Super Smash Bros. Discussion

[Plague von Karma]

So I thought I'd share some game mechanic stuff that was solved a couple of days ago with the assistance of a few people. I'm a bit of a nerd on Smash Ultimate tech and mechanics so it's always nice to see new things.

When King K. Rool's Crownerang Damage-based armour (usually just called crown armour) was buffed in 6.0.0, we noticed that it would sometimes just...not work. We were sort of aware of it in mid-2019 as it wouldn't armour Palutena's Explosive Flame properly, but we didn't think much of it. Normally, damage-based armour will prevent you from being knocked back no matter how many hits there are, so long as it's not above that value.

Up until recently we just didn't understand the issue and assumed it was at least semi-random. The main theory I proposed was that it was "Cumulative", as in it has a sort of HP value like Belly Super Armor, and soon someone came up with a model semi-close to the conclusion here. These theories were half-right, let's get into it.

So as it turns out, unlike any other damage-based armour in the game (or at least, from Lattie's research, it seems so), Crownerang uses a unique equation when multiple hits strike the armour while it's active;

(Base Damage of prior hits) * 1.2 + (Base Damage of the last hit) > 12%
12% being the Damage-based armour value of Crownerang

What this means is that the armour will total up the base damage of the previous hits and multiply them by 1.2x. Not sure why it does the multiplication, though I infer it's the 1v1 multiplier. It then adds the base damage of the last hit, and adds them together, all before doing the final comparison with the armour value.

So in the case of Explosive Flame, we get this;

1.5% * 6 = 9% (total multihits from EF)
9% * 1.2 = 10.8%
10.8% + 5.5% = 16.3% (armour breaks)

However, while this seems like an open and shut equation, computers can't represent 1.2 in math properly...or at least Ultimate can't. ROB's Arm Rotor deals 10.5% overall minimum, but because of floating-point errors, the game still causes the armour to fail. Ergo, this model isn't quite finished yet.

Interested in stringing hits together and seeing what combination breaks the armour? I made a calculator on this resource here. I also documented it on SmashWiki and a few other relevant places.

Thanks to the people in the Kurogane Hammer Discord, as well as Spiny Bro, for helping me figure this stuff out.

It's a damn shame the Smogon Smash Discord server is so dead. I really liked the place and I'd really love to see it revived. This thread is really nice but I greatly prefer discussing the game and finding matches in a live chat environment.

For what it's worth, my personal server (see sig) has a fairly active Smash chat as well as a matchmaking channel. I guess that can serve the purpose?

 

[Martin]

in a sort of "pure" sense i do feel kazuya is a little weird. like he's kiiind of the closest thing tekken has to a main character i guess? and tekken is the biggest 3d fighter today. but in a like... "historical significance" sense it's weird because heihachi is more recognizable and virtua fighter is more foundational/"important."

i mean obviously they were never gonna put a VF character in there but I could see someone nitpicking that aspect of things a bit lol

Re: Heihachi, outside of the costume clash, I expect the reason Kazuya was chosen over him may have been because Heihachi’s voice actor has died since the release of Tekken 7. There’s a cultural thing in Japan that you don’t often see in the west where characters often get “discontinued” (for lack of a better word) when their voice actors die as a mark of respect. Of course there may be other reasons I’m unaware of, but this was the first thing that came to mind, especially considering the Mishima saga was supposed to be wrapped up in Tekken 7 (though whether that will actually happen is another question).

Edit: I’ve looked it up again and apparently he was neither the original Heihachi voice actor nor the first one who’s died, so idk. I’m sure there’s a reason—maybe Kazuya’s easier to translate over to Smash’s systems or something (IIRC Heihachi is a lot more counter hit-driven, so that may have something to do with it).

 

[Ununhexium]

so ive only ever owned brawl and played the hell out of that, but a few years ago someone told me about Project M and i was hyped because i remember playing Roy and having a blast so when someone told me i could have Roy in Brawl i was super excited. anyway, i picked up Marth because hes way better. im pretty far from a hardcore player as i only play with my buddies in like free for alls so its not really competitive but we have fun and thats what matters. recently ive picked up Shiek and played a lot of her which is a lot of fun because of the Slap but i also like to play DK because hes fun.

 

[Oglemi]

So I love the Smash series; me and my brother probably have close to 500+ hours across 64, Melee, and Brawl, and then we've played 4 and Ultimate when we get together at holidays and stuff.

I've nearly 100%ed the series with just some odds and ends I never did. We never could beat the one Taboo challenge in Brawl, and I don't know that I ever verified I got all the Stickers though i know we got close. I think we got everything in 4 except some online challenges? Idr rn.

For Ultimate the only spirits I'm currently missing are Mew (am playing through the campaign again to get it tho) and Sophie because I was gone that week and haven't found her in the dumb Spirit Board. I've also maxed out each Primary Spirit to lvl 100.

Me and brother always play with 2 Comps on higher levels and a few items, banning a good portion of them lol, but particularly the obnoxiously broken ones (looking at you gust bellows). I never could get into strict comp 1v1 fights, but I do enjoy it when requested and I did a bit of For Glory in smash 4.

Favorite character to play in Ultimate is Ganandorf, they've finally perfected his playstyle and it is glorious. For Melee it's Capt Falcon, 64 it's Kirby and DK, and for 4 it's Dedede and Toon Link. I no longer play Brawl and we only ever played the campaign, we hated just regular fights in brawl lol, way too floaty and the tripppps.

 

[Plague von Karma]

So Kazuya is out, and because I've not had much to do the past day, I decided to get in the lab. Namely, doing some number crunching, because that's what I do best.

Here's one of those damage-based armor compendiums I used to do, only this one is for Kazuya. It also includes some data and a calculator for "Tekken Rage" as I'll call it until someone finds a better distinguishing name, which is a very interesting mechanic. Interestingly, FSmash's armor applies on charge release, so Kazuya has an idiot magnet. If he charges it in neutral and you don't have a move to knock him out of his "12%" damage-based armor, don't try to challenge it. You'll die.

For a summary on "Tekken Rage", Meshima shared a very nice tweet here, which I used for the Rage data on that sheet above.

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1410142189804351488

Translation from a friend:

Rage disappears if the sum of [grab/down special (?)/empty command (whiff?) x 110] + [damage taken x 17.6] >= 650
In team play, 17.6 is changed to 11.22

Essentially, how much you whiff your Rage Drive determines how easy it is for Kazuya to be knocked out of it, effectively reducing the threshold. 30% taken during Rage makes the "number" 528 with 0 whiffs, for example, which then becomes 638 with 1. It's very interesting. Once it goes over the 650 threshold, though, Rage goes away. It's pretty much impossible to knock Kazuya out right away though, so focus on a two-hit combo or something if you play a high-damage character. Otherwise, go for a BnB.

If you play Terry or K. Rool, I updated their armor sheets for this patch as well. Yes, including the damage buffs for Marth and the Miis!

Finally, wow that reflector...

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1410241320271200256

 

[Oglemi]

Kazuya plays like a weird mesh of Ganondorf, Little Mac, and Ryu. Once he's in close range he's incredible, and he has kill potential super early, maybe even earlier than Ganondorf. It'll be interesting to see if he has any success in tournaments or if he just gets ranged out by sword users and campers

 

[Hulavuta]

Re: Heihachi, outside of the costume clash, I expect the reason Kazuya was chosen over him may have been because Heihachi’s voice actor has died since the release of Tekken 7. There’s a cultural thing in Japan that you don’t often see in the west where characters often get “discontinued” (for lack of a better word) when their voice actors die as a mark of respect. Of course there may be other reasons I’m unaware of, but this was the first thing that came to mind, especially considering the Mishima saga was supposed to be wrapped up in Tekken 7 (though whether that will actually happen is another question).

Edit: I’ve looked it up again and apparently he was neither the original Heihachi voice actor nor the first one who’s died, so idk. I’m sure there’s a reason—maybe Kazuya’s easier to translate over to Smash’s systems or something (IIRC Heihachi is a lot more counter hit-driven, so that may have something to do with it).

You're partially right; Heihachi was originally supposed to be the DLC fighter, but after all of the allegations that he murdered his wife surfaced, Sakurai decided to fire him and and all of his existing work was digitally replaced with Kazuya during post-production. Probably a good idea for Sakurai to play it safe I think, as Smash really can't do with even more controversy at this point.




Kazuya seemed pretty insane to me when I first tried him, but I realized that's probably because we were all just doing mirror matches where everyone is always in range of each other. Right off the bat, I think one of his biggest strengths is his ambiguous movement as his up-b basically serves as a third jump that is way higher than any other character's third jump.


I think projectile users will give him a lot of trouble, as laser eyes isn't really as great as I thought it would be. And I think characters with a lot of dash grab combos could also be a pain, as he is quite heavy and (at least from what I can tell so far) he doesn't have a lot of great defensive options. Unless some of his moves have some pretty insane armor or can be thrown out really pre-emptively and safely? He's got so many that I have to admit I don't know them all yet.

 

[Plague von Karma]

Kazuya plays like a weird mesh of Ganondorf, Little Mac, and Ryu. Once he's in close range he's incredible, and he has kill potential super early, maybe even earlier than Ganondorf. It'll be interesting to see if he has any success in tournaments or if he just gets ranged out by sword users and campers

Ryu should not be lumped in here, he plays a much campier game than the rest and Kazuya can't really compare. Ken would be a far more accurate comparison considering he's the "I will slowly weave my way in, and kill you off a single hit" character. I'm not sure if Ganondorf or Little Mac really work either; Ganondorf is a slow heavy hitter and Little Mac is "I have armor and non-rebound on all my moves. Fear me". They're definitely easy comparisons to draw on a surface level, but a nuanced comparison would show this simply isn't the case. Both have very different punish games in that they're usually 2-hit combos (though ganon has that DThrow DA NAir opener) or stray hits. Kazuya, on the other hand, has Tekken punish game in long-winded, horizontal combos that kill you. Typical Mishima antics, haha.

I'd say in regards to swordfighters and camping characters, he's fine. Disjoints have always held FG characters back - and rightfully so - but their faster frame data overall gives them a significant boost once they're in. Kazuya seems to fit that bill, and his astonishingly well-guarded moveset will assist here. Reminder that ffA (-> -> A) reflects F7 onwards with a 2.4x damage multiplier btw, larger than any other in the game. Like, by a country mile. This alone massively increases his approach game against projectiles. He just approaches in a traditional manner, that's all.

I think projectile users will give him a lot of trouble, as laser eyes isn't really as great as I thought it would be. And I think characters with a lot of dash grab combos could also be a pain, as he is quite heavy and (at least from what I can tell so far) he doesn't have a lot of great defensive options. Unless some of his moves have some pretty insane armor or can be thrown out really pre-emptively and safely? He's got so many that I have to admit I don't know them all yet.

He has intangibility on a ton of his moves, including the 623 Tekken wavedash. His smashes also have armor, including FSmash's "12%" damage-based armor on charge release which I believe is on F7. He's more than capable of closing distance, he's just an FG character so he has to do it in a more traditional way. He's all about microspacing and the like. I don't think he'll have much trouble in the sense that Ryu, Ken, and Terry all have fantastic options to get through. Not to mention he has an Instant Dash Attack longer than most in the game.

 

[Violet]

Yo I'm Violet, I'm a Joker/ZSS/Seph player in Ult, Marth/ZSS in other iterations
I've been playing since Brawl but never had Smash 4, so coming into Ult was mad hype for me, especially seeing Joker as the first dlc pick (big persona guy)
Would play the fuck out of p+ or melee if my computer wasn't a toaster
If you've ever been in the smash room on PS!, you've probably seen me, pull up sometimes it's chill
Went to my first local a bit ago and my round 1 was Comet (#1 Wisconsin player, I do not live near Wisconsin) so you can guess how that went
I do plan to attend more but I should probably stop procrastinating and grab a driver's license to facilitate that, it was certainly an interesting experience

Aight since ppl talking about Kazuya, I'll say I do believe Tekken 100% deserves a rep, but there ain't no way I am playing this character lmao
I don't think he's gonna be that great, I think it's obvious he's gonna have broken advantage like the rest of the fgc nerds but man what is stopping me from circle camping his ass LOL
Someone else brought up swords and yeah after playing Cloud and Seph against him uhhhh lol how does he get in
Obviously my experience is not exemplary of top level, but it does not seem like his grounded approach is good enough to make up for his less than stellar aerial one, makes stuffing his ass pretty easy + been watching early top level gameplay and while it is early, it still doesn't reassure me
I've been seeing top players try to react to projectiles with the reflecting axe kick and boy it is not going well lmao
I generally don't think reflectors are very good in this game and despite the insane multiplier I don't think this one will fare any better, he's still going to struggle against anyone who stays mobile while throwing things out
I think the wavedash thing will certainly help (esp. after watching Riddles use it), but I don't think plats and air space in general are gonna be fun for this guy
Def don't think his ledgetrapping or edgeguarding are anything special, his disad looks outright no bueno, how he landing
Rage Drive is possibly the least scary comeback mechanic yet given that you can hit this not especially fast but heavy character ~3 times and he loses it, tho goddamn does that command grab have some wild armor on startup + 1.1 dmg multiplier on a character that already deals 80 from touching you once is nasty

tl,dr: don't let him touch you and it should be fine
Obviously he's got some advantage and movement to optimize but I don't foresee someone finding a crazy tech to solve the rest of his issues
Also just want to say that the laser being that bad is so funny I'm so happy that it sucks lmaooooo

2B for smash

 

[nya]

Hi I'm Bidoof Princess (Puff Player/Nia Pig Tertiary in SmUsh, Peach player in SmWiiUsh)

Been playing since like 2015 and by playing I mean never touching the main game and just turning the game on to listen to the music.

I refuse to play on any stage that isn't PAC-LAND because I am a casual who enjoys having fun.


Kazuya is cool. I think he's funny. Feels very different from what I'm used to and that makes him feel super fresh to me. I enjoy him more than a lot of the roster. But I dislike his model and how grumpy he is therefore he is a bad inclusion who 100% did not deserve to be in Smash (unlike good characters like Party Phil)


If you couldn't tell im also the world's best smash player. I 3 stocked the RO of the Smash PS room one time so Im basically a smash goddess.

 

[Abbey Street]

Aight since ppl talking about Kazuya, I'll say I do believe Tekken 100% deserves a rep, but there ain't no way I am playing this character lmao
I don't think he's gonna be that great, I think it's obvious he's gonna have broken advantage like the rest of the fgc nerds but man what is stopping me from circle camping his ass LOL
Someone else brought up swords and yeah after playing Cloud and Seph against him uhhhh lol how does he get in
Obviously my experience is not exemplary of top level, but it does not seem like his grounded approach is good enough to make up for his less than stellar aerial one, makes stuffing his ass pretty easy + been watching early top level gameplay and while it is early, it still doesn't reassure me
I've been seeing top players try to react to projectiles with the reflecting axe kick and boy it is not going well lmao
I generally don't think reflectors are very good in this game and despite the insane multiplier I don't think this one will fare any better, he's still going to struggle against anyone who stays mobile while throwing things out
I think the wavedash thing will certainly help (esp. after watching Riddles use it), but I don't think plats and air space in general are gonna be fun for this guy
Def don't think his ledgetrapping or edgeguarding are anything special, his disad looks outright no bueno, how he landing
Rage Drive is possibly the least scary comeback mechanic yet given that you can hit this not especially fast but heavy character ~3 times and he loses it, tho goddamn does that command grab have some wild armor on startup + 1.1 dmg multiplier on a character that already deals 80 from touching you once is nasty

Wow, I dream of making arguments this poorly informed barely 24 hours after a character has released.

We really need to give this character time. Even with the insane movement tech and whatnot that we’ve found, this is one of the most advanced characters in Smash history, and even the first glimpse of his full potential is going to take weeks. It’s possible he could even be a bad matchup for swords because of how good crouch dash is. Now let’s give Kazuya some time.

 

[Plague von Karma]

I'm going to take the angle of using Terry as a reference point here, as Kazuya seems most similar to him and he actually has a developed metagame.

what is stopping me from circle camping his ass LOL

I've been seeing top players try to react to projectiles with the reflecting axe kick and boy it is not going well lmao
I generally don't think reflectors are very good in this game and despite the insane multiplier I don't think this one will fare any better, he's still going to struggle against anyone who stays mobile while throwing things out

It's almost like every character deals with projectiles differently and any normal character can't be optimised 24 hours. What you're on about are first impressions, not definitive statements. It took about a year to get Ken's approach game to a good state, and he works just fine in that regard; see takera's stellar gameplay for a showing of that. Human error, movement reads, the usual stuff that, well, gets you hit...this is a fighting game, not a racing game. It's the same way Ryu, Ken, and Terry get in and smack you silly. If you've played a single main of any of these characters that's worth a damn you would absolutely know that these characters close distance well with their efficient ground game. It's not gonna happen on WiFi for obvious reasons: it's all about reaction and careful placement. Maneuvering with a short-ranged character isn't about challenging spacing, but punishing it. These characters will kill you off of one or two combos and that is all they need. If you're camping them, you will eventually make a mistake, because lord knows you're going to develop a pattern and eventually get read into next week.

Watch how Riddles dismantles blacktwins here. It's an early VOD, but we don't have much offline footage of Terry, and it's good reference for Kazuya.

Someone else brought up swords and yeah after playing Cloud and Seph against him uhhhh lol how does he get in

I'm assuming this is WiFi because I have no clue where you're getting this notion from. Swordfighters inherently have less lag, specifically designed to allow a character with shorter range to close distance and punish. Kazuya has many attacks to get in here, not to mention his crouch dash which guards against short hop aerials exceptionally well. Chuck in his disjointed hitboxes and intangibility on various attacks and he's well-guarded enough to deal with this. Like in Tekken, Kazuya is a character centred around punishing whiffs as hard as possible: he needs but one opening. As is the case with any normal game of Smash, these openings will come, you will not play perfectly, not even top players play perfectly. This is a regular game, not a TAS, you need to not confuse the two if you want to make a point.

If you want an example of how an FG character closes distance against swordfighters, there's WiFi set of riddles against Mr. E (not that one) here. It's by no means a wash as you are describing. Again, FG characters do not necessarily struggle against swordfighters, they just require half a brain to get in.

Obviously my experience is not exemplary of top level, but it does not seem like his grounded approach is good enough to make up for his less than stellar aerial one, makes stuffing his ass pretty easy + been watching early top level gameplay and while it is early, it still doesn't reassure me

It's been just over a day bro calm down there ain't no top level gameplay

Have you looked at his burst options at all? His instant dash attack is immensely long and probably one of the best whiff punishes out of the FG cast. I'd put it up there with command Burning Knuckle even if that one's disjointed as all fuck. You're disregarding like, half his burst options here, they're not Terry-tier but they're fine.

I think the wavedash thing will certainly help (esp. after watching Riddles use it), but I don't think plats and air space in general are gonna be fun for this guy

Nah he's fine. Like Terry, he can waveland onto most platforms and make excellent use of that positioning. His combos may be horizontal a lot of the time but ESAM has been doing really well labbing his combo routes.

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1410412489410584580

Besides, EWGF and Twin Pistons are great for putting opponents into forced tech situations on platforms and he can pressure thereafter exceptionally well. Not to mention he has an amazing UAir for juggling and getting safe pressure in from underneath.

--

Rome wasn't built in a week, every character takes forever to optimise. It's not about finding "le funny tech", it's about formulating an effective game plan and finding optimal combo routes. Understanding how a character's attacks come into their approach game is also important, moreso for fighting game characters because you're moving a smaller threat zone around.

I'd love to know what players of FG characters you've fought. Considering you're from Wisconsin I'm pretty sure the only player that you'd fight is Parappa, but they haven't paid much attention to these characters since what, early-2020? I truly don't think you've got any offline experience considering what's being said. Unreactable burst is awful online, so I get why you'd say this stuff, but I'm not sure where the bravado is coming from in that case.

 

[Abbey Street]

man what is stopping me from circle camping his ass LOL

Circle camping isn’t a good strategy against anyone, nevermind Kazuya. You’re making a conscious choice to sacrifice stage control, giving the opponent free reign to take advantage of what little ability you now have to approach neutral in a non-linear fashion. This is how people lose to Ganondorf, and it’s likely going to be the same in Kazuya’s case.

 

[Violet]

First of all I never once said anything about definitive statements LOL
Were some statements bold sure! I think that's not criminal
Never said take my word as gospel, these are indeed simply first impressions, and the first impression is he ain't special
I never once said to not give the character time or acted like he was done developing, saying otherwise to argue it is really just straw manning
I literally said I'm gonna wait and see how effective crouch dash is, it certainly should be something to look out for/see how well it can be optimized
And again uh
I would never use my own experience as the highest form of resources to pull from
Never claimed I was a top player, so I'm using what little top player resources we currently have to form my opinion
Can I use some of my own wifi play to see how some shit operates, yeah I think that's fine
As long as I'm not claiming it's top level gameplay to feast your eyes on I don't really think it's a problem

Do I think camping is gonna be good against him, yeah
I think that current fg players being able to beat camp doesn't mean that the characters don't struggle against defensive play
Of course once they get it they'll dish out damage, but getting in itself is the obvious hurdle
As I already said, very interested to see how people utilize wavedash, think it will end up being a very good tool to zonebreak seeing how Riddles is already using it
He's a character you don't want touching you ever so a defensive neutral is something I would prefer given that challenging this mans normals doesnt look fun
Do I think he has some range to ease an otherwise stubby kit, yes, his burst range is fantastic, I never said otherwise lol
Idk side b startup, but endlag definitely harsh enough to not go for it often, high risk high reward shit that you throw out occasionally maybe?

Things that I thing have cool potential for growth are djc combo routes, been seeing some stuff w them that seem interesting + they're obv high damage, this character has rlly good combo travel distance so he can get you offstage pretty quick

Dj waveland on plats is like solid, uairs def good, hits p good in front to weirdly, but I think his overall air mobility will still hurt him in the air
The short first jump I personally think might hinder juggles
Still doesn't have disjoints in that domain, I think him chasing people airborne and landing will both be flaws

Finally uh yeah, just first impressions lol, like the formatting of this is very stream of consciousness if you could not tell
Feel free to wait and see I am not telling you to do otherwise
In return pls don't straw man me :3

 

[nya]

[09:14] #Vio͜͡let: i just need someone in that thread to call me shit at the game and invalidate me

this dude do kinda have a point tho... violet kinda bad...

 

[The Masked Guest]

Okay time to finally say something after waiting 4 or so minutes: if you've been in the Smash room, good chance you know me already, but if not then im The Masked Guest

Never touched 64 or Melee and even though I had Brawl and Smash 3ds, I was way too young to comprehend the game so I really just ended up mashing Kirby down b or Lucas up smash or some shit

I got Ultimate digitally on launch day and now have like 2,000 or so hours on it, prob making it my most played game ever (even if it's not my favorite). I was in a character crisis for a long time and eventually settled on Inkling, until 2019 when Hero released. Currently I main Hero, although I also play Inkling, Pyra / Mythra pretty often, also Meta Knight and Dedede (although a bit less than the others)

For Kazuya, I absolutely despise playing as him and I'll probably hate playing against him too thanks to his absurd damage output. I don't have a set guess on where he'll fall on the tier list right now, could be anywhere from low tier to high tier I'd say. I'll wait for the "DLC hype" to settle and for top players to stop posting day 1, 2, now 3 twitter clips before deciding what I think. I'm not too impressed so far but that could very easily change.

 

[KrookKing]

Heard a convo so I might as well speak. Good Afternoon where I am, KrookKing here. Played Smash since the 1 time I went to a friends house and they had Brawl when I was 10 but never got into Smash till getting my first 3DS when I was 14. Never played 64 or Melee, played Mario in Brawl though that was only because I knew who Mario was and not the others, on the 3DS I was a Zelda main till random gave me my go-to for the rest of my days (Till Sceptile comes out please Sakurai) Though it´s ¨The wrong way¨ to play someone I dont mind it too much. I also main Pyra but shes more of a backfoot compared to the Lizard.

About the new guy Kazuya, honestly hes just, alright. His damage output is interesting and seeing his D-Tilt stop a Blitz made me cry. His 2nd jump and recovery is cool and such as well. Unfortunately Kazis suffering from the ¨DLC Hype¨ syndrome. Also a 46% jab is cool and all but its easily escapable from what I have heard I see him being high tier at best, though I can say he does look cool and got shield pressure I guess?

 

[Eli]

yeah I'm Morytha I'm here to laugh at vio and stuff!!!

I'm a fantastic shulk main who has been to a total of one (1) local and went 2-2 but I don't use the guy online because I hate how he feels. Instead I play literally anyone else in the game but mostly Marth (I swear dancing blade is good ask Violet and The Masked Guest about kill percent on it).

I started in brawl at like 12 as a dirty casual who liked Marth and Ike (yes I was a fan of swords). Then went on to smash 4 and got good, started out maining Shulk and Marth then went on to be a Marth/Cloud main (yes I was still a fan of swords). Then finally came smash 6 where I main Shulk like I said but mostly do Marth online (yes I am still a fan of swords).

It is too early for me to care about how good Kazuya (he's Kiryu now, look at that white alt) is. He's funny and epic with a wack cpu that does footstool stuff for some reason. I like him that's all that really matters for now.

I modified the Kazuya art

 

[Morsel]

I think that Kazuya kinda sucks.

He has mediocre ground mobility, predictable burst options, terrible air mobility, and an inability to pressure from different angles (or even in the air at all) due to his low first jump height. This means that his approach is super predictable, which makes counterplay easier. His disadvantage is also atrocious due to his large size, bad airspeed, and lack of combo breakers. His out-of-shield game is also poor, meaning he struggles against characters with faster frame data. His recovery is also super mediocre since his UpB has no hitbox later on in the move, so he is super vulnerable to edgeguarding. His 10-hit combo is trivially easy to SDI out of; it's more of a meme than anything.

I main Mr. Game and Watch and ROB, and the matchup is super simple for both. As G&W, I out-frame data him up close and can easily combo/juggle him to shit. He's also super easy for me to edgeguard, and I can just UpB if he gets too close. I also completely outrange him and can low-profile a lot of his moves by crouching.

As ROB, he pretty much can't play the game since he isn't fast enough nor has the jump/aerial mobility to get around Laser and Gyro. Even up close, Down Tilt does well, and again offstage he gets destroyed.

He's a character that has a lot going for him in theory, but falls flat in practice.

 

[Boat]

I don't post in off-topic forums much, but this is important to me and I want to talk about it.

For those of you unfamiliar, Project+ is a balance patch of Project M, which is a fan mod of Brawl. It has been subject to many, many years of Nintendo and event organizers trying to mitigate its presence at national events, but this is the furthest Nintendo has gone. Last winter, Nintendo issued a cease and desist to The Big House Online, a tournament they have previously sponsored and endorsed. Riptide is a new tournament series that has never been affiliated with Nintendo.

Riptide is the first major tournament since the "end" of quarantine. It reached its attendance cap within minutes, and then did it again after getting more venue space. It's easily going to be one of the biggest events of the year, alongside Mainstage and Low Tide City. Nearly 400 people signed up for Project+, making it the largest Project+ (not Project M) tournament since the release of the game. While many players were prepared for the possibility that it would be canceled as a potential superspreader event, those concerns were addressed early on with the TOs saying that canceling the event would financially ruin them and that they cannot cancel. This, however, was not expected at all.

The event is in two weeks, and pass transfers (selling your attendance pass to someone else) closed yesterday. The timing for Nintendo to get this event canceled could not have been better for causing as much difficulty and pain for the community. Everyone has their flights booked, everyone has their hotel room reserved, and nobody can sell their pass anymore. I can only assume they did it this late to try to teach us a lesson and send a message.

I cannot exaggerate how badly the Project+ community is hurting right now. For a lot of players, including myself, Riptide was the light at the end of the tunnel. We'd finally get to see our friends, play on CRTs, and have real competition. I know the Riptide Project+ organizers personally, and they're utterly heartbroken. Alongside all the frustration and anger that goes along with the Riptide bracket being forcibly canceled, this sets a precedent that is really scaring a lot of the scene. Signing up, making travel plans, getting hotel reservations, and taking time off work or school to attend a major is a very intimidating prospect on its own, but it's a lot worse when you know that your favorite event could be canceled two weeks before the event.

This cancellation is affecting me pretty heavily. Beyond the financial factors (what am I gonna do with this $300 plane ticket to Cleveland?), this event meant so much to me. I've spent the entirety of quarantine grinding netplay events. I've improved massively, and I was so ready to do well at my first major since Low Tier City 6 (2018). It was a big source of frustration for me that there was a massive disparity between the quality of my best offline win (Ka-Master / Yata) and my best online win (Kumatora / Flarp / Mr. Watch and Learn), since online events don't really count or matter in the eyes of most Project+ players, including myself. Even beyond that, over quarantine, I was finally able to get introduced to the greater PM scene. I got my start with Smash in Alaska, and moved to Montana. Neither scene is particularly connected at the national level. But over quarantine, I made so many really excellent friends that I could have not been more excited to meet and play, and that's gone now.

This is all made worse by the fact that Nintendo stands to gain nothing by getting this event canceled; Brawl was released in 2008, and online servers for that game were shut down ages ago. Even if you ignore the fact that most Project+ events are ran with legally purchased Brawl discs, there is just no world where Project+ is hurting Nintendo financially. Project+ even actively helps Nintendo via controller purchases and cross-game entrants with Ultimate. Project+ and the Smash scene as a whole gave up on the hope of Nintendo properly supporting us (like a developer should) when they cease and desisted Big House. We just want to be left the fuck alone so we can play the games we love.

This isn't a call to action or anything, I just needed to talk about this because I'm devastated and I thought the Smash Bros. thread would be an appropriate place to do it. I'm still thinking of attending Riptide because I'm not sure if I can get a refund on my flight, and I still want to meet the homies who are still going, but so many people are canceling their flights that it's going to be impossible to attend the event without it being soured by what could have been.

Fuck Nintendo.

 

[Candy Corn]

I don't post in off-topic forums much, but this is important to me and I want to talk about it.

For those of you unfamiliar, Project+ is a balance patch of Project M, which is a fan mod of Brawl. It has been subject to many, many years of Nintendo and event organizers trying to mitigate it's presence at national events, but this is the furthest Nintendo has gone. Last winter, Nintendo issued a cease and desist to The Big House Online, a tournament they have previously sponsored and endorsed. Riptide is a new tournament series that has never been affiliated with Nintendo.

Riptide is the first major tournament since the "end" of quarantine. It reached its attendance cap within minutes, and then did it again after getting more venue space. It's easily going to be one of the biggest events of the year, alongside Mainstage and Low Tide City. Nearly 400 people signed up for Project+, making it the largest Project+ (not Project M) tournament since the release of the game. While many players were prepared for the possibility that it would be canceled as a potential superspreader event, those concerns were addressed early on with the TOs saying that canceling the event would financially ruin them and that they cannot cancel. This, however, was not expected at all.

View attachment 367955

The event is in two weeks, and pass transfers (selling your attendance pass to someone else) closed yesterday. The timing for Nintendo to get this event canceled could not have been better for causing as much difficulty and pain for the community. Everyone has their flights booked, everyone has their hotel room reserved, and nobody can sell their pass anymore. I can only assume they did it this late to try to teach us a lesson and send a message.

I cannot exaggerate how badly the Project+ community is hurting right now. For a lot of players, including myself, Riptide was the light at the end of the tunnel. We'd finally get to see our friends, play on CRTs, and have real competition. I know the Riptide Project+ organizers personally, and they're utterly heartbroken. Alongside all the frustration and anger that goes along with the Riptide bracket being forcibly canceled, this sets a precedent that is really scaring a lot of the scene. Signing up, making travel plans, getting hotel reservations, and taking time off work or school to attend a major is a very intimidating prospect on its own, but it's a lot worse when you know that your favorite event could be canceled two weeks before the event.

This cancellation is affecting me pretty heavily. Beyond the financial factors (what am I gonna do with this $300 plane ticket to Cleveland?), this event meant so much to me. I've spent the entirety of quarantine grinding netplay events. I've improved massively, and I was so ready to do well at my first major since Low Tier City 6 (2018). It was a big source of frustration for me that there was a massive disparity between the quality of my best offline win (Ka-Master / Yata) and my best online win (Kumatora / Flarp / Mr. Watch and Learn), since online events don't really count or matter in the eyes of most Project+ players, including myself. Even beyond that, over quarantine, I was finally able to get introduced to the greater PM scene. I got my start with Smash in Alaska, and moved to Montana. Neither scene is particularly connected at the national level. But over quarantine, I made so many really excellent friends that I could have not been more excited to meet and play, and that's gone now.

This is all made worse by the fact that Nintendo stands to gain nothing by getting this event canceled; Brawl was released in 2008, and online servers for that game were shut down ages ago. Even if you ignore the fact that most Project+ events are ran with legally purchased Brawl discs, there is just no world where Project+ is hurting Nintendo financially. Project+ even actively helps Nintendo via controller purchases and cross-game entrants with Ultimate. Project+ and the Smash scene as a whole gave up on the hope of Nintendo properly supporting us (like a developer should) when they cease and desisted Big House. We just want to be left the fuck alone so we can play the games we love.

This isn't a call to action or anything, I just needed to talk about this because I'm devastated and I thought the Smash Bros. thread would be an appropriate place to do it. I'm still thinking of attending Riptide because I'm not sure if I can get a refund on my flight, and I still want to meet the homies who are still going, but so many people are canceling their flights that it's going to be impossible to attend the event without it being soured by what could have been.

Fuck Nintendo.

Yeah I heard about this today. Personally I suggest you still attend the event as the alternative of not going sounds like the lesser of the choices. There are still people there to meet, and good times to be had. As seen from the melee community, the fans will continue to push for representation despite Nintendo. Project M will be the same way. The biggest problem with this is how it affects all those people financially. Though, if you already planned on going then you should do it. Being around a community of people that will share your frustrations and sympathize with you should do you good.

 

[Isa]

From a past Melee TO:
Fuck Nintendo.

Sorry to hear about your hardships Boat. Nintendo's vision for the game and the series is nonsensical at best and actively spiteful at worst. We similarly had to cancel PM events at BEAST 7 to ensure we'd get Nintendo's blessing. It's awful.

 

[KrookKing]

Oh dear, im so sorry for everyone involved

 

[Boat]

I've ended up deciding to go to Riptide. A lot of my friends are still going, and I still want to meet them. I also want to play P+ out of spite. I had big "fuck nintendo long live P+" energy this weekend, and ended up editing an entire combo video in one day. I'm really hopeful that the event will still be worthwhile. On the bright side, I guess I'll have more time on Friday to hang out with people.

I want to talk a bit more about the implications this cancellation has for future majors. Following the cancellation of The Big House Online last December, the Smash community organized an event called "Five Days Of Melee", which featured a couple sections about Project+. Additionally, several major TOs gave public promises that the next edition of their event would include Project+. With the hope of being included at nationals on the horizon, I can't exaggerate how much of a gut-punch the Riptide cancellation was. Project+ community leader Sabre wrote an article discussing how the community reacted to this news. Currently, everyone is worried about the upcoming majors. The upcoming majors featuring P+ are Mainstage, Low Tide City, and Blacklisted. The community is really, really worried about Mainstage and Low Tide City.

Mainstage is an event held by the Beyond The Summit team, which means that all eyes are on it. Low Tide City (aka Low Tier City, just in a water park) is an event with similar status to Smash N' Splash / Riptide; they've purposefully avoided seeking out Nintendo endorsement so that they could run P+ in past years. Both those events are really risky to sign up for, especially since LTC is in Texas.

Blacklisted is a P+ exclusive major that most people believe will be safe from Nintendo legal threat. It's not nearly as large as the other two events, and it doesn't feature Melee or Ultimate. If Blacklisted receives legal notice, then I genuinely don't know what will happen going forward.

The biggest fear is that Project+ will have to permanently return to our status as always being a side-event at majors, restricted to hush-hush events that happen in hotel rooms. It's possible we'll have to do some trial-and-error with what Nintendo will and will not take action against. It's possible that going forward, we'll only be able to run events like Blacklisted that don't feature other games. What an upsetting timeline to end up in after the hope given to us by Five Days of Melee.

edit : lol fuck nintendo

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1433172072545521665

 

[Plague von Karma]

So Sora has been out for a while and I'm pretty sure he's settled into the cast now. However, I haven't really heard much about him, despite being pretty deep into the Smash-sphere. Maybe it's because I withdrew from Twitter and never really interacted with the resultant SmashCord.

Inclusion-wise, it was inevitable. The people who ranted about him being out of Nintendo's reach were disingenuous at best, we're talking a company that can run on a deficit for 38 years and live. It's among the richest companies of all time, the amount of wealth in its tank is frankly disgusting. Disney was and always will be within its corporate reach, Nintendo can get anything. Sora is one of the more influential characters in the RPG sphere, is obnoxiously popular, and, as we saw, the true winner of the Smash Bros. Ballot. With Smash now framing itself as a celebration of gaming, Sora was a shoe-in and absolutely one of the most fitting, beautiful endings to the DLC roster.

Competitively, though? Again, not heard too much. He has those cool NAir loops but every player I've fought gets them right for the first stock and then proceeds to choke the rest of the game. He has some amazing tools, though, like...that DSmash makes the people who demanded his inclusion on Twitter for the past few years look reasonable. I don't think Sora's fallen off or anything, I'm probably just very uninformed.

I've noticed some pretty significant Steve complaints after Tweek lost to DDog. People are apparently calling for bans on Twitter? What? In the FGC this type of thing would be celebrated. Meh. I guess it's just the topic of the week.

Also, a cool Steve counterplay tweet someone posted in my Discord, really like this;

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1470809735586795527