough as was and adding +1 Speed turns Exca into a threat for doing its job.

Nominating to C

I'm just gonna say it. Rain is pretty tough to do when the funny fish move that goes brrrr is around. Rain's biggest abusers were pretty much all cut save Ludicolo, and in its place we got stuff like Barraskewda who, in hindsight, only functions with Dynamax around.

Nominating to UR

Pretty much the above. It's a relic of the new toy syndrome and doesn't function very well in OU anymore, especially with Vish doing its job better. 1000+ speed in rain is funny, but completely excessive and loses to priority like Conk anyways.

premptive nomination (see below)

So you know how people say that Toxtricity is really strong, but was held back by Dugtrio too much to be viable? Well, Haxorus is really, really strong, but Clef holds it back too much. Suppose we fix that problem. Haxorus will be really, really strong. It's a B- if/when Clef is banned. For now I'll say it's fine in C.

Zapcre · May 5, 2020

Nominating Aegislash to S-

Aegi breaks Clefable, sets up freely on it and destroys most of A+ tier one-on-one,especially with air balloon. IMO it forms quite a nice combination with Clef, with Clefable destroying threats like non +2 Hydreigon. Yes, Inability to break R-Heat holds it back, but I still believe it deserves S- tier

Someone else should nominate Toxtricity to B-

JTD783 · May 5, 2020

JTD783 said:
to C

You're probably wondering why I'm nomming Stunfisk to be ranked in OU. In fact, you're probably wondering why I used it to begin with. Well, as all of my spicy meme teams start, I pick a few fun looking mons out of a random pokemon generator and build a team around them. Stunfisk ended up putting in some work. Why?

1. Stealth Rock user that beats Defog users

Stunfisk beats Corviknight with Discharge spam and can threaten Mandibuzz and Rotom variants, the latter on the switch-in, with Toxic. It lacks the raw strength necessary to reliably beat Corviknight on paper, but the yellow color means Corviknight usually loses in practice. At the very least it can cripple everything with status effects. This brings us to reason number 2.

2. Paralysis spam

As many ladder and tour players are aware, paralysis has always been ~~bullshit~~ relevant in battle. The current meta has few real answers to Thunder Wave spam, and Discharge functions similarly. It's fantastic for punishing the likes of Clefable, Hydreigon, and Dragapult, which could. otherwise come in on Stunfisk relatively easily. In addition, Static is annoying as hell. Any physical attacker runs the risk of being paralyzed. I've even made use of this by keeping Stunfisk as death fodder, dying to a physical attacker only to paralyze them in return. Incredibly skilled mechanic.

3. Solid Zeraora check

Not too much to say here. Zeraora can't do much to Stunfisk, and Stunfisk KOs with Earth Power in return. Grass Knot doesn't do much since Stunfisk doesn't weigh much, and Knock Off isn't a big deal either.

To summarize, Stunfisk's niche comes from its ability to beat common Defog users, spam paralysis, and check all sets of Zeraora, which other rockers, such as Hippowdon, Kommo-o, and Ferrothorn, cannot do as well or at all.

I recommend this core in particular:

+

Clefable @ Leftovers
Ability: Magic Guard
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD
IVs: 0 Atk
Calm Nature
-Wish
-Protect
-Moonblast
-Filler

Stunfisk @ Leftovers
Ability: Static
EVs: 252 HP / 232 Def / 32 Spe
IVs: 0 Atk
Bold Nature
-Discharge
-Earth Power
-Stealth Rock
-Toxic

Specially defensive Clefable is a fantastic partner for Stunfisk. It checks powerful special attackers like Hydreigon, Dragapult, and Life Orb Clefable and can keep Stunfisk healthy with Wish. Stunfisk can beat Corviknight and check most physical attackers in general. It also frees up a slot among Clefable's moves since it prevents Clefable from being forced to be the team's Stealth Rock user. EDIT: The speed on Stunfisk is to outrun Toxapex.

Replays:
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1077045780
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1077626891

I'm curious as to why this seemingly got no attention from the VR since it received a lot of attention when it was posted last month. Anyone have thoughts on Stunfisk?

Edit: Thanks talah, appreciate the quick reponse

talah · May 5, 2020

JTD783 said:
I'm curious as to why this seemingly got no attention from the VR since it received a lot of attention when it was posted last month. Anyone have thoughts on Stunfisk?

it didn't get any attention b/c none of us thought stunfisk was worth a rank consideration. it holds a very tiny niche that shouldn't really be grouped in the same ranks with mons like Sirfetch'd or Quagsire, who have defined and much more useful niches. it's a Ground-type Rocks setter, which already makes it compete with 2 of the best physdef blankets in the tier; it checks way fewer stuff than they do and it doesnt check them as well. the only real advantage it has over them is beating corviknight easier, while introducting a whole host of disadvantages. making it work will take a very significant amount of work and in the vast majority of cases won't be worth it regardless.

LorisMasta17 · May 5, 2020

I think I (and probably others) would like to hear reasoning behind Kyurem still not moving up to A+ rank. It's definitely one of the most potent wallbreakers and general threats in the tier. Maybe it comes down to needing specs for power (and still not getting the 2hko on broken I mean clef) and being prediction reliant?

trafalgarldwaterlaw · May 5, 2020

Umbreon to C
I think that Umbreon acts as an equally good wish passer as Vaporeon, with the addition of Toxic, a great wish passer.

Dreadfury · May 6, 2020

A few nominations of my own:

to A+ (but not S-)

While A is by no means a bad ranking, Dracovish is without a shadow of a doubt the single most oppressive presence in the metagame from a teambuilding standpoint. If Seismitoad truly deserves to be in A+ right now, then Dracovish deserves to share a spot in that rank. Seismitoad's extreme usage is a direct result of this thing's existence in this tier, and a higher ranking should reflect just how centralizing Dracovish is.

from A+ to A

This is an extremely controversial nomination, to be sure, and I can honestly see this thing going either way. Special Dragapult sets really don't appreciate how good Clefable is right now, and Clef has nowhere to go but up to boot. That said, the Dragon Dance sets that run Steel Wing can actually pressure it quite heavily, which is why I'm on the fence regarding Dragapult. Is the DD set enough to justify it remaining in A+, though?

and

from A+ to A

Dragapult doesn't appreciate Clefable, but it's still got enough merit to warrant potentially staying in A+ in my opinion. These guys detest Clefable and with Clefable being so good and having the potential to get much, much better as time passes I can't see either of these two staying in A+, although they're certainly still good in this meta.

to B,

to A-,

to B+, and

to A

This is a collective nomination for HO as an overall archetype, but I think each of these warrants some sort of a raise:

Gyarados isn't what it used to be by any stretch of the imagination, but on Screens teams this thing is able to pick up more than a single Dragon Dance, at which point it becomes an absolutely ridiculous threat that can be tough to revenge kill if it's running a 2-attacks set. Gyarados isn't magically amazing, but it's tends to be considered one of HO's staples for a good reason and I think it's got enough merit to rise.

Necrozma is great, and Srn's post covers just how much of an offensive behemoth it is very well. It has a lot of potential set diversity outside of Special Double Dance, and I really do think people can explore it.

I'm a huge Grimmsnarl stan and think it has well over a dozen potentially-amazing sets people aren't exploring as much as they should, but it is bar none the best Screens setter in the tier. It enables HO as a whole, and HO is currently one of the only non-WishPort Clef Balance playstyles that can actually do well in this metagame. This warrants a rise to the top of the B-ranks, IMO.

Bisharp would've definitely been a bit worse in the Melmetal metagame, but since Melm is currently banned this thing is able to seriously threaten a lot of common archetypes with its great STABs and Swords Dance. Defensive cores don't appreciate a Knock Off that actually hurts while still removing items (and Clef wants nothing to do with its STAB Iron Head), while offensive teams get mauled by the tier's strongest Sucker Punch. That said, I can see this thing staying in A- since Conk is absolutely everywhere at the moment.

And now for a nom from the depths of UR:

I nominate Charizard from Unranked to C or C+

Alright, alright. I know you all probably think this is an elaborate troll, but I can assure you that this is not an elaborate troll by any means. Sun has established itself as a perfectly viable playstyle even after the Arena Trap ban, and while many folks are obviously familiar with the Torkoal+Venusaur+Darm core that every damn Sun team on the planet runs, I feel that Charizard adds a little bit extra to these archetypes by essentially being a slightly faster, specially-offensive take on Darm's wallbreaking prowess.

The set I tend to run on my Sun teams is as follows:

Charizard @ Choice Specs
Ability: Solar Power
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid / Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Overheat
- Solar Beam
- Focus Blast
- Flamethrower / Weather Ball

The idea behind this set is extremely simple: get it in via a slow U-turn from a teammate like Mandibuzz and start clicking moves. Solar Power+Sun makes Zard hit like a nuke from orbit, potentially 2HKOing everything in the tier (barring Dracovish and Flash Fire users) with Flamethrower alone and getting some extremely disturbing OHKOs should it opt to click Overheat instead.

"Literally everything (barring Dracovish and Flash Fire users)," I said.

252 SpA Choice Specs Solar Power Charizard Flamethrower vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Toxapex in Sun: 161-189 (52.9 - 62.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Black Sludge recovery

252 SpA Choice Specs Solar Power Charizard Flamethrower vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Clefable in Sun: 339-400 (86 - 101.5%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO after Leftovers recovery

252 SpA Choice Specs Solar Power Charizard Flamethrower vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Rotom-Heat in Sun: 207-243 (68.3 - 80.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 SpA Choice Specs Solar Power Charizard Flamethrower vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Kommo-o in Sun: 210-248 (59.3 - 70%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

252 SpA Choice Specs Solar Power Charizard Flamethrower vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Primarina in Sun: 193-228 (53.1 - 62.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

252 SpA Choice Specs Solar Power Charizard Overheat vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Seismitoad in Sun: 399-470 (96.3 - 113.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

Focus Blast OHKOs Tyranitar; Solar Beam is really just there to hit Dracovish on the switch if you're feeling a little frisky. Zard really, really doesn't need to run it though. Weather Ball can be run to get a MUCH better roll against Clefable, but I personally prefer to run Flamethower so Zard isn't hitting like a wet noodle without Torkoal's Sun support. Overheat is there to guarantee an OHKO on virtually anything you can land the hit on.

Zard's Speed tier is extremely crucial and is the main reason why one would consider using it over Darm on a Sun team (although I run both frequently). It outspeeds Kyurem, Sigilyph, and Darmanitan; Darm ties with Kyurem and is outright outpaced by Sigilyph. Kyurem is a huge target to hit, as it frequently gives these teams a decent amount of trouble; Venusaur needs to be at +2 to OHKO it, and Kyurem can OHKO any member of the traditional Sun core outright.

Seriously. Give Zard a try on a Sun team at some point. You probably won't be disappointed if you play it well.

Obligatory Replays:

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1108609961

Zard kills my opponent's Milotic from 50% with a resisted hit, breaking my opponent's best defensive answer to much of my team and essentially winning me the game from that point.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1108143738

Zard claims three kills with little effort, including OHKOing my opponent's Clefable from full with Flamethrower.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1104425109

Zard cleans up my opponent's team with zero risk of being revenge killed by Conkeldurr's Mach Punch; Zard isn't spamming a move with a ton of recoil and resists one of the most common priority moves in the tier, giving it valuable defensive utility on this squad.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1101587713

Zard 2HKOs my opponent's only counter to Venusaur with Flamethrower, causing him to forfeit within six turns.

Spoontech · May 6, 2020

I think nominating Aegislash for S- rank would be a fair shout. It is currently by far the best choice specs user in the meta (better than Kyurem and way better than Dragapult), being capable of easily breaking Corviknight, Clefable (Flash cannon is like a 37,5% chance to OHKO and with using Shadow ball you can fish for SpD drops while covering a lot of potential switches), Toxapex, 50% chance to OHKO Conk (rising to 87% after rocks), 2HKOing Ferrothorn on the switch potentially, crippling mons on the switch with Toxic such as Hydreigon and Mandibuzz etcetera.. Oh and it can't really be revenge killed with priority bar sucker punch, but Bisharp is 2HKOed so it can't safely switch in either even though it resists its two STAB moves.

While specs is by far the best set, its banded and Swords dance set are no joke either. While I think banded is the worst of the three it still packs a hard punch, and Swords dance is able to set up for an insane priority sweep while hitting slower bulkier mons for insane amounts of damage when boosted. While these two sets are A+ at best, they are still insanely powerful.

A natural 60/140/140 bulk is insane as well, even with no investment it is above 300 so it can easily tank hits as well (think of Pex scalds or Clef moonblasts) on the switch and then put huge amounts of pressure on the opponent.

TLDR: Aegislash its specs is insanely powerful, and that makes it deserve S- rank. Shadow ball/Flash cannon goes bzzzzzz. This thing is literally the ultimate driveby.

paoisd · May 6, 2020

piggybacking on this aegislash nom i think the biggest thing about aegi is that you can't scout it. for example, if you think it's a physical set you might want to go into your hippowdon, but then it turns out it's specs and does 70 min, meaning either hippo dies next turn or something else has to take damage. mandibuzz can take any hit and outspeed, but if takes about 40% of chip it dies to banded cc and iron head, but more importantly it is easy to get that chip on mandibuzz specifically with specs because you can just toxic on the switch. it's not unreasonable to have a gameplan of toxic it on the switch, knock it off with for example your seismitoad when they try to defog, and then you have toxic+rocks chip on it the entire game and it can't reliably check aegi anymore. really nothing in this tier can reliably switch in to aegislash so i do think it should be up to s-, mostly because of it's specs set but also because the unpredictability of not knowing which set it is at first

Spoontech · May 6, 2020

paoisd said:
piggybacking on this aegislash nom i think the biggest thing about aegi is that you can't scout it. for example, if you think it's a physical set you might want to go into your hippowdon, but then it turns out it's specs and does 70 min, meaning either hippo dies next turn or something else has to take damage. mandibuzz can take any hit and outspeed, but if takes about 40% of chip it dies to banded cc and iron head, but more importantly it is easy to get that chip on mandibuzz specifically with specs because you can just toxic on the switch. it's not unreasonable to have a gameplan of toxic it on the switch, knock it off with for example your seismitoad when they try to defog, and then you have toxic+rocks chip on it the entire game and it can't reliably check aegi anymore. really nothing in this tier can reliably switch in to aegislash so i do think it should be up to s-, mostly because of it's specs set but also because the unpredictability of not knowing which set it is at first

Yeah I forgot to mention it, but you only know the set once it's too late. Even if you don't see the balloon you still have to guess if it's Leftovers, Specs, Band, LO and so on. Even if you switch in Mandibuzz on the Flash Cannon it still does enough damage to either force it to roost, or force it to switch out by switching in a mon that can reliably 2HKO Mandibuzz. And to be honest, Mandibuzz is it's only real semi-check. It has no real checks besides being scared out by revenge killers. However Toad, Clef and Mandibuzz itself are amazing pivots for Aegislash to tackle those hits.

Deleted User 464209 · May 6, 2020

I think this is all overstating how strong and how effective aegislash is. There are plenty of options to scout or deduce its set. when it doesn't run kings shield, it has 60/50/50 defenses...that's tissue paper. The only time I get scared vs aegislash is if they happen to use close combat along with shadow ball. Neither specs, nor band will do this. Idk why bisharp can't come in on specs...it's faster. Even if aegislash does net a kill, it's stabs are exploitable by a number of pokemon that can come in and set up for free. you do NOT want to be giving turns to zeraora, rotom-h, hydreigon or screens. That's not to say that it is not A+ quality, but I don't think anything has changed for the specs set that makes it any better; if anything, it does not match the breaking or sweeping power of other A+ like conkledurr or zeraora, and w.r.t. specs, there are better options in chandelure.

paoisd · May 6, 2020

i think the main thing that makes aegislash better than the other insane breakers in the tier is how easily it can come in on common pokemon in the meta. the undisputed two best mons right now (clef and corv) can not touch aegislash which is kinda insane because it just gets free turns. if you go into an aegi on clef wish they cant teleport because they risk getting destroyed by aegi and teleporting out is clef's biggest strength so by eliminating that for that turn aegi basically can hit whatever's coming in or making a double to cover the likely switch in and clef just cant do anything about it. same with corv because if it doesnt u turn on the aegi switch in than aegislash is getting a free turn to do whatever it wants because corv literally cant touch it and i actually think those are two incredible things for specifically the sd set because it can just get free setup against almost all teams because almost all teams run clef and corv

Spoontech · May 6, 2020

paoisd said:
i think the main thing that makes aegislash better than the other insane breakers in the tier is how easily it can come in on common pokemon in the meta. the undisputed two best mons right now (clef and corv) can not touch aegislash which is kinda insane because it just gets free turns. if you go into an aegi on clef wish they cant teleport because they risk getting destroyed by aegi and teleporting out is clef's biggest strength so by eliminating that for that turn aegi basically can hit whatever's coming in or making a double to cover the likely switch in and clef just cant do anything about it. same with corv because if it doesnt u turn on the aegi switch in than aegislash is getting a free turn to do whatever it wants because corv literally cant touch it and i actually think those are two incredible things for specifically the sd set because it can just get free setup against almost all teams because almost all teams run clef and corv

And while being a huge threat to Clefable, Toad and Corvi (Mandibuzz also in a sense that it can Toxic it), it is also a fantastic partner with them. Clefable/Defogger/Toad are able to tank hits for it once it has to switch out, spread status/heal up/U-turn right back into the menace.

MilkyWay · May 6, 2020

My brief thoughts after scanning the list and discussion:

C+ ---> B- / B
Mew has so many good sets such as suicide lead, cosmic power, and even the transform/block/imprison set on stall teams (I once got beat by a random dragon dance weakness policy set too) that I just don't think it fits in with more niche things like Sylveon and Diggersby because Mew is often the best at what it does in addition to being versatile and unpredictable. I've often used it as a suicide lead for hyper offense because it has a movepool (stealth rock, spikes, taunt, explosion, flare blitz, tailwind), sits at a good speed tier, and has the bulk to forego focus sash in favor of mental herb to beat terrakion/grimmsnarl leads (red card is also an option). I can't speak as much for the other sets as I haven't used them myself, but from what I've seen I just don't think Mew belongs with the stuff in C+, a subrank below Xatu, and two whole sub ranks below Tyranitar.

A+ ---> A
Tbh I just don't think Hydreigon fits in with the other stuff in A+ at the moment and it just stuck out to me like a sore thumb compared to everything else there. I can elaborate more if needed.

/

B- ---> B
I've been playing a lot with sun recently and I just think the addition of Weather Ball this gen made Venusaur really good (Giga Drain, Sludge Bomb, Weather Ball, Growth with Modest and Life Orb). The only things that really annoy it are Kommo-o, Mandibuzz (kinda), Incineroar, and Chandelure (the latter two aren't a big problem if you go Earth Power > Growth). Additionally, Venusaur isn't frail and can sometimes switch into bothersome mons such as Zeraora, Keldeo, Dravovish (under sun), Terrakion, and Conk and force them out under the right circumstances. It makes sense Torkoal should move up with Venusaur (unless we rank Venu in part for its physically defensive set) and is a good sun setter because it has access to useful utility moves such as SR, rapid spin (probably want a defogger still), and Yawn (to prevent set up).

UR ---> C-
I saw someone proposed ranking Charizard above and I actually made an RMT featuring Belly Drum Charizard recently here. The set is far from amazing and requires a lot of support, but it can easily set up on TeleWish Clef and 6-0 teams more often than you might expect if they lack priority that isn't Conk. There are replays in the RMT and I speculated on other zard sets there too. I'd say a set of solar power HDB defog that prioritizes wallbreaking is alright. Also, in past gens, I think Chansey and Toxapex are big reasons why specs solar power was not viable, but now that Chansey is gone and most Pex are running max physical defense for Vish, the specs set can finally break through:

252 SpA Choice Specs Solar Power Charizard Flamethrower vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Toxapex in Sun: 161-189 (52.9 - 62.1%) -- 99.6% chance to 2HKO after Black Sludge recovery

I don’t think Charizard is amazing or anything, but it seems to fit in at C-

TheArchangle · May 6, 2020

Clefable is so good that has anyone given thought to Eviolite Clefairy? I'm not saying to use it in place of Clefable, but to use it in addition to. I think people have become so accustomed to Wish/Teleport Clef that LO variants can catch people off-guard and obliterate some teams, while Clefairy still provides Wish support. Hell, you could run both as Wish/Teleport and just have a team that never dies.

Rotom-H, SpDef Clef, Hippowdown, Seismitoed, Boots Togekiss and SPDef Mandibuzz, Gengar, Primarina, and Toxapex are the only Mons between S and A- tier that aren't potentially OHKO'd by a Moonblast/Fire Blast/TBolt set with Rocks support, and every single one of those Mons I listed except SpDef Clef and Rotom-H are 2HKOd so it's a dangerous switch for them and are handled by Grass Knot Zera

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