Resource VGC 2018 Viability Rankings

[Gotheru]

First of all, is this VR threat talking about Bo1 Showdown Ladder or Bo3 Official Tournament play? Because it changes a lot the viability of certain Pokémon, I would like to know this.

About Hawlucha... Why are we talking about Hawlucha's viability in OverUsed in a VGC threat? It makes zero sense. The very small niche that Hawlucha has in the VGC metagame is as a support Pokémon, not as a set-up Pokémon like in OU. You can't set up on anything, as this is a doubles-based format, and there are so many threats for Hawlucha and plenty of Pokémon that do its job in a better way.

First of all, this is kinda a tapu-based format. The only Tapu where Hawlucha does something is Tapu Bulu, and it is the least used one. The other tapus just send Hawlucha to another dimension with Thunderbolt on Koko, Psychic or Moonblast on Lele and Moonblast on Fini. Hawlucha literally loses or does nothing against the top 8 Pokémon in PS usage right now (Landorus-T, Tapu Fini, Cresselia, Charizard, Tapu Koko, Aegislash, Zapdos and Tapu Lele), while Intimidate is heavily used in this metagame, so Hawlucha loses the small offensive presence that it has on the field, because if you use Hawlucha you should do it for its typing; if not, you should use Zapdos or even Tailwind Kartana.

Hawlucha doesn't pair well with any tapu right now, or if it does, there are Pokémon that do that job better, so there should be no reason for using Hawlucha.

Aegislash is not banned in VGC, so Hawlucha is not a good pair for Tapu Lele, as it need something that supports it while does good damage against opposing Metagross or Aegislash. Yes, it does "great" damage against steel and dark type Pokémon, which Lele is not good against, but the most used steel type Pokémon are Aegislash and Metagross, so Hawlucha does little against them. If you want an Unburden support with Lele, just use Accelgor, which is pretty nice as it can KO steel types (apart from Aegislash) with Final Gambit, while it can use Acid Spray to do a lot of damage with Tapu Lele.

Tapu Koko does not need the speed control that Hawlucha offers, as it is a very fast Pokémon. However, you may still use that core, as Fighting-Fairy-Electric is a very good combo, I'm not going to say that it isn't, but you will be doing little damage against opposing Landorus-T and Cresselia.

Tapu Fini and Tapu Lele are more comfortable with Zapdos, as it offers a reliable bulky Electric-type Pokémon, which is really rare, to be honest. Here are some calcs with Misty/Psychic Seed Zapdos:

Calcs

• 252+ SpA Ludicolo Hydro Vortex (185 BP) vs. +1 252 HP / 4+ SpD Zapdos in Rain: 135-159 (68.5 - 80.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (Z Hydro Pump)
• 252+ SpA Tapu Koko Gigavolt Havoc (185 BP) vs. +1 252 HP / 4+ SpD Zapdos in Electric Terrain: 138-163 (70 - 82.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (Z Thunder)
• 252+ SpA Tapu Lele Shattered Psyche (175 BP) vs. +1 252 HP / 4+ SpD Zapdos in Psychic Terrain: 163-193 (82.7 - 97.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (Z Psychic)
• 252+ SpA Mega Charizard Y Overheat vs. +1 252 HP / 4+ SpD Zapdos in Sun: 141-166 (71.5 - 84.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
• 252+ SpA Aegislash-Blade Never-Ending Nightmare (160 BP) vs. +1 252 HP / 4+ SpD Zapdos: 109-130 (55.3 - 65.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (Z Shadow Ball)

I'm not going to say that Hawlucha should drop (tho I think so), but it definetely should not rise, is it at Suicune level? I don't think so.

 

[Eisenherz]

First of all, is this VR threat talking about Bo1 Showdown Ladder or Bo3 Official Tournament play? Because it changes a lot the viability of certain Pokémon, I would like to know this.

About Hawlucha... Why are we talking about Hawlucha's viability in OverUsed in a VGC threat? It makes zero sense. The very small niche that Hawlucha has in the VGC metagame is as a support Pokémon, not as a set-up Pokémon like in OU. You can't set up on anything, as this is a doubles-based format, and there are so many threats for Hawlucha and plenty of Pokémon that do its job in a better way.

First of all, this is kinda a tapu-based format. The only Tapu where Hawlucha does something is Tapu Bulu, and it is the least used one. The other tapus just send Hawlucha to another dimension with Thunderbolt on Koko, Psychic or Moonblast on Lele and Moonblast on Fini. Hawlucha literally loses or does nothing against the top 8 Pokémon in PS usage right now (Landorus-T, Tapu Fini, Cresselia, Charizard, Tapu Koko, Aegislash, Zapdos and Tapu Lele), while Intimidate is heavily used in this metagame, so Hawlucha loses the small offensive presence that it has on the field, because if you use Hawlucha you should do it for its typing; if not, you should use Zapdos or even Tailwind Kartana.

Hawlucha doesn't pair well with any tapu right now, or if it does, there are Pokémon that do that job better, so there should be no reason for using Hawlucha.

Aegislash is not banned in VGC, so Hawlucha is not a good pair for Tapu Lele, as it need something that supports it while does good damage against opposing Metagross or Aegislash. Yes, it does "great" damage against steel and dark type Pokémon, which Lele is not good against, but the most used steel type Pokémon are Aegislash and Metagross, so Hawlucha does little against them. If you want an Unburden support with Lele, just use Accelgor, which is pretty nice as it can KO steel types (apart from Aegislash) with Final Gambit, while it can use Acid Spray to do a lot of damage with Tapu Lele.

Tapu Koko does not need the speed control that Hawlucha offers, as it is a very fast Pokémon. However, you may still use that core, as Fighting-Fairy-Electric is a very good combo, I'm not going to say that it isn't, but you will be doing little damage against opposing Landorus-T and Cresselia.

Tapu Fini and Tapu Lele are more comfortable with Zapdos, as it offers a reliable bulky Electric-type Pokémon, which is really rare, to be honest. Here are some calcs with Misty/Psychic Seed Zapdos:

Calcs

• 252+ SpA Ludicolo Hydro Vortex (185 BP) vs. +1 252 HP / 4+ SpD Zapdos in Rain: 135-159 (68.5 - 80.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (Z Hydro Pump)
• 252+ SpA Tapu Koko Gigavolt Havoc (185 BP) vs. +1 252 HP / 4+ SpD Zapdos in Electric Terrain: 138-163 (70 - 82.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (Z Thunder)
• 252+ SpA Tapu Lele Shattered Psyche (175 BP) vs. +1 252 HP / 4+ SpD Zapdos in Psychic Terrain: 163-193 (82.7 - 97.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (Z Psychic)
• 252+ SpA Mega Charizard Y Overheat vs. +1 252 HP / 4+ SpD Zapdos in Sun: 141-166 (71.5 - 84.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
• 252+ SpA Aegislash-Blade Never-Ending Nightmare (160 BP) vs. +1 252 HP / 4+ SpD Zapdos: 109-130 (55.3 - 65.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (Z Shadow Ball)

I'm not going to say that Hawlucha should drop (tho I think so), but it definetely should not rise, is it at Suicune level? I don't think so.

I have to agree with everything that was said about Hawlucha here, and usage stats heavily support that point as well. At this point, I don't think the fact people "haven't discovered it" can be brought as an argument for how little it's used, when something like Accelgor has been on the heavy rise as an Unburden partner, while Hawlucha still sits outside top 100 (!) in the usage stats of the last week of S7.

I've attempted using Hawlucha as a Tapu partner a couple of times, but gave up on it pretty quickly. It may be a reliable Tailwind setter, but goes down in 1 hit most of the time despite the Seed boost. As an offensive partner, its damage output is super underwhelming (it has base 92 attack...) and you don't really have much chance to set up with it and become an offensive threat since, again, you go down in 1 hit a lot of the time.

I don't think it's bad per se, but in my opinion, Zapdos, Accelgor and even Drifblim all have more going for them as Seed partners than Hawlucha; Drifblim has some actual bulk and a lot of support tools, though it can tend to be a bit passive, and Accelgor's Acid Spray and Final Gambit options give it a niche no other Pokémon can fill. I would be in favour of dropping Hawlucha one rank, but like Gotheru, I also think it's ok where it is (definitely not in favour of a rise though).

 

[TPO3]

Rankings update

Let's talk about the next B- batch

Gothitelle

Hawlucha

Mega Manectric

Marowak-A

Mimikyu

Nihilego

Ninetales-A

Pheromosa

Right off the bat I'm sure that gothitelle, hawlucha, and mega manectric are due for a rise, as they've proven to be more popular and reliable than other B- mons.

I would agree with the sentiment that Gothitelle and Mega Manectric are due for a rise. Both of them have become essential parts of cores that have their own little niche in the metagame. I've seen a lot of Fini/Steela/MegaMan cores running around on PS and it's honestly a fairly difficult core to break through due to recovery, indimidate, and/or snarl. Hawlucha I'm not as high on, but it's got some interesting support options in Encore and Tailwind, and its ability to do legitimate damage w/ Acrobatics and HJK/Low Kick sets it apart from stuff like Drifblim. But when I look at the mons sitting in B+, I don't think it's quite on the same level. I'd much rather see Mimikyu rise up a little bit due to the lethal core it forms with Snorlax, a built-in focus sash, and diversity in its filler move spot. tl;dr

MegaMan -> B+
Gothitelle -> B+
Mimikyu -> B+
Hawlucha -> B or stay in B-

Side question: With results from Dallas and Oceania pouring in over the last couple of weeks, any chance we'll start discussion on mons that made breakout performances at those tourneys, or are we going to stick to the B- tier for now?

 

[Jibaku]

There are a lot of changes I'd make to this VR but I only have time to cover a few

Mega Kang's performance in events has been close to abysmal, having shown no top cut usage in the past 3 major events. With PBond nerf and the lack of PuP, Kang is now merely an offensive support mega more than a huge damage threat in itself. It's still one of the best neutral megas in the game (in terms of matchups), but it seems to lack super standout strengths. I'd drop it to A-

Tyranitar should rise to either A or A+ due the amount of utility, damage, and flexibility it brings to a team. It has incredibly inconvenient weaknesses but fits into virtually every archetype due to how much it can perform (weather neutralizer, TR sweeper, occasional TR check, general tank to a lot of things because it has a ton of stats, Dragon Dance sweeper, AV, Scarf, etc)

Celesteela lacks the ability to really pressure things and that's enough of a reason to move it down to B+.

Porygon2 is criminally low in this VR. It has solid advantages over other Trick Roomers, such as the lack of weakness to Ghost and Dark and possessing a considerable amount of damage output thanks to having a decent SpA stat and Download (which seems to give more SpA boosts in this format than it did in the last one). It does suffer from the increase in Knock Off usage (so does Cress though), but with its incredible bulk and recovery it can still set up TR with consistency.

Mega Latias needs to be placed somewhere (B or B+). It sets itself apart from Cresselia thanks to its Fire and Electric resistances, and sports a much higher SpA, while it sets itself apart from Mega Salamence due to its Electric resistance and lack of quad Ice weakness. The aforementioned traits give Latias an edge over a variety of weather based teams and it can reliably set up Tailwinds or Calm Minds throughout a match.

Kommo-O is too low for a Pokemon that's a cornerstone of a very dangerous archetype (Kommo-O/Whimsi/Gengar). It's lack of super strong finishes is the only thing keeping it from reaching the A ranks so B+ should be good for now.

Incineroar is one of the best Fire types in the game and is at least a B+

Other quick noms bc I don't have time to go through this:

Rises:
Mega Camerupt from Unranked to B
Tapu Bulu from B+ to A-
Exca from B to B+
Azu from B to B+
Whimsi from B to B+
Gothitelle from B- to B+
Manectric from B- to B+
Mimikyu from B- to B
Entei from C+ to B-
Raichu from C+ to B-
Rotom-W from C+ to B
Mega Charizard X from C- to B-

Drops:
Heatran from A+ to A
Mega Gardevoir from B+ to B
Arcanine from B to C+
Gastrodon from B to B-
Kingdra from B to B-
Hawlucha from B- to C+
Ninetales-A from B- to C

 

[Pyritie]

Rankings update

Mega Kangaskhan: A+ -> A-

Mega Gardevoir: B+ -> B

Azumarill: B -> B+

Mega Camerupt: UR -> B

Tapu Bulu: B+ -> A-

Incineroar: B -> B+

Gothitelle: B- -> A-

Tyranitar: A- -> A

Mega Tyranitar: UR -> B+

Mega Manectric: B- -> B+

Porygon2: B- -> B+

Porygon-Z: B- -> C

Kommo-o: B -> B+

Celesteela: A- -> B+

Arcanine: B -> C+

Raichu: C+ -> B-

Rotom-W: C+ -> B-

Sylveon: B- -> C

Mimikyu: B- -> B

Ninetales-A: B- -> C+

Mega Charizard X: C- -> C+

Bisharp: C -> C-

Blaziken: C+ -> C

Terrakion: C+ -> C-

Garchomp: C+ -> C-

Hariyama: C -> C-

Nidoking: C- -> C+

Nidoqueen: C- -> C

Heatran: A+ -> A

Mega Gyarados: C -> C+

Mega Latias: UR -> B+

Thundurus: B- -> C+

deleted a bunch of hot garbage

I think the rankings are mostly cleaned up now. Feel free to post about whatever, but good replays and event showings will help your nomination significantly

My own nominations are for tyranitar to A+ as well, and for amoonguss to go from A- to A.

 

[Gotheru]

I want to make some nominations after the Oceania Internacional Challenge, where it has been shown how viable certain Pokémon are, such as Tapu Koko, Tapu Lele Mega Metagross or Tyranitar, which have demonstrated how good they are; and Mega Kangkaskhan or Hydreigon, with 2 and 0 appearances in Top 32.

Rises:

From A to A+
Tapu Koko has proved to be one of the best Pokémon in the metagame. It really benefits from the Charizard-Y, Zapdos and Kommo-o rise in usage. Its speed tier is fantastic, paired up with Volt Switch to get a lot of momentum (really important in this metagame).
The worst thing about Tapu Koko is that it is really vulnerable to Landorus-T, the most used and best Pokémon in the metagame, so that would be the main reason for not to rise Tapu Koko. There are other reasons for not getting the rise, such as the terrain war with Tapu Lele, as Tapu Koko's damage output without Electric Terrain is really poor; or the rise in usage of grass-type Pokémon, such as Amoonguss or Tapu Bulu (Ferrothorn is dropping in usage); and weather, as either Ludicolo in rain or Excadrill in sand threaten Tapu Koko with a Z-move or a supper effective move.

From A to A+
What should I say about Tapu Lele. It is one of the best special attackers in the format, if not the best. It can work as a Choice Scarf attacker to damage at early-game or to sweep at late-game; or a Z-move user so the opponent has to pick one if doesn't have a bulky steel-type or a dark-type. It benefits from the Tyranitar rise in usage, and also from the Amoonguss one too.
But Mega Metagross is rising in usage as hell, so that would be the main reason for this Pokémon to not rise.

From B+ to A/A+
Rain is decreasing its usage, Charizard-Y is rising, Mega Gengar is rising... What do you lose by using Mega Tyranitar? People would think that Mega Tyranitar is worse than normal Tyranitar, but I don't think like that. Non-mega Tyranitar is used when you have a really bad Gothitelle/Cresselia matchup (Z-Crunch) or you want to use it Scarf, which is not the best Tyranitar set. Mega Tyranitar is bulkier than baby Tyranitar, and that is really important. It is also much faster and gets 30 base points in attack. I'm not saying that normal Tyranitar is bad or something, I think they are used in different scenarios.
After the IC, I think that Hitmontop, Kommo-o and Scrafty (specially the last one) are going to rise in usage, as we have seen that Mega Tyranitar and Mega Metagross are really good Pokémon right now, so that hurts a little bit, but with proper team support, such as Tapu Lele, Landorus-T and Zapdos, this is da goat.

From A to A+
I agree with the Tyranitar rise. Both the mega and the baby are really good Pokémon right now, and the Z-Crunch set is really scary after a Dragon Dance. It is similar from the Mega's reasons, so I won't repeat myself.

Create S subranks (like in OU's VR)

From A+ to S-/S
This Pokémon is da goat itself. You could think that Landorus-T's usage is really high for this Pokémon to do something, but Metagross has Clear Body, and if you are clever with the Mega/No-mega 50/50s you can avoid Intimidate, and answer with an Ice Punch.
This Pokémon is so unpredictable. It always runs Iron Head and Protect, but you never know if it has Zen Headbutt, Stomping Tantrum or Ice Punch (it could even learn Thunder Punch or Hammer Arm). You can't ever prepare for all its sets, which was the main reason for its ban in the OU tier, and it happens the same in VGC. The only Pokémon that can take with ease is Celesteela, and that Pokémon can't do much in return.
Mega Metagross had approximately 30% usage at Top 32 in the IC, and that really surprises me, as I thought it would have more.

I would like to see more discussion on these nominations. I will also do other nominations that I won't explain because I don't have time enough for today.

From A- to A

From A- to A

From B+ to A-/A

From C+ to B-

From C+ to B-

From B+ to B/B-

From C+ to C-

Edit: I was stalking poor proman and I saw this so I had to put it here lolol

Edit 2: Drop Kangaskhan out of this dimension

 

[cirhrad]

Hitmontop From D to C+/B-
I think hitmontop was forgotten when this list was made. It has one of the best ability in VGC intimidate and has access to strong supportive moves ( like fake out, feint, helping hand, wide guard). It has a good matchup against picks like lando, ttar, Snorlax, stakatana, ferrothorn. It can also carry the fightium z item which threaten one hit kos on alot of things:

252+ Atk Hitmontop All-Out Pummeling (190 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Heatran: 218-260 (110.1 - 131.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252+ Atk Hitmontop All-Out Pummeling (190 BP) vs. 252 HP / 188+ Def Snorlax: 290-344 (108.6 - 128.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252+ Atk Hitmontop Close Combat vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Heatran: 174-206 (104.1 - 123.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252+ Atk Hitmontop All-Out Pummeling (190 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Porygon: 170-204 (98.8 - 118.6%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO

252+ SpA Tapu Fini Moonblast vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Hitmontop: 134-158 (85.3 - 100.6%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7vgc2018-705386866

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7vgc2018-704402722

(also good with pinch berry, eject button)

 

[Gotheru]

Yeah, I kinda agree with the Hitmontop nomination, it should at least be ranked. It has tons of good sets: 50% Berry, Z-Move, Eject Button... I think we might put it in B- and then rise its tier if we see it's getting better.

From C+ to B
As we have seen in Malmö, Mega Charizard X has a lot of potential, and now even more as Tapu Koko is rising higher and higher in usage. A week ago or so I said it should be B-, but I was completely wrong, it has to be higher. There are a lot of TR teams without Landorus-Therian that are being used nowadays, and without Charizard's major threat, it's really difficult towards impossible to stop this monster. It also benefits from the Mega Metagross rise in usage, as you can wall its standard set (Ice Punch, Iron Head and Stomping Tantrum) in its non-mega form, while it also survive a terrain-boosted Zen Headbutt when you are mega. Other Pokémon that is rising is Tapu Bulu (it makes sense with Tyranitar, Tapu Koko, Tapu Fini and Landorus with high usage), and this Pokémon can't touch Mega Charizard X. The only counterplay to Mega Charizard if you don't have Landorus-T, is to click X

From B+ to A-
I can't explain why is this Pokémon is good, but it is insanely good indeed. It doesn't make sense that while having Landorus-Therian, Tyranitar and Tapu Fini in the format, this Pokémon can do such a good work in battle. It can support really well its teammates with Fake Out and offensive presence. It doesn't need Snarl imo, because your opponent has to attack this Pokémon because it deals tons of damage (Low Kick, Knock Off and Flare Blitz make really good coverage, as the only Pokémon that takes no damage from them are Tapu Fini, Azumarill and Kommo-o), and while it's not direct support, it's indirect support. GothLax is rising in popularity, and Incineroar deals with that really well with that combo.

Incineroar is making other fire-types presence really mediocre. Heatran is becoming worse because it doesn't gain momentum, something really important in the metagame; Entei isn't used that much, as it is really weak to Psychic (as having a fire-type + psychic-resist in the same slot is really good, that is why Heatran and Incineroar are used); Arcanine is no Pokémon in this metagame, and I can't think of other non-mega fire-type threats.

Incineroar is indeed the perfect glue for any team, and it should rise to the A ranks.

 

[TPO3]

I want to make some nominations after the Oceania Internacional Challenge, where it has been shown how viable certain Pokémon are, such as Tapu Koko, Tapu Lele Mega Metagross or Tyranitar, which have demonstrated how good they are; and Mega Kangkaskhan or Hydreigon, with 2 and 0 appearances in Top 32.

Rises:

From A to A+
Tapu Koko has proved to be one of the best Pokémon in the metagame. It really benefits from the Charizard-Y, Zapdos and Kommo-o rise in usage. Its speed tier is fantastic, paired up with Volt Switch to get a lot of momentum (really important in this metagame).
The worst thing about Tapu Koko is that it is really vulnerable to Landorus-T, the most used and best Pokémon in the metagame, so that would be the main reason for not to rise Tapu Koko. There are other reasons for not getting the rise, such as the terrain war with Tapu Lele, as Tapu Koko's damage output without Electric Terrain is really poor; or the rise in usage of grass-type Pokémon, such as Amoonguss or Tapu Bulu (Ferrothorn is dropping in usage); and weather, as either Ludicolo in rain or Excadrill in sand threaten Tapu Koko with a Z-move or a supper effective move.

I'm on-board with this nomination. Electrium Z/Life Orb Koko have been a top-notch threat since pretty much the beginning of the season, and the ability to Volt Switch for chip damage while simultaneously setting it up to win the terrain war is a strength that none of the other tapus can claim. In addition, I think Koko's versatility as a pokemon is finally starting to show. Fast Dual Screens, and Sky Drop/Electroweb support sets are starting to run around a little more and seeing results (i.e. Ashton Cox top 8ing Oceania). It's more than the one-trick pony many people saw it as at the beginning of the season.

From B+ to A/A+
Rain is decreasing its usage, Charizard-Y is rising, Mega Gengar is rising... What do you lose by using Mega Tyranitar? People would think that Mega Tyranitar is worse than normal Tyranitar, but I don't think like that. Non-mega Tyranitar is used when you have a really bad Gothitelle/Cresselia matchup (Z-Crunch) or you want to use it Scarf, which is not the best Tyranitar set. Mega Tyranitar is bulkier than baby Tyranitar, and that is really important. It is also much faster and gets 30 base points in attack. I'm not saying that normal Tyranitar is bad or something, I think they are used in different scenarios.
After the IC, I think that Hitmontop, Kommo-o and Scrafty (specially the last one) are going to rise in usage, as we have seen that Mega Tyranitar and Mega Metagross are really good Pokémon right now, so that hurts a little bit, but with proper team support, such as Tapu Lele, Landorus-T and Zapdos, this is da goat.

From A to A+
I agree with the Tyranitar rise. Both the mega and the baby are really good Pokémon right now, and the Z-Crunch set is really scary after a Dragon Dance. It is similar from the Mega's reasons, so I won't repeat myself.

I agree with both of these as well. I'd probably drop Mega Tyranitar in A-tier rather than A-plus because its low speed and unfortunate weaknesses hinder it just a touch, but it is still a top-level threat. Regular tyranitar has the same weaknesses at first glance, but its a much more diverse pokemon, and the fact that it operates as a non-mega makes it an easily splashable pokemon into almost any archetype, as jibaku explained very well above.

 

[Pyritie]

Rankings update

Tapu Koko: A -> A+

Tyranitar: A -> A+

Cresselia: A+ -> A

Amoonguss: A- -> A

Zapdos: A- -> A

Porygon2: B+ -> A-

Scrafty: B+ -> A-

Mega Tyranitar: B+ -> A- (I kinda feel like mega ttar is only really used when your team has no other mega, as it's not bad by itself, but compared to other megas it's not much of an upgrade over regular ttar. It's got better bulk and can screw with opposing weather better, though)

Mega Gengar: B+ -> A-

Mega Manectric: B+ -> A-

Mega Charizard X: C+ -> B

Mega Gyarados: C+ -> B-

Torkoal: B- -> C+

Hitmontop: UR -> B-

Incineroar: B+ -> A-

Kartana: B+ -> A-

Togedemaru: C- -> B-

Is alolan muk even still used? Looking at vgcstats shows it way down with a bunch of other C mons.

 

[Gotheru]

Dragon Dance Mega Tyranitar is really good in Mega Metagross teams, though there are two megas. You won't be using your Z-move too much if you already have Z-Tapu Lele, and Weakness Policy is really situational and shouldn't be used over Z imo. So, you can play with both Tyranitar and Metagross and just evolve Mega Metagross because normal DD Tyranitar is just like the WP one if they don't use a super effective move.

What is the point of using Mega Tyranitar over baby Tyranitar? Well, it heavily improves your matchup against other weather teams, mostly rain; where you can use your mega evolution as you would use the Charizard Y one, so you can change the weather even if you are faster. But most importantly, it is really good versus Mega Charizard Y. We have seen a team with Z-move Chlorophyll Venusaur paired up with Mega Charizard Y. If you lead Tapu Lele + Mega Tyranitar, T1 double protect to scout opponent's Protect, and then mega + Psychic the Venusaur out of this world, as Tyranitar will mega evolve after Mega Charizard.

The best part of Mega Tyranitar is that you are not forced to mega evolve right away. You can set your weather for another 5 turns after your weather, set up with the baby one, has already gone.

Most of players, apart from Ashton Cox, have been playing Mega Tyranitar over the small one for a lot of time. Yuree, Proman, Arash Ommati, Baz Anderson... All of them are playing Mega Tyranitar, and that's for a reason. And the first three out of the four are not playing with only Mega Tyranitar as the mega of choice, they are playing with Mega Metagross + Mega Tyranitar + Tapu, one of the best offensive teambuilding cores.

 

[Pyritie]

Dragon Dance Mega Tyranitar is really good in Mega Metagross teams, though there are two megas. You won't be using your Z-move too much if you already have Z-Tapu Lele, and Weakness Policy is really situational and shouldn't be used over Z imo. So, you can play with both Tyranitar and Metagross and just evolve Mega Metagross because normal DD Tyranitar is just like the WP one if they don't use a super effective move.

What is the point of using Mega Tyranitar over baby Tyranitar? Well, it heavily improves your matchup against other weather teams, mostly rain; where you can use your mega evolution as you would use the Charizard Y one, so you can change the weather even if you are faster. But most importantly, it is really good versus Mega Charizard Y. We have seen a team with Z-move Chlorophyll Venusaur paired up with Mega Charizard Y. If you lead Tapu Lele + Mega Tyranitar, T1 double protect to scout opponent's Protect, and then mega + Psychic the Venusaur out of this world, as Tyranitar will mega evolve after Mega Charizard.

The best part of Mega Tyranitar is that you are not forced to mega evolve right away. You can set your weather for another 5 turns after your weather, set up with the baby one, has already gone.

Most of players, apart from Ashton Cox, have been playing Mega Tyranitar over the small one for a lot of time. Yuree, Proman, Arash Ommati, Baz Anderson... All of them are playing Mega Tyranitar, and that's for a reason. And the first three out of the four are not playing with only Mega Tyranitar as the mega of choice, they are playing with Mega Metagross + Mega Tyranitar + Tapu, one of the best offensive teambuilding cores.

Yeah, I'm definitely not saying it's a bad mon (it's A- for a reason), but I feel like it's good only because regular ttar is good. Ttar can still use other items (darkium, WP, even stuff like chople) and doesn't eat your mega slot. Yeah you can run two megas but then if you want to bring both then you've basically got an itemless ttar.

That's my take on it at least.

 

[Serpens007]

MTtar and regular Ttar should share their spot. When you see top cuts, you see that nearly half Tyranitar are the Mega variant. It doesn't make much sense to leave them at different tiers. Only reason not to have M-Tar is to have another Mega with it anyways.

 

[TPO3]

Is alolan muk even still used? Looking at vgcstats shows it way down with a bunch of other C mons.

I haven't seen any. VGC 17 had a shortage of good poison-types, but this year doesn't have the same problem. (Mega Gengar, Naganadel, Nidoking, etc.) I think its claim to fame in the past has been that it's been a soft check to a lot of the top threats at the same time (tapus, p2, etc.) while this year, it "checks" all the same things, but there are other pokemon that can check or counter the same mons better. There are also a lot of pokemon in the upper tiers that it simply can't touch (Lando-T, Heatran, Tyranitar, etc.) which make it a lot more of a liability than it was last year.

 

[Serpens007]

In Latam at least it has been used a bit http://es.vgcsets.com/teams/filter?utf8=✓&pokemon=831

I remember one with subs, infestation, minimize and protect

 

[Chasingau]

Weavile: B- -> B/B+
Weavile has an exceptional matchup against landorus-t, can ohko tyranitar and salamence at -1, 2 hit ko mega-gross and amoonguss, and survive 252+ SpA lele dazzling gleam, 252 SpA LO Koko dazzling gleam, and 252+ Atk Landorus-T Rock Slide.

 

[Gotheru]

I was going to make that nom too. I have been playing a little bit with Weavile lately, and I think that it's a fantastic Pokémon. Maybe it shouldn't go to B+, but B is a good rank for it.
LO Weavile can OHKO Mega Metagross, Charizard X at +1 and Snorlax at +6 with Foul Play; Landorus-T, Zapdos, Mega Salamence, Kommo-o, SpDef Amoonguss with Icicle Crash; Gothitelle with Knock Off, heavily cripple Cresselia and knocking Porygon2's Eviolite; Tyranitar, non-bulk Heatran, etc with Low Kick...
It's a really breaking mon in the tier, though it suffers from Scarf Lando-T's rise, and Timid Koko is also rising in usage, and Kartana is becoming better and better, so I'm not really sure about what to do with Weavile...
Anyway, I can say for sure that Weavile is better than any B-tier Naganadel (drop this mon is trash) or Mega Gardevoir.

 

[Chasingau]

MTtar and regular Ttar should share their spot. When you see top cuts, you see that nearly half Tyranitar are the Mega variant. It doesn't make much sense to leave them at different tiers. Only reason not to have M-Tar is to have another Mega with it anyways.

Mega t-tar is extremely common and the stat boosts as well as the ability to mega and get up sandstorm again is extremely valuable.

 

[Serpens007]

Mega t-tar is extremely common and the stat boosts as well as the ability to mega and get up sandstorm again is extremely valuable.

Yep, that's why it shouldn't be at a different tier than regular T-tar, if you Mega or not, is just a matter of team choice.

If you run with regular, you have the pro of having another powerhouse mega alongside it (like M-Gross)
If you run Mega, you have a huge boost to it's stats and the option to change the weather without switching.

Either way, both excelent choices and makes some mind games of its own.

 

[Golisopod User]

Hey guys I am new to Smogon forums, but I have been playing for a while.

Specifically I want to talk about why Lando-T is no longer the best in the meta.

1. Rise of Ice types.
In the current meta, and specific people I have played with, I have fought many people using offensive Ice types. Specifically, I see a lot of M-Abomasnow, Weavile, and Frosslass. The only real way I have been able to beat them is Scarf+Stone Edge, and if they have Sash or I miss, I immediately die. I also find that if I run AV Lando-T, I am easily outsped and destroyed by HP Ice Lele.

2. Allies.
Due to the rise of mons like Koko, M-Meta, Ttar, and Lele (frail) I can no longer reliably run Scarf-Quake.

3. Other meta-mons
Pokemon like M-Meta absolutely annihilate this pokemon. Due to Lando-Ts reliance on Intimidate, M-Meta + Ice Punch OHKO's Lando-T
Here I fight some teams (NOTE: my team that I use is not that good in general) that uses meta mons such as Zapdos and Lando-T:
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7vgc2018-711133260
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7vgc2018-711139593


With all that being said, Lando-T still plays on God Mode. I would still say he is S tier, but not the best in the tier.

M-Meta should be S-tier

 

[Pyritie]

Rankings update

Muk-A: B- -> C+

Mega Tyranitar: A- -> A+ up with regular ttar

Naganadel: B -> B-

Weavile: B- -> B

 

[Jashsmash]

Hey guys I am new to Smogon forums, but I have been playing for a while.

Specifically I want to talk about why Lando-T is no longer the best in the meta.

1. Rise of Ice types.
In the current meta, and specific people I have played with, I have fought many people using offensive Ice types. Specifically, I see a lot of M-Abomasnow, Weavile, and Frosslass. The only real way I have been able to beat them is Scarf+Stone Edge, and if they have Sash or I miss, I immediately die. I also find that if I run AV Lando-T, I am easily outsped and destroyed by HP Ice Lele.

2. Allies.
Due to the rise of mons like Koko, M-Meta, Ttar, and Lele (frail) I can no longer reliably run Scarf-Quake.

3. Other meta-mons
Pokemon like M-Meta absolutely annihilate this pokemon. Due to Lando-Ts reliance on Intimidate, M-Meta + Ice Punch OHKO's Lando-T
Here I fight some teams (NOTE: my team that I use is not that good in general) that uses meta mons such as Zapdos and Lando-T:
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7vgc2018-711133260
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7vgc2018-711139593


With all that being said, Lando-T still plays on God Mode. I would still say he is S tier, but not the best in the tier.

M-Meta should be S-tier

I feel like the rise in ice types might just be a local meta kind of thing that you've been noticing because I don't think that any of these mons see usage outside of niche play on specific teams, especially Froslass. As to some of the other problems you brought up, I think the main solution to that is to just play AV Lando-t and just forget about those problems lol. No matter what, he still sits at the top of the meta.

 

[Serpens007]

Yeah, Lando is still the most used pokemon everywhere. Most used in Top Cuts, in BS, everywhere.

I wish they give Incineroar his hidden ability already, I'm pretty sure he would be just as good

 

[Gotheru]

I would like to make three nominations, I'm not really sure with one of them but I'll make it anyway.

Hydreigon from B+ to B or B-
I would like to ask why this Pokémon is in the same tier as Celesteela, Volcarona, Kommo-o or Politoed. If I'm not incorrect, this Pokémon has not top cutted in any regional or international (maybe I'm wrong, but looking though VGC Stats it doesn't appear in the last regionals). It has a whopping 0% winrate in NPA (or at least in the matches that I've watched), with only 3 uses.

Maybe I don't know what this Pokémon's true potential is, but I can't see it in any team. The only good part is that it can use Tailwind. Maybe you would like to use the Z-move Hydreigon as it could kill some Trick Room users, but modest 252 Z-Dark Pulse has 25% to OHKO 220/92+ Cresselia, and I think that you would never want to risk a 25% roll to kill the TR setter.

It is walled by Tapu Fini, one of the most common Pokémon, and by Tapu Koko if you are not running Earth Power. Draco Meteor is a really bad move in this metagame, and Hydreigon has some good coverage to justify the non-use of Draco Meteor. But if you don't have Draco Meteor, you are walled by Kommo-o, which is rising and rising.

Furthermore, Hydreigon is really damaged by the 4MSS. It has a lot of good coverage moves, such as Flamethrower, Earth Power, Focus Blast, and even Rock Tomb or Stone Edge to kill Charizard-Y. It also has Tailwind or Taunt to support its teammates, but it can't afford to have all of them.

It has something benefitial, as it is the only Pokémon that have all that coverage (I remember joking with one of my best friends about using Head Smash Scarfed Hydreigon to kill Charizard hahaha), but it is not good by any means. Offensive threats are becoming stronger and faster, and Hydreigon doesn't have enough power and speed to adapt to the metagame.

Stakataka from B+ to B
This Pokémon was the meme back in old days. People didn't know how to play against Stakataka, but now we all know what this Pokémon does, and it's not the best at doing that.

Yes, it is one of the only Pokémon that can set up Trick Room to sweep itself, but you usually don't have the necessary turns to do that; you should have another Pokémon to set up Trick Room for it and then sweep with Stakataka, and it really dangerous if that happens, but it is rather rare than not that this situation happens in a real game.

On the other hand, it is one of the only Pokémon that can sweep though an entire team before the Trick Room has ended. Its damage output is just ridiculous, but the metagame is evolving. More Intimidate users are being used. Also, the EV spreads have evolved from the beggining of the metagame, where we all used 252/252, but nowadays, Landorus-T is running bulk, Metagross is running a little bit of bulk, etc.

To mention another thing, its set of choice is really tricky. Gyro Ball, Rock Slide and Protect on non-banded sets are staples; but the real question is if you should use Trick Room or another coverage move. The most used of all is Trick Room, with 61%; but it has some drawbacks: you are walled by Aegislash, which is dropping a little bit, and by Mega Metagross, and that Pokémon is rising a lot. You can be walled by any steel-type if you don't run Earthquake, but you lose the option to set up you own Trick Room, which is kinda cool.

In conclusion, Stakataka is losing viability while the metagame is evolving and so it should drop imo.

Snorlax from A- to A

Fuck Snorlax, this Pokémon is broken. We all have evolved and stopped using the shitty Curse set and use Belly Drum Lax the most broken Pokémon in the game. You can barely 2HKO this Pokémon, and you are almost never OHKOing it (maybe with Z-Close Combat / HJK with Hitmontop, Scrafty or Pheromosa).

We all know what this big bad boy does, so I'm not going to explain it. I'm just going to say what has changed in the metagame so that Snorlax is better (well, maybe it has been good since the beginning of times).

1. Fighting-type Pokémon are dropping as fairies are rising. The only one that we have right now in A-rank is Scrafty, and you can finnish with that problem by using Tapu Fini with Snorlax. Also, Fighting-type coverage is becoming more rare, maybe Superpower Landorus-T, Low Kick Incineroar, Sacred Sword Kartana, or Fightinium Bulu or Lele (which are really rare to see) are the only ones which may be seen. And only the Z-move ones may opt to do severe amounts of damage, but Snorlax recovers it all and then recycles as a good citizen.

2. Z-Crunch Tyranitar is dropping in favour of Mega Tyranitar or Weakness Policy Tyranitar. Why should this affect to Snorlax at all? Well, Snorlax has a partner called "la gotica" also known as Gothitelle, which unfortunately gets OHKOed by -1 Z-Crunch, but it doesn't happen if Tyranitar isn't running a Z-move. Gothlax is a really strong combination, and there are only a few Pokémon with a small niche that can completely stop that core (and we have to remember that Gothlax has many partners with Intimidate or coverage moves to help them).

3. Knock Off Landorus-T is dropping in favour of Superpower. That is really benefitial for the Snorlax user, as intimidated, Landorus-T can't really 1vs1 Snorlax, which the Knock Off one could, or at least help. It is a little bit useless to make a big chunk of damage to Snorlax if it is going to recover it all and then use Recycle; but if you use Knock Off it can no longer recover by itself, so you are helping your partners.

But there are also reasons for it to not rise. Maybe all of those reasons are the anti-ban ones from DOU:

1. It can be hazed. This is not a real pain for Snorlax, since it only wastes one turn for setting up up to +6, and as it has Recycle it can use BD more than once in a game.

2. It can be phazed. While this being true, there are only few Pokémon that can do it, such as Whirlwind Support Volcarona or random Roar; and maybe you can win G1 with it, but in G2 the other player will be prepared for it.

3. It is predictable. Yes, it is. It doesn't usually run Protect, though it could run it, as we have seen in some NPA matches. Its coverage move is nearly always High Horsepower, and you can manouver with your flying-type Pokémon, but you should be careful that you don't get Return'ed on the switch.

4. It can be focussed. Well, that is true, but it is really difficult to 2HKO with two of your Pokémon. Talking about this, Snorlax has some impact on the metagame, as it punishes a more pasive way of playing, such as the Manectric VoltTurn (which also has Gothlax itself) or Pokémon like Porygon2, Cresselia, Gothitelle, etc. as they don't deal offensive pressure to Snorlax.

Snorlax is the best Trick Room abuser, and I even would say that it is the best set-up sweeper, thus it should rise.


I would like to see some discuss on these Pokémon, specially on Snorlax.

 

[Serpens007]

I totally agree on Snorlax. When you see it on team preview, you just HAVE to think on how to either stop it or take it down. Even if you actually do take it down, the amount of effort it takes may leave you vulnerable to other pokemon. It can even win 2v1 situations. It can be taunted, but even then it can take you down anyways. With the correct support, Snorlax is a major threat, without it, it is still a threat. So being a A pokemon is correct