Would you participate in a Garchomp-less Test Tourney?

Would you participate in an OU tournament that banned Garchomp?

  • Yes.

    Votes: 95 73.6%

  • No.

    Votes: 34 26.4%
  • Total voters
    129
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CLegacyM

Would you participate in a tournament that banned Garchomp from standard play as a test to see how the OU environment would fare without the Landshark?

Very simple yes or no answer.

This is just being put up as a poll because of the recent outbreak in arguments as to whether or not Garchomp should be banned from OU or not. I say banned because it's pretty clear that he wouldn't fit in well with the Uber metagame***, but the question still remains: is he too strong for OU?

So, answer the poll with a yes or no. You can discuss the tournament here.

It would likely be a big Swiss style tournament (meaning not a single or double elimination, so even if you lose you will stay in the tournament till the end).

***I say this because the question shouldn't be whether or not Garchomp can compete in the Uber metagame. This is an isolated question as to whether or not Garchomp is too powerful for OU. Just because something is too strong to fit in with the OU metagame doesn't mean it has to be able to compete at the Uber level. SO, don't try and argue that Garchomp belongs in OU because it isn't as strong as other Ubers.
 
I have to wonder how well an Uber-testing tourney works in this reverse kind of fashion, but I'm all for it I guess.
 
If we got enough people into this, it'd pretty sweet seeing all the diversity in the teams that people would be able to play competitively.

Not to mention FLYGON.
 
So what would be the point of this tournament exactly? To see how the metagame changes without Garchomp around? So a basic prediction would guess that Garchomp substitutes like Salamence or Dragonite would increase, Garchomp specific counters would decrease(mainly Cress) and overall defensive teams would have it easier with less threats to counter.

I just don't see how this applies to Garchomp staying in OU or not. Garchomp's current success in OU should be the primary factor in moving it up or not, although the statistics are rather skewed since Garchomp is so widely used. It is more difficult to test whether Garchomp forces the OU game to center around itself, although a number of OU pokemon do the same thing (Blissey causes nearly all sweepers to carry a physical attack, no physical wall is nearly as effective.)
 
It will be a tournament that just helps design and environment for people to play in without the threat of Garchomp being there. Meaning when they make their teams they don't have to take Garchomp into account. So teams will be vastly different in their construction and it will show whether or not Garchomp really overcentralizes the metagame.
 
Points:
1) To see how much change does the tournament differ without Garchomp, one of the most overused Pokemon. Also, without its 180 Powered Outrage.
2) How much less valuable is a Sandstorm Team without its biggest Veil abuser.
3) How much can Flygon take Garchomp's place without haxing misses with Sand Veil.
4) How people can worry less about CB Ice Sharders.

If you're thinking of Salamence: It CAN be Thunder Waved; it has LESS defense than Garchomp; and it does NOT have Sand Veil hax.
 
look! A Garchomp!


Go Cresselia! Garchomp now needs to Outrage to threatan Cress at all, and in that case i'd just switch in Skarmory.

Thats my way of dealing with it at least.



Garchomp isn't so bad. Its horribly destructive, but then its a dragon. If you REALLY hate it, stick Ice Beam / HP Ice on all your pokemon.
 
yeah i dont use him frequently, he's not that broken and centralizing, tourneys are fun =)
 
1059860 said:
So what can Skarmory do to Garchomp other than at most whirlwind it away?
Click to expand...

Skarm uses its massive special attacks and slaughters it with hp ice[/sarcasm]

Garchomp is really not broken celebi owns it. =) as does cresselia and slwobro.
 
72% with Brightpowder. And if they have substitute they can make it a 7/10 * 7/10 * 7/10 * 7/10.

What does that leave you with? A 24% chance to win. I don't consider those good odds.

Fair odds if you ask me.
 
Blue Harvest said:
Thats an 80% chance of winning.
Click to expand...

So it's still relied a bit on luck. 80% chance of killing Garchomp, not winning.
Plus, so you wall one turn of Garchomp's lock to Outrage, then it switches out or just SD again, what now? Cresselia's Charge Beam doesn't work either so you have to get the Calm Mind kind too...
1 SD = Pain
2 SD = Death
And remember, Garchomp can switch out anyday, and can easily switch into many attacks, unlike Salamence, since this thing is far more bulkier. You also have to worry about keeping your counter alive just to take it down. And if at late game where there's only 1 Pokemon left--Garchomp, Whirlwind on Skarmory doesn't even work, leaving Garchomp for free SD, taking small damages from Brave Bird or Drill Peck. Also just a reminder, Garchomp can carry Fire Fang.

For Cresselia, either take it out earlier in the game or sub, SD, Outrage, or just simple SD/Outrage.

Hopefully when you try to counter this megashark you don't miss either, giving this base 102 spd, 130 attack a free turn to set up SD, Sub or just simple an attack that either takes away half of your HP or kills it.
 
Blue Harvest said:
look! A Garchomp!


Go Cresselia! Garchomp now needs to Outrage to threatan Cress at all, and in that case i'd just switch in Skarmory.
Click to expand...

Cresselia is gonna cry its little duck tears after taking 52% min (if you use a Modest nature and want to OHKO Chomp) from CBChomp Crunch. Thats a very reliable 2hko WITHOUT Sandstorm. If its sandstorm then ROFL your Cresselia is nigh-worthless.
 
You people seem to forget about max hp defense suicune, 1 hits chompy easy takes not too much from other attacks other than CB outrage STFU xfrisco

Also xfrisco, what if cresselia had a dark reducing berry? then good bye garch
 
1059860 said:
So it's still relied a bit on luck. 80% chance of killing Garchomp, not winning.

Not if you use Ice Beam or Will-O-Wisp. Although Will-O-Wisp is HORRIBLE is sandstorm.

Plus, so you wall one turn of Garchomp's lock to Outrage, then it switches out or just SD again,

No it just keeps Outraging. 2-3 Turns, so if you predict the Outrage you can bring Skarm in on the first hit. Its not easy, but then Garchomp is rediculously powerful.

what now? Cresselia's Charge Beam doesn't work either so you have to get the Calm Mind kind too...

Cresselia has Ice Beam.

1 SD = Pain
2 SD = Death
And remember, Garchomp can switch out anyday, and can easily switch into many attacks, unlike Salamence, since this thing is far more bulkier. You also have to worry about keeping your counter alive just to take it down. And if at late game where there's only 1 Pokemon left--Garchomp, Whirlwind on Skarmory doesn't even work, leaving Garchomp for free SD, taking small damages from Brave Bird or Drill Peck. Also just a reminder, Garchomp can carry Fire Fang.

Fire Fang 2HKOs even after a Swords Dance.

For Cresselia, either take it out earlier in the game or sub, SD, Outrage, or just simple SD/Outrage.

If it subs, pray Cresselia is 252HP/Defense Bold and that Ice Beam doesn't miss.

Hopefully when you try to counter this megashark you don't miss either, giving this base 102 spd, 130 attack a free turn to set up SD, Sub or just simple an attack that either takes away half of your HP or kills it.

Garchomp is overpowered, but not so much i'd call him uber. He still has counters, or at least "force out" pokes like Weavile and Mamoswine.

Ice Shard Donphan can switch into Garchomp fairly well.
Click to expand...
 
Posting the rough math here again. Obi has pointed out it's not exact, and it isn't, but it gives you the figures you are working with.

You come in on the SD and it has sub.

.7 x .7 x .7 x .7 = .24

So you officially have a 24 % chance of hitting its substitute, unless you are faster. If you are faster you are risking coming in against an attack rather than a swords dance.

At the same time, lets say you hit all four in a row. That means that you have a 15% chance of hitting it on that last attack (where it will obviously be attacking). Are those good odds?

Let's look at it without Brightpowder, even.

.8 x .8 x .8 x .8 = 40%

So a 40% chance of hitting it 4 times in a row without brightpowder, and a 32% chance of hitting it 5 times in a row without brightpowder, meaning it will have gotten enough for another sub if it is holding leftovers, so you would need to hit it 6 times in a row. Which has, wow, a 26% chance of success.

Where are your counters now? Bronzong or Skarmory you say! Great idea. So now every team has to carry Bronzong or Skarmory because of the potential threat that Garchomp poses? If that's not overcentralizing...
 
Pork chop said:
You people seem to forget about max hp defense suicune, 1 hits chompy easy takes not too much from other attacks other than CB outrage STFU xfrisco

Also xfrisco, what if cresselia had a dark reducing berry? then good bye garch
Click to expand...

Please post in the other thread, your arguments are better suited there if you think Garchomp is not broken. There's no reason to to tell people to stfu either, just point out the flaws in their logic.

That dark reducing berry only works once and Garchomp can switch out whenever he wants after using Crunch.

You have a good point though, I also consider Suicune to be the best and practically only reliable Garchomp stopper because its so bulky.

Don't forget though, Suicune only wins if it has 266 SpAtt and even then, its still gotta watchout for +20% evasion.
 
Blue Harvest: Requiring an Ice Shard Donphan to every team to take out Garchomp is the definition of overcentralization.

Weavile / Mamoswine both can't take Earthquakes to switch in, as well as Stone Edge, so they can't be switched in, which means, the previous poke have to die. So basically Garchomp guarentees 1 kill, which is the same as Wobbuffet.

Even if they are in, the Garchomp user can simple switch him out for something like Heracross for Weavile and Cresselia for Mamoswine. And once that counter is down, then Garchomp can be send out again to take 1 more poke down, or he can just send out Garchomp whenever Weavile/Mamoswine aren't on the field, as long as it's a safe switch... It's a cycle of landshark massacre.
 
I think it's funny people cry so hard about Wobbuffet guaranteeing a kill, and then let Garchomp walk all over the place. Is requiring Ice Shard/Beam on everything really so different from U-turn and phazing? Then there's Blissey, which as mentioned requires every Pokémon in the game to carry a Physical attack and also makes status much less relevant. Isn't that the very definition of overcentralization? And if you're worried about Specsmence, well, trash that too. Or not; Steel types are still awesome, I suppose. But at the very least, the same arguments that keep Wobbuffet (and Manaphy) in ubers can quite easily apply to Garchomp and Blissey. Allow them all or ban them all, I say.
~Uiru
 
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