Resource SS OU Viability Ranking Thread [Pre-DLC]

[Mame YO]

Hmm. I wouldn’t go so far as to say that scarf Hydreigon is useless against spdef wishport clefable... you have other mons. U-turn into the specs Aegislash that you’re probably running imo. This two mon core is still really strong.

I’ve also found scarf Hydreigon to be quite useful as a check for fast mons commonly found on balance like zeroara and Dragapult.

 

[CreamyGlasses]

By that logic, Conkeldurr is bad just because if It's Preparing to Drain Punch on a Bisharp, and said Bisharp switches into a Ghost, It negates all damage. For real though, that situation you described is Unlikely to happen, because Stunfisk can use Earth Powder, Set up SR, or better yet, switch out

Sure, he might of lied, but you lied as well, TWICE, First you claimed that "Stunfisk can't wall anything aside Zera" yet stunfisk in the footage clearly walled More than Zera, And Second, It CAN get health back even after It lost Its Leftovers, Source: Wish Teleport Clefable. AND that doesn't even cover the fact that he might have NOT lied. How many EVs are in sp.atk? what the Nature? and is SR set up? you literally set the Bare Minimum for Stunfisk's Sp.atk

Also that ending to your post is a bombshell, The only reason why the Pokemon are in the tier-list is because their Potential has been explored, and Saying Pokemon In UR are useless when they might have Undiscovered Potential is bad

I'm not saying that. What im saying is that since corv is faster, even after para, it can spam defog on rocks, nigh guaranteeing that another discharge will come, making a switch to a ground free. Also, these grounds threaten 2hko's, and can set up rocks on the switch. To make the prediction to rock on the switch to the ground is a play that is very hard to do, seeing that the switch could come as any time. It also cant punish these ground types other than with generic toxic, which is even harder to click when staring at corv.

Also, hot garbage should stay UR. I didn't say it should stay in UR b/c it was unexplored, i said keep it in UR cause its baaaaad.

 

[aceguy123]

I'm not saying that. What im saying is that since corv is faster, even after para, it can spam defog on rocks, nigh guaranteeing that another discharge will come, making a switch to a ground free. Also, these grounds threaten 2hko's, and can set up rocks on the switch. To make the prediction to rock on the switch to the ground is a play that is very hard to do, seeing that the switch could come as any time. It also cant punish these ground types other than with generic toxic, which is even harder to click when staring at corv.

Also, hot garbage should stay UR. I didn't say it should stay in UR b/c it was unexplored, i said keep it in UR cause its baaaaad.

I don't disagree that Stunfisk is bad but your argument here isn't making sense to me. If the situation is Stunfisk vs Corv with rocks up, Stun goes for discharge and Corv goes for defog. Then there's a 70/30 situation where the best play for Stun is to use SR and Corv can spam defog. In there you can mix up Discharge though until you get the para or enough damage they feel like Roosting. If they switch you get rocks up because generally that's what you should be using unless the opponent hard reads your Discharge gambit. Once you have para you have advantage on getting full paras to combo more discharge damage and you can predict roosts with earth power since it's still faster.

So Stunfisk's matchup in that is better than you're suggesting. You say at the end toxic is hard to click into Corv but Stunfisk has all the leverage in the matchup, Corv can't do anything against it, so it's pretty free to click w/e you want.

Other stuff that has been brought up, disagree with Hydreigon drop quite obviously because its Nasty Plot set can destroy everything.

I actually agree with Kommo'o dropping at least one spot, I disagreed with it rising in the first place. Even as I'm using it more. While it's varied, it generally can lose to a lot of stuff it's supposed to beat like Zeraora just uses Play Rough, Bisharp has a good shot at outright beating it with a flinch. If you have a fighting resist or ghost type its defensive set can't dish out anything besides SR. Idk just feels like it's too match-up dependent whereas A+ is all good regardless.

Cinderace I think is probably okay where it is? I saw noms going both ways on it which might be a sign of that. I think Choice Band is actually pretty annoying for balance to face.

I'd like to hear some other thoughts on Mew if people have them.

 

[Srn]

I actually agree with Kommo'o dropping at least one spot, I disagreed with it rising in the first place. Even as I'm using it more. While it's varied, it generally can lose to a lot of stuff it's supposed to beat like Zeraora just uses Play Rough, Bisharp has a good shot at outright beating it with a flinch. If you have a fighting resist or ghost type its defensive set can't dish out anything besides SR. Idk just feels like it's too match-up dependent whereas A+ is all good regardless.

Nah Kommo is great where it is. It's true that zeraora can beat it with play rough, but it's usually not run in favor of knock, gknot, or bulk up, and even then play rough doesnt ohko. Also there's no real zeraora "counters" anyway so w/e. If bisharp is flinching you, you're running a bad kommo spread. You should at least be hitting 250 for adamant band dracovish, which also covers adamant bisharp. It's true that the defensive sets aren't kinda helpless vs ghosts/fighting resists, but yeah, it's a defensive pokemon, not a wallbreaker. It does its job fine.

And speaking of SR, corviknight is probably the best hazard removal that any OU tier has ever seen, and kommo is one of the few rockers that can keep rocks up vs corv; that alone is pretty huge. Finally, I think it's the opposite of match-up dependent. It can run taunt to pressure fatter teams and not let up momentum, or run iron defense to act as a decent wincon, especially against physically oriented HO. The mons it checks are constantly seen, shit like bisharp, exca, dracovish, aegislash etc are all over the place. I don't understand how kommo is a MU fish.

 

[JTD783]

But like, why stunfisk? Just because it can beat corv 1v1 w/ para hax doesn't really mean anything when corv can just switch to seismatoad or any other ground type when its sure the discharge and not the rocks are coming.

It also walls nothing, besides perhaps zera, which admittedly after running the calcs it does very well. But you straight up lie in your post, earth power is a 2hko on zera, which isnt good since once fisk is knocked it cant regain hp.

0 SpA Stunfisk Earth Power vs. 0 HP / 0- SpD Zeraora: 218-260 (68.7 - 82%) -- guaranteed 2HKO .

Honestly, I can't think of a single team that would not rather have toad. Obv fisk is a meme pick but C tier has some pokes perhaps worth bringing, like ludicolo with rain or ninetales alola for screens. Sure C teir is for gimmicks, but stunfisk isn't a gimmick... its bad.

Just my thoughts, and your post is well written, but just for the sake of keeping the VR filled only with pokes worth using, I would keep this thing unranked.

I won't go too in-depth with this because the council and I have already concurred that Stunfisk is generally too niche to warrant a ranking.

"Why Stunfisk?" is outlined very clearly in the post. Corv can't safely go Toad or another Ground-type for fear of Toxic, and Stunfisk doesn't need to predict much as Corv can't do anything back.

I never claimed that Stunfisk walls anything besides Zeraora. It serves as a check to some meta-relevant threats but does not have the raw bulk nor reliable recovery to stop them in the long run, unless Clef heals it. I also stated that Stunfisk KOs Zeraora with Earth Power. I did not specify an OHKO nor a 2HKO, I just said that it kills. I apologize for the ambiguous language with that; thanks for pointing it out.

Most teams would rather run Toad, but Stunfisk does have a slight niche, albeit not one big enough to earn a ranking.

 

[CreamyGlasses]

I won't go too in-depth with this because the council and I have already concurred that Stunfisk is generally too niche to warrant a ranking.

"Why Stunfisk?" is outlined very clearly in the post. Corv can't safely go Toad or another Ground-type for fear of Toxic, and Stunfisk doesn't need to predict much as Corv can't do anything back.

I never claimed that Stunfisk walls anything besides Zeraora. It serves as a check to some meta-relevant threats but does not have the raw bulk nor reliable recovery to stop them in the long run, unless Clef heals it. I also stated that Stunfisk KOs Zeraora with Earth Power. I did not specify an OHKO nor a 2HKO, I just said that it kills. I apologize for the ambiguous language with that; thanks for pointing it out.

Most teams would rather run Toad, but Stunfisk does have a slight niche, albeit not one big enough to earn a ranking.

True. Just don't nom things you know would be a stretch to get in. I see VR's from last gen and they get waaaaaaaaaaaay crowded when the tier leaders get too inclusive, adding ranks and giving them to pokes with no real niche.

Running any pokemon is better than playing down 5v6, and this gives many the illusion of viability. When the VR indulges this the VR gets bad quick.

And yeah, it is partially the responsibility of the poster to make sure what they say is true, as the people who run the VR don't have unlimited time to fact check your claims.

I don't hate when people nominate unorthodox things but it better have legitimate use at high ladder before you have the confidence to do so.

 

[Spoontech]

I won't go too in-depth with this because the council and I have already concurred that Stunfisk is generally too niche to warrant a ranking.

"Why Stunfisk?" is outlined very clearly in the post. Corv can't safely go Toad or another Ground-type for fear of Toxic, and Stunfisk doesn't need to predict much as Corv can't do anything back.

I never claimed that Stunfisk walls anything besides Zeraora. It serves as a check to some meta-relevant threats but does not have the raw bulk nor reliable recovery to stop them in the long run, unless Clef heals it. I also stated that Stunfisk KOs Zeraora with Earth Power. I did not specify an OHKO nor a 2HKO, I just said that it kills. I apologize for the ambiguous language with that; thanks for pointing it out.

Most teams would rather run Toad, but Stunfisk does have a slight niche, albeit not one big enough to earn a ranking.

That's a big unless, seeing as Clef is on 90% of the teams nowadays.

 

[Thunder Pwoell]

I’m nominating pangoro for B/B- rank. The panda has a really good moveset and purpose in this extremely skewed tier and what not. It's typing gives it really good resistances against annoying shit like dragapult, bisharp, ferro, and ttar, and it's natural bulk allows it to TANK a lot of strong neutral hits and just oko the fuck back, for example it lives lo orb adamant EQ from exacadrill and of course it's okoing back with drain or CC.

But enough of things going everywhere, lets get an overview.

pangoro is a Dark/Fighting type with the stats 95/124/78/69/58
it's abilities are mold breaker, iron fist, & scrappy , all good choices to choose from, and it's notable moves are (*takes in big breath*):

bullet punch, taunt, parting shot, hammer arm, beat up, body slam, close combat, darkest lariat, dragon claw, drain punch, earthquake, fire punch, foul play, grass knot, gunk shit, ice punch, outrage, poison jab, reversal, knock off, swords dance, thunder punch, focus punch, zen headbutt, and x-scissor.

Now I know this is an incredible moveset choice, type, and stats with the only thing holding it back is it's speed. but heres the thing, it's pretty naturally bulky defensive, just either max hp it, band it, lo bulky set up it, or fucking up that spdef stats and use AV. With any of these it starts putting in fucking WORK.

Adamant CC is obviosuly fucking running game on mons in the tier and if you decide to use AV, you can live specs kyurem draco meteor with like 40% hp and fucking OKO back easily, or kill it early with iron fist Bullet punch anyway. The downsides of it being slow really dont matter, that' what your team is for and this tier is slow anyway. you get in, you fuck shit up and you leave. You also threaten the allmighty clef with gunk shot (doing like 85% to defensive clef) or even bullet and you kill all the fat shit that's running around the tier.

The downside is that youre weak to fairy and flying so togekiss is your natural counter but the hilarious thing is that you will be carrying gunk and/or bullet anyway so what the fuck ever. air slash wont kill you.

So now we go onto the replays: I’m going to RMT this and put it in heat because it started as an experiment but here you go, high ladder replays to appease the smogon tyrant oligarchs that need to be overthrown (remember their authority is fake and artificial, nothing about them makes them better than you, power to the people):

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1113339628
Because it's slow af, run game on the tr squads
kills the specs kyu and lives draco
that sweep, fuck ya
mid ladder fucking shit up
different set but high ladder

 

[CreamyGlasses]

I’m nominating pangoro for B/B- rank. The panda has a really good moveset and purpose in this extremely skewed tier and what not. It's typing gives it really good resistances against annoying shit like dragapult, bisharp, ferro, and ttar, and it's natural bulk allows it to TANK a lot of strong neutral hits and just oko the fuck back, for example it lives lo orb adamant EQ from exacadrill and of course it's okoing back with drain or CC.

But enough of things going everywhere, lets get an overview.

View attachment 244956
pangoro is a Dark/Fighting type with the stats 95/124/78/69/58
it's abilities are mold breaker, iron fist, & scrappy , all good choices to choose from, and it's notable moves are (*takes in big breath*):

bullet punch, taunt, parting shot, hammer arm, beat up, body slam, close combat, darkest lariat, dragon claw, drain punch, earthquake, fire punch, foul play, grass knot, gunk shit, ice punch, outrage, poison jab, reversal, knock off, swords dance, thunder punch, focus punch, zen headbutt, and x-scissor.

Now I know this is an incredible moveset choice, type, and stats with the only thing holding it back is it's speed. but heres the thing, it's pretty naturally bulky defensive, just either max hp it, band it, lo bulky set up it, or fucking up that spdef stats and use AV. With any of these it starts putting in fucking WORK.

Adamant CC is obviosuly fucking running game on mons in the tier and if you decide to use AV, you can live specs kyurem draco meteor with like 40% hp and fucking OKO back easily, or kill it early with iron fist Bullet punch anyway. The downsides of it being slow really dont matter, that' what your team is for and this tier is slow anyway. you get in, you fuck shit up and you leave. You also threaten the allmighty clef with gunk shot (doing like 85% to defensive clef) or even bullet and you kill all the fat shit that's running around the tier.

The downside is that youre weak to fairy and flying so togekiss is your natural counter but the hilarious thing is that you will be carrying gunk and/or bullet anyway so what the fuck ever. air slash wont kill you.

So now we go onto the replays: I’m going to RMT this and put it in heat because it started as an experiment but here you go, high ladder replays to appease the smogon tyrant oligarchs that need to be overthrown (remember their authority is fake and artificial, nothing about them makes them better than you, power to the people):

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1113339628
Because it's slow af, run game on the tr squads
kills the specs kyu and lives draco
that sweep, fuck ya
mid ladder fucking shit up

Please explain why ever to use this over AV conk or CB sirfetchd. Yeah most mons have a laundry list of good moves and impressive calcs, now explain what teams benefit so greatly for pangoros inclusion over other fighting types (which are plenty) to warrant B rank (which admittedly is full of gimmicky options, but still.)

 

[Thunder Pwoell]

Please explain why ever to use this over AV conk or CB sirfetchd. Yeah most mons have a laundry list of good moves and impressive calcs, now explain what teams benefit so greatly for pangoros inclusion over other fighting types (which are plenty) to warrant B rank (which admittedly is full of gimmicky options, but still.)

did you watch a single replay? like at all? they are different types, have different moves, different viable abilities, much different bulks, different resistances, differing speed tiers and differing viable sets. what are you talking about?

 

[matthewc20090]

did you watch a single replay? like at all? they are different types, have different moves, different viable abilities, much different bulks, different resistances, differing speed tiers and differing viable sets. what are you talking about?

did you not read his question he asked why its better not why its different

 

[BlueLobster]

Please explain why ever to use this over AV conk or CB sirfetchd. Yeah most mons have a laundry list of good moves and impressive calcs, now explain what teams benefit so greatly for pangoros inclusion over other fighting types (which are plenty) to warrant B rank (which admittedly is full of gimmicky options, but still.)

Really just looking at their typings and movesets its really obvious why omari chose AV pangoro over another fighting, ghost resists are massively lacking in this meta and pangoro is a decent enough one, which conk and sirfetchd (which is honestly not even similar to the other 2) can't really do. In case you don't believe me:

252+ SpA Choice Specs Aegislash-Blade Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Assault Vest Conkeldurr: 214-253 (51.6 - 61.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ SpA Choice Specs Aegislash-Blade Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Assault Vest Pangoro: 100-118 (25.3 - 29.9%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Stealth Rock

This is forcing specs aegi to click flash cannon instead, causing a 50/50 of if you go to your corv/other steel resist or pangoro. Conk doesn't have that kind of effect and can't come in at all, so aegi can freely click shadow ball and probably claim a mon. Its a similar case with specs dragapult (on the decline, ik) being forced to uturn or draco since sball isn't doing shit to pangoro. On top of that pangoro has stronger knock offs cause of stab, natually higher speed so you can run speed for neutral uninvested clef (I suspect a lot of people don't optimise their clef speeds for slow tport, at least on ladder) without it really impacting your bulk, marginally better special bulk anyway (assuming 252/4 investment, which appears to be what omari is running) and has a notably better fairy hitting move in gunk shot. I've tried out AV pangoro for a couple of games and I see its merit as a set/mon, being able to provide a soft check to ghosts and take hits from mons like kyu and kill back is really cool, most the people I've faced stayed in expecting it to be not AV as well and even if they switch you get a free hit off. It's kinda team specific and you're often going to overlook it in favour of flame orb conk cause its a notably better breaker but on teams with a notable weakness to gengar (ghosts in general tbh) or kyu (which is a good amount of teams ngl) that have another breaker since its notably weaker than flame orb conk it seems like a pretty valid option to me. I think B/B- is a bit of a stretch but its definitely on par with, if not better than, a lot of the niche stuff hanging around in the C ranks and I support it getting ranked somewhere, and if stuff like pangoro and the previously discussed stunfisk nom are "too niche" to deserve a rank then the lower ranks definitely need looking at because I don't see how mons like barraskewda and haxorus are more good/viable/splashable than these mons.

edit for CreamyGlasses: Please look up what "soft check" means man

Now, about the bigger noms:

Hydreigon: Stay in A+ This thing is still really scary, modest LO doesn't really have any common defensive answers (it has a 68.8% chance to ohko SpD clef from full, so no clef isn't much of an issue for it) and I don't see how its gotten any worse outside of maybe the scarf set which is never the set it was A+ because of, np was always the better set.
Kyurem to A+ This is probably the biggest threat in the meta that also happens to have good speed and bulk and can fit on most teams, I really don't see how it isn't A+. The common answers to specs lose to freeze long term since their only way of winning is try to pp stall it when it runs 2 ice moves, and it has the sub roost set too, although that one isn't as scary can prove a huge threat to certain builds.
Mew --> Higher This seems like its still ranked based on its lead set alone, when the block imprison transform set has come about, and it also has the setup sets. Cosmic power body press is a relatively recent set that hasn't been accounted for in its current VR rank, and NP is also really good atm since most teams are things slower than it + zera/pult and it has the options to break through everything. I think it's time for this to hit the at least B-, although personally I think it fits alongside its competition as a setup psychic, necrozma and reuni, in the B rank. I'd also support a reuni drop bc it just isn't as good as necroz/mew but I can't be bothered to make a detailed nom (tho I might edit one in later).

 

[Padstar34]

Bisharp: A- to A/A+
I honestly don't think that Bisharp should be below any of the A tier mons. Bisharp is extremely strong, and after 1 swords dance, can OHKO nearly everything in the metagame. The few mons that don't live in fear of Bisharp is Obstagoon, Hydreigon, Conkeldurr, Kommo-o, Keldeo, Max Defense Corviknight, Hippowdon, Rotom Heat with will o wisp and Ferrothorn with body press. The problem is, however, that all of these but Hippowdown lose to the 1v1 to a max defense, calm mind Clefable. All but Hydreigon lose a 1v1 to scarf Vish. Bisharp has the brilliant ability to sweep through weakened teams with ease, once the listed threats are all gone. Additionally, it is not too hard for Bisharp to find an Oppurtunity to swords dance, as Grimmsnarl, Clefable, and choice locked kiss being unable to do much to Bisharp.

 

[CreamyGlasses]

Really just looking at their typings and movesets its really obvious why omari chose AV pangoro over another fighting, ghost resists are massively lacking in this meta and pangoro is a decent enough one, which conk and sirfetchd (which is honestly not even similar to the other 2) can't really do. In case you don't believe me:

252+ SpA Choice Specs Aegislash-Blade Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Assault Vest Conkeldurr: 214-253 (51.6 - 61.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ SpA Choice Specs Aegislash-Blade Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Assault Vest Pangoro: 100-118 (25.3 - 29.9%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Stealth Rock

This is forcing specs aegi to click flash cannon instead, causing a 50/50 of if you go to your corv/other steel resist or pangoro. Conk doesn't have that kind of effect and can't come in at all, so aegi can freely click shadow ball and probably claim a mon. Its a similar case with specs dragapult (on the decline, ik) being forced to uturn or draco since sball isn't doing shit to pangoro. On top of that pangoro has stronger knock offs cause of stab, natually higher speed so you can run speed for neutral uninvested clef (I suspect a lot of people don't optimise their clef speeds for slow tport, at least on ladder) without it really impacting your bulk, marginally better special bulk anyway (assuming 252/4 investment, which appears to be what omari is running) and has a notably better fairy hitting move in gunk shot. I've tried out AV pangoro for a couple of games and I see its merit as a set/mon, being able to provide a soft check to ghosts and take hits from mons like kyu and kill back is really cool, most the people I've faced stayed in expecting it to be not AV as well and even if they switch you get a free hit off. It's kinda team specific and you're often going to overlook it in favour of flame orb conk cause its a notably better breaker but on teams with a notable weakness to gengar (ghosts in general tbh) or kyu (which is a good amount of teams ngl) that have another breaker since its notably weaker than flame orb conk it seems like a pretty valid option to me. I think B/B- is a bit of a stretch but its definitely on par with, if not better than, a lot of the niche stuff hanging around in the C ranks and I support it getting ranked somewhere, and if stuff like pangoro and the previously discussed stunfisk nom are "too niche" to deserve a rank then the lower ranks definitely need looking at because I don't see how mons like barraskewda and haxorus are more good/viable/splashable than these mons.

252 SpA Choice Specs Dragapult Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Assault Vest Pangoro: 234-276 (59.3 - 70%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Life Orb Mimikyu Play Rough vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Pangoro: 733-863 (186 - 219%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Aegislash-Blade Flash Cannon vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Assault Vest Pangoro: 201-237 (51 - 60.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Gengar Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Assault Vest Pangoro: 232-274 (58.8 - 69.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Chandelure Overheat vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Assault Vest Pangoro: 304-358 (77.1 - 90.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Nice ghost check. Its a fine pivot i guess, until you realize 125 attack with no boosting item hardly gets anywhere in this meta. 252 hp evs means its outsped by all the ghosts in ou as well.

And yeah I agree it can go somewhere on this viability, especially when its competing with like, crawdaunt: but DAMN, my man literally went onto showdown, copy pasted its good moves, and wrote a paragraph explaining generic fighting type things not unique at all to pangoro.

Im sorry, if the closest thing to analysis you have is "and if you decide to use AV, you can live specs kyurem draco meteor with like 40% hp and fucking OKO back easily, or kill it early with iron fist Bullet punch anyway." (which also applies to AV conkeldurr and its mach punch btw) ima say hell no.

 

[Martin]

--> B+/A-
Salazzle is mad good. It has a good matchup vs a number of very common balance cores (notably shutting down big chunks of WishPort balance—fucks with Corv, Clef and Ferro and cripples just about every relevant response to its STABs/Primarina/Keldeo with Toxic thanks to Corrosion) and does a very good job of pressuring stuff throughout the match. Its power is… admittedly kinda lacklustre, and that can be fairly problematic if its your only mon faster than Hydreigon/Gengar/similar, but given the types of builds I keep finding myself putting Salazzle on it really isn't the end of the world most games and I am often able to rely on the wincon of "get X mon(s) toxiced and then sit laughing behind Primarina's Sub while they fight a losing war to poison."

--> A-
Maybe others have had different experiences with this thing, but I've tried to use Terrakion a few times over the past few weeks and it's always felt sorta underwhelming. It really is horrible to try and switch into if you don't have certain Pokemon and/or cores in the back, but frankly sand balance (and Conkeldurr) are so common at the moment that it often ends up feeling like sorta dead weight in a lot of games even with the SpD boost from sand bc you can just exploit it with Drill/Conk (both really bad situations) and you can't break as reliably as you'd like while Hippo is there—mostly bc it invalidates Stone Edge while pairing really well with CC responses. Relying on Stone Edge to have that catch-all offensive move versus certain defensive cores is also pretty frustrating, and I often find myself in a position where I'm in an advantage state but am forced to use Stone Edge and then miss and end up in heavy disadvantage because of it.

--> A+
--> ?
No specific nom for the bottom trio bc I'm not completely sure about the specifics of how I think they should be ranked relative to each other. Kyurem should absolutely be A+ regardless of the other three as it is clearly far scarier than all of them in a Dracovish meta, being largely impossible to build/play against for certain types of builds considering that most of its better dedicated answers are not easy to fit onto teams when #Dracovish is a thing. The other three nommed to ? because I'm not really sure how they should all rank compared to each other but am confident that Dracovish is at the very least not "less viable" than either of them.

 

[Padstar34]

252 SpA Choice Specs Dragapult Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Assault Vest Pangoro: 234-276 (59.3 - 70%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Life Orb Mimikyu Play Rough vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Pangoro: 733-863 (186 - 219%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Aegislash-Blade Flash Cannon vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Assault Vest Pangoro: 201-237 (51 - 60.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Gengar Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Assault Vest Pangoro: 232-274 (58.8 - 69.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Chandelure Overheat vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Assault Vest Pangoro: 304-358 (77.1 - 90.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Nice ghost check. Its a fine pivot i guess, until you realize 125 attack with no boosting item hardly gets anywhere in this meta. 252 hp evs means its outsped by all the ghosts in ou as well.

And yeah I agree it can go somewhere on this viability, especially when its competing with like, crawdaunt: but DAMN, my man literally went onto showdown, copy pasted its good moves, and wrote a paragraph explaining generic fighting type things not unique at all to pangoro.

Im sorry, if the closest thing to analysis you have is "and if you decide to use AV, you can live specs kyurem draco meteor with like 40% hp and fucking OKO back easily, or kill it early with iron fist Bullet punch anyway." (which also applies to AV conkeldurr and its mach punch btw) ima say hell no.

But pangoro does check them. None of those calcs are OHKO's, meaning Pangoro hits them back with a knock off and OHKO's all but mimikyu, but why would you bother to stay in on a mimikyu? Plus he has shown examples of why to use pangoro over conk. He hasn't just said generic fighting type qualities.

 

[Thunder Pwoell]

I’m not going to bother responding directly but just for everyone here, It's better to actually put your points into spdef and not hp for AV pangoro as it lowers special damage pretty significantly just fyi.

252+ SpA Choice Specs Aegislash-Blade Flash Cannon vs. 50 HP / 200 SpD Assault Vest Pangoro: 157-186 (45.7 - 54.2%) -- 50% chance to 2HKO

anyway, Idk what you have against me mouse man but I hope you get your house in order. peace out and remember everyone to look at the math before assuming sets, it's spdef is lowish so adding that instesad of hp helps out A LOT

But pangoro does check them. None of those calcs are OHKO's, meaning Pangoro hits them back with a knock off and OHKO's all but mimikyu, but why would you bother to stay in on a mimikyu? Plus he has shown examples of why to use pangoro over conk. He hasn't just said generic fighting type qualities.

Great reply^.

 

[CreamyGlasses]

But pangoro does check them. None of those calcs are OHKO's, meaning Pangoro hits them back with a knock off and OHKO's all but mimikyu, but why would you bother to stay in on a mimikyu? Plus he has shown examples of why to use pangoro over conk. He hasn't just said generic fighting type qualities.

Pangoro is also slower than every aforementioned pokemon... thus meaning it cannot switch in reliably if the opponent can predict correctly. Sure, it can switch in AFTER a teammate dies, but at this point why not just use a choice scarfer? No real logic here, but alright

Yes, it pivots in on ghost stab well, but any mon exists to force 50/50 is kind of unreliable, especially when it is prone to chip. And when ghost stab runs off of 70/80 BP moves (shadow claw and shadow ball), often making the secondary stab more threatening.

Not to mention all 3 dragapult, aegislash, and gengar have non specs sets that eat up pangoro for breakfast, and are nearly as viable, if not more viable than their specs counterparts. CB sets from aeigslash, will-o-wisp sets from gengar or dragapult (or even chandelure, really), or dd sets from dragapult all fit this criteria, and all can easily bypass the assault vest with powerful nuetral stab or just wisp pangoro and leave.

All that being said, i do agree pangoro should go to B-/B, since thats where all the ladder only garbage is (like crawdaunt).

 

[Hiddenlake]

I'm nominating Sableye from Unranked to C-/C rank.

Sample set

Sableye @ Leftovers
Ability: Prankster
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Bold Nature
- Foul Play
- Recover
- Will-O-Wisp
- Encore

In my opinion, Sableye definitely has a niche in the current OU metagame. Its physical bulk combined with priority on Will-O-Wisp, Encore and Recover allow it to counter most physical wallbreakers and prevent a myriad of threats from setting up. Foul plays allows it to deal significant damages on the mons it's supposed to beat. Knock off is an option over Foul Play, but it makes Sableye even more passive and make it use more Recover PP.

It can come in and beat or force out :
- Physical Zeraora
- Conkeldurr that doesn't click the uncommon Earthquake
- Hawlucha
- Cloyster (making Sableye a more reliable counter than Toxapex since priority prevents being flinched)
- Excadrill without Life Orb
- Kommo-o
- Jirachi
- and many more, I'm sure you get my point.

Calcs

252 Atk Mold Breaker Excadrill Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Sableye: 145-172 (47.6 - 56.5%)
252+ Atk Guts Conkeldurr Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Sableye: 159-188 (52.3 - 61.8%)
252+ Atk Hawlucha Sky Attack vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Sableye: 171-202 (56.2 - 66.4%)
252 Atk Expert Belt Zeraora Play Rough vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Sableye: 185-218 (60.8 - 71.7%) (Sableye can die on max rolls, but Zera doesn't like being burned, so if it stays, gets burned and kill, it'll be way less threatening afterwards)
252 Atk Life Orb Zeraora Plasma Fists vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Sableye: 165-196 (54.2 - 64.4%) (coming in Plasma Fists is fine tho)

The presence of Sabelye in a team also creates interesting mind games. For instance, CM Clefable wouldn't like to get Encore'd into Calm Mind, or Primarina into Substitute.

However, Sableye has disastrous overall stats and will get OHKOed by anything that is not physical. Plus, its physical bulk is not good enough to allow it to switch in strong wallbreakers like Choice Band Terrakion clicking Stone Edge. It also means that against some threats, it's a necessity to scout for the opponent set to make sure Sableye is safe. Plus, it has to remain healthy to do his job, and hates hazards, that can make it unable to switch in mons it's supposed to beat.

Plus, the fact that Dark Types are immuned to Prankster moves makes Sableye a setup folder for some of the tier biggest threats, like Bisharp, Obstagoon and Hydreigon.

Taking into account, I think Sableye can be a relevant niche pick on stall/semi stall teams that like its ability to beat some of the mons that can break this archetype. It shines on teams that need something that can counter specific physical threats. It's also awesome against Hyper Offense.

Since Sableye is the only Prankster user with Encore, Will-O-Wisp and reliable recovery, it has a niche in the OU metagame. It does a better job at stopping setup mons than Thunder Wave Grimmsnarl because of its ability to beat Substitute users, thanks to Encore. While Grimmsnarl can also set screens up, it has no recovery, making Sableye more reliable to stop multiple sweepers within a game.

However, it has very significant flaws and requires team support to work. It only fits in some specific team archetypes, hence the C-/C nomination.

Mid-ladder replays

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1112313901 : Here, Sableye did an awesome job, beating Hawlucha, Durant, Zeraora and Cloyster
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1112150243 : Interesting one against Bulk Up Earthquake Conkeldurr, Earthquake being the only Conk move Sableye fears. Sableye Eventually took Conkel down by locking it into Drain Punch. It also prevented Cosmic Power Mew from doing his thing and killed Cloyster.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1111538183 : Opponent forfeited because Sableye was 6-0ing the team. It was a close call because of the Will-O-Wisp miss against Cloyster, but it didn't matter at the end.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1111156071 : Sableye could beat all mons of this Hyper Offense team bar Grimmsnarl and Mew. Notice how I was afraid of Aegislash, because it could run a sub special set, hence my statement that scouting for sets is a necessity for Sableye to work. Sableye took down Terrakion, Hawlucha and Gyarados.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1112193738 : My Clefable teleports Sableye safely against opposite Clef, locking it into Calm Mind, allowing me to get Conkeldurr in. Sableye also makes the opponent forfeit after beating his Zeraora.

I've used a team featuring Sableye to get around 1600 elo in the ladder and I keep most of my replays, so if you want to see more Sableye search "Hiddenlake" replays !

Thank you for reading this, it's my first nomination ever so I hope I did this right

 

[ausma]

When I was looking at the updated VR, I was incredibly happy to see the changes that were made. I pretty much agree with all of them, except for one that really stood out to me: Weezing-Galar.


C- --> C/C+

Weezing-Galar is one of the weirdest mons that we got in this generation. Neutralizing Gas, a unique Poison/Fairy typing, and a bunch of really strange techs as a whole that really make this thing stand out as a defensive mon and a generally interesting pick for hazard management. Though, given how much Weezing has started to outline its unique traits as of recent, I believe it being C- is greatly underselling the niche that it has as a hazard setter and a defensive Pokemon for Balance squads as merit of three, unique details and one notable observation.

1: Neutralizing Gas

This is easily the biggest reason I believe it is worthy of a rise. Unlike in UU where an Earthquake immunity is a lot more valuable, in OU, Neutralizing Gas's positive traits really shine all the more. In a metagame where Magic Guard Clefable, Guts wallbreakers, and Levitating Pokemon are prevalent, Neutralizing Gas allows for Weezing to hard counter the former two and spread effective status thanks to Neutralizing Gas's ability to actively whittle down Wish Clefable with Toxic and punish potential switchins with its amazing utility moves/STABs. Conkeldurr's best option against Weezing is simply to remove its main form recovery with Knock Off; otherwise, it's a sitting duck as Weezing can either remove hazards, set hazards of its own, deal damage, or provide general support for its team. On top of this, the ability to spread Toxic Spikes with Neutralizing Gas allows for it to actively punish many Pokemon on the switch-in unless they are a Poison, Steel, or Flying type, with the added benefits that come from Neutralizing Gas's utility. This gives Weezing-Galar a giant niche as a hazard setter right out the gate, as it is able to legitimately whittle down and defensively check some powerful Pokemon that normally cannot be whittled down through Status or be easily walled respectively.

2: Unearthly Movepool

This is another really huge contention in Weezing's favor and further outlines its niche. Thanks to it having the ability to not only spread Poison, but remove hazards, clear statuses for its party, threaten Steel types with Fire coverage, threaten burns, take a target down with it using Destiny Bond, clear stat boosts, and incapacitate defensive mons with Taunt, Weezing is given grounds to be extremely unpredictable and malleable to its team's needs. The ability to smack Corviknight and Ferrothorn on the switch-in or Taunt Defoggers is the thing that stands out most to me, and allows for it to not only be a hugely flexible utility Pokemon, but also consistently perform as a Hazard setter without being needlessly passive. Will-O-Wisp is also huge for it, allowing for it to punish Bisharp switchins and cocky Zeraora/Terrakion/Vish users.

3: Unique, relevant typing

Weezing-Galar's typing of Poison/Fairy is fairly promising on paper. While not fantastic, it boasts a Dark resistance, a quad Fighting resistance, a Fairy resistance, and a Dragon immunity. However, what's the unique aspect of this? The biggest point is the fact that it is an active Fairy check. This is huge, namely because of Clefable's prevalence and its ability to actually threaten it with Status. Not only is having a Fairy type in this meta fantastic to handle Dark and Dragon spam, but having a Poison type as well is incredible because of the fact it can actively threaten Fairy types (namely Clefable) with the idea of Poison STAB, and can switch in on Fairy types to greater consistency. It also is useful that Toxic cannot miss its targets on sets that prefer direct Toxic spreading.

4: Synergy with Wishport Clefable

As Finch and many others have already greatly described, Wishport Clefable is an absolute boon for the metagame. Being able to heal up any Pokemon for absolutely free is a godsend for Pokemon that can't reliably recover, and Weezing-Galar is no exception. It already is fantastic at soaking hits and dealing effective punishment, however, Wishport Clefable's utility allows for it to stay healthy while actively spreading hazards, which is unspeakably huge for it as a defensive Pokemon lacking reliable recovery. Additionally, it soft checking Zeraora and countering Conkeldurr is a huge benefit for Clefable. This being said, Clefable is one of the biggest reasons why Weezing-Galar's viability is mostly exclusive to Balance. It greatly appreciates Wish support, but its utility is mostly only of use for Balance squads.

The biggest reason why this isn't a huge contention and more of a side-note, though, is because of the fact that Weezing-Galar stacks on Fairy weaknesses; namely, Steel. However, recent metagame trends greatly compliment Weezing regardless.


Overall, Weezing-Galar has an incredibly unique, effective niche that is relevant to a lot of the current metagame as a Hazard clearer, hazard setter, and defensive Pokemon. Though, I recognize that it is dismantled pretty easily by special breakers, and it is greatly outclassed as a Fairy type, but C- undersells the consistency of its niche. I feel that it isn't something that is nearly the level of niche as other C- mons, and it deserves a spot or two higher.

--

Another Pokemon that's been hitting the scene as of late that I believe deserves a rise as well is Salazzle.


B --> B+/A-

This thing is a super blessed Pokemon. Being able to freely poison Steel types and Poison types, while simultaneously threatening to offensively dismantle most Balance/defensive cores is absolutely huge for it. Not only does it have a godlike offensive typing in Poison/Fire that breaks apart Balance for breakfast, but being able to freely Toxic its defensive checks/Pokemon that otherwise can't be poisoned is so huge in a metagame where the best defensive Pokemon can't even be naturally poisoned to begin with. Its typing is relevant, Corrosion is one of the best and most potent abilities in the game (especially right now), its speed tier is extremely good, HDB give it more staying power, and it pries apart Balance like no tomorrow with its merciless dual STABs. It was already described in greater detail earlier, but this thing definitely deserves a rise, especially since it's been proven to work, and damn does it work.

Other noms I agree with but don't really need to elaborate on

: A --> A+

: A --> A-

 

[DrPumpkinz]

Pangoro is also slower than every aforementioned pokemon... thus meaning it cannot switch in reliably if the opponent can predict correctly. Sure, it can switch in AFTER a teammate dies, but at this point why not just use a choice scarfer? No real logic here, but alright

It seems you're mixing up checks and counters. A check doesn't have to be able to safely switch in. It just has to be able to win the 1v1. And while yeah, something like Dragapult could be used instead to check Ghosts + Kyurem, Pangoro has Knock Off utility, fares much better against Dark-types like Bisharp, doesn't need to risk Fire Blast against Ferrothorn, and can both reliably check opposing Dragapult and smash an incoming (or Teleporting, as seems to be the case in the replay against Glace74) Clef with a single set, unlike Dragapult, who needs a Scarf to avoid a speed tie (unless they're also scarf) and a heavily-invested Steel Wing to deal meaningful damage to Clef (though special sets still have the option to U-turn).

Omari's laundry list of moves and propensity for exaggeration may have made me skeptical at first, but Pangoro does seem to have some legitimate merit. It's almost like a combination of Bisharp, Obstagoon, and Conkeldurr.

 

[Goodbye & Thanks]

I'm nominating Sableye from Unranked for C-/C rank.
View attachment 245428

Sample set

Sableye @ Leftovers
Ability: Prankster
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Bold Nature
- Foul Play
- Recover
- Will-O-Wisp
- Encore

In my opinion, Sableye definitely has a niche in the current OU metagame. Its physical bulk combined with priority on Will-O-Wisp, Encore and Recover allow it to counter most physical wallbreakers and prevent a myriad of threats from setting up. Foul plays allows it to deal significant damages on the mons it's supposed to beat. Knock off is an option over Foul Play, but it makes Sableye even more passive and make it use more Recover PP.

It can come in and beat or force out :
- Physical Zeraora
- Conkeldurr that doesn't click the uncommon Earthquake
- Hawlucha
- Cloyster (making Sableye a more reliable counter than Toxapex since priority prevents being flinched)
- Excadrill without Life Orb
- Kommo-o
- Jirachi
- and many more, I'm sure you get my point.

Calcs

252 Atk Mold Breaker Excadrill Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Sableye: 145-172 (47.6 - 56.5%)
252+ Atk Guts Conkeldurr Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Sableye: 159-188 (52.3 - 61.8%)
252+ Atk Hawlucha Sky Attack vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Sableye: 171-202 (56.2 - 66.4%)
252 Atk Expert Belt Zeraora Play Rough vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Sableye: 185-218 (60.8 - 71.7%) (Sableye can die on max rolls, but Zera doesn't like being burned, so if it stays, gets burned and kill, it'll be way less threatening afterwards)
252 Atk Life Orb Zeraora Plasma Fists vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Sableye: 165-196 (54.2 - 64.4%) (coming in Plasma Fists is fine tho)

The presence of Sabelye in a team also creates interesting mind games. For instance, CM Clefable wouldn't like to get Encore'd into Calm Mind, or Primarina into Substitute.

However, Sableye has disastrous overall stats and will get OHKOed by anything that is not physical. Plus, its physical bulk is not good enough to allow it to switch in strong wallbreakers like Choice Band Terrakion clicking Stone Edge. It also means that against some threats, it's a necessity to scout for the opponent set to make sure Sableye is safe. Plus, it has to remain healthy to do his job, and hates hazards, that can make it unable to switch in mons it's supposed to beat.

Plus, the fact that Dark Types are immuned to Prankster moves makes Sableye a setup folder for some of the tier biggest threats, like Bisharp, Obstagoon and Hydreigon.

Taking into account, I think Sableye can be a relevant niche pick on stall/semi stall teams that like its ability to beat some of the mons that can break this archetype. It shines on teams that need something that can counter specific physical threats. It's also awesome against Hyper Offense.

Since Sableye is the only Prankster user with Encore, Will-O-Wisp and reliable recovery, it has a niche in the OU metagame. It does a better job at stopping setup mons than Thunder Wave Grimmsnarl because of its ability to beat Substitute users, thanks to Encore. While Grimmsnarl can also set screens up, it has no recovery, making Sableye more reliable to stop multiple sweepers within a game.

However, it has very significant flaws and requires team support to work. It only fits in some specific teams archetypes, hence the C-/C nomination.

Mid-ladder replays

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1112313901 : Here, Sableye did an awesome job, beating Hawlucha, Durant, Zeraora and Cloyster
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1112150243 : Interesting one against Bulk Up Earthquake Conkeldurr, Earthquake being the only Conk move Sableye fears. Sableye Eventually took Conkel down by locking it into Drain Punch. It also prevented Cosmic Power Mew from doing his thing and killed Cloyster.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1111538183 : Opponent forfeited because Sableye was 6-0ing the team. It was a close call because of the Will-O-Wisp miss against Cloyster, but it didn't matter at the end.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1111156071 : Sableye could beat all mons of this Hyper Offense team bar Grimmsnarl and Mew. Notice how I was afraid of Aegislash, because it could run a sub special set, hence my statement that scouting for sets is a necessity for Sableye to work. Sableye took down Terrakion, Hawlucha and Gyarados.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1112193738 : My Clefable teleports Sableye safely against opposite Clef, locking it into Calm Mind, allowing me to get Conkeldurr in. Sableye also makes the opponent forfeit after beating his Zeraora.

I've used a team featuring Sableye to get around 1600 elo in the ladder and I keep most of my replays, so if you want to see more Sableye search "Hiddenlake" replays !

Thank you for reading this, it's my first nomination ever so I hope I did this right

I wanted to say that I enjoyed your Sableye post a lot! I think that you explained Sableye's niche well, while pointing out its inherent flaws, and I think that you picked replays that demonstrated the value that Sableye can offer in certain matchups very well. So all around, nice job!

I also just want to add that ABR successfully used Sableye on a stall team during a Smogon Tour last month. It's a long replay and not the most thrilling, but Sableye does eventually shut down Zeraora to secure the win. I thought I'd share that replay to show the type of stall team that Sableye can function on.

 

[Hiddenlake]

I wanted to say that I enjoyed your Sableye post a lot! I think that you explained Sableye's niche well, while pointing out its inherent flaws, and I think that you picked replays that demonstrated the value that Sableye can offer in certain matchups very well. So all around, nice job!

I also just want to add that ABR successfully used Sableye on a stall team during a Smogon Tour last month. It's a long replay and not the most thrilling, but Sableye does eventually shut down Zeraora to secure the win. I thought I'd share that replay to show the type of stall team that Sableye can function on.

First, thank you for the kind words !

Then, this replay is very interesting, because it showcases the effectiveness of Sableye as well as its weaknesses. Remember how I said that scouting for the opponent set is a necessity before switching Sableye in brainlessly ?

On turn 73, Zeraora switches in for the first time, and ABR sends Gastrodon as an answer. However, the move could be risky :
252 SpA Life Orb Zeraora Grass Knot (60 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Gastrodon: 234-281 (54.9 - 65.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery. If Zeraora had a CM set, Gastrodon would be in danger.

But then, Zeraora reveals a Bulk Up set with Leftovers, meaning that Sableye is absolutely safe. Sending Gastrodon was the best play there, because if Zeraora had a CM set, Gastrodon would have been hurt on the switch, but ABR would have been able to pivot into the correct answer. However, Gastrodon forces Zeraora out, and from now on, ABR knows that Zera is not a threat to the team, thanks to Sableye (and Gastrodon).

But ABR still doesn't send Sableye to beat Zeraora until end game, because Sableye guarantees Weavile a safe switch in, and Weavile is a threat to the team if it has Swords Dance and Toxapex is chipped. Since Gastrodon hard counters Zera, there's no reason to risk using Sableye.

However, on turn 124, Pohjis reveals a Choice Band set on Weavile. Since Toxapex can beat CB Weavile all day, ABR knows that Sableye won't be a setup folder for Weavile, and can therefore be used safely. Notice how Sableye was sent as a Zera answer once Weavile revealed the Choice Band set.

To put it in a nutshell : Sableye counters relevant threats, and can even act as a wincon, but knowing the opponent set is a necessity to make sure it doesn't unexpectedly die. In ABR's team, Sableye is not meant to be primarily used as a Zera counter, the Snorlax/Gastrodon/Clef core is great at stopping it. I think Sableye is there to prevent it from setting up, while also beating Conk, Cloyster, and other mons that dismantle common defensive cores, making Sableye a relevant niche pick in the team.

 

[Thunder Pwoell]

To be quite honest, the attitudes I've gotten in messages or seen on here about Pangoro are quite in line with the anti-intellectual groupthink that are the issues with this thread and community. Pangoro is a mon that is ambiguous and versatile, there are a lot of sets and abilities you can make it but since it doesn't fit your one-dimensional handhold-y definitions of what things should be you say it's bad because YOU were being lazy or lacked the time put in to make something your own. this isn't unique or even best suited for Pangoro, this has been an issue with this community and thread for years and it's quite saddening.

let's take Celebi for example, something that is literally ambiguous as it is a base 100 and has a wide move pool. you people barely ranked it last gen even when I had massive success with quite a few sets that some of the lower-level misguides called bad, and here we are again putting what I’m assuming 1 set in c tier. It's quite insane considering the massive range of sets it can have and what it can do. This is the case for Mew as well, but with Mew, it's even worse. The fact that you all have in C+ is an absolute failure of the community and leadership. Mew is the most versatile mon in the entire fucking game with an amazing variety of viable combinations and bulk to use. How the absolute fuck is it in C? This is what I've been saying for years; when something is ambiguous and customizable you people just shut off your brains and are like I wanna be told what sets to use. No. Think for yourselves and customize them for your teams. The fact that I ran an incredible move set that even skeptics like Mob Barley and Srn were like holy shit (it was the nasty plot encore mew on my sun team) should show you that shit is questionable in this eyes of this VR; not alone, there have been a LOT of sets that have worked, np, dragon dance, AV, but instead of readjusting your viewpoints on the pokemon, you decide to just call things gimmicks because they don't fit YOUR small model of how the world works. Stop the cognitive dissonance Jesus Christ and let's stop leaning extremely heavily towards one set for each mon, this game can be explored a lot more than you are making it seem; please. We can do a lot better and explore a lot more and accept that things actually do work pretty nicely even if it requires thought. You do not need a mon to scream a certain set in order for your view to view it as good or viable. I do not know how the system should work for this proposal but I know what's not working and that's the current thought process. Have a great day.

 

[DrPumpkinz]

To be quite honest, the attitudes I've gotten in messages or seen on here about Pangoro are quite in line with the anti-intellectual groupthink that are the issues with this thread and community. Pangoro is a mon that is ambiguous and versatile, there are a lot of sets and abilities you can make it but since it doesn't fit your one-dimensional handhold-y definitions of what things should be you say it's bad because YOU were being lazy or lacked the time put in to make something your own. this isn't unique or even best suited for Pangoro, this has been an issue with this community and thread for years and it's quite saddening.

let's take Celebi for example, something that is literally ambiguous as it is a base 100 and has a wide move pool. you people barely ranked it last gen even when I had massive success with quite a few sets that some of the lower-level misguides called bad, and here we are again putting what I’m assuming 1 set in c tier. It's quite insane considering the massive range of sets it can have and what it can do. This is the case for Mew as well, but with Mew, it's even worse. The fact that you all have in C+ is an absolute failure of the community and leadership. Mew is the most versatile mon in the entire fucking game with an amazing variety of viable combinations and bulk to use. How the absolute fuck is it in C? This is what I've been saying for years; when something is ambiguous and customizable you people just shut off your brains and are like I wanna be told what sets to use. No. Think for yourselves and customize them for your teams. The fact that I ran an incredible move set that even skeptics like Mob Barley and Srn were like holy shit (it was the nasty plot encore mew on my sun team) should show you that shit is questionable in this eyes of this VR; not alone, there have been a LOT of sets that have worked, np, dragon dance, AV, but instead of readjusting your viewpoints on the pokemon, you decide to just call things gimmicks because they don't fit YOUR small model of how the world works. Stop the cognitive dissonance Jesus Christ and let's stop leaning extremely heavily towards one set for each mon, this game can be explored a lot more than you are making it seem; please. We can do a lot better and explore a lot more and accept that things actually do work pretty nicely even if it requires thought. You do not need a mon to scream a certain set in order for your view to view it as good or viable. I do not know how the system should work for this proposal but I know what's not working and that's the current thought process. Have a great day.

The dissonance seems to stem from pure versatility not being a major factor. Instead, the most important factor seems to be the percieved effectiveness of individual sets. Mew may have a million sets, but if the community collectively sees those sets and thinks "why wouldn't you just use <insert highly used mon that does that specific set better than Mew>" then Mew isn't going to be ranked very high. Versatility isn't completely ignored, but Pokemon like Landorus and Magearna tend to also be seen as excelling in their many sets.

This isn't to say that pure versatility shouldn't be valued more, or that Mew's many sets are actually inferior to the things they get compared to. I'm inclined to disagree with the former, and I have no idea on the latter. These are just my observations of the community's values as a whole.