pokemonisfun
Banned deucer.
In this post I argue we should immediately suspect something to deal with Dual Screens / Aurora Veil teams (henceforth referred to as screen teams). There were unfinished discussions on how to address complex bans in lower tiers with respect to Drought and I do not wish to start another discussion on complex bans before that is resolved. Therefore I'm arguing that we should "deal with" screen teams just to flag this as an issue over Haxorus - I am not offering a solution on how to resolve the issue. I argue that we should take action on Screens for three reasons: 1) Screen teams are uncompetitve in terms of match up fishing, 2) Screen teams create multiple overpowered threats (Haxorus, Blastoise, and Necrozma in particular), and 3) Screen teams are uncompetitive in skillless play.
For reference, this team is what I consider to be a standard Screen team but there are many others you can find littered throughout the forums.
Screen teams are uncompetitive in terms of match up fishing
Screen teams create multiple OP threats
Screen teams are uncompetitive in skillless play
Potential Counterarguments
For reference, this team is what I consider to be a standard Screen team but there are many others you can find littered throughout the forums.
Screen teams are uncompetitive in terms of match up fishing
By match up fishing I mean their match up advantage* has greater variance than a typical team.
*By match up advantage, I mean this definition: Team A has a match up advantage over Team B if Team A can win the game by making level 0 predictions (clicking Alomomola when your opponent has a Darmanitan out against a Blissey is a level 0 prediction for the Blissey user. If Darmanitan uses U-Turn, it's a level 1 prediction from the Darmanitan user since they predicted the Blissey switch). The more easily Team A can win the game by making level 0 predictions, the greater the match up advantage is.
So I'm basically saying, when you use a Screen team, you're more likely to have a very good MU or quite a bad MU - you're on either end of the spectrum, I am NOT saying that Screen teams always get good MUs (although I think they frequently do in my second reason). So what's the evidence for this claim? The best evidence is a sampling of some games that show how some teams are enormously weak to Screens:
*By match up advantage, I mean this definition: Team A has a match up advantage over Team B if Team A can win the game by making level 0 predictions (clicking Alomomola when your opponent has a Darmanitan out against a Blissey is a level 0 prediction for the Blissey user. If Darmanitan uses U-Turn, it's a level 1 prediction from the Darmanitan user since they predicted the Blissey switch). The more easily Team A can win the game by making level 0 predictions, the greater the match up advantage is.
So I'm basically saying, when you use a Screen team, you're more likely to have a very good MU or quite a bad MU - you're on either end of the spectrum, I am NOT saying that Screen teams always get good MUs (although I think they frequently do in my second reason). So what's the evidence for this claim? The best evidence is a sampling of some games that show how some teams are enormously weak to Screens:
- In this game, the Screen team just instantly wins whenever Blastoise sets up which it can do on many Pokemon behind Screens. It's not like the opponent was using a team full of bad mons - all of them are ranked in the VR and many of them ranked highly. The lack of bulky water is of course noticeable but not atypical in this tier now
- In a similar game, you can see the Screen team just auto wins again because the opponent is not using a bulky water. It's more or less impossible to stop set up
- In this game, the opponent does bring a bulky water - Araq- but still loses on match up because the team simply has too many sweepers to prepare for, and nothing can stop Necrozma behind Screens. It's not a matter of playing right or wrong, there is literally nothing the opponent can do once Necrozma sets up. You could argue they could have prevented Screens from going up by leading differently - true but it still seems likely Screens would have went up eventually
- In a stall game, you can see the Screens team has essentially no chance on preview because of the weakness to Toxic Spikes and inability to break through Umbreon, Quagsire and Avalugg
Screen teams create multiple OP threats
The OP threats are numerous, but I would argue Blastoise, Necrozma, and Haxorus are simply overbearing when behind Screens. The obvious problem is that they are nearly guaranteed set up because of their massive bulk behind Screens. The less obvious problem is that these Pokemon are walled by completely different Pokemon and after one finishes an attempted sweep, another can use time to take advantage of so called counters. For example, Blastoise can completely abuse Incineroar that tries to check Necrozma - which it cannot even do under Screens.
Why not ban the threats instead of taking action on Screens? Clearly this is a similar question to why not ban Venusaur instead of taking action on Sun - except in this case, it's absurdly clear that there is no single Pokemon like Venusaur breaking Screens. It's a combination of many threats like even C+ ranked Blastoise and Barbaracle. We don't know what to ban in this case, there is no Venusaur of Screen teams.
Why not ban the threats instead of taking action on Screens? Clearly this is a similar question to why not ban Venusaur instead of taking action on Sun - except in this case, it's absurdly clear that there is no single Pokemon like Venusaur breaking Screens. It's a combination of many threats like even C+ ranked Blastoise and Barbaracle. We don't know what to ban in this case, there is no Venusaur of Screen teams.
Screen teams are uncompetitive in skillless play
I'll preface by saying I think this reason is the weakest and either of the first two should be sufficient for taking action on Screen teams.
This is closely related to the idea that screen teams have unusually high variance in match up advantages. I know there is still skill in identifying which Pokemon you want to sweep with and when. But it's a totally different type of skill, and much less of it, compared to what I see in more typical teams. This is best illustrated when Screen teams play against other Screen teams:
This is closely related to the idea that screen teams have unusually high variance in match up advantages. I know there is still skill in identifying which Pokemon you want to sweep with and when. But it's a totally different type of skill, and much less of it, compared to what I see in more typical teams. This is best illustrated when Screen teams play against other Screen teams:
- In this game, the Veil team gets to set up an attacker first because they were able to seize the initiative first by using Explosion. And after the set up, there is no skill to be had. Just click click click and Haxorus sweeps.
- In another game, the Meowstic team is able to weather the storm from the screen team and set up itself while being attacked. Yes the Veil team arguably misplayed by not Subbing on turn 13 but in any case you can see it's not one side trying to outplay the other, it's just setting up with a decisive sweeper ASAP.
Potential Counterarguments
- Can't Ditto sort out the issue by revenging Screen abusers?
- This would be great if it happened, but I think this is on the burden of Ditto users to prove for two reasons - 1) the reason Screen teams work so well is because synergy. Even if a Ditto copies a Haxorus on the standard team for example, then Ribombee can promptly start to sweep and it cannot be revenged properly by Ditto.
- The other reason is this isn't exactly helping the argument that Screen teams is very match up based, I don't want to see games where if you have Ditto you win nearly all the time (and I don't think that's going to happen) and if you don't have Ditto you simply can't deal with Screen teams
- We are having enough issues with Sun and complex bans. Why go down this route?
- Because Screens is broken and just because something is hard or complicated doesn't mean we shouldn't do it. It's quite clear a Pokemon ban is not going to work in this case - we aren't about to ban Espeon, Vanilluxe, Meowstic and Xatu all together, and I'm certain others could take their role. And we cannot simply ban all the abusers because most offensive Pokemon that learn a set up move can be an abuser
- So yes, we most likely need a complex ban if we decide to take action, but we can do it as long as we make our arguments clear and reasonable. Nobody wants to see UU become a less competitive tier because of Screen teams
- There are other more broken Pokemon in UU right now like Haxorus. Shouldn't we deal with them first?
- I generally agree Haxorus and Necrozma are broken right now and deserve tests independent of Screen teams
- That said, I think Screen teams are just more broken and more uncompetitive. Haxorus isn't going to be instantly sweeping instantly in any reasonable game but abusers under Screen can
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