USUM UU Viability Ranking Thread V2

[Felixx]

I agree that Celebi has gotten much better recently but it isn't simply because its a very good check to Breloom and Azumarill; it's because it puts a tremendous amount of pressure on the meta's typical stall and balance teams.

Celebi Groundium Z
Ability: Natural Cure
EVs: 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Psychic/Psyshock
- Giga Drain
- Nasty Plot
- Earth Power

This is the standard NP set but its very good rn. Stall teams usually cover their weakness to boosting grass attackers by adding one or two of Crobat, Amoonguss, or Bulky Scizor to their teams. This works fine against Breloom or Serpirior but is wholly inadequate for dealing with Celebi, who can flatten all three with STAB Psychic or +2 Tectonic Rage. Celebi's great bulk and natural cure lets you easily set up multiple times a match, and shrug off status that would cripple other stall breakers for the rest of the game. His bulk, indifference to status, and ability to check Breloom, Azumarill, bulky waters and Gliscor without U-Turn also makes him useful against more offensive teams as well, unlike stallbreakers such as Haxorus.

I would support a rise to B+, as Celebi is easily more useful and versatile than Mega-Blastoise or Crawdaunt, which is who he sits around now (ditto for Chandelure too).

Would like to note celebi unfortunately does not get psyshock, and just so this isn't a one liner...

Empoleon: Stay in B+ : Agree
Empo ability to countinuously switch into dangerous threats to Bulky Offense such as Scarf Lati, M-Pidgeot and Hydreigon while also being able to set up Rocks or defog Rocks.

Breloom: A to A+ : Agree
Everything that needs to be said has already been said, but to summarize, Breloom's low bulk and speed are outweighed by its high damage output with SD, access to strong priority, and versatility with many different sets, and thus warrants it a rise.

 

[Jade]

So I was recently informed that hp fire is redundant coverage on celebi since +2 Z-ep already gets the ko you are looking for. I will fully admit my mistake here.

Having said that I disagree with the statement that if the alomuk user scouts for Z-ep celebi is forced into a 50/50. After all its job in this case is breaking alo-muk so that something else on your team can take advantage of this, for example latias. If you look at all the damage muk was forced to take here, 2 rocks switchins + a +2 earth power. Alo-muk is now left at around 20% hp give or take. Now it can no longer succesfully check a threat you have in the back and the alo-muk user will most likely sack the alo-muk as it can no longer do its job. In my opinion celebi has in this case done what it was supposed to do.

Being a good BD azu check is in my opinion a great benefit to using celebi. While it in itself is not a good reason for it to rise to B+ it combined with the other benefits celebi can bring to your team are enough see it rise to B+. And while you are correct in saying its not the greatest azu switchin in the world, I never claimed that it was. It can take 1 hit from bandazu if it is necessary on a rainy day and force it out or else take damage which azu doesnt really want to be taking. But its really only supposed to come in after and do its shenanigans then.

As for whether or not NP celebi strictly outclasses spdef celebi I think this is highly dependent on your team. On maybe a straight up offense team this might indeed be the case, but on more bulky offensive teams and balance I think spdef celebi can give NP celebi a run for its money due to how well it functions as a bulky pivot. And yes spdef celebi can not switchin to bandazu on a knock but it can revenge it and grab you momentum with uturn which is always nice for bulky offense.

Last but not least yes if the krookodile is scarf then terrakion is obviously not coming in. I could have worded that much better but typing a lot of words fatigues my mind so mistakes like that can happen.

Hiya! Thanks for the reply. In my opinion, NP Celebi should be used as a mid or late-game stallbreaker. Killing one mon (albeit a mon that soft checks a lot of mons) isn't that great for a rise. It is a good BD Azu check, but so are a lot of mons: why should I use Celebi over them, besides access to Nasty Plot? If it does take a Band Azu hit, then its sweeping ability/stallbreaking ability is hindered a lot. Not to mention, some Azus are Perish Trap, which can stall you out with Perish Song and prevent Celebi from doing its job efficiently. Maybe I'm being too harsh on SpDef Celebi, but I don't see any reason to use it over other pivots like Amoonguss. It can't even check Azu efficiently because it straight up dies to Knock Off. Also, you're kind of forced to run HP Fire on it, or else you're going to be Pursuit trapped by Band Scizor if you predict wrong, or you're becoming set up fodder for SD Scizor, which is never a good thing. If you do run HP Fire, it becomes a LOT harder to check Amoonguss, Breloom, Kommo-O (which sets up on you, btw), Mega Altaria (same as Kommo-o), etc.

My thoughts on the current discussion topics:

Empoleon to B: Hard disagree.

Water/Steel is such a great defensive typing, and checks a lot of the meta. It also checks top tier threats such as Non-Electrium Z Latias, Mega Pidgeot, Moltres, etc. It's still as great as it was imo, and Loom dropping means nothing for it to drop.

Florges to C: Disagree.

The thing Florges has different from other Fairies is role compression with Defog and cleric support. Its been seeing decreased usage, but I disagree with dropping it.

Registeel to C+: Disagree. To C: Agree.

Registeel is rather passive and only fits on stall or semi-stall. It's also hard to justify using over other Steels such as Mega Aggron or Scizor on stall. I don't think this deserves a C+ rank. Something like C is better, imo.

 

[dodmen]

Mega Beedrill: B+ to B-
Beedrill saw next to no usage in SPL, and for good reason. With one or both of Scizor and Gliscor being on the majority of teams, it doesn't have a lot of room to do a whole lot even if it does get in safely. Aerodactyl, Cobalion, and Mega Aggron are all very common as well, as are softer checks like various scarfers, Hippowdon, and Stakataka. The amount of support Beedrill wants (simultaneous hazard setting on the opposing side and hazard clearing on its own side, trapping or luring Scizor and Gliscor, get it in safely somehow) is too much compared to the value it brings to a team.

Crawdaunt: B to C+ or lower
It was placed this high for its stallbreaking capabilities awhile ago, but since then, Mega Altaria has dropped and beats it easily, and many variants of stall have replaced Quagsire with Pyukumuku, which doesnt lose to Z Crabhammer. The increased usage of things like Z Hydreigon and bulky Rocky Helmet Cobalion also limit the value it gets out of a rare free turn against bulky offenses. Of course, the biggest reason for a drop is that there's very little reason to use it over Azumarill.

Doublade: B+ to B
While some offenses can struggle to switch directly into Gyro Ball, Doublade falls flat against anything bulky and even a lot of common offense mons like Moltres and Manectric have no problem switching in. It's not a bad mon but certainly not as threatening as stuff like Terrakion in B+.

Kommo-o: B- to B
Probably deserves to be in the same rank as Haxorus, which I'd argue is outclassed by Kommo-o as a DDer - Kommo-o has better setup opportunities and isn't as easy to revenge kill (and can also customize its item to break what it wants). Haxorus totally eclipses it as a pure wallbreaker with SD, though, so I think both in B is fine.

Slowbro: C- to B
If I learned anything from the Mega Slowbro suspect, it's that regular slowbro is really good and deserved to be used more. A nice check to physical attackers like Aero Azu and Gliscor that are usually annoying for many bulky offenses, isn't pursuit trapped too easily, and threatens most of its offensive switchins with a decently strong Scald or Ice Beam. It fits very easily on balances and bulky offenses with good and common Pokemon like Gliscor and Hydreigon.

Rhyperior: unranked to C+
I was looking for a way to not have my offense boned by Manectric, but not be as passive as Swampert or Hippowdon. While Swampert is usually better, Rhyperior can be better on offensive teams for its ability to actually hurt stuff like Latias, Hydreigon, and Amoonguss on the switch, although it's a worse check to stuff like Aero. It is, however, a really good answer to Moltres and Pidgeot.

Hide

standard set:

Rhyperior @ Leftovers
Ability: Solid Rock
EVs: 248 HP / 16 Atk / 244 SpD
Adamant Nature
- Stealth Rock
- Earthquake
- Ice Punch
- Rock Blast / Swords Dance

big dick set:

Rhyperior @ Expert Belt
Ability: Solid Rock
EVs: 128 HP / 128 Atk / 252 SpD
Adamant Nature
- Stealth Rock
- Earthquake
- Ice Punch
- Stone Edge / Fire Punch

128+ Atk Expert Belt Rhyperior Ice Punch vs. 244 HP / 0 Def Gliscor: 350-413 (99.4 - 117.3%)
128+ Atk Expert Belt Rhyperior Ice Punch vs. 252 HP / 184 Def Amoonguss: 223-264 (51.6 - 61.1%) -- 93.4% chance to 2HKO after Black Sludge recovery
252 SpA Manectric-Mega Hidden Power Ice vs. 128 HP / 252 SpD Solid Rock Rhyperior: 114-135 (28.2 - 33.4%) -- 0.1% chance to 3HKO

 

[Jade]

Doublade to B: Disagree.

This mon soft checks a lot of dangerous threats. While it does fall short sometimes, I don't think this merits a drop. Steel/Ghost is a great defensive typing, not much to say here.

Mega Beedrill to B-: Agree.

This mon is seriously underwhelming. Things like Rocky Helmet Cobalion, Gliscor, Scizor, Mega Aerodactyl, etc just rain on its parade. It offers no defensive utility at all, and is hard to justify using a mega slot on it.

Crawdaunt to C+: Agree.

Basically what dod said, Pyukumuku becoming more common on stall and its general frality makes it hard to use, as well as being hard to fit on teams that aren't Trick Room.

Kommo-O to B: Agree.

This should be ranked with Haxorus. SubBD is really fun to use, and can pull a late-game sweep. I've also been enjoying Autotomize, courtesy of sparrow, which can surprise teams and clean.

Slowbro to B: Agree.

Regen is broken, soft checks a lot of physical attackers. Even outclasses its Mega sometimes, funnily enough. Nothing else to say that hasn't been said.

Don't have an opinion on Rhypherior.

 

[dingbat]

Florges to C: Disagree.

The thing Florges has different from other Fairies is role compression with Defog and cleric support. Its been seeing decreased usage, but I disagree with dropping it.

I can list two better mons off the top of my head that can do these exact jobs better than Florges can: Mega Altaria and Togekiss. What they both have in common is that they require less support to run and they have actual Fire-type moves that can straight up OHKO Scizor, which on the former is quite common. Simply put, I believe a lot of us can agree that Florges is just not a good option in this meta right now due to its competition.

Empoleon on the other hand I will gladly accept the counter argument as I confess that I have a shitty bias against the pengu

 

[Jade]

I can list two better mons off the top of my head that can do these exact jobs better than Florges can: Mega Altaria and Togekiss. What they both have in common is that they require less support to run and they have actual Fire-type moves that can straight up OHKO Scizor, which on the former is quite common. Simply put, I believe a lot of us can agree that Florges is just not a good option in this meta right now due to its competition.

Empoleon on the other hand I will gladly accept the counter argument as I confess that I have a shitty bias against the pengu

Mega Altaria takes up a mega slot. While it is a good mon, some archetypes might want to use something else over Mega Altaria. As for Togekiss, I concede defeat and say Togekiss does outclass Florges, however I still think Florges should stay just due to its WishPassing abilities. Also Togekiss has a bit of a hard time fitting Defog, as its moveset is usually NP/Air Slash/Roost/TWave. Also unlike Togekiss, it is not weak to rocks. Not only this, but it beats to Electric types such as Mega Manectric and Raikou, which Togekiss also can't do.

However, I agree with it dropping to C+. It suffers a bit from 4MSS, and is only good over Sylveon due to Synthesis/Defog. As Sage once said, it's only good for role compression.

 

[Freshgamer]

Hippowdon to A- -> Agree
Solid Ground-Type Rocker that isn't pressure by Manetric as much as Swampert and Gliscor (Gliscor worrying of HP Ice and Swampert getting worn down due to lack of recovery). Can sponge hits from threats like Scizor, Stakataka, Pidgeot, Aerodactyl, Cobalion and Infernape etc. It's certainly not a push over Pokemon, though it can be passive sometimes.

Mega Beedrill to B- -> Disagree, though it can drop to B
I don't think Beedrill is B- material, I say it's like Mega Sceptile at the moment, decent but underwhelming in some match-ups. Simply there are better Mega Pokemon than it at the moment so it struggles for that slot. Drop it to B with Sceptile.

Kommo-o to B -> Agree
Kommo-o should have been the same rank as Haxorus a long time ago (since the ban of it's Z-Move in my opinion). Haxorus breaks Stall over Kommo-o but Kommo-o offers it's secondary typing to beat bulky Steel-Types like Aggron better. Kommo-o has also been using Overcoat lately as a pseudo Breloom/Amoonguss check. Overall, they should both be the same rank.

Registeel ranked between C- to C+ -> Agree
Registeel is a diet Aggron, it fits well on Stall or some Bulky Balance teams. It offers itself as something to take Aggron's spot so you can use something else for your Mega (like Mega Altaria which Stall loves to have). It is passive though, but Seismic Toss allows it to break Substitute of Serperior which can be problematic for Stall and Bulky Balance. I reckon C is a good place for it.

 

[Delverazo]

Wanted to give my thoughts on some of the Pokes that are being discussed as of now.

Breloom A to A+ -> Agree
Breloom's combination of Spore + Mach Punch an incredible good attack and a sick ability in Technician makes it a really good pokemon in UU, while it does have checks and counters (things like amoonguss and crobat), it's really good at revenge killing and disrupting other pokemon. It's poison heal + toxic orb set is also extremely potent against fatter builds for the inhability to break throught it easily and being put to sleep. I think it should rise.

Mega Aggron A- to A -> Agree
M Aggron's capabilities of walling a good portion of the metagame because of it's sheer bulk complimented by it's awesome ability in Filter is really good atm walling some important physical threats like Scizor, Azu, M Aero and M Alt while also faring well agaisnt some special attackers like Latias. The lack of recovery hinders it a bit but with proper support from wish passers and clerics, M Aggron puts in a lot of work versus the opposing teams and with the amazing coverage it gets and the ability to set up rocks multiples times, i think it's a really good mon and that it deserves to rise

Stakataka A- to B+ -> On the fence
While yes, Stakataka hype has been on decline, i feel like this mon is really good at what it does, TR played correctly is scary to face and this thing can basically OHKO a lot of things under TR, the ability to snowball and turn it into a sweep with beast boost and also to set it up by itself is really practical, However, this mon fits mostly in TR teams and it's easily walled by fat ground types (Hippowdown and Swampert) and also having a typing that's 4x weak to ground and fighting which are pretty common in the UU metagame makes it sometimes hard to use. Im not convinced as to wether it should drop or stay where it is.

Chandelure B to B+ -> Agree
Chandy feels underrated to me, a base 145 special attack is extremely amazing and having a fire/ghost gives u some amazing STAB to play around with, it's scarf set is difficult to switch into and the majority of mons that can have to be cautious of not being crippled by trick and it's CM + Sub set is a huge boom agaisnt bulky teams, the possibility of running z moves for an extreme nuke is also worth noticing. Being able of acting like a soft check for mons like Scizor and Breloom is also really nice. Overall, a really cool pokemon and i think it should rise.

Tsareena C+ to C -> Disagree
While Tsareena isn't one of the best grass types in the tier, it's niche of being a strong wallbreaker with utility in rapid spin is really valuable, being able of pressuring most of the tier stealth rock setters (Swampert, Hippo and Empoleon) while also having a cool ability in Queenly Majesty to deal with the likes of Breloom are some of the things this mon has going for it as of now. I don't think it should drop.

Mega Beedrill: B+ to B- -> Agree (Kinda)
M Beedrill is in a tough spot rn, the increasing usage of fat ground types for countering M Mane really hurts it's viability, scarfers like Infernape and Latias being really common also hinders it as a revenge killer, other offensive checks like Cobalion, Scizor and M Aero makes it harder for M Bee to put in some work and having paper thin defenses and a weakness to rocks doesn't help either agaisnt strong priority users like Azu and the aforementioned Scizor. I think it should drop, However, i think that B is a much more fitting rank than B- since M Bee hits hard with adaptability and u-turn is really nice on it.

Kommo-o: B- to B -> Agree
Kommo-o has an easier time at setting up d dances thanks to it better bulk, while it doesn't break stall as nearly as Haxorus, it can work well agaisnt bulky offense, having the ability of running a lot of different moves and sets makes it really unpredictable and efficient at fullfilling different roles. I think it deserves a rise.

Empoleon: B+ to B -> Disagree
Empoleon's is one of the best pokes to handle the special attackers of the tier (Latias, Primarina and M- Pidgeot) while also offering role compression with it's amazing Water/Steel typing and utility in Scald and/or Knock Off/Toxic, it may be vulnerable to chip damage and other Knock off users but the perks it has and utility it gives is really useful in the tier. I don't think it should drop.

Florges: B- to C -> Disagree
Florges is mostly compared to Sylveon for both giving cleric support, having the fairy typing and checking the same pokes, while it's true that Sylveon outclasses her almost all the time, Florges has minor perks that make her differentiate from Sylveon, mainly having self recovery in Synthesis and the capability to run Defog to offer role compresion, it honestly doesn't exist much difference and they fullfill the same roles of clerics, However, Florges does have some things that makes her differ from Sylveon, because of it, i think her B- ranking already displays her capabilities in comparison with Sylveon and i don't think it should drop.

Hippowdon: B+ to A- -> Agree
Hippo really shines in this meta, walling most of the physical attackers and offering good utility in SR and whirlwind and an inmunity to Electric while not fearing M Mane as much as other ground types, I honestly feel the biggest boom for it is the form of reliable recovery in Slack Off which gives it an edge from Swampert, It really deserves a raise imo.

Crawdaunt: B to C+ -> Agree (Kinda)
Crawdaunt's low bulk and speed makes it hard to keep up agaisnt offensive oriented teams and Pyukumuku appearance in stall makes it harder for it to break throught it rn, Being weak to Mach Punch and walled by top tier threats like M Alt and Azu isn't too good for Crawdaunt either, However, Crawdaunt is one of the premier breakers in TR archetypes and it excels on it really well, and for that, i think it shouldn't drop below C+

This was my first long post in any thread and feedback on it would be appreacited. (Im sorry for my bad gramatic)

 

[Pak]

Stakataka: A- to B+ or lower
Stakataka is just so one-dimensional and doesn't offer a whole lot to teams outside of an pretty good cleaner against offensive teams. Even against these types of teams, it's not uncommon that it finds itself getting a kill after stomaching a hit to set up Trick Room, then getting picked off by an Azu Aqua Jet, a Breloom Mach Punch, or even an Infernape Vacuum Wave. Additionally, against bulkier teams, it struggles against many of the tier's popular glue mons like Gliscor, Hippowdon, Swampert, Amoonguss (needs chip and to use Z Edge), Suicune, and Mega Aggron, meaning it often does nothing but suck momentum as opponents switch to these. Overall it's just a hard mon to justify putting on a team over other more consistent options.

Chandelure: B to B+
Chandelure, more specifically with the Scarf set, is a p cool mon atm. Its boosted Speed tier, typing, and raw power let it match up nicely with a bunch of the top stuff such as Scizor, Serperior (Infiltrator), Cobalion, Infernape, Breloom, and Amoonguss (Sleep Talk). The rocks weakness and presence of Pursuit are what hold it back in the end but it really is a good pick in the current meta and wayyyy better than the stuff in B rn.

Nihilego: B to B+
Cool, versatile mon, most notable for being one of the tier's more reliable rocks setters due to its unique typing and coverage options that let it threaten removers like Tentacruel, Empoleon, Mega Altaria, and even Gliscor. Other sets like Scarf and even Sub 3 attacks (something I've been messing around with that capitalizes on switches or sacks and scouts Scarf Krookodile and CB Sciz) also have merit in their respective roles. Its special bulk lets it blanket check many of the tier's special attackers while countering birds like Mega Pidgeot and Moltres which have seen a huge rise in usage with the departure of Rotom-W and introduction of more Defog users. Better than the stuff in B.

Sub thing

Nihilego @ Electrium Z
Ability: Beast Boost
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Sludge Wave
- Thunder
- Hidden Power [Ice] / Grass Knot
- Substitute

Tsareena: keep at C+
This one isn't a huge deal but its Choice Band set is much better than what's currently in C. While not super spammable, Power Whip hits surprisingly hard and Tsareena can U-turn out on Amoonguss and stuff to get teammates in favorable positions. Its a great offensive check to Breloom and can revenge kill stuff like Azu and Scizor (Queenly Majesty helps with all 3, most notably Sciz). It can be hard to justify over other more common Grasses but it's a decent mon and shouldn't drop any further.


e: also agree with dod, rank rhyp

 

[dingbat]

C- --> B: Gone are the days that I shit on Slowbro, especially now that there's plenty of evidence beyond doubt that players are utilizing it to great success once again, along with its Mega form freed (yes, this actually affects Slowbro's viability, since you're going to spend much of the battle abusing Regenerator). Speaking of which...

New --> A?: Can probably take your time on this mainly since a lot of us didn't really explore Mega Slowbro during the suspect, but there's little doubt that when things completely settle for it, it will become a very centralizing force as there are considerably fewer threats that can effectively stop this from sweeping once it nabs that first Calm Mind boost as opposed to Suicune or Latias getting its first Calm Mind.

B+ --> B: The rebound in Volt-Turn definitely hurts Doublade quite a bit and it certainly doesn't help that Mega Manectric has such a sky high usage in this meta right now.

C- --> C/C+: There's no doubt that Seismitoad is inferior to Swampert in most aspects especially with Rotom-W gone, but I've always been under the mindset that C- still sells its capabilities short. Water Absorb is definitely a lot more useful now than it was right after Rotom-W rose back up to OU, mainly since it can handle Volcanion (another threat that's steadily increased in viability + usage lately) better than Swampert can and Knock Off does whatever dumb shit that it always does.

C+ --> C-: Breloom dropping definitely hurt Umbreon quite a bit since it doesn't deal with Breloom well, and it most certainly doesn't deal well with Breloom's checks and counters either.

C --> UR: I know what everyone else and I are precisely wondering:
1760: | 157 | Kabutops | 0.11399% | what the fuck
1630: | 175 | Kabutops | 0.13066% | does this thing
1500: | 192 | Kabutops | 0.16866% | even do here

 

[Jade]

I think A- is a fair rank for Slowbro. Most of the time its outclassed by its normal form in the sense that it wants Regen to pivot around, and doesn't mega until end-game. There is also many mons that pressure it and prevent it from setting up. Yes it's hard to kill once it gets there, but getting there in the first place is tough. Though Water/Psychic is a good defensive typing, Electric and Grass types being everywhere certainly don't help it, as well as Hydreigon becoming more common. Being shut down by status is also another bad thing, unless its a Rest set which is passive, or you run a cleric with it, which isn't hard to pressure/stall out Heal Bell. Despite this, it soft checks just about every physical attacker and has good bulk. I think B is underselling it, so A- sounds fair for now.

 

[Moutemoute]

Breloom : A to A+ → AGREE
Breloom is definitively one of the most annoying Pokemon in Underused. Spore is dumb and permit to Breloom to neutralize one Pokemon during a couple of turns. This thing doesn't have a real counter. Recently, while laddering, I have faced YouthBerry which plays Z-Giga Impact and it's dumb how it's useful vs things that are supposed to deal with Breloom.

252 Atk Breloom Breakneck Blitz (200 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Crobat: 262-309 (84.2 - 99.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Breloom Breakneck Blitz (200 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Altaria: 238-281 (81.7 - 96.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Breloom Breakneck Blitz (200 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Altaria-Mega: 200-236 (68.7 - 81%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock (dies after Mach Punch)
+2 252 Atk Breloom Breakneck Blitz (200 BP) vs. 252 HP / 184 Def Amoonguss: 463-545 (107.1 - 126.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock and Black Sludge recovery
+2 252 Atk Breloom Breakneck Blitz (200 BP) vs. 248 HP / 88+ Def Celebi: 363-428 (90 - 106.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

With Sash, LO, Z-Crystal or even Toxic Orb with Poison Heal, Breloom is always good and it should definitively rise.

Aggron-Mega : A- to A → On the fence
Even if Aggron-Mega is trully amazing for a lot of team, I think we should wait a little bit. Slowbro-Mega is now in Underused and may be in competition with Aggron-Mega. Even if Aggron-Mega can check a lot of top threat in UU, it doesn't have a way to heal itself which mean its easy to wear it down. For this main reason, I think we should wait a few weeks and see how the UU Metagame will change.

Stakataka : A- to B+ → AGREE
Stakataka should definitively drop. Since the arrival of Breloom, it became kinda tough to play with Staka because Breloom threaten it with a lot of ease thanks to Technician Mach Punch. Also, Slowbro-Mega counter it (like 99% of the Physical sweeper in UU) and can 2HKO it w/ Scald..

0 SpA Slowbro Scald vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Stakataka: 170-204 (52.1 - 62.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
0 SpA Slowbro-Mega Scald vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Stakataka: 216-254 (66.2 - 77.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Stakataka Continental Crush (180 BP) vs. 252 HP / 216+ Def Slowbro: 226-267 (57.3 - 67.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Stakataka Continental Crush (180 BP) vs. 252 HP / 216+ Def Slowbro-Mega: 156-184 (39.5 - 46.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

Chandelure : B to B+ → AGREE
I recently tested Chandelure and I agree w/ the majority which say that this Pokemon is really nice atm. Its dual STAB is really good and allows it to threaten and check some real threat in UU (like Breloom, Scizor, Slowbro-Mega, Serperior etc..). Even if it's weak to Pursuit and harcountered by A-Muk, it is clearly better than all the B 'Mon.

Kommo-O : B- to B → AGREE
Sub Belly Drum Kommo-O is imo the best set of Kommo-O. It can be very deadly vs team which reliate on Roar Pokemon to prevent Set-Up Sweeper to do their job (like Empoleon / Swampert). Imo, people should run dual STAB in this set (Drain Punch + Dragon Claw) because it allows Kommo-O to beat Crobat, Tentacruel but also Latias (and OHKO Gliscor which allows Kommo-O to stay under its Sub). Since Primarina get OHKO after SR by +6 Drain Punch and Sylveon can't do anything to Kommo-O, thanks to its ability Soundproof, you just need to deal with Altaria-Mega / Togekiss + something to weakened Azumarill (hello Scizor / Steel Type / Manectric-Mega :wink:).

Hippowdon : B+ to A- → AGREE
Hippowdon is probably the best way to deal with Volt-Turn atm (except Volt-Turn w/ Rotom-Mow). It countered with a lot of ease Manectric-Mega and prevent a lot of Pokemon like Altaria-Mega, Physical Infenape, Stakataka, Cobalion etc.. to be too much of a threat.

 

[LORD HELIX 65]

Slowbro to B: Agree
Recently, Slowbro has lifted itself up from mediocrity into a real threat. It is a great blanket check to so many powerful threats and Regenerator is an excellent ability for it. It is actually suprisingly versatile from set ranging from CM + 3 attacks, the standard stall set, CM +Z move, and the sub CM toxic set. I honestly could see bro going as high as A-. It's really that good. Certain "Checks" like Scizor, Mega Beedrill, and Gengar can't switch in safely often thanks to having to predict what moves Slowbro is running from Fire Blast to Psyshock to ice beam. Great mon.

Mega Aggron to A: Disagree

At first, I was all on board for Mega Aggron to move to A due to its excellent typing, titanic Physical bulk and solid attack stat, but now I can't see it happening anymore. The Introduction of Mega Slowbro is really bad for Aggron because it has nothing significant to stand up to it. Heavy slam does very little as does a non stab Earthquake, and Mega Bro will give it serious competition as a wall and stallmon. While Aggron may have a better typing and ability, Mega Slowbro has reliable recovery, which is huge. On top of this, it is also less passive thanks to a better offensive typing and access to Calm mind. Mega Bro is also more specially bulky with 95/80 special bulk and CM compared to Aggron's 70/80. However Mega Aggron still has many special niches over bro and should remain A- but not rise either.

Kommo-o to B: agree

Sub BD is a really really scary set if pulled off and at +6 even most resists fall to Kommo-o. Fighting STAB and access to Belly drum more than makes up for it's lower speed and attack than Haxorus. DD Z-Move sets are also very potent as well. Really nice mon atm and deserves a rise.

Now for my own controversial nom:

Infernape down to A-

Infernape hasn't been as good as it used to be lately, as it lost the ability to counter Mamoswine as it left and major threats rising like Mega Altaria, Slowbro, Mega Aerodactyl, and especially Mega Slowbro. I will admit Mega Bro is new and the meta hasn't even been able to adapt yet, but Infernape has major difficulties with both Slowbro and Mega Slowbro. Scarf Infernape's U-turn, a super effective moves, 6hkoes mega bro. 6HKOes. That's pathetic. And yes, I am aware mixed ape exists i will get to that. It's stabs are walled by both bros and Infernape has a newfound bad case of 4MSS. If it wants to run grass knot to deal with bros, it has to give up either mach punch, gunk shot or thunderpunch. It sort if needs to run Overheat, Grass knot, thunderpunch, Flare Blitz, Gunk shot, and mach punch all at the same time, which it simply cannot do.

 

[Jade]

Infernape down to A-

Infernape hasn't been as good as it used to be lately, as it lost the ability to counter Mamoswine as it left and major threats rising like Mega Altaria, Slowbro, Mega Aerodactyl, and especially Mega Slowbro. I will admit Mega Bro is new and the meta hasn't even been able to adapt yet, but Infernape has major difficulties with both Slowbro and Mega Slowbro. Scarf Infernape's U-turn, a super effective moves, 6hkoes mega bro. 6HKOes. That's pathetic. And yes, I am aware mixed ape exists i will get to that. It's stabs are walled by both bros and Infernape has a newfound bad case of 4MSS. If it wants to run grass knot to deal with bros, it has to give up either mach punch, gunk shot or thunderpunch. It sort if needs to run Overheat, Grass knot, thunderpunch, Flare Blitz, Gunk shot, and mach punch all at the same time, which it simply cannot do.

I strongly disagree with dropping Infernape. While it does have problems with Mega Bro, it can easily just U-Turn out into something else that beats it. Mega Altaria is hit by Gunk Shot and Aero doesn't like taking Close Combats. I don't think Grass Knot is necessary to deal with bro, as it can stay regular and just heal all the HP back with Regenerator. Not to mention, GK is a 58% chance to OHKO, meaning if it doesn't, Slowbro can just recover or switch. Mixed Ape can also run Bloom Doom, which has a slight chance to OHKO after Rocks and some chip. Its scarf set is very good speed control, although Scarf Lati being so common hurts it. It really only suffers 4MSS on its mixed sets, but its scarf sets are still good. Also Ape didn't counter Mamo, it checked it.

I wouldn't say Bro is good on stall tbh. You give up either Alomomola's WishTect combo, a staple, Quagsire's Unaware, another staple, or run triple Water which sounds terrible. Mega Aggron is still a great mon, and how is it passive? It has Roar to phase out attackers and a powerful STAB Heavy Slam often 120 base power. Not to mention, Aggron can toxic Mega Bro, completely shutting it down (unless its like a bad rest set). Another nifty thing about Mega Aggron is that it beats clerics often paired with Mega Bro: Sylveon, Togekiss, Florges, etc. Its lack of recovery isn't very hard to patch up when you pair it with a WishPasser like Sylveon.

 

[Freshgamer]

My final agreements/disagreements before the next VR update:

Nihilego to B+ -> Agree
Flying types are becoming more prominent due to Pokemon like Stakataka going on the down low and Pokemon like Serperior + Breloom being a prime part of the meta. Nihilego is a great choice if you have a weakness to Pokemon like Mega Pidgeot and Moltres which are becoming more common and prevalent in the meta. It's also a great lure, decent scarfer and capable of setting Rocks or even Toxic Spikes.

Mega Slowbro ranked to A or A- -> Agreed
Mega Bro is an odd ball, some situations it's original form is better, whilst in other situations the Mega is better even though they do pretty similar things. Though in this meta, I feel like Mega Bro has an edge over it's regular counterpart, but mostly for setup situations. It's capable of invalidating threats like Stakataka, Aerodactyl, Cobalion etc. Various setup sets from Pokemon like Infernape struggle to beat it, though Scarf is still capable of punishing it by U-Turning into a threat like Hydreigon or Manectric. Overall, it has somewhat centralisation to it which I believe it should be ranked at least A-.

Empoleon to B -> Disagree
Rising meta trends benefit it more than current meta trends that hurt it. Yes, this thing struggles against Pokemon like Manectric and Breloom, but it's one of the best "Special Sponge Defogger" in the tier. It's capable sponging hits from Latias (excluding Z-Thunder), Pidgeot and Primarina, which is great quality in team building. It has utility in the form of Knock Off and Roar, whilst also capable of crippling Stealth Rockers like Swampert and Aggron with Scald burns. It also threatens Gliscor with Ice Beam if you decide not to run Knock Off. Overall it shouldn't drop, at least not right now.

Crawdaunt to C+ -> Agree
Trick Room on the down low, Pyukumuku being ran on Stall teams more often and overall Azumarill just being a better physical Water-Type just hurts this thing. I agree it shouldn't drop lower than this, as it's the premier Trick Room Wallbreaker, but that's it niche now.

Umbreon to C- -> On The Fence
This one I'm not sure about. Fat Dark-Types are rare and wish WishCleric Dark-Types are even rarer to point where I think it should stay C+ due to it's solid niche but meta trends have hurt it. It's capable on taking hits from Pokemon like Latias, Manectric and Pidgeot, similar to Sylveon, but unlike Sylveon it isn't too pressured by the current Aggron WishPass core. This honestly up to debate, just wanted get my thoughts so people who decide to vote can take these to thought as well.

Kabutops to UR -> Agreed
Boy it's sure is a nice clear day today! As was yesterday! And the day before. And they day before that... Now that I think about when did it last rain? Oh wait, Rain teams are dead in UU. Seriously though, you're off better using Barbaracle because Rain is very niche in UU right now.

 

[Hilomilo]

Ranking Update
Mega Slowbro will be added to the 'New Pokemon' rank, meaning you should feel free to discuss where you think it deserves to be ranked in the next update, which will be two weeks from Sunday. With that out of the way, it's time to dive into the changes we saw after this discussion, which are pretty plentiful.

Rises

A+ -> S

A -> A+

A- -> A

B+ -> A-

B+ -> A-

B -> B+

B -> B+

C- -> B-

UR -> C

UR -> C

Drops

A- -> B+

B+ -> B

B+ -> B

B+ -> B-

B -> B-

B- -> C+

B- -> C+

C- -> UR

reasons for rises

Latias’s placement in the rankings has been a hot topic as of late, though it is rising back to S on the basis of its greater influence on the tier than what else is in A+. Its adaptability has recently been showcased through the resurgence of its Z-Thunder set, which overwhelms conventional checks like Mega Aggron and Empoleon, which in addition to its generally fantastic offensive prowess, ability to defensively blanket check a number of threats even as an offensive Pokemon, and overall versatility contributes to its return to the highest possible rank.

Not exactly the mushroom that everyone thought would rise, especially considering that this was a recently rejected discussion point, though Amoonguss’s ability to stand up to such a huge amount of top threats in the metagame makes it a ridiculously strong pick as a defensive pivot. It provides a strong check to Azumarill, Breloom, Primarina, Serperior, and a number of other defining Pokemon that despite its tendency to be a little too passive, rationalizes its defensive capabilities being represented with an A+ ranking.

Mega Aggron is another Pokemon that defensively flourishes in the current metagame. Blanket checking the majority of the tier’s most centralizing Pokemon, including Scizor, Choice Band Azumarill, Serperior, Latias, and Mega Aerodactyl in addition to having a fairly impressive offensive presence gives it a ton of current usability, thus justifying another rise in rank.

Krookodile has seen a lot of success so far in SPL, proving that despite some iffy responses to metagame trends over recent months, it still has the tools needed to consistently put in work. Its fast Pursuit is a highly underappreciated tool given the presence of Pokemon like Latias and Gengar, while its Scarf set is proving to just be generally solid and plenty defining to currently propel it back into the A ranks, thanks to the usefulness of a fast and powerful Earthquake.

Tentacruel has more recently been including Poison-type STAB attacks onto its sets, which despite sacrificing utility has allowed it to more efficiently stand up to the likes of Azumarill, Breloom, and Serperior. Despite having recently dropped, it’s proving to be adaptable in addition to remaining a strong defensive pick due to the amount of Pokemon its typing allows it to very adequately blanket check.

Chandelure is more worth using in the meta than ever before, thanks to its typing and Infiltrator/Flash Fire abilities allowing it to function as an extremely reliable revenge killer with its Choice Scarf set. It stands as one of the best methods of disposing of sweepers like Scizor, Breloom, and Serperior, and also appreciates the constant influx of Amoonguss usage and viability.

Nihilego currently has a stunning success rate in SPL, winning every game it’s been seen in thus far and definitely pulling its weight. It still faces pretty stiff competition from Gengar, though its unique set of tools over its competition, which includes the ability to easily stand up to the rising Moltres and Mega Pidgeot, has proven to be worth keeping the two Poison-types only a subrank apart.

A more definitive ranking is to figured out as the ranking council discusses the comparison of Slowbro and its mega this next week, though for now rising an entire rank is reasonable due to Slowbro’s proven prowess as a defensive pivot and wincon. It fits well on to current balance and bulky offense archetypes and is capable of providing these teams with a strong check to the likes of Gliscor, Cobalion, Azumarill, Infernape, and several other physical attackers, which is certainly more valuable than a C- ranking would suggest.

Registeel has recently seen a fair amount of usage on defensively oriented builds, and is proving to be quite capable of pulling its weight in a lot of matchups. It faces a fair amount of competition, though its typing and bulk allow it to form a very potent defensive core with Alomomola while reliably checking a variety of important physical and special threats, which includes Hydreigon, Latias, Serperior, Mega Altaria, and more.

Rhyperior has proven to be worth ranking on account of its ability to function as a non passive Mega Manectric check, which several offensive teams have recently struggled to find. It can also check recently risen threats in Moltres and Mega Pidgeot extremely adequately, which only adds to its current overall utility.

reasons for drops

Stakataka has lost a lot of consistency even since recently dropping to A-, largely due to the metagame continuing to adapt to it quite well. It’s easily revenge killed by common priority users such as Infernape, Breloom, and Azumarill, and heavily struggles against several popular Pokemon on the tier’s commonly seen balance and bulky offense builds, which include Mega Aggron, Swampert, Hippowdon, Alomomola, and more.

Doublade is definitely a bit of a mixed bag right now. It matches up incredibly against a few very defining Pokemon, including Cobalion and Breloom, though it struggles heavily against currently prevalent bulky builds while also failing to combat the likes of Moltres, Mega Manectric, and Volcanion, all currently popular picks on the offensive builds Doublade would otherwise excel against. The recent resurgence of Z-Thunder Latias also isn’t any fun for it. Overall, the recent cons that now come with fitting Doublade on a team are enough to justify dropping it from B+.

Mega Sceptile has struggled to keep up with the metagame recently, especially considering its current opportunity cost. Rotom-W leaving gave it less opportunities to switch in on its own, while the influx of Mega Aggron usage exacerbates its four-moveslot syndrome, Alolan Muk and Amoonguss defensively trouble it, and every common Choice Scarf user applies heavy offensive pressure to it. It’s still potent, though Swords Dance sets are still relatively niche and not enough to keep it as high as B+ for now.

Mega Beedrill’s usability has died down dramatically. It struggles horribly against the majority of the metagame’s popular balance staples, such as Mega Aggron, Hippowdon, and Gliscor. Its vulnerability to Scizor has always been a problem, though other metagame trends so intensely work against it in addition to this that a two-subrank drop most definitely reflects its current viability.

Crawdaunt has a few key struggles that justify residing in a rank lower than B. It faces severe competition from Azumarill, doesn’t enjoy the abundance of Fighting-type priority, and can’t stand up to Pokemon like Hydreigon, Mega Altaria, and Pyukumuku, which is notably seeing more usage on stall as of late. It has just become significantly riskier to use.

The consensus here was that Florges really isn’t used enough and has too much trouble distinguishing itself from its main competitors in Sylveon, Togekiss, and Mega Altaria to be ranked alongside more proven Pokemon like Kommo-O and Mandibuzz. Not a lot changed for it, but C+ is merely a more fitting placement for the time being.

Right now Metagross really struggles to find an offensive or defensive niche that isn’t generally done better by another Steel-type or that is all too necessary. Its Stealth Rock and Mixed Lure sets are both unique in their own right, though neither performs consistently enough to outweigh some of its glaring flaws, which include an inability to combat defensive builds and poor matchups against the tier’s very popular Fire-type Choice Scarfers, among other things.

Xatu was really only a considerable pick when Klefki and Spikes offense ran the metagame. In addition to taking on Klefki, it can be serviceable against other defensive entry hazard setters, though all in all its niche is one occupied by several other Pokemon that bring way more positive traits than Xatu’s only one in Magic Bounce to the table, especially considering its poor matchup against several top threats.

rejected nominations and discussion points

Breloom A -> A+
I personally could get behind this change, though the ranking council’s main consensus behind keeping Breloom in A was that it just isn’t as good or defining as what currently sits in A+. Breloom’s extremely lacking defensive utility, semi-unreliable damage, and paltry Speed tier allows the plethora of fast Mach Punch resists that the tier has adapted to it with to easily punish it. Its prominence on ladder is also less representative of its overall viability than one may think, considering its underwhelming tournament performances thus far. While still amazing, it remains merely a great A-ranked Pokemon for the time being.

Mega Pidgeot A- -> A
This thing’s main problem is its lack of usage in both tournaments and on the ladder. It has certainly improved since Rotom-W’s departure, though it’s hard comparing it to anything else residing in A at the moment due to both lacking the usage necessarily needed to prove its worth and disliking the popularity of Pokemon such as Mega Manectric and the rising Nihilego.

Mega Houndoom B+ -> A-
Mega Houndoom is a very potent cleaner, as is evidenced by its B+ ranking. The main thing preventing it from a rise is that several of its good responses to metagame trends are offset by arguably more lackluster responses. It can prey on the popularity of Mega Aggron and Amoonguss, though it dislikes Choice Scarf Volcanion’s surge in viability, is pretty easily picked off by Azumarill and Breloom, and doesn’t love the dominance of both Hydreigon and Mega Altaria. Right now B+ is perfectly representative of its current worth due to this.

Empoleon B+ -> B
Empoleon is still a very valuable pick in the metagame on account of the wide variety of special attackers it can stand up against. While it may not appreciate the popularity of several Fighting-types, the utility of checking the likes of Primarina, Mega Pidgeot, and Choice Scarf Dragon-types is currently too valuable to pass up, especially considering that the builds Empoleon is fitted on can otherwise struggle to take the aforementioned threats on.

Celebi B -> B+
Celebi has deserved the love it’s been receiving more recently, though it still remains a fairly awkward Pokemon to both build around and use. It has to carefully adjust its moveset to cover as many threats as possible, though it still ends up missing out on vital targets in the process, those targets often being Hydreigon and Latias unless it wants to forgo running Psychic-type STAB attacks. The rise in usage of Fire-type Choice Scarf users and the plethora of faster Pokemon that can revenge kill it are also problems relevant enough to justify that for now, our little grass onion stays in B.

Mega Abomasnow C+ -> B-
Mega Abomasnow’s biggest problem is how heavily it competes with Breloom as a Grass-type Swords Dance user with secondary STAB-boosted priority. Breloom’s key ability to take on Pokemon that heavily pressure Mega Abomasnow, such as Infernape, Cobalion, and Scizor, alongside a better movepool and access to Spore gives it a lot more current worth, while the metagame’s recent adaptation to Breloom’s presence in the form of more frequently using Fire-types has severely hindered Mega Abomasnow as well.

This update was fairly large, so a few less important changes were left out under the mindset that they'd likely be included in the next update a little while from now, so don't worry if you had a nomination that didn't seem to receive any attention from us. Now, without further ado, here are this time's discussion points!

Discussion Slate

Serperior A+ -> A
Serperior is still among the tier’s deadliest sweepers, though that can’t stop it from being an awkward Pokemon to try abusing in the metagame. The Fire-, Flying-, Poison-, and Dragon-types that have seen more frequent usage to combat Breloom arguably hinder Serperior more due to its lack of a way to work around them without running into severe movepool issues, while it also isn’t appreciating some of the increased general viability of the likes of Chandelure, Mega Pidgeot, Amoonguss, and Mega Aggron. All of its current struggles bring a drop into question, though it still has a devastating offensive prowess and is most definitely a centralizing force.

Klefki A- -> B+
Klefki is a pivotal Pokemon on offensive Spikes builds, though those are unfortunately quite lackluster in the current metagame. Mega Aggron is also rising as both a Pokemon it can heavily struggle with and as something that gives it competition as a bulky Steel-type with a much better offensive presence. Its ability to check Latias extremely reliably Prankster Thunder Wave still providing great utility could rationalize maintaining its current rank, however.

Hippowdon B+ -> A-
Hippowdon is seeing increased usage on balanced builds as a result of its ability to stand up to a lot of currently threatening Pokemon, some being Nihilego, Krookodile, Cobalion, Infernape, Choice Scarf Dragon-types, and many more. Slack Off is also proving to give it a key defensive edge over its main competitors in Krookodile and Swampert. The main problem it runs into, however, is its vulnerability to the tier’s ever-present Grass- and Water-types, which could definitely rationalize staying B+.

Mega Blastoise B -> B-
Mega Blastoise has a lot currently working against it. It’s very vulnerable to metagame staples such as Mega Manectric, Breloom, and Serperior, and failing to 3HKO Azumarill with any of its commonly run attacks means it can risk giving up free turns to arguably the tier’s best Pokemon at abusing free turns. Its ability to force out the likes of Gliscor, Stakataka, and Hippowdon could keep it from lowering, though the arguments for a drop to B- are more compelling than ever.

Kommo-O B- -> B
The ranking council was relatively torn on this one, so it’s only fair that it’s made a discussion point. The current arguments for Kommo-O rising on being made on the basis of its better opportunities for setup as a Dragon Dancer over Haxorus, which could suggest that both are about as viable of offensive Dragon-types in the current metagame.

Crawdaunt B- -> C+/C
The ranking council was fairly divided as to whether or not Crawdaunt deserved to drop further, so I decided that some community input would be valuable. The arguments for dropping remain the same, though what may warrant staying in B- is possibly remaining more consistent and worth using than what sits in the ranks below, some examples being Entei and Mienshao.

Chesnaught C+ -> C/C-
Chesnaught rose to C+ a while ago on the basis of its good matchup against Trick Room teams. Since then, Trick Room viability and popularity has died way down, and Pokemon that Chesnaught can check, like Crawdaunt and Doublade, have fallen off while Pokemon that pressure it like Chandelure, Volcanion, and Crobat have increased their overall viability. It just struggles a lot more due to the increase in usage of several things that pressure it, which makes a drop worth looking into.

Kabutops C -> C-/UR
Kabutops’s niche as a suicide lead is also possessed by Pokemon like Azelf and Froslass, which can prove to consistently bring more to the table. It’s also severely lacking in usage both in tournament and ladder play, and doesn’t appreciate the lessened viability of the offensive archetypes it’s most often fitted on.

Mega Slowbro is also a Pokemon you should feel free to discuss, meaning that we have plenty of things worth posting about ;) Thanks for reading and for your contributions! Be kind to one another, and happy posting!

 

[Jade]

Serperior to A: Lol no.

This mon is still great. Recent meta trends aren´t in its favor, but its still a threat every team should prepare for. Ive been enjoying Meadow Plate Leaf Storm + Giga Drain, a decent stallbreaker and annoys fat teams, plus beats Cune, unlike Leaf Storm sets, which get PP stalled. Do not drop.

Klefki to B+: Agree.

What Freshgamer said, spikestacking is kind of awkward right now and Klefki is a bit weird to use. The massive influx in defoggers didnt help it at all. Drop this thing.

Hippowdon to B+: On the fence.

Hippowdon is very bulky and is a good Mega Manectric check, but its passiveness is very hard to ignore. It also has trouble running Toxic/Whirlwind on one set. Still a good mon, though. Neutral.

Mega Blastoise to B-: Agree.

This mon is seriously awkward to use, even more than Klefki. Its hard to justify using over other Water types like Primarina and Tentacruel, the former of which has better wallbreaking capabilities and the latter has Spin as well as a better defensive typing. Drop.

Chesnaught to C or C-: Agree.

I forgot this mon was even ranked at all. I have no idea why you would use Chesnaught over other Grass or Fighting types even though it does well against Trick Room, lots of mons do. Again, spikestacking is weird atm, so Chesnaught should drop as well.

Kabutops to UR: Agree.

Was mainly used as an HO Suicide Lead with Weak Armor + Spin + Rocks, but its just terrible with the influx of the new defoggers and only good for role compression. Just use Azelf.

 

[Pat Labor]

Kommo-O B- -> B agree
A large movepool and excellent stats in every aspects. You can do what you want with Kommo-O, SubBD, Mixed, Mixed DD, DD, SD, mixed SD, Automized or Spec in fact you can choose your checks and counters.
In a more defensive way, Kommo-O's bulk and typing let him handing various threats like scizor, breloom, crawdaunt, cobalion, sharpedo, infernape or beedrill to set up SR and to punish U-turn with RH. Overcoat is a good ability in a metagame with mushrooms even the totem form is useful. The extra weight gained by Totem Kommo-O reduces damages taken by Heavy Slam which is nice.

 

[Pokeregionz]

A+ -> A Disagree
Even tho meta trends werent it its favor, its still a great pokemon. It checks Azumarill, Scizor, A-Muk (with sub up), and most water types.
Definitely a scary mon if at + 2 aswell. It does struggle with coverage moves but it does fine without it.

A- -> B+ On the fence
Dont really know if it should drop. Yes, spike stack teams have definitely dropped in usage and one of the best pokemon on it imo (Mega Sharpedo) died down in usage. No reliable recovery hurts it a lot. But, being able to cripple faster pokemon with twave, being a switch-in to common threats like Lati, Dreigon, Gengar, Nihilego, etc. Set/clear hazards

B+ -> A- Agree
This is a switch in to a lot of the tiers physical attackers and electric types. Acess to reliable recovery in Slack Off, Setting hazards, and punishing defoggers like Mantine with toxic.

 

[Morsel]

(In response to) It's crazy 95/180 physical bulk paired with recovery makes even the most powerful physical attackers fear it. While it's special defense isn't too great, it has Calm mind which makes it more powerful and more specially durable. Very very good mon and I could potentially see this mega becoming unhealthy and being banned again but only time will tell and the meta is very new

All you have done is list the general positive characteristics of Mega Slowbro that is common knowledge without making any connection to the metagame itself. Listing its physical bulk as a reason for it to rise, for example, is not a good argument because you have not stated any reason why this bulk is beneficial in this metagame. Specifically, what does this bulk allow it to do in particular versus other physical tanks such as Mega Aggron? How do the traits of mega slowbro set itself apart from its competition? General statements such as "it has regenerator and high bulk" are meaningless unless supported by evidence (replays and reasons for why its positive traits are useful).

 

[DurzaOffTopic]

Durza's thoughts on the Discussion Slate

Serperior A+ -> A Agree
I agree with this nomination. Serperior's initial power is so low that you'd really just want to use something that can hit harder off the bat in a metagame filled with pivoting and constant switching. It wants more coverage than it has and it wants to run more sets than it really can run effectively.

Klefki A- -> B+ Agree
Even if spikestack teams were not on the decline, I don't think Klefki sees enough usage to warrant an A- rank. I find it incredibly one dimensional and while it is decently reliable at its job it is not very consistent in keeping them up longer battles versus balance due to lack of longevity, while the teams it is using generally stack up well against offense anyway. While it is a very effective Latias check there are better utility options. Not to say that Klefki is ineffective at its job - it gets them up and annoys team very well, but I don't think its useful enough to stay at A-.

Hippowdon B+ -> A- HARD Agree
Hippowdon is actually amazing and I didn't even realize this was as low as it is. In a tier where Mega Manectric is flourishing (I might argue that Mega Manectric is S rank if it weren't so one dimensional itself), this Pokemon can switch into it all day and keep itself healthy with Slack Off, while providing Rocks and incredibly useful chip damage with Sand Stream and that really adds up. It's also an amazing blanket check to physical attackers and I really hate facing this thing in battle.

Mega Blastoise B -> B- Agree
Mega Blastoise just has too high of an opportunity cost to be useful, as well as just being overall weak compared to a lot of Megas in the tier. I wouldn't use it.

Kommo-O B- -> B Agree
This Pokemon is a BEAST. It has so many sets and all of them have something in common: They can end games or just flat out break teams to pieces. Dragon Dance, SubSalac Belly Drum, and even SD SR are all extremely potent sets and I'd go as far to say that this is B+ material, thought 2 of its sets are heavily reliant on Z moves.

Crawdaunt B- -> C+/C Leaning Agree
Its a good pokemon, but unfortunately it has such a terrible speed tier and lack of bulk that prevents it from setting up. Also, Dragon Dance Crawfaunt is NOT a good set. Don't use it. The only worthwhile set is Swords Dance.

Chesnaught C+ -> C/C- Agree
Man, this thing is BAD. I wouldn't even use it in RU. Sure, its a great Stakataka and Crawdaunt check, so is Bulletproof Kommo-o, but that doesn't make it good.

Kabutops C -> C-/UR Agree
Man this thing doesn't really do anything, its just outclassed at every role it has.

 

[vivalospride]

It's 3 am so I'm gonna make this quick but I saw something that caught my eye...

Crawdaunt to C+/C: NAH FAM
I don't actually know what happened to recently to make this mon worse... ig w/ the TR hype dying down I can kind of see it. But with the dropping of Mega Slowbro, this mon only gets better. Now I'm not saying it's a hard counter to slowbro or anything and I'm also not saying this mon is super good, but it definitely does not deserve a drop. Most Mega Slowbros run what... Psyshock, Scald, Ice Beam, Slack Off, Cm, etc... it really doesn't do much to daunt mang. Now just to show off Daunt's power:

252 Atk Life Orb Adaptability Crawdaunt Knock Off vs. 252 HP / 216+ Def Slowbro-Mega: 172-203 (43.6 - 51.5%) -- 96.5% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock

252 Atk Choice Band Adaptability Crawdaunt Knock Off vs. 252 HP / 216+ Def Slowbro-Mega: 196-232 (49.7 - 58.8%) -- 98.4% chance to 2HKO

This thing is a physical attacker that beats Mega Slowbro...

 

[guan123]

Is that with or without the weakened BP (Mega stones can't be removed). Yes, Crawdaunt bashes stall and fat pokemon. The problem is that stall has several ways of dealing with it and Crawdaunt doesn't do particularly well against faster pokemon who can KO it (and survive an aqua jet). I know it hits like a truck, but there are many ways to dispose of it and Crawdaunt should drop further to C+. MBro coming down makes it better but not enough to prevent the drop.

So that this is not a one-liner, I support the Klefki drop. Yes, it lays spikes and can check many pokemon. The problem is that the spikes can be quite easily removed by the defoggers and Klefki does not have reliable recovery, so it gets worn down quickly without wishpassers. Last I checked spikestack isn't doing so well, so Klefki should drop with it. Also, Gengar and Latias can trick klefki a choice item, making it nearly useless and reducing its value as a Gengar/Latias check. Klefki to B+ , please.

Also, could you tell me what Mega Absol, Toxicroak, and Cofagrigus are doing in B-? I've never seen them in action.

 

[adamant excadrill]

Serperior A+ -> A rank: Agree
The mad usage of Amoongus and Assault vest Alolan Muk really kinda hinders this thing. Most scarfers have a way of pressuring and forcing it out (in particular fire type scarfers like Infernape and Chandelure). Serperior also faces competition as a grass type late game cleaner with Breloom which has a way of dealing with common fire type scarfers (chandelure cannot switch into spite not rock tomb and infernape pretty much dies to plus two Mach punch). Other common scarfers that check serperior obviously include scarf hydreigon (great mon rn) and latias which serp cannot do much tou outside of the rare dragon pulse. Also being pressured out by mega pidgeot and checked by mean mane unless behind a sub sucks and Mega aero outspeeds it. While it’s speed tier is great it just does not outspeed common threats and falls flat sweeping vs some teams due to said faster mons.
Personally I think Serperior would fit fine in A rank seeing how I personally think that it can compete and be just as good as current A rank mons that are just as meta game defying if not slightly better than Serp is right now and seeing as how Serp just is not as good right now compared to current A+ mons. Also in A rank, Cobalion is able to take any one hit from Serp, Mega aggron is in the same boat as Cobalion or I guess in the same category, and Alolan Muk out right walls Serp and as said before scarf Infernape pressures Serp.
Most A+ mons either outspeed it or just out right wall it (amoongus and Altaria). On top of all this, scizor pressures serp since BP does a ton, Sap Sipper Azu walls to hell and back, As said before Lati revenge kills and pressures heavily unless serp is dragon pulse, and though serp can set up on Gliscor, Gliscor can 2 hit KO serp on the switch with facade. Serp has just seen better days in all honesty seeing as how a ton of top threats have ways of pressuring it out or outright taking more than up to one or two hits from its boosted and I boosted lead storms.
Overall serp has dreams of becoming a top tier threat in which it once was but has a ton of nightmares currently going for it in the current meta game (nice meek mill reference there if you didn’t get that

)

 

[hariyana grande]

Would just like to nominate Swellow to at least be ranked on the vr, prob around C though

I've been using this thing lately (just the specs version tbh) and it feels so satisfying to mindlessly click boomburst when i look at every other team that doesnt have a switch in to it. It actually just 2hkos so many things in the tier and if your opponent doesn't have a sturdy steel type or a blissey, you are pretty much free to spam your stab 140 bp move thanks to swellow's ability.

When discussion of swellow comes up, most people just bring up mega-pidge and claim how it does everything better. While this is mostly true, as pidge has a consistent strong flying stab, isnt choice locked (obv), and can set up sweeps with the work up set, the fact it does not have a strong normal type move is relevant when taking into account things like raikou as it can be a clean answer to pidge. Swellow ofc does not take up a mega spot. Swellows paper thin defenses open it up to just simply getting ko'd by common priority moves such as cb bp from scizor or mach punch loom to just name a few.

Not really gonna discuss the flame orb set cause I've never used it, (nor am I even sure if it's viable down here tbh) just my thoughts on it's specs set as I think it's solid because of the fact some teams simply fold to a specs boomburst from such a speedy mon.