This just isn't true at all. Once it nuzzles Latias on the LO+3A set, it wins, even after MFire. -1 252+ SpA Hatterene Draining Kiss vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Latias: 102-120 (33.8 - 39.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO . Latias cannot recover quickly enough while still trying to damage it. There is just absolutely no way a Hatterne will lose this battle, and it is not a "loose" check, it is a pretty air-tight solid check to the LO+3A set.
I think you misread? I literally said - and you quoted it - that Hatterene
without Nuzzle doesn't check Latias, of course the Nuzzle sets do but no competent player is going to let you get that Nuzzle off regardless.
This is also a little misleading. It DOES lose significant threat level running Flame Orb or Grassy Seed, as those sets are much more manageable through ordinary teams. Flame Orb set is just not good, for reasons I stated earlier. Things like Chansey and Slowking can still come in on it and pivot out to an offensive check quite easily, so it really only works well against stally teams. I think you are downplaying this a little too much, which is what my main issue has been when reading many of the pro-ban arguments here. The counterplay is being so significantly downplayed very unfairly. It exists and it is very legitimate.
In the most respectful way possible you didn't give any reasons, you quoted an analysis that already downplays how useful the set is. Pivot Chansey is virtually unseen and Slowking teleporting into offensive checks is still fine with Krookodile but like I said, it doesn't work with something like Zeraora for this reason:
252 Atk Zeraora Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Latias: 208-246 (57.1 - 67.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
followed by a Psycho Shift burn meaning your offensive check is now setup fodder. Don't understand why Twilight's analysis said this is very poor against offense teams because that's simply not true, it's just poor against Scarf Krook teams.
And if we go down the list of Latias's traditional offensive checks, here's how they match up against it:
252+ Atk Life Orb Mamoswine Ice Shard vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Latias: 205-244 (56.3 - 67%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
followed by a burn
...I'm already struggling to find more, just so you know. Look through the VR yourself. Nothing even offensively checks it outside of these three and maybe Bisharp? So I'm not sure what I'm downplaying. There seriously is an extremely limited amount of them. You're telling me this counterplay exists but you're not telling me what it is.
I agree with you!!! (not the first sentence, but the ones after that). My problem is not that people are using the versatility to argue for a pro-ban. My problem is that they are doing that in combination with DISMISSING the versatility of the sets its checks can run. I think that is very unfair and one-sided to say "Well Latias can check Chansey with Flame Orb!!!" while then also saying "Boooo Max Sp.Def Slowking is so niche!!! (even though it also checks things like Nidoqueen)". If you're going to make the argument that Latias is versatile, go right ahead, but don't dismiss the versatility of its checks when they are brought up so easily.
I really am starting to feel like you didn't read or understand my post. You're missing the point entirely that these Pokemon lose so much more than Latias loses by running these sets. If you want proof of that, here you go:
252+ Atk Life Orb Mamoswine Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Slowking: 252-299 (63.9 - 75.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Mamoswine Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Slowking: 361-426 (91.6 - 108.1%) -- 50% chance to OHKO
252 Atk Choice Band Terrakion Megahorn vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Slowking: 324-382 (82.2 - 96.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Choice Band Terrakion Megahorn vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Slowking: 470-554 (119.2 - 140.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
[also this: 252 Atk Choice Band Terrakion Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Slowking: 294-346 (74.6 - 87.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO]
Close Combat has a chance to 2HKO as well. and will consistently do so after minor chip damage.
252 Atk Choice Band Victini V-create vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Slowking: 153-180 (38.8 - 45.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 Atk Choice Band Victini V-create vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Slowking: 220-260 (55.8 - 65.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Krookodile Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Slowking: 246-290 (62.4 - 73.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
(this is important because it avoids a 2HKO after losing its item)
252 Atk Krookodile Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Slowking: 356-420 (90.3 - 106.5%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO
Slowking literally cannot afford to drop its defense EVs because it will be a terrible Pokemon against a lot of what it's supposed to check without it. Latias, on the other hand, can still break just fine without its Life Orb and is often even better off without it.
This is the main problem that I think we are seeing here and I think it needs to be severely cut back, and I'm glad you said this. I cannot believe how easily Latias's checks keep getting dismissed like this, and for what? Latias is powerful, we get that, the pro ban argument doesn't neeed fostering by trying to de-legitimize checks. Slowking CAN do something back - it can use Thunder Wave. Or Pivot out to one of Latias's many offensive checks that you already have on your team without needing to plan for it. AV Hatterenee, again, is a great check to the 3A LO set, and even to CM sets it can paralyze with Nuzzle and potentially win on paralysis, or switch to something else to offensively pressure it (since, again, there are lots of things that offensively pressure Latias, especially once its paralyzed). Celesteela forces the Latias player to initiate standard Celeesteela counterplay which is switching out Latias for a grass in hopes you don't Flamethrower, and switching again. It can't stay in against Celesteela because it does too little damage to it (35 with L Orb MFire), and takes too much from Heavy Slam and won't win the Leech Seed game. You will not force it out only "once", because by the time you switch in, take a MFire, and then Latias switches out again, and you protect, you are already back up to 80% or so HP. Jirachi I agree is a shaky check, not the best, but it can work. And Chansey I think everyone agrees is the most reliable answer. The recovery cycles are only bad if you switch into Psyshock, and even then you will still recover more than you will get damaged so it's usually all fine and Chansey is rarely threatened by this.
Okay, so to break this down one by one:
"Slowking CAN do something back - it can use Thunder Wave."
Which means dropping Teleport. Which means you can't pivot into Pokemon that are actually capable of threatening it. Not to mention that TWave Slowking is ridiculously hard to fit as is because most teams can't afford to drop Teleport viably, and it's been established plenty by now that dropping Slack Off is a meme.
"Or Pivot out to one of Latias's many offensive checks that you already have on your team without needing to plan for it."
There are four that outspeed it reliably or have priority to offset their inability to outspeed it. One of them (Bisharp) needs to win a mindgame, two of them (Zeraora, Mamoswine) can't OHKO it, and the last one (Scarf Krook) is very good against Latias but it's really, really easy to take advantage of because it's walled by literally half the tier. Tangrowth, Amoonguss, Tapu Bulu, Skarmory, Salamence, GMolt, these guys are on every single team and they all stonewall Krook into oblivion and make it dead weight more often than not that has ZERO purpose other than forcing Latias to switch.
"AV Hatterenee, again, is a great check to the 3A LO set, and even to CM sets it can paralyze with Nuzzle and potentially win on paralysis, or switch to something else to offensively pressure it (since, again, there are lots of things that offensively pressure Latias, especially once its paralyzed)."
Yes, both myself and IP agreed with you that AV Hat is a really good check. We were saying that the standard Hatterene - the CM set - loses to it. The problem is that AV Hatterene is ass against most of the rest of the tier, is incredibly susceptible to chip damage regardless and also that once it's revealed that it's AV (which happens as soon as it takes a Mystical Fire) the Latias user won't let it take a Nuzzle, and it's not like switching into a -1 Hatterene is the hardest thing in the world anyway.
"Celesteela forces the Latias player to initiate standard Celeesteela counterplay which is switching out Latias for a grass in hopes you don't Flamethrower, and switching again. It can't stay in against Celesteela because it does too little damage to it (35 with L Orb MFire), and takes too much from Heavy Slam and won't win the Leech Seed game. You will not force it out only "once", because by the time you switch in, take a MFire, and then Latias switches out again, and you protect, you are already back up to 80% or so HP."
You've outlined a lot here so let's go through this:
Standard Celesteela counterplay is not exclusively limited to switching in a Grass, and it's not like Amoonguss/AV Tang take much from Flamethrower anyway. It also involves switching into something like Slowking or Mew and using it as a pivot to get in one of the many, many Pokemon that significantly threaten Celesteela for free, or just brute forcing your way through it either with Latias or by switching into something like Victini, Rotom-H, or Volcanion - remember that the Celesteela *has* to click Heavy Slam to actually do much to the Latias, and if it clicks Mystical Fire as you attempt to Flamethrower the incoming Tangrowth, you have taken 70% for nothing. And this is assuming they don't have a Tentacruel.
Not covering Jirachi or Chansey, we seem to agree on those.
Again, this is a bit misleading. When you say "standard counterplay", I know that you are referring to "standard Latias counterplay", which I agree with. But what it fails to acknowledge is that there is sufficiently MORE counterplay available to this type of set, that you will usually have that available on your team. For example, Chansey, while unable to toxic it, can easily teleport out once it sees that's the set and go to someting offensive. Slowking as well, once it sees the Flame Orb, can pivot out. Jirachi can also U-Turn out. Who is going to realistically just stay in and do nothing against Latias instead of pivoting out? Nobody. And since Latias takes chip burn damage, things like Zeraora can actually KO it with Knock Off after SR + Burn Chip (I know you said Zeraora doesn't come close to OHKOing, but Knock will do 76-90). Once Hatt switches in and sees the Flame Orb, that is indeed unfortunate for it, but that's about the only one. So to say that your Latias counterplay is a "laughing stock" is incredibly unfair and only realistically applies to one Pokemon (Hatterene) while making it generally easier for most standard teams to deal with Latias.
Teleport Chansey + offensive check is something that's very rarely seen atm because Chansey is not a Pokemon that easily finds itself on offensive teams - it *can* work but it's rare. Balance and stall teams that use Chansey typically rely on Toxic Chansey as their Latias counterplay, this is just how it is. Slowking does not struggle with this issue quite as much because it fits on offense much more easily, so I agree that Slowking + Krookodile is still valid counterplay. Jirachi takes a burn and is rendered useless. Nobody is going to stay in and do nothing, but with the bulk this set often runs, you often don't have a choice but to let it set up because
not every team is going to have the one consistent Latias killer in Scarf Krookodile. I showed the Zeraora calc earlier but I assume you calced 0 HP, which is not what the Flame Orb set runs:
252 Atk Zeraora Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Latias: 208-246 (57.1 - 67.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
This is assuming the Zeraora is Jolly but it also assumes the Latias doesn't have any Defense EVs, which it can quite easily run - you really only miss out on Terrakion by going down to 330, and the 80 or so Defense EVs make this calc even more pathetic.
I don't think that this set is particularly "terrifying", but your points here aren't unfair like some of the previous points. So I will just respectfully disagree with it being a terrifying set, but agree with the concept that it is very good. I still think LO 3A set is much better.
oki
I find the tier healthy and enjoyable already - I've had a lot of fun in UU the past few months. I didn't have much fun pre-DLC2 when every team was Zarude/Sylveon/Glowbro. People complain right now about ladder cheese, but I find it refreshing that there are so many possibilities that can work on teams right now. I'm not sure this is going to be the right direction at all to ban Latias. I have seen more variety in UU teams the past month than I've seen in the previous 6 months combined. That is something that should be celebrated and preserved. I think banning Latias is the wrong move.
I think most people agree that that metagame was very unenjoyable and somewhat poorly handled on our (the council's) end, we got complacent because DLC was constantly looming right around the corner and for that I apologise. And of course, you're entirely free to enjoy the tier rn - if you do then that's great!! That said, I think it's pretty hard to ignore how much people are complaining right now. There are so many complaints about the incredibly low quality of the ladder (cheese every other game, and who could blame them when cheesing is so easy and braindead due to teambuilding restrictions when using anything else?), the sheer amount of offensive threats that can't be prepped for adequately etc. and it's a sign to me, as both a council member and community figure, that something needs to change in order for the tier to grow and remain healthy. You're entirely within your right to think that the tier is enjoyable and that banning Latias is the wrong move, but I'm not sure you're looking at it for the right reasons.
Also I'm not gonna keep flooding this thread with a long ass back and forth, but I do want to continue this discussion with you (if you want to, of course). Ping me in the uu cord if you're up for it and I'll gladly try to explain myself better if needs be, but I'm not gonna respond here again even though I think this is a valuable argument to be having.