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This one is probably a bit more controversial, since Tsareena's movepool is actually quite interesting. However, this thing has numerous issues that I personally couldn't just ignore. First, the Steenee period is awful and you want to use this thing so it levels up faster. While you could switch train, this is rather annoying and also wears your team off a lot faster. Secondly, Tsareena has very few naturally good matchups, which are Olivia and Hapu, for most parts, with occassional kills with coverage here and there. Thirdly, the movepool, despite being varied, simply isn't too useful for when you get it. I'd honestly have put this in E if it wasn't for Trop Kick being nice utility, but all in all, Steenee was mediocre for me. I *could* push it to C with strong support, but for now, I'd need good arguments to raise this beyond D.
I disagree with this assessment. Tsareena has more good matchups than Olivia/Hapu. Maybe not natural as in "I win itemless," but they are still there:
Guzma is a fight that it can solo despite the natural type disadvantage. This is because Queenly Majesty (gotten from Oblivious Steenee) reduces Golisopod's options (that can hit you) to just Razor Shell, whose defence drops can be nullified with a Guard Special, X Defend, or even a Trop Kick. It needs an X Speed and a couple of X Attacks at the very least, but Golisopod being exploitable makes it doable in a reasonable timeframe (albeit item-assisted). The attacking move of choice is Acrobatics, which you can't get before Guzma 1, but you do get before Guzma 2. For Guzma 1 you could just Fling on Masquerain (More on Fling in a bit).
High Jump Kick comes in time for Trial Captains, which gives Tsareena a really good option for Ilima, Sophocles [Ultra Sun], and Nanu [Ultra Moon]. It is also a useful option against Molayne and Olivia. Furthermore, Acrobatics is good for Mallow [Ultra Sun], and Lani [Ultra Moon] is an okay matchup with STAB and Acrobatics for Araquanid.
Fling + one of the free fossils seems like a meme at first glance (Fling is obtained at Hau'oli Cemetery at night after getting the Ride Pager), but it should be noted that items flung in a trainer battle return to the Pokémon after the fight is done. This ends up having a few useful applications, like against Faba and Acerola, or even Hau's Raichu. Steenee can also learn Fling, which gives it something to hit things with at the very least, even though it can only do it once a fight.
And then of course, there are some of the (mandatory) field trainers. Veteran Heather's Talonflame sucks, but Wailord is a good matchup, and Glaceon falls to High Jump Kick if you get it before then. Once you get past Eric's Noctowl, Gengar and Slowking fall to Fling and STAB, Fling deals with Yuki's Marowak, neither of Harry's Pokémon enjoy a Fling, Ace Trainer Jada doesn't like High Jump Kick into Fling.
All this alone flies in the face of the remark that the varied movepool not being too useful. The biggest issue with it really is its speed being pretty disappointing, but it's not the end of the world in that regard. Mind, some of this is based on when I played casually three years ago, but even then I think you are selling Steenee a little bit short and I do encourage you to experiment a little more with it. It's a C-Rank at the bare minimum and probably even B-Rank in my eyes. I might need to take another look at it some day in the future, but it was extremely good for me casually and I think D is too low.
1) Even if Tsareena can solo Guzma thanks to X Items, I wouldn't necessarily weight that in favor of Tsareena. It's still heavy item usage (judging by the "a couple of X Attacks") and this would only be valuable if you are doing some kind of a challenge run, but in a more casual environment, most people would likely use something else here
2) I don't really consider Trial Captains in my rankings. Whenever this is right or wrong, I don't know, but I think the game is long enough already and I don't really have the energy to test all of them (and would rather concentrate my efforts towards the more relevant bosses), especially since who you fight to an extent depends on your version too.
3) Never really considered Fling on this (or anything), so maybe it could've made some of my matchups better. It *might* be somewhat niche, but a mention in a write-up could probably solve the issue
As I said in my summary of it, I wouldn't necessarily oppose pushing it to C-tier, but I can say with confidence that I cannot see B-tier for it, because, per experience, Tsareena has too many issues for me to see B-tier. However, I'd like someone else to test it first before I push it to C, just to see if I am truly underselling its viability (which isn't impossible. After all, I can make errors too).
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short summary of my run, got past Kommo-o, I should be done with this one as well soon:
Charizard - still great, swept Nanu (albeit I had to pray his Persian didn't go for Fake Out after Zard took on Sableye. I will explain more when I finish run) and KOed Kommo-o with Counter. Can see A-tier for this one
Mr. Mime - only improvement here is that it beats Kommo-o with Psych Up and Z-Psychic, but nothing else that impressed me. D-tier
Lilligant - swept Nanu, but nothing else. It can deal heavy damage to Kommo-o with +1 Z-Dream Eater, but doesn't win. D-tier at best at this point
Poliwrath - hasn't really done anything interesting. It's not bad, per se, but I wouldn't call it good either. Unfortunately, it struggles to sweep Nanu, as it can still be outsped by Persian even at +1 and it needs at least 2-3 Work Ups to OHKO Sableye. D or C, depending on how the end-game goes for it.
Probopass - outside of the last two fights against Guzma, Probopass hasn't been too useful either. It will likely contribute against Ultra Necrozma thanks to high bulk and good typing for the fight and end-game could be ok for it, but right now, its contributions amount to E-tier, as Nosepass also levels up slowly and it already struggles to do much.
Torterra - comes late and hasn't done anything impressive. E-tier for now, maybe it could see D-tier at the League, post-UN matchups look favorable (Z-Heavy Slam should help against Ribombee)
Actually, my Leafeon notably 1v1ed Hau’s Malie Raichu with a Z-move. You tank the Psychic which does over half then kill back with Bloom Doom off Razor Leaf, though Raichu outspeeds.
I’d imagine X-Scissor with a Z-move would do the trick at the League, too.
hi, thanks for your nomination! I only want to note that neither Lusamine nor most Hau fights (more specifically the Malie one) are considered for tiering purposes, as you do not have to win them to proceed through the story. I want first to let DrumstickGaming finish his run before I give any verdict on Leafeon's placement. However, I will share that if he nominates it to B, I am not only going to put it to B, but I will probably not even give it an asterisk (due to another person nomming it to B). If he doesn't, though, I will likely request another test to confirm his claims.
Anyways, I have finished my run. I will get a slate tomorrow, so if anyone wants nominations addressed soon, you'd better post now (otherwise, you gotta wait till next slate). Here are my summaries:
Mime Jr. -> D, maybe C, leaning towards D more.
Good for Hala and Kommo-o, can potentially beat Lurantis if AI derps, can also cheese Ribombee with Psych Up. Useful for Hapu and Kahili and can sweep Hau with 3 CMs and a healing item. The Hau sweep happens with 3 CMs, then a Full Restore, then Substitute, then you KO with DGleam then spam Psychic (use a Z-Move for starter due to it running HP EVs). With that said, Mime Jr. *could* be C, but with Medium Fast experience group being more or less Slow, I'd rather just place it in D. I may have someone else run with it, though, just to make sure.
Charmander -> A
This is a pretty high nomination, so I will just go in detail about every matchup:
Hala - outspeeds and 2HKOs everything with Dragon Rage. Makuhita is annoying with Sand-Attack and Crabrawler can put it in red with Z-PuP. However, if Machop goes for Focus Energy, you comfortably take out it and Crabrawler.
Araquanid - outspeeds and 2HKOs with Dragon Rage. Put in red by Bubble, so Charmeleon wins
Marowak - outspeeds and 2HKOs with Dragon Rage. Outspeeding here is trickier due to the fact that I barely outsped it (53 vs 50 speed).
Lurantis - +1 Z-Fire Punch OHKOs Lurantis with no issues
Olivia - nope
Togedemaru - Charizard at this point. Z-Fire Pledge, then Fire Pledge. Z-Fire Pledge either OHKOs Togedemaru or puts it in range for another Fire Pledge, with Zard being faster.
Guzma - for first fight, use Z-Fire Pledge then spam Fire Pledge. For the rest, spam Specs special Fire STAB.
Mimikyu - somewhat unorthodox, but you can Flame Charge to break Disguise, then Z-Iron Tail, then Fire Pledge to KO Mimikyu. Zard manages to live two Shadow Claws from Mimikyu and one Curse from Banette. If you are frailer, you can just have a teammate break the Disguise for you.
Nanu - Flame Charge on Sableye then KO with Fire Pledge thanks to Blaze being triggered by Power Gem. Persian is outsped at +1 and OHKOed by Z-Fire Pledge with Blaze, though it will KO if it goes for Fake Out. Krokorok then also dies to Fire Pledge.
Kommo-o - Counter KOs Kommo-o after taking one Thunder Punch
Ribombee - Work Up, then Z-Fly to OHKO, no issues
Hapu - you could set up Sunny Day and spam Solar Beam, which should hit most of her things hard. Only Flygon poses an issue to this strategy.
Molayne - OHKO Klefki with Flamethrower, then switch out (Magnezone) and heal off the paralysis. Bring it back against literally anything (preferably Bisharp or Dugtrio) and use Z-Sunny Day then spam Flamethrower.
Acerola - Work Up, then 2HKO Banette with Flame Charge while it puts you in Blaze range. Then OHKO Drifblim with Z-Flamethrower and OHKO the rest with a mere Flamethrower.
Kahili - setting up on Braviary is hard (at least consistently, it is possible, but ehh), but if you do it against Hawlucha or Mandibuzz (Work Up and Flame Charge, preferably with Blaze too, but not too needed), you can set up enough to sweep the rest of her team.
Hau - lives a TBolt, 2HKOs Raichu with Flame Charge. Kills Crabominable too. How the fightdepends on your starter, with Incineroar, Vapo comes out next and you could try hitting with Z-Solar Beam. Sweep isn't happening, though.
As you can see, Charmander is pretty good for many fights, a lot of them being key ones, too. I think it deserves A-tier because it's great and also levels up fast, on top of that.
Poliwag -> C, but open to dropping to D
I felt this wasn't super impressive, but maybe I didn't give it enough attention. It can weaken Marowak and sweep Olivia. Then it has a good showing against Hapu, Olivia #2, and Molayne. I am going with C for now, because of Medium Slow exp. group, but I am willing to drop this to D, if needed.
Petilil -> D
Can sweep some fights with QD strategies, but Petilil is pretty useless outside of spreading sleep and Leech Seed. Furthermore, you need to box it at level 28 so you can get QD for it. Considering that it's in the Medium Fast group, it will take some time to catch up with your team. Even with QD, you still fail miserably against some bosses, like Guzma and Mimikyu, so this is not higher than D.
Nosepass -> D
Good for the last two fights against Guzma, Ribombee, Kahili, and Olivia #2 and Molayne to an extent. The biggest contributor here is UN, where it doesn't die instantly so it can Toxic stall it. I am placing it in D-tier due to borderline late-game arrival + being in the Slow exp. group rather than C, though.
Grotle -> D, albeit barely
Torterra had a good showing against Hapu, Olivia, and Molayne, but nothing else. This is pretty close to E, but given I didn't really use Leech Seed, that could maybe seal D as its final ranking, along with a great matchup against Hau's Raichu.
next team for me: Yungoos / Meowth / traded Noibat / Surskit / Salandit / Natu. Meowth will be caught slightly later so I can catch it with Luxury Ball and evolve it into a Persian fast.
As I promised, I am gonna put up a new slate with new nominations. Most of them are from my tests, though Krokorok and Prinplup were included in it as well.
Prinplup -> B (will be put with two asterisks and likely dropped to C if there's support behind it)
Krokorok -> E (based on my analysis and a short comment from another user from this thred)
Smoochum -> D
Eevee (Sylveon) -> C
Feebas (Trade) -> C
Barboach -> B
Archen -> D
Minior -> C
Bonsly -> D
Onix (Trade) -> E
Eevee (Espeon) -> D
Marshtomp -> B (originally nominated it to C, but given I didn't use Work Up or Water Pledge a lot due to an error on my part, I will push it to B for now)
Chinchou -> D
Oranguru -> D
Charmander -> A
Mime Jr. -> D
Petilil -> D
Nosepass -> D
Poliwag (Poliwrath) -> C
Grotle -> D
Leafeon is excluded again till Drumstick finishes his run. Steenee requires another test before moving anywhere else. Anything else that's been mentioned here is currently being tested, thus they are not being placed anywhere.
results are coming tomorrow. Any objections to a nomination in the slate are better off being voiced now, as it will be easier for me if they come before I place the Pokemon anywhere, although it won't be impossible to change a Pokemon's tier in the future. Just that now would be better.
===
just beat Olivia in my current run:
Gumshoos
It's been worse than the Totem version so far, but performance-wise, they get almost similar results. Totem Gumshoos can OHKO Lurantis and Araquanid unboosted, while Gumshoos needs a Work Up boost to do so. However, the normal one, with Strong Jaw, can OHKO Marowak with +2 Bite, although you need the AI to go Detect, then Torment on Salazzle to do this. Leaning towards C-tier for now, given Medium Fast is a bad exp. group
Persian
I managed to evolve mine before Totem Araquanid. Even then, Persian hasn't won any single fight yet, though it can contribute with +2 Bite almost everywhere, including Marowak and Olivia. D-tier at best
Noibat
Hasn't won any single matchup. Traded exp. is nice, but it means nothing if you can't use it for anything good. D-tier at best, maybe E.
Masquerain
OHKOed Lurantis with Z-Air Cutter and Intimidate is nice for debuffing Marowak and Olivia's Lycanroc. Looks like C-tier material. Can't say much more about it, though note that Surskit can't OHKO Marowak, so you can just evolve safely instead of worrying about having Surskit for Marowak.
Salandit
It is important first to mention that there's a trick to getting a female Salandit fast. What you want to do is get a male Eevee (the Paniola Egg one is always male, so you can hatch that, takes less than 4 minutes per experience, though the wild ones do come with a Fairy move already), evolve it into Sylveon and use Cute Charm (works even if fainted) to increase the chances of a female Salandit appearing to 66.7%. You can even just do it after getting Poke Pelago to get Rainbow Beans, as Salandit isn't winning against Marowak (though it can contribute with Dragon Rage). This way, you can get a female Salandit relatively fast, though I do admit that this is not really something a casual will do without instructing them to do so.
Anyways, performance-wise, Salandit is great for Lurantis, but you either have to damage it first with a weak attack so you can OHKO with Z-Flame Burst without triggering Synthesis or you need something else to set up sun for you (Salandit doesn't learn Sunny Day, for whatever reason). B-tier at best, maybe C if the strategy for getting a female one is deemed too inefficient. I think the Totem one is superior to this, in spite of coming after Olivia, but that one may be worth dropping to B too. But we will see later on, as the list continues to expand.
Xatu
Haven't had it for long, but Z-Giga Drain OHKOs Lycanroc, though it 2HKOs with Bite in return and is faster. Natural Air Slash is nice, but Natu comes after Akala Totems, where it'd be very useful, so likely D or E, depending on if it's useless later on.
e: results are in, everything from the slate has been placed accordingly. Mime Jr., Prinplup, and Steenee were added to the hot topics
I did a run with Magnemite and wrote a rough draft of a nomination. Anyway, there's a couple matchups where it could have been useful that I didn't use it for. Therefore, I'm going to do another run with Magnemite, which I'm going to start today. Also, for this run, I'm going to try to do Gabite as well.
Anyway, my first impression of Magnemite was A, but I can see it going up to S, so I want to clarify these last couple matchups before I make any decision...
Magnemite is a Pokemon I feel is a strong A tier, but definitely not S.
Magnemite unlike it's BW2 counterpart has actual moves this time around in ElectroWeb, Shock Wave, and Signal Beam from tutors. So what's the problem? It falls flat for 80% of Melemele and Akala. You beat the Normal totem okay, but then you lose to Hala, most likely lose to Araquanid thanks to Wacan Berry weakening Electric STAB, fold to Marowak, AND Lurantis has Low Sweep in USUM (which it didn't have in the OG SM). You're good against Olivia but then Togedemaru is such a slog you can run out of PP.
Thankfully due to evolving at Blush Mountain this time around, Magnezone comes just in time to do well against the rest of the game, even Hapu with Magnet Rise cheese. And THAT is my issue. You have to drag around a Magnemite until it evolves, with it losing to approximately a third of the game's major battles. And even when you get Zone, it's still going to get worn down in some fights and not sweep everything.
Magnemite looks like S on paper but in practice it consistently falters until you get Magnezone, though the route performance is pretty good. I think Magnemite a definite A tier for sure.
I did a run with Magnemite and wrote a rough draft of a nomination. Anyway, there's a couple matchups where it could have been useful that I didn't use it for. Therefore, I'm going to do another run with Magnemite, which I'm going to start today. Also, for this run, I'm going to try to do Gabite as well.
I am not gonna stop you from testing Gabite, though I doubt you will find anything interesting about it. It's an SOS mon (you may wanna catch it starting 5PM (at least in USun) since that's when you get natural Sandstorm) that levels up slowly and has a type advantage only against Molayne and Olivia (though it might be able to contribute elsewhere with chip damage or something). Add in that it already comes late, it won't likely rank high.
But anyways, thanks for the upcoming test! I am looking forward to seeing your results (btw I can give you more mons if you want to fill up your entire party, lmk if you want me to)
One of the biggest things going for Magnemite early on in the game is the combo of Sturdy, Thunder Wave, and Supersonic. I didn't Magnet Rise cheese Hapu the first time around, but this is one of the things I'm testing in this run. The only thing where it's absolutely useless is Toge. I was also thinking Hapu, but then again, Magnet Rise came to mind a couple days back and I was thinking that it could maybe work?
Without explicitly supporting A or S, I don't think Supersonic merits any bonuses to its tier. The move is incredibly inaccurate and with confusion chance being 33%, it's essentially a Russian Roulette against your favor. TWave, though, is a nice utility that can be helpful, although I do have to note that beating something is valued more than mere support (which is why things like Ekans are not higher than C. Their support can be of great help, but it's still more efficient to use something that has a naturally good matchup against the boss than spread support for weaker teammates).
As for the Normal Totems, I probably should note that both of them have 0 IVs in all stats, only 100 EVs in Defense, and -Atk natures, so this probably helps Magnemite's matchup there.
As for Flash Cannon, I think going for it is an overkill. Mirror Shot + Eviolite should handle Olivia just fine, while Z-Mirror Shot will be able to land an OHKO on Mimikyu (Lvl 40 40 SpA Magnezone Corkscrew Crash (120 BP) vs. Lvl 35 198 HP / 104 SpD Mimikyu-Totem: 134-162 (120.7 - 145.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO). But having a 100% accurate STAB move is nice, I guess, though I don't think Flash Cannon will change its tier too much
Anyways, I am looking forward to seeing your Magnemite results. If a dispute happens for A and S, I may use it myself and give it some verdict.
If you want to confirm tiers, anything with two stars (asterisks) is a good start. Most of them are in the Hot Topics on the first post, so you can check there instead as well.
If you want to use things that are yet to be ranked, Zorua, Alolan Vulpix or Sandshrew (depending on your version), and some of the fossils (bar Archen and Kabuto) will greatly appreciate some input
I'll try Zorua and Sandygast to finish up the team! I just don't want to risk using Alolan Sandslash in this run. Same thing with the fossils. I'm already dealing with three mons that are weak to fighting, so I'll probably do it in my next one!
So ig Litten, Magnemite, Gabite, Steenee, Zorua, and Sandygast seems like the team for this run!
Palossand was just "OK" as well. I traded over an egg so I could use it early, but regretted that decision when all the dark moves appeared. Ranking it from its "true" place at Hano Beach (which is still relatively early) doesn't help all that much. You stone wall Olivia with it, but apart from that it's not overly helpful. Evolves late and doesn't have that good of a moveset. Which sucks because I absolutely love its design. The only noteworthy thing mine really did was tank Photon Geysers after using an X Special Def in the ultra Necrozma fight and eventually land a Toxic.
As DSG said above, its movepool really is bad even including access to tutor options. It is however relatively bulky and when you can get in you can usually do OK. But like with most other Ghost/Psychic mons, Dark types are freaking everywhere.
what helps Delibird being actually usable this time is the earlier Flyinium Z and the Bounce tutor, which, combined with Hustle, give it a pretty strong one-time nuke. I remember it having a good matchup against Araquanid, Lurantis, Hapu, and Acerola, but nothing else, which is why Delibird dropping to D is a "suggested" idea right now
double post but done with my run. I updated the OP to exclude Trial Captains from Mina's trial from tiering too. It will likely be perceived as somewhat controversial, but given that the trial is different per version and the fact the list currently has more than enough bosses to base its data on, I think this decision should help keep the list consistent and less burdersome for testing.
Yungoos -> C
Your typical rodent in tier lists, where it has a not-so-bad showing in the earlier portions of the game, but drops in viability later on. It can OHKO Lurantis and Araquanid with +1 Z-Last Resort and also had some use against Acerola and Hapu. All in all, Yungoos isn't so bad, but it didn't feel amazing either. If you want a Normal-type, use Lillipup (faster and levels up faster) or something similar.
Meowth -> D
A huge disappointment. Meowth is severely lacking in power (at least with Fur Coat) and typing isn't very useful either. Persian was mostly limited to weakening foes rather than outright beat them. I'd realistically suggest E-tier for it, too, but I will play it safer and go for D right now
Noibat -> D
Noibat's biggest issue is that it's borderline useless for major fights until it evolves. Once it evolves, it gets a good matchup against Guzm #3, Kommo-o (Specs Draco Meteor is op), and tends to hit hard anything it hits neutrally at worst. But this is not higher than D, because of how long you brin Noibat around
Surskit -> C
A pleasant surprise for me. While Masquerain wasn't a game breaker, it was relatively good in my run. It is good for Lurantis and Ribombee, along with Guzma to an extent (RNG can cause struggles, though). In other matchups, it can generally just come in with Intimidate and weaken the foe. Its biggest flaw is its subpar E4 performance, though it was able to perform well against Hau, by setting up QD, then OHKOing Raichu with Bug Buzz, then Crabo with Air Slash, then Decidueye with Z-Air Slash, then Noivern with Icy Wind, then put Tauros in red with Bug Buzz and faint alongside it due to DEdge recoil.
All in all, it's a bit like Ekans that takes more offensive approach at the cost of less utility.
Salandit -> B (will be put with two asterisks)
Salandit was the most useful member on my team. It beats Togedemaru, Guzma, Ribombee, Molayne, and Acerola with no problems whatsoever, while also being useful against opponents like Nanu. The biggest issue is getting a female Salandit, though you can always do the Sylveon trick I mentioned earlier (and you get a free stone this way if you go with the egg one). However, it still takes some time and effort, which is why C-tier is very possible for it. A good question would be whenever the Totem version should fall; it comes later, notably skipping Lurantis, but does not require any Sylveon shenanigans to be obtained and also has three perfect IVs, which can greatly assist in sweeping.
Natu -> D
Reasonably useful, as it had a good matchup against Hapu, Kommo-o, and Ribombee. It can also perform well against Guzma if you stall out Guzma's Sucker Punch. Unfortunately, typing makes it hardwalled by a lot of opponents, like Togedemaru, Mimikyu, and most of the E4.
next team for me: Caterpie / Squirtle / Goldeen / Spheal / Omanyte / Turtonator
edit: I am gonna drop Goldeen for Komala. Goldeen sucks a lot and I am not expecting a lot from the next parts of the game either. I will elaborate more when I get to make a post, but I am gonna slate it for E and do a retest on it in the future
Caterpie -> will play it safe and put it in C
Butterfree has one of the strongest early-games in USUM. If you hold off evolving for two levels, you retain the higher Attack stat, level up faster, and you also learn Bug Bite, which can be useful for route cleaning and Totem Raticate. Butterfree hardwalls Hala and is good for Lurantis and Araquanid, with Sleep Powder providing good utility in worse matchups.
Butterfree, however, falls flat after Lurantis. Guzma is generally unreliable until you get QD (which means you get it for the last fight only), Nanu's Persian outspeeds Butterfree even at +1, Kommo-o takes heavy damage but wins, and its E4 performnce is pretty bad. However, it can OHKO Ribombee with Z-Air Slash if it's just one stage below its SpD boosts (you can put it to sleep to ensure that), sweep Hapu with QD + sleep, and can also sweep Hau; you live a TBolt, you put Raichu to sleep, QD twice, then heal to avoid QA, and then you use appropriate STAB move to beat the foe.
All in all, I am going with C-tier for now. I considered B, but its non-existant reliable E4 performance, coupled with a couple of matchups where it does nothing make me hesitate on that, but I can see it rising to there too, it's one of the best early-game mons, after all
Squirtle -> B
Comes early and is in a great exp group, so it can abuse that greatly. Work Up + Torrent shenanigans can be useful for opponents, e.g. Hala, most of the E4, which, combined with Z-Rain Dance, becomes even more dangerous. However, this is a heavy set up that it needs in almost every fight, so it's always taking some time to actually win. I can share more if someone is interested, but the short story is that Squirtle can sweep a good amount of fights, but requires heavy setup to do so.
Goldeen -> E
I dropped this just before Togedemaru. Goldeen sucks on the route and couldn't even route clean for itself. Goldeen had no presence whatsoever in major fights. Even Seaking isn't going to deal much with Water Pulse in rain, even as a Z-Move. This will be a subject to retest, but Seaking will likely have few good matchups, which will barely compensate for the fact that Goldeen sucks. If you have to use this, just SOS chain a Seaking, which takes some time, though.
Spheal -> D
Spheal levels up fast... and that's it for most of the game. Spheal dies instantly to Marowak's Brick Break and can kill Olivia's Anorith. Sealeo can live hits with Eviolite, but doesn't do much in return. As a Walrein, it can claim kills from Guzma and Nanu and contribute valuably against Hapu. t the E4, it can claim OHKOs with Specs Ice Beam against most of Kahili and Acerola's mons and be useful for Olivia too. All in all, not too useful, but I cannot see this is as E, so it goes in D.
Omanyte -> D
It's a fossil mon, so no need to explain the issue. Omastar is pretty powerful on its own, as Swift Swim + rain-boosted moves from a high SpA is pretty strong. It was useful for Hapu and most of the E4, though it never really swept anything. Going with D due to its power, but it has too many issues to warrant a higher tier.
Turtonator -> D
The issue with Turtonator is that it's not fast enough. Even with Shell Smash, a lot of major opponents will outspeed and KO it. Turtonator is useful for claiming kills against Guzma and Nanu and most of the E4. Sweeps can happen against Acerola if Froslass doesn't finish you off with Ice Shard and can crush most of Molayne and Kahili's teams, though no sweeps and the latter is barely doable. All in all, Turtonator didn't feel reliable enough to me to warrant a tier higher than D.
Komala -> D
Komala is a Normal-type that comes at a point where Normal is getting resisted constantly. It leveling up slowly also means that you have to concentrate your efforts on it catching up with your team quite a lot. Komala, however, is a pretty good route cleaner and had some utility against Molayne, where it can just spam Work Up to the max against Klefki, which spams TWave to no avail. But Komala has a lot of issues and thus I can't see it higher than D.
need a few more noms before I can make another slate, so if you have rank suggestions, feel free to voice them
(next team for me: Haunter / Diglett / Psyduck / Grovyle / Amaura / Vulpix)
Inkay -> Should be B or may be A
Inkay can be found very early at Route 1 near your house. The first thing which makes it strong is the ability Contrary, which is very useful again pokemons which have lower stat move or ability, for example Hau's Taurous. This ability also make Superpower more useful. For everytime u use it, u get stronger and stronger for increasing 1 in attack and defense. The second thing is Topsy-Turvy learnt at level 15. It is very useful against Totem Pokemon by reverse the boosted stats making the fight a lot easier. Also it can access to Hypnosis help you catch pokemon easily
Inkay -> Should be B or may be A
Inkay can be found very early at Route 1 near your house. The first thing which makes it strong is the ability Contrary, which is very useful again pokemons which have lower stat move or ability, for example Hau's Taurous. This ability also make Superpower more useful. For everytime u use it, u get stronger and stronger for increasing 1 in attack and defense. The second thing is Topsy-Turvy learnt at level 15. It is very useful against Totem Pokemon by reverse the boosted stats making the fight a lot easier. Also it can access to Hypnosis help you catch pokemon easily
Thank you for your nomination. When I used Inkay, I actually teetered between C and B. In most cases, I go with the lower tier in such dilemmas, unless I have a good reason to go with the higher one instead. Anyways, I think there's definitely a case for B-tier for Inkay, though we have to look at its pros and cons:
pros:
- very good end-game. Useful for UN (albeit I couldn't win with it), beats Kommo-o, and is mostly good for the E4
- Topsy-Turvy can be useful for assistance against tougher opponents, like Togedemaru
- Foul Play is a strong move early on, being able to 2HKO most things
cons:
- mostly useless for Akala. It doesn't really do much there, other than deal damage for Marowak that amounts to a 2HKO.
- Topsy-Turvy is pretty useless in some fights, like Kahunas, Mimikyu, and Lurantis (latter two have Bug coverage), so it's not like Inkay can make all fights easier, unlike things like Ekans and (will elaborate later on) Haunter/Gengar
- Foul Play is actually not good for Totems, in most cases. Most Totems, for whatever reason, have low Attack IVs (For example, Mimikyu has 8 in Attack and Araquanid and Kommo-o have 1) and -Atk natures. They specialize in bulk a lot more (since the EVs are allocated there), so Foul Play is often not doing much
- Superpower has only 5 PP. Even with a Max PP, you will often have to use Ethers and etc. if you wanna sweep multiple members of the E4
- Malamar is in the Fluctuating experience group, which makes it a bit hard to grind later on, unless you give it preferential treatment and use it over your teammates.
I have outlined below Inkay's matchups:
Verdant Totem - better if you are playing US. Foul Play 2HKOs Gumshoos after a Topsy-Turvy (if you have it, though you can just 3HKO with Foul Play too) and it wastes time Scary Facing you. Worse against Raticate due to it resisting Foul Play.
Hala - you could theoritically 1v1 Crabrawler with Reflect (to reduce damage taken) and Topsy-Turvy (to negate PuP boosts), though the matchup isn't good. You need healing items and Reflect to (inefficiently) handle Machop as well.
Araquanid - nope. At most if you have more than 33 Speed, you could Topsy-Turvy and remove the Speed boost. However, Araquanid has like only 33 even with that (it has 1 IV in Speed, for whatever reason), so most things that beat it are generally faster anyways, if you are playing with Exp. Share on and two hearts of Pokemon Refresh (both of which are assumed for the purposes of the list).
Marowak - as I said above, you could aim for a 2HKO with Foul Play, though after one, you get KOed by Marowak and Salazzle together. Topsy-Turvy can also be used, given Marowak tends to outspeed more Pokemon, though you can't Foul Play and Topsy-Turvy together as it will faint after using one
Lurantis - nope, gotta love Bug coverage everywhere (X-Scissor)
Olivia - 2HKOs Lycanroc with Foul Play. Bite 4HKOs (when I used it, it spammed that, for w/e reason), so a Reflect can be useful, just in case it decides to Z-Rock you
Togedemaru - after a Topsy Turvy, Foul Play is a 2HKO (3HKO with Sitrus Berry), although Togedemaru is faster and can flinch you to death, though Reflect and a healing item *could* help, if luck is on your side.
Guzma - :(
Mimikyu - it's possible to live a Leech Life from it, but it seems to be a roll. If you do, you can Topsy-Turvy it then break the Disguise.
Nanu - you don't really have anything useful for his Pokemon, so it's not doing much. Superpower comes late for this fight, given Malamar is in the Fluctuating experience group, so getting to level 48 here is "yeah, glhf"
Kommo-o - Topsy-Turvy, then you outspeed and OHKO with Z-Psycho Cut
UN - if you live a DPulse (mine barely did, you may need to use the Focus Sash from Dancer Julia here), you can Topsy-Turvy it then damage it hard with your strongest move available. Not a win, but a major assistance.
Ribombee - if you have Sash, you can put it on Malamar and Topsy-Turvy Ribombee. You won't win, similarly to UN, but the fight becomes very easy at this point
Hapu - OHKO Golurk with Z-Night Slash, then then Superpower Mudsdale twice, then Topsy-Turvy, then heal, then spam Night Slash for the win. Not a straightforward victory, but if you want to use Malamar here, this is pretty much the way to use it to sweep.
Molayne - with a PP Max, you want to use Superpower four times on Klefki, then KO it with Night Slash spam. From this point onwards, Superpower and Night Slash can handle the rest (Superpower handles Bisharp and Night Slash can pmuch handle the rest)
Olivia - only avoid Armaldo. Superpower spam generally wins you the matchup, only watch out for Probopass's Thunder Wave.
Acerola - Z-Night Slash OHKOs Palossand and Night Slash OHKOs Banette and Froslass, while 2HKOing Drifblim and Dhelmise. Good matchup, as a whole
Kahili - 2HKO Braviary with Superpower, then heal against Mandibuzz, then spam Superpower again. The rest should be easy to handle with those buffed stats, especially if you got a Scary Face from Braviary.
Hau - Raichu 3HKOs with Thunderbolt, you can 2HKO with Superpower. Heal against Tauros and kill it with Superpower. Z-Night Slash OHKOs Vaporeon (bonus points if you get Charm or Baby-Doll Eyes), Superpower OHKOs Crabominable, and Night Slash deals with the rest (his starter is Decidueye, in this case).
as you can see, Malamar has an impressive end-game due to Superpower shenanigans. Its earlier contributions are somewhat lackluster, I don't think it's as good as a support Pokemon as most people think it is, given that it doesn't always get that opportunity.
I am willing to push it to B-tier with more arguments and data, because its end-game contributions are certainly impressive. However, I'd like someone else to give it a test first, because chances are some people will disagree with B-tier and I don't really want to constantly move it from C to B and B to C. I want to use this as an opportunity to "seal" its tier once and for all and sooner than later is better (good rhyming :eyes:)
as for A, I am going to say that such a high rank is out of question for Inkay. The outlined cons above should be enough to prevent any higher tier, though B is possible.
===
I finished a while ago my last run.
Gastly (No Trade) -> merge with Gengar, potentially drop both to C
Haunter is a bit... weird. It is almost never good on its own in most matchups (Ribombee, Kahili, and Acerola are the only matchups where KOing itself wasn't needed to win), but instead, in most cases, it contributes by outspeeding and inflicting the opponent (typically a Totem) with Curse, sometimes you have to live the hit, though, but Eviolite can help with that. Later on, you get Destiny Bond, which allows it to troll Kommo-o and UN (latter requiring Sash). However, as I said, it never really wins on its own, outside of those three matchups.
Gengar can do the same thing. I used Gengar like last year without Curse sets whatsoever and it was pretty suboptimal. The only reason I ut it in B was because I never used Curse sets, which could have improved its support performance. I think Haunter and Gastly should be merged in one tier, because both are good Cursers and you won't see a notable difference between the two to the point where you would split their rankings. I think they could also both be C instead of B due to the fact they rarely win on their own. Gastly will get two asterisks due to this.
Diglett -> C-tier, mayybeee B, though that is pushing it, most likely
Diglett was a lot better than I expected. It is initially bad due to bad defensive typing and low bulk. However, Dugtrio covers Togedemaru and Mimikyu very handily. In fact, Mimikyu can be beaten *without support* whatsoever (Bulldoze, then Z-Iron Head). It is also good for Olivia, as a whole and Ribombee. Tangling Hair can also be useful in matchups where Diglett is otherwise useless. However, at the E4, it will often fail to OHKO things even with a super effective move, so it's easy to damage it hard in the process, which is why I am going with C rather than B (combined with the fact the early matchups aren't good, either)
Psyduck -> going with C, considered B, but will play it safer
Psyduck's biggest selling point is that it comes very early. Brick Break makes it good for Totem Raticate (2HKO, 3HKO if Gumshoos) and, unlike most Water-types, it can OHKO Marowak (Rain Dance, then Z-Water Pulse. Due to earlier arrival, Psyduck is going to be a higher level than most Water-types). I managed to beat Mimikyu with it (Psych Up, then break Disguise, then gamble on a 87.5 chance to OHKO with Z-Iron Tail). You can use Z-Rain Dance to beat Nanu's Sableye and Krokorok (use Hydro Pump here). Can beat Ribombee with Z-Hydro Pump and Psych Up.
At the E4, against Molayne, beat Klefki, then switch out against Magnezone. Set up Z-Rain Dance against something, preferably Metagross, which is then KOed by HPump + Scald. Bisharp is almost OHKOed, but finishes you off. Dugtrio is outsped with the Speed boost and dies to Scald. Against Olivia, Specs Scald OHKOs Armaldo, 3HKOs Probopass under sand, and 2HKOs Gigalith under sand. Lycanroc outspeeds if you have Speed drops and nukes you with Z-Rock. Against Acerola, CM twice on Banette and OHKO it, Froslass, and Palossand with Scald. Heal against Froslass if needed. Dhelmise dies to Ice Beam and Drifblim dies to Z-Moves. Against Kahili, Specs Ice Beam OHKOs Hawlucha, Toucannon, and Braviary, 2HKOs the rest. Braviary outspeeds and 2HKOs with BB, so Mandi wins. Hawlucha 3HKOs with its moves and Oricorio is faster and confuses you.
Pretty long, but decided to go with C, as it felt somewhat average outside of few cases. B is very much possible and I will have someone give it another test before I seal its tier.
Grovyle -> D
Gee, a Grass-type wasn't good in Alola, who would've thought? Anyways, similarly to most Grass-types, it's not particularly great for most matchups, outside of Olivia #1's Lycanroc, Hapu, and Olivia #2 (not a sweep). It can contribute against Nanu and with some kills at the E4. Realistically speaking, Grovyle has a better chance of C-tier than Steenee for the mere reason that
a) it comes a lot earlier
b) it levels up faster
but for now, I am gonna go with D on this one too, as it wasn't particularly good. Being fast and frail isn't helpful when your typing isn't good either.
Amaura -> gonna be generous and go with D
Amaura is a fossil Pokemon that evolves late, so I will just stop here. Amaura is useful for Guzma, generally fearing only Pinsir due to Storm Throw (outspeeds Golisopod, ftr) and is also good for RIbombee with Psych Up and Ancient Power. At the E4, it can help against Acerola and Kahili with Specs Ice Beam, but is generally not good for the rest (outside of getting kills on Hau too)
Vulpix -> going with C-tier
Vulpix is great for Guzma (not a sweep, but you often take out Masquerain and Pinsir or Vikavolt), Nanu, Hapu, Acerola with Nasty Plot, and Kahili, while also being very useful against Hau. Late availability + a couple of bad matchups, especially at the E4, prevent it from being a higher tier, but I am happy to leave this at C, rather than D.
from now on, to not flood the thread too much. I will post nominations for *few* runs, rather than every time I am done with one. This should give other people more room to contribute and it allows me to do my testing at a more peaceful pace.
I have a run going with Zorua / Drifloon / Machoke / Mareanie / Anorith / Sandshrew, with more coming in the future. I will have a slate ready this Friday, so feel free to give more nominations if you want them featured in the next slate.
Once I do a few more runs with some stuff that I want to test first, I will create a mega slate and feature all Pokemon that do not have a rank at that point. This should help us move to the "confirmation" phase and hopefully seal C and above's tiers and thus push the list to write-ups.
A tier is way too high for Inkay. Foul Play wrecks stuff early on but then everything goes to crap on Akala. I’ve used it in two separate playthroughs and the midgame is just a whole bunch of meh - flopping almost entirely on Akala aside from Marowak and also being not very good for Ula’ula (Togedemaru has high Defense negating Foul Play, Mimikyu creams you, and don’t even think about Guzma).
True, the beginning and the end are pretty good. But an A tier generally needs less than a handful of outright losing matchups and Inkay, despite amazing on paper, simply doesn’t meet that criteria. Wingull, for example, sweeps Akala more or less (though Olivia might be a bit shaky) and is generally decent elsewhere last I checked (aside from stuff like Totem Kommo-o Thunderpunch and Totem Togedemaru).
So yeah. Foul Play and Contrary are huge boons but when I actually used Inkay it wasn’t quite a world destroyer. Also doesn’t help you rely on Foul Play for 31 levels until Psycho Cut, and no resistances (plus only a lone immunity to Psychic) don’t help its case. I could kinda see C honestly but if it’s in B I wouldn’t make a fuss - this game is really hard and we have to use different standards compared to the other games.
Anything in the "Hot Topics" section, especially Stufful. If you can trade, Zam and Machamp definitely need another look. If you don't mind stacking types, Flareon would also appreciate another look to see if it's better off in B rather than C (if you do use it, hatch the Eevee egg for an earlier Fire Stone, though you could grab either Eevee for testing purposes). If no, you can probably use Sylveon, since I had some thoughts about B, but decided to play it safer.
If not, you can just pick something with one asterisk, preferably from the higher tiers.
Anything in the "Hot Topics" section, especially Stufful. If you can trade, Zam and Machamp definitely need another look. If you don't mind stacking types, Flareon would also appreciate another look to see if it's better off in B rather than C (if you do use it, hatch the Eevee egg for an earlier Fire Stone, though you could grab either Eevee for testing purposes). If no, you can probably use Sylveon, since I had some thoughts about B, but decided to play it safer.
If not, you can just pick something with one asterisk, preferably from the higher tiers.
If the gts still works, I can throw kadabra and machoke in there and just wait. Is there any guidelines on when trade evolutions should "evolve"? Or do we just do it as soon as we are able to
If the gts still works, I can throw kadabra and machoke in there and just wait. Is there any guidelines on when trade evolutions should "evolve"? Or do we just do it as soon as we are able to
To avoid type repetition, I'll go with litten, grubbin, marshtomp, alakazam, machamp and bulbasaur. I'll set up my file later today
I remember litten and grubbin being really good in my normal playthrough, so I'm excited to put them to the test
Yo, I'd like to start helping out with one of these, so I'm gonna start a run tonight or tomorrow with Makuhita, Flareon, Bruxish, Bulbasaur, Oricorio, and Rattata-A.
2 quick questions before I start: 1) what's the verdict on Mantine Surfing for tutor moves? I don't recall seeing anything on them in the thread. I personally don't mind getting them but if they're too inefficient I'll skip 'em. And 2) why are Makuhita A and Rattata B? These both struck me as being a bit higher than I would've thought which is why I'm testing them. Just want to make sure I'm not missing anything with them.
Edit: and I assume Hustle is optimal for Rattata?
Yo, I'd like to start helping out with one of these, so I'm gonna start a run tonight or tomorrow with Makuhita, Flareon, Bruxish, Bulbasaur, Oricorio, and Rattata-A.
2 quick questions before I start: 1) what's the verdict on Mantine Surfing for tutor moves? I don't recall seeing anything on them in the thread. I personally don't mind getting them but if they're too inefficient I'll skip 'em. And 2) why are Makuhita A and Rattata B? These both struck me as being a bit higher than I would've thought which is why I'm testing them. Just want to make sure I'm not missing anything with them.
Edit: and I assume Hustle is optimal for Rattata?
for Mantine surfing, getting BP for tutor moves is fair game and I don't hold it against any Pokemon. The only time move tutors from beaches can be negative is if a Pokemon requires a huge amount of them (like, four, for example) or you have to constantly reteach them. The cases aren't a lot, but they exist
2) Why is Makuhita A-tier? Makuhita is a pretty good Pokemon, because it performs well in a lot of matchups, even ones that don't look so advantageous to it. To be more specific:
Verdant Cavern - should be obvious, ends the trial in an instant
Hala - this one comes from logs rather than memories, so there may be some errors, but you can Fake Out Machop, then use Z-Work Up and then OHKO Machop and Makuhita with BB (mine was like level 19, though, due to Fluctuating experience being relatively good at that period of time). Only Crabrawler poses an issue, but if you are healthy enough to live a Z-Pup, you can also beat it.
Araquanid - if you have Makuhita evolved (reasonable, Fluctuating is only outclassed by Fast and Med Slow at this point and if you fight most trainers you meet throughout your journey with Exp. Share and Pokemon Refresh exp boost, both of which are assumed for this list), you can Fake Out Araquanid, then Z-Work Up then spam Knock Off till you win. Hariyama is incredibly bulky, so it doesn't fear Araquanid whatsoever (gotta love it having 1 IV in Special Attack)
Marowak - Z-Work Up as it Detects and OHKO with Knock Off. Plain and simple. Again, bulky enough where it doesn't need to worry too much about dying instantly to Marowak
Lurantis - Work Up then Z-Fire Punch for an OHKO. Plain and simple again.
Olivia - easy win, not gonna elaborate
Togedemaru - Z-Brick Break after Work Up should be able to OHKO Togedemaru. The only issue is that you have to play round Spiky Shield and Bounce, though if it does go for Bounce, you can attack on the turn it lands, since it's faster.
Guzma - generally a bad matchup, at most you can get a kill on one of his mons, generally Pinsir (or Vikavolt in the final fight), but yeah, this matchup isn't good
Mimikyu - nope
Nanu - this one was surprisingly not as great, but I don't remember exactly, my logs aren't helping here either. I think the issue here is that Krokorok prevents a sweep from happening, though if you are burned (with Flame Orb from the Ula'Ula Meadow Golfer), you could probably beat Sableye and also aim for an OHKOo on Persian
Kommo-o - if you are burned, you can use Z-CC to almost OHKO it. You are 3HKOed by Dragon Claw. If Scizor uses Bullet Punch, you lose, otherwise, you win.
Ribombee - nope
Hapu - Ice Punch 2HKOs Golurk (with burn), Z-CC OHKOs Mudsdale and CC OHKOs Gastrodon. Flygon finishes you off
Molayne - if you are burned (or let yourself be paralyzed by Klefki's Thunder Wave), you can Z-Work Up and OHKO Klefki with BB, then Metagross with Knock Off (I outsped because Metagross doesn't have Speed EVs), Dugtrio deals heavy damage to you, but dies, then Zone finishes you off. Bisharp is an easy kill if you are healthy to live an attack. To be honest, going for Z-Work Up here might have been an overkill, but that's what I did
Olivia - easy matchup, Z-Work Up + BB gets everything as you outspeed all of them, only make sure you KOff Probopass first to not waste time while she heals it up
Acerola - Z-Work Up then spam Knock Off for the win. Most things aren't threatening it or are slower than it
Kahili - nope
Hau - OHKOs Tauros and Crabo with BB. Z-BB is an OHKO on Vapo even at -1 due to burn, though it's very likely to die due to burn. Decidueye is 2HKOed by unburned Knock Off but deals heavy damage with Bloom Doom
as a whole, Makuhita has the following pros and cons:
pros:
- (from experience) an incredible streak of good matchups. From the moment of catching it to Togedemaru, it is pretty much never a letdown. Only after getting past Togedemaru does it start experiencing difficulties in performance
- Fluctuating experience is both a plus and a negative, because it allows Makuhita to evolve very early and thus improve its performance at the cost of being harder to grind later on
- even with the bad matchups, Makuhita has respectable matchups in the later portions of the game too, especially since it's relatively good for the E4
cons:
- as I said, Flunctuating makes it hard to grind later on, although it does make evolving it before Araquanid possible (I have done that with other Fluctuating mons like Inkay and Drifloon, so it seems all in all reasonable)
- in some portions of the late- and end-game it becomes a bit more reliant on healing items to sweep, though I don't think they were too many.
all in all, the reason why I put Makuhita in A is because it comes extremely early and I had a great experience with it due to its chain of great matchups for half of the game. I am curious to see the results of your incoming test and if they match my experience
===
As for Rattata, I am not gonna elaborate too much on it as to not make this post too long (and getting my old logs is a bit of a chore as I have them scattered), but tl;dr Z-Last Resort + Hustle (Z-Moves get the Attack boost but do not check for accuracy whatsoever) is an incredible nuke that kills most neutral targets like Araquanid and Lurantis. My memories with it aren't as clear as with Makuhita, so I cannot defend its tier too much, so an additional test on it would give me a good insight as to whenever I overrated it (or underrated it? :eyes:). But yeah, the main reason why I put it in B is because Z-Last Resort + Hustle is broken on neutral targets.
for Mantine surfing, getting BP for tutor moves is fair game and I don't hold it against any Pokemon. The only time move tutors from beaches can be negative is if a Pokemon requires a huge amount of them (like, four, for example) or you have to constantly reteach them. The cases aren't a lot, but they exist
2) Why is Makuhita A-tier? Makuhita is a pretty good Pokemon, because it performs well in a lot of matchups, even ones that don't look so advantageous to it. To be more specific:
Verdant Cavern - should be obvious, ends the trial in an instant
Hala - this one comes from logs rather than memories, so there may be some errors, but you can Fake Out Machop, then use Z-Work Up and then OHKO Machop and Makuhita with BB (mine was like level 19, though, due to Fluctuating experience being relatively good at that period of time). Only Crabrawler poses an issue, but if you are healthy enough to live a Z-Pup, you can also beat it.
Araquanid - if you have Makuhita evolved (reasonable, Fluctuating is only outclassed by Fast and Med Slow at this point and if you fight most trainers you meet throughout your journey with Exp. Share and Pokemon Refresh exp boost, both of which are assumed for this list), you can Fake Out Araquanid, then Z-Work Up then spam Knock Off till you win. Hariyama is incredibly bulky, so it doesn't fear Araquanid whatsoever (gotta love it having 1 IV in Special Attack)
Marowak - Z-Work Up as it Detects and OHKO with Knock Off. Plain and simple. Again, bulky enough where it doesn't need to worry too much about dying instantly to Marowak
Lurantis - Work Up then Z-Fire Punch for an OHKO. Plain and simple again.
Olivia - easy win, not gonna elaborate
Togedemaru - Z-Brick Break after Work Up should be able to OHKO Togedemaru. The only issue is that you have to play round Spiky Shield and Bounce, though if it does go for Bounce, you can attack on the turn it lands, since it's faster.
Guzma - generally a bad matchup, at most you can get a kill on one of his mons, generally Pinsir (or Vikavolt in the final fight), but yeah, this matchup isn't good
Mimikyu - nope
Nanu - this one was surprisingly not as great, but I don't remember exactly, my logs aren't helping here either. I think the issue here is that Krokorok prevents a sweep from happening, though if you are burned (with Flame Orb from the Ula'Ula Meadow Golfer), you could probably beat Sableye and also aim for an OHKOo on Persian
Kommo-o - if you are burned, you can use Z-CC to almost OHKO it. You are 3HKOed by Dragon Claw. If Scizor uses Bullet Punch, you lose, otherwise, you win.
Ribombee - nope
Hapu - Ice Punch 2HKOs Golurk (with burn), Z-CC OHKOs Mudsdale and CC OHKOs Gastrodon. Flygon finishes you off
Molayne - if you are burned (or let yourself be paralyzed by Klefki's Thunder Wave), you can Z-Work Up and OHKO Klefki with BB, then Metagross with Knock Off (I outsped because Metagross doesn't have Speed EVs), Dugtrio deals heavy damage to you, but dies, then Zone finishes you off. Bisharp is an easy kill if you are healthy to live an attack. To be honest, going for Z-Work Up here might have been an overkill, but that's what I did
Olivia - easy matchup, Z-Work Up + BB gets everything as you outspeed all of them, only make sure you KOff Probopass first to not waste time while she heals it up
Acerola - Z-Work Up then spam Knock Off for the win. Most things aren't threatening it or are slower than it
Kahili - nope
Hau - OHKOs Tauros and Crabo with BB. Z-BB is an OHKO on Vapo even at -1 due to burn, though it's very likely to die due to burn. Decidueye is 2HKOed by unburned Knock Off but deals heavy damage with Bloom Doom
as a whole, Makuhita has the following pros and cons:
pros:
- (from experience) an incredible streak of good matchups. From the moment of catching it to Togedemaru, it is pretty much never a letdown. Only after getting past Togedemaru does it start experiencing difficulties in performance
- Fluctuating experience is both a plus and a negative, because it allows Makuhita to evolve very early and thus improve its performance at the cost of being harder to grind later on
- even with the bad matchups, Makuhita has respectable matchups in the later portions of the game too, especially since it's relatively good for the E4
cons:
- as I said, Flunctuating makes it hard to grind later on, although it does make evolving it before Araquanid possible (I have done that with other Fluctuating mons like Inkay and Drifloon, so it seems all in all reasonable)
- in some portions of the late- and end-game it becomes a bit more reliant on healing items to sweep, though I don't think they were too many.
all in all, the reason why I put Makuhita in A is because it comes extremely early and I had a great experience with it due to its chain of great matchups for half of the game. I am curious to see the results of your incoming test and if they match my experience
===
As for Rattata, I am not gonna elaborate too much on it as to not make this post too long (and getting my old logs is a bit of a chore as I have them scattered), but tl;dr Z-Last Resort + Hustle (Z-Moves get the Attack boost but do not check for accuracy whatsoever) is an incredible nuke that kills most neutral targets like Araquanid and Lurantis. My memories with it aren't as clear as with Makuhita, so I cannot defend its tier too much, so an additional test on it would give me a good insight as to whenever I overrated it (or underrated it? :eyes:). But yeah, the main reason why I put it in B is because Z-Last Resort + Hustle is broken on neutral targets.
Aight, good to know, thanks for going so in-depth. I'll get to testing soon, hopefully have some logs up by tomorrow evening :)
Edit: so because the USUM just ignores you when you change the system time and I'm on day right now, I don't think I can get Rattata tonight so my logs (I plan to post after I beat Hapu) might not be for a few days unless there's a way around this. Plus, this may also stall me getting Bulbasaur cuz I think it doea this for the date, too. Boy am I glad SwSh did away with this nonsense and just let you change the date.
