CAP 24 CAP 24 - Part 4 - Primary and Secondary Ability Discussion

[Pipotchi]

Just wanted to paste my thoughts from discord:

Here's the benefits I see Sand (by extension I mean Sand Stream Tyranitar as the most viable setter) doing for CAP24, rather than what CAP24 can do for Sand:

Tyranitar is switching into key poison type checks and counters and beating them- also being able to chip them with pursuit to eventually wear them down. This applies to Mollux and Plasmanta. Other mons like Venusaur and Pyroak hate sand being up, allowing CAP24 to put lasting damage on them when they switch into its attacks thanks to dampening their form of recovery. Tyranitar's Stone Edge obliterates the few typings that are going to resist CAP's supposed coverage (fire/something types). Furthermore, sand adds a speck more damage on the end of CAP24's moves to help turn 2hko's to ohkos.
Less relevant, Tyranitar may lure certain Steel types and hit with an appropriate move such as Fire Punch in order to disallow them to revenge CAP24 later.


Focusing on the main takeaways/paths-

1) Sand helps to sweep. If this mon runs a Sand Rush set focusing on sweeping, Tyranitar is helping it twofold by providing the sand to activate its ability and also removing some key Pokemon in its way to allow CAP24 to fulfil its role as wincon.

2) Sand helps to wallbreak. Tyranitar removes some key poison types that allows this Pokemon to fire off STAB moves. If this Pokemon has an ability that boosts these STAB moves for instance Adaptability, it becomes freed up to spam these moves and wallbreak, while sand also provides an extra boost of damage to that. Adaptability also fits nicely for a mon that might benefit from Shore Up which seems to be the key sand abusing move, allowing it to takes hits and becoming even more of an issue for weaker defensive Pokemon.

I think the key to making it a non-sand ability will be asking what the sand setter Tyranitar can do for it. This ensures it may get used with sand as opposed to just being successful outside- instead of trying to slot this Pokemon into a sand team which doesnt necessarily deserve usage in the first place let alone support. After that, we can start thinking about additional abuse in sand such as aforementioned Shore Up, or moves to benefit Excadrill or the team. If this mon can be heavily viable and ALSO ttar is a fantastic support pokemon for it, sand will be allowed an opening to become relevant and expanded on. This should not be the support pokemon for Tyranitar or Excadrill as its primary role.

Flash Fire is good, but sand does less for it than it does for sand in return. Im assuming this mon is going to be aiming to be more viable than Ttar or Excadrill, so putting it on sand might be shrinking its role. Im not mad at it at all because it fits the checklist nicely, but I can see this mon getting used for sand when you start the teambuilding process by choosing sand first, which is rare. Might be worth making it a case of picking CAP first and then sand being a great support to it.

Sand Force is a boot imo, didnt mind it as much before but if we arent getting ground coverage due to Toxapex this ability is so questionable. Its not even good on mons that get Ground Rock and Steel as STAB moves... the boost is very minimal. its key strengths is its ability to beat our counters toxapex and pyroak, so i dont see why that would be ideal at all

 

[snake]

So, a major question of this phase is "why would I use Sand?", and the now closely attached question of "why wouldn't I use Sun?" A Pokemon with the typing of CAP 24 and with Drought is likely to be very splashable, which makes this something of an arms race between Sun and Sand if the Sand ability is to be seen at all. One reason to use Sand would be that Sand does well against Sun, and one reason to use non-Sun CAP 24 would be if non-Sun CAP 24 does well against Sun teams--which leads directly into suggesting Flash Fire. Flash Fire would allow CAP 24 to do very well against Drought CAP 24 as well as becoming the very best switch into the most dangerous Sun Pokemon, Volkraken. It is this ability to switch into dangerous things like Blacephalon and Volkraken that give Flash Fire the edge over other, more discussed excellent choices such as Trace. It would also simplify teambuilding for Sand immensely by removing the need to have an additional Water or Dragon type to take on Volkraken. It would preserve the great matchup against Heatran that is one of the best features of Trace, and further solidify CAP 24 as a great "glue" Pokemon for Sand.

Just wanted to paste my thoughts from discord:

Here's the benefits I see Sand (by extension I mean Sand Stream Tyranitar as the most viable setter) doing for CAP24, rather than what CAP24 can do for Sand:

Tyranitar is switching into key poison type checks and counters and beating them- also being able to chip them with pursuit to eventually wear them down. This applies to Mollux and Plasmanta. Other mons like Venusaur and Pyroak hate sand being up, allowing CAP24 to put lasting damage on them when they switch into its attacks thanks to dampening their form of recovery. Tyranitar's Stone Edge obliterates the few typings that are going to resist CAP's supposed coverage (fire/something types). Furthermore, sand adds a speck more damage on the end of CAP24's moves to help turn 2hko's to ohkos.
Less relevant, Tyranitar may lure certain Steel types and hit with an appropriate move such as Fire Punch in order to disallow them to revenge CAP24 later.


Focusing on the main takeaways/paths-

1) Sand helps to sweep. If this mon runs a Sand Rush set focusing on sweeping, Tyranitar is helping it twofold by providing the sand to activate its ability and also removing some key Pokemon in its way to allow CAP24 to fulfil its role as wincon.

2) Sand helps to wallbreak. Tyranitar removes some key poison types that allows this Pokemon to fire off STAB moves. If this Pokemon has an ability that boosts these STAB moves for instance Adaptability, it becomes freed up to spam these moves and wallbreak, while sand also provides an extra boost of damage to that.

I think the key to making it a non-sand ability will be asking what the sand setter Tyranitar can do for it. This ensures it may get used with sand as opposed to just being successful outside- instead of trying to slot this Pokemon into a sand team which doesnt necessarily deserve usage in the first place let alone support. After that, we can start thinking about additional abuse in sand such as aforementioned Shore Up, or moves to benefit Excadrill or the team. If this mon can be heavily viable and ALSO ttar is a fantastic support pokemon for it, sand will be allowed an opening to become relevant and expanded on. This should not be the support pokemon for Tyranitar or Excadrill as its primary role.

I agree with these analyses for the sand slot. Flash Fire is a very nice ability to have, as allows CAP24 to switch into Heatran, Volkraken, etc. and tackle opposing Sun teams. It would NOT appear on Sun teams, as Sun teams would vastly prefer to set up Sun. Teams that need a solid check to sun would appreciate it, though. Trace does this effectively against Heatran only, which would preserve many of the CAP24's checks and, more importantly, Pyroak as a full counter.

Sand Rush is probably the most effective Sand Ability we have access to. I disagree with the notion that CAP24 would always compete with Excadrill for teamslot. I'm sure that sometimes you could pick one or the other, but both is certainly an option. Given that Sand has the resources to run a full team like Rain, think about how Rain teams are built. It used to have 2 Swift Swim abusers, but Ash-Greninja usually beats Kingdra out of a teamslot. Kingdra isn't competing with Mega Swampert.

Not exactly sure about Adaptability at the moment, but it could be a nice way to boost damage would going too crazy. Fairy-type STAB is strong, but Grass-type STAB not so much. I'll have to do some calcs to be sure about this one.

EDIT:
Sand Force is looking pretty bad. We're looking at boosting Flash Cannon, Hidden Power Ground, Weather Ball, and Power Gem, and potentially Earth Power if we gimp our Special Attack stat not to be too powerful for the threatlist. I'm pretty convinced that Earth Power stands no chance on being in the movepool if we go with Sand Force, though. There are so many better abilities being discussed that are just simply better. The buffs that Sand Force provides are pretty trivial, so it's almost teetering towards being a flavor ability. Sand Force shouldn't be chosen simply because we're worried about residual sand damage / a slight buffs to a couple of niche moves. If Pokemon were unviable on sand teams because they took residual damage, then Sand teams would be made up of a bunch of Rock, Steel, and Ground-types, which isn't the case.

 

[CharSiuEmboar]

Adaptability allows for 1.3* neutral damage with STAB vs Toxapex. You can decide whether or not that is too much to consider.

 

[Frostbiyt]

I agree with these analyses for the sand slot. Flash Fire is a very nice ability to have, as allows CAP24 to switch into Heatran, Volkraken, etc. and tackle opposing Sun teams. It would NOT appear on Sun teams, as Sun teams would vastly prefer to set up Sun. Teams that need a solid check to sun would appreciate it, though. Trace does this effectively against Heatran only, which would preserve many of the CAP24's checks and, more importantly, Pyroak as a full counter.

Sand Rush is probably the most effective Sand Ability we have access to. I disagree with the notion that CAP24 would always compete with Excadrill for teamslot. I'm sure that sometimes you could pick one or the other, but both is certainly an option. Given that Sand has the resources to run a full team like Rain, think about how Rain teams are built. It used to have 2 Swift Swim abusers, but Ash-Greninja usually beats Kingdra out of a teamslot. Kingdra isn't competing with Mega Swampert.

Not exactly sure about Adaptability at the moment, but it could be a nice way to boost damage would going too crazy. Fairy-type STAB is strong, but Grass-type STAB not so much. I'll have to do some calcs to be sure about this one.

EDIT:
Sand Force is pretty bad. We're looking at boosting Flash Cannon, Hidden Power Ground, Weather Ball, and Power Gem, and potentially Earth Power if we gimp our Special Attack stat not to be too powerful for the threatlist. I'm pretty convinced that Earth Power stands no chance on being in the movepool if we go with Sand Force, though. There are so many better abilities being discussed that are just simply better. The buffs that Sand Force provides are pretty trivial, so it's almost teetering towards being a flavor ability. Sand Force shouldn't be chosen simply because we're worried about residual sand damage / a slight buffs to a couple of niche moves. If Pokemon were unviable on sand teams because they took residual damage, then Sand teams would be made up of a bunch of Rock, Steel, and Ground-types, which isn't the case.

Flash Fire wouldn't really benefit CAP in a way that lines up with the checks and counters listed in the OP. For sand teams, the only fire user we want CAP to beat is Heatran. Of course, Flash Fire would be very useful for this matchup, but CAP is already supposed to beat Heatran in the sun, so however it does that should be viable in sand as well. So Flash Fire isn't necessary to beat Heatran. On the pressure/threaten list Flash Fire would allow CAP to counter M-Char X and A-Marowak. Other than that though, the other two fire users, M-Mawile and Celesteela, also carry stronger steel moves that could take out CAP so Flash Fire doesn't help much against them.

On the other hand, Flash Fire also allows CAP to better counter Pokemon that are supposed to check or counter it. M-Char Y, Volcarona, A-Marowak, and the aforementioned Pyroak would all be less able to check or counter CAP, especially if CAP also carries a rock move, such as weather ball.

As for sun teams, while it would probably be less common than Drought, Flash Fire would likely be used on sun teams. It is just so much better in the sun than on sand. CAP's fire weakness is such a big hindrance in the sun, that removing that weakness would be invaluable even with sub-par setters. You may disagree or I may be wrong about that, but I think the other stuff I said is more significant than this last paragraph.

 

[Deck Knight]

So I'd like to discuss the main reason we're avoiding Earth Power in assumptions of ability effectiveness, and that's interactions with Toxapex. There's a problem with that, because CAP can already beat Toxapex with any decent level of breaking power. And by decent, I mean 115 Base SpA and Choice Specs allows Sun CAP's Solar Beam to 2HKO Toxapex. Toxapex at this point NEEDS to run Sludge Wave to counter CAP, because it cannot possibly keep up with CAP if it is trying to stall it out. It *will* lose. It does better against a Grassium set and a little better against Life Orb, but again that only applies if we're abandoning any sort of breaking potential. 115 is not a "breaking" level offensive stat.

I bring this up because I'm trying to game out the Sun vs Sand mirror match. If Sand CAP has strong incentive to run Weather Ball, Sun CAP will not switch in because with the weather change from Rock to Fire, Sand CAP prevents Sun CAP from switching in. Sun CAP will run coverage for Heatran anyway, so the question becomes what would a viable set under each look like.

What I find somewhat disingenuous about this discussion is the panning of Fairy + boosted Ground coverage. In every CAP process we gush about how good Fairy + Ground is, but all of a sudden this CAP it's trivial? Fairy + boosted Rock is also significant in what it allows CAP to beat. Fire + Fairy is not that good for coverage, Mollux, Volkraken and Charizard Y beats it easily, SpD Pyroak will be able to handle the heat and KO back, and even Blacephalon is unlikely to be OHKO'd by it though it isn't switching in.

If Sand CAP runs Fairy + Rock + Ground coverage because of Sand Force, it will be materially different from Sun CAPs Fairy + Fire + Grass. Would there still be overlap? Probably, because Giga Drain or something like Leaf Storm in Sand covers a few things like bulky waters Sand otherwise has trouble with, and Sun CAP might run Earth Power over something like Focus Blast because EP won't miss 30% of the time.

Note: I am only assuming these coverages because they would be the primary benefit of the abilities we are considering for CAP. I don't think Sun CAP should have a rock coverage option stronger than Hidden Power because it lets it beat ZardY too easily. ZardY or Heatran should be the go-to counters against Sun CAP depending on its HP or other coverage move. It it goes Ground or Fighting, ZardY cleans up. If it goes Rock it has to deal with a neutral hit on Heatran. This isn't an attempt to poll jump, but I am basing a lot of this on the errant notion that we're preserving Toxapex as a counter if we gimp future Ground coverage in our assumption of ability effectiveness. Sand Force is VERY effective if you can get the full benefit of Fairy + Rock + Ground coverage, and in our mirror match that Rock coverage (Weather Ball) makes Sun CAP 24 a liability in CAP 24 is on both teams.

Sand Force in this sense makes Sand CAP materially different in function vs Sun CAP, and the power boost will allow it to run different items. Sun CAP doesn't have much incentive to run Choice Scarf when it wants to run Heat Rock or a power boosting item. Sand CAP however would revel in Choice Scarf as it provides a mid-speed option between Sand's usual threats and Excadrill and it can net a KO on Ash-Gren easily without an absurd speed tier.

 

[snake]

Flash Fire wouldn't really benefit CAP in a way that lines up with the checks and counters listed in the OP. For sand teams, the only fire user we want CAP to beat is Heatran. Of course, Flash Fire would be very useful for this matchup, but CAP is already supposed to beat Heatran in the sun, so however it does that should be viable in sand as well. So Flash Fire isn't necessary to beat Heatran. On the pressure/threaten list Flash Fire would allow CAP to counter M-Char X and A-Marowak. Other than that though, the other two fire users, M-Mawile and Celesteela, also carry stronger steel moves that could take out CAP so Flash Fire doesn't help much against them.

On the other hand, Flash Fire also allows CAP to better counter Pokemon that are supposed to check or counter it. M-Char Y, Volcarona, A-Marowak, and the aforementioned Pyroak would all be less able to check or counter CAP, especially if CAP also carries a rock move, such as weather ball.

As for sun teams, while it would probably be less common than Drought, Flash Fire would likely be used on sun teams. It is just so much better in the sun than on sand. CAP's fire weakness is such a big hindrance in the sun, that removing that weakness would be invaluable even with sub-par setters. You may disagree or I may be wrong about that, but I think the other stuff I said is more significant than this last paragraph.

I completely disagree with your last paragraph entirely. We just had an entire discussion about how current sun setters are terrible and that’s been reinforced by the fact that we gave CAP24 Drought. CAP24 isn’t going to be on a Sun team without Drought. Additionally, I made a post about how boosting Fire coverage doesn’t matter when we’re already weak to Fire. Essentially, most OHKOs become better OHKOs. As for the other paragraphs, I might address them when I have access to my computer again, but this claim about Flash Fire being used on Sun teams is false.

EDIT:

https://www.smogon.com/forums/threa...bility-discussion.3630559/page-5#post-7727585

This is the post; DLC’s below it also addresses the same topic

 

[Yay61]

Whilst I do like Trace, Sand Force is still something I could get behind. Regardless of ability, Cap 24 is already likely to be effective on sand due to its good typing and presumably decent movepool and stats. This means that even though sand force provides only little extra power and durability, it still helps Cap 24 do its job. Many pokemon don’t even have useful abilities and still thrive and so I don’t think it’s necessary to dismiss options because they don’t do enough. Sand Force is an ability that will help us achieve our goal, even if it is just through strengthening weather ball and mitigating sand damage.

 

[reachzero]

So I'd like to discuss the main reason we're avoiding Earth Power in assumptions of ability effectiveness, and that's interactions with Toxapex. There's a problem with that, because CAP can already beat Toxapex with any decent level of breaking power. And by decent, I mean 115 Base SpA and Choice Specs allows Sun CAP's Solar Beam to 2HKO Toxapex. Toxapex at this point NEEDS to run Sludge Wave to counter CAP, because it cannot possibly keep up with CAP if it is trying to stall it out. It *will* lose. It does better against a Grassium set and a little better against Life Orb, but again that only applies if we're abandoning any sort of breaking potential. 115 is not a "breaking" level offensive stat.

Aside from the blatant poll jumping here (who says we will give this Solar Beam?), it would be silly to assume that Toxapex is downgraded from "counter" to "not even a check" on the basis of Specs Drought with Solar Beam--even if CAP 24 gets Solar Beam (which might be disallowed for exactly that reason), CAP 24 will probably not always run Solar Beam because it isn't optimal type coverage with its Fairy STAB. This means that Toxapex is at least a hard check to CAP 24, and there is no reason to assume it would not be a full counter for the Sand set. To assume that because one set (Drought with Solar Beam) can beat Toxapex every set should then be allowed to beat Toxapex is ridiculous. I'm not opposed to Sand Force as an ability, but I feel that this argument for it is misguided.

 

[Deck Knight]

Aside from the blatant poll jumping here (who says we will give this Solar Beam?), it would be silly to assume that Toxapex is downgraded from "counter" to "not even a check" on the basis of Specs Drought with Solar Beam--even if CAP 24 gets Solar Beam (which might be disallowed for exactly that reason), CAP 24 will probably not always run Solar Beam because it isn't optimal type coverage with its Fairy STAB. This means that Toxapex is at least a hard check to CAP 24, and there is no reason to assume it would not be a full counter for the Sand set. To assume that because one set (Drought with Solar Beam) can beat Toxapex every set should then be allowed to beat Toxapex is ridiculous. I'm not opposed to Sand Force as an ability, but I feel that this argument for it is misguided.

Sand Force was getting panned in part because of a counterbalancing poll jump assuming it could not be used to its full potential. Drought was voted in and Grass/ Fairy selected because of its interactions with Sun as a whole.

The point of my post was to correct that imbalance with some basic theorymoning using other implied assumptions about effectiveness. Toxapex still hard checks or defensive counters a ton of CAP Sets, in fact pretty much all of them except for a potential Grassium or Groundinium set and Specs. But I needed to set a bad inference straight.

 

[Frostbiyt]

I completely disagree with your last paragraph entirely. We just had an entire discussion about how current sun setters are terrible and that’s been reinforced by the fact that we gave CAP24 Drought. CAP24 isn’t going to be on a Sun team without Drought. Additionally, I made a post about how boosting Fire coverage doesn’t matter when we’re already weak to Fire. Essentially, most OHKOs become better OHKOs. As for the other paragraphs, I might address them when I have access to my computer again, but this claim about Flash Fire being used on Sun teams is false.

EDIT:

https://www.smogon.com/forums/threa...bility-discussion.3630559/page-5#post-7727585

This is the post; DLC’s below it also addresses the same topic

I'll put my response to this post in a spoiler so it's not clogging up the thread:

Hide

The examples in your post only include powerful fire types that get STAB. Fire type coverage from non fire types boosted in sun is dangerous as well. Using the same 100/100/100 Defenses as in your post:

Calcs

Clear Weather:
252+ Atk Huge Power Mawile-Mega Fire Fang vs. 0 HP / 0 Def CAP: 268-316 (78.5 - 92.6%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

252 SpA Tapu Lele Hidden Power Fire vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD CAP: 132-156 (38.7 - 45.7%) -- 13.3% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Choice Specs Tapu Lele Hidden Power Fire vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD CAP: 196-232 (57.4 - 68%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

252 SpA Choice Specs Latios Hidden Power Fire vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD CAP: 196-232 (57.4 - 68%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

Sun:
252+ Atk Huge Power Mawile-Mega Fire Fang vs. 0 HP / 0 Def CAP in Sun: 402-474 (117.8 - 139%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252 SpA Tapu Lele Hidden Power Fire vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD CAP in Sun: 198-234 (58 - 68.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Tapu Lele Hidden Power Fire vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD CAP in Sun: 294-348 (86.2 - 102%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

252 SpA Choice Specs Latios Hidden Power Fire vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD CAP in Sun: 294-348 (86.2 - 102%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

Not the best examples, but I got tired of doing calcs after so many went from "guaranteed 2HKO" in no weather to "guaranteed 2HKO" in sun. Like you said in your linked post, 100/100/100 defenses is pretty generous, so the calcs that I showed will likely not be the ones where there is actually a difference in X hits to KO. My point though is that CAP would need to worry a lot more about fire coverage in the sun than it would otherwise.

Also, Fire moves are going to be thrown around more often in the sun anyways. So even though Heatran, for example, would OHKO CAP regardless of whether sun is up or not, it's going to be much more likely to use a Fire move in the sun, which makes it more dangerous to switch in CAP.

I do think Drought would be a lot more commonly used than Flash Fire, but the fact that it would be uncommon would make Flash Fire CAP in sun more useful. If your opponent expects your CAP to be running Drought because the rest of the team is a typical sun team, they're not going to worry about using fire attacks. Then you switch in CAP when you predict a fire attack and get a free switch with a boost to your fire attack(s). It would also be a good counter to other fire teams. I'll admit that it's gimmicky, but it's not completely unviable.

CAP could get a steel move instead of ground in order to take advantage of Sand Force. It would give it a move to counter Bulu with and wouldn't really do much to the Pokemon we want to check/counter CAP.

To add to what reach said, Sand Force CAP would never run solar beam, while it would run a ground move in sand if available. So even if CAP could counter Pex in the sun, that doesn't necessarily mean it could in sand too.

 

[Mr Holiday]

For what it's worth, I have to agree with Deck Knight: I don't think it's appropriate to disregard Sand Force based on the assumption that CAP 24 will never get good/viable moves to take advantage of it. We can run thought experiments and make calculations based on what we think are reasonable assumptions all day long, but the fact is, we don't know what CAP 24's stats are going to be like, and we don't know what it's move pool is going to be. What we do know is that CAP 24 is supposed to abuse Sand (and Sun, but that's taken care of), and it needs to be a wall breaker. Sand Force fulfills those requirements. Now, is it the best possible choice? I don't know. I'm personally not convinced it is, though I do believe it's better than a few other options that have been tossed around. That being said, I think Sand Force deserves serious consideration. It has flaws, but it also does quite a few things we want it to do.

I can also get behind Sand Rush, though at must grumble about Chlorophyll losing out by such a large margin for Primary ability, just for us to consider the same Ability, but in Sand lol. Griping aside, Sand Rush does seem like a solid wall breaking Ability, as evidenced by Excadrill. That being said, I feel like it puts us into dangerous territory when we get to Stats, in terms of giving it enough Speed to help Sun, without giving it so much Speed it becomes broken in Sand. I'm not saying this will happen, just that it could.

As for the other Abilities suggested so far...none of them really scream "Sand" to me. Maybe i'm being narrow minded, but to me, abusing a weather means, you know, taking advantage of it. Yeah, many of the Abilities suggested do things we want CAP 24 to do, but in mind my at least, none of them really abuse Sand. That being said, I do see the logic behind Tinted Lens. I worry it might give some of our checks/counters a hard time, but it would also go a long way toward helping our wall breaking endeavors.

 

[CharSiuEmboar]

Are Defiant, Dancer, Unburden and Refrigerate that awful that they can't be discussed?

Sand Rush: in Sand Teams, we are wanting to Counter a slowish Prankster User, only have tk worry about HPIce from Scarf Lando-T, Slow Tapu Bulu who we resist everything off, and Heatran. There is no need whatsoever for for Sand Rush to take downour threats.

Sand Force: Adaptability and Tinted Lens: we want to do additional damage to things that resist us, and are intended to Counter CAP24? Why would Sand Force be boosted to take on Tapu Bulu only, when it does nothing to help us against our other targets we already have STAB against? Ice hits 3 targeted Counters SE, and Fighting takes down oldmate Heatran in case of Air Balloon (so no need for ground anyway).

Unburden brings Speed boost, as well as boosting a move like Acrobatics to beat Tomohawk and Tapu Bulu. It shore up (heh) a weakness against Water type, not only through its typing, but as a legitimate use of the Absorb Bulb to stack its special attack high, and act as a secondary sand setter when its sweep is coming to an end.

Dancer uses Common Set Up Moves of our Targets and on the threaten lists to maintain a status quo, without affecting tbose whl target CAP24. This can work by both supporting the weathers by being able to switch into those who set up on passive set up mon.

Defiant there are several Intimidators and Defoggers within CAP24's pressurizing lists. Sand appreciates having stealth rock support (such as Hippowdon) providing Chip etc, and if a mon is going to Defog, then out pops CAP24. Another setter is Excadrill who doesn't appreciate Landorus-T being able to remove his Rocks, and presurize him out with EQ. Defiant allows the switch in to have no effect, and hit back harder.

Refrigerate: boosts the Ice Coverage to centralize any counter to the 3 Ice weak mon and opens up a BP 120 through Frustration/Return: this allowsbthe STAbs to be STABs.

 

[CharSiuEmboar]

I have no idea what I mean with STABs to be stabs, was writing tired. There is only 1 4x Weak Ice type we are targeting. The others are reasonably fat and only 2x without STAB. Hence, the power boost of a Frustration over Ice Beam, and the 20% additional damage comes in handy there. The Sand team has a weakness against those mon, and are defined targets: Refrigerate allows that to happen without stretching 4MSS to breaking point as we try to target our chosen threatens, being neutral against Kartana, Steela, Cawmodore and 3 Mon we want to counter. Refrigerate empowers moves against nearly 50% of the 11 mons identified on that list that otherwise would not be affected as well by our STABs, without needing Fighting, Electric, Dark, Fire, and STABs to threaten.

Sand Rush is irrelevant to hit our Targets slow speed, and Adaptability doesn't do as much to counter our chosen counters as Refrigerate does.

 

[david0895]

Are Defiant, Dancer, Unburden and Refrigerate that awful that they can't be discussed?

Not exactly: they simple don't do more in the Sand than outside it, also some of these are situational only to specific threats that we wnat to beat

Anyway, I'm starting to thinking that there's not a really good ability for the Sand since they are all situational or difficult to balance:
- Flash Fire is pratically limited to Heatran and CharX
- Trace has same utility both in and out the Sand
- Sand Force is very dangerous with Ground coverage, but we can simply ban it
- Sand Rush will complicate the stats creation, since we have to avoid some KOs even with the +atk/spa natures

Out of this, Sand Force seems to be the easiest choice to balance, but I prefer to have other opinions on this

 

[TKGriffiths]

Can someone give me a list of what they're actually intending to hit with the Sand Force boosted coverage moves? I want individual pokemon. I have a feeling this will demonstrate how poor this ability actually is.

 

[CharSiuEmboar]

Flash Fire resists CharY too, so no go there.

There is no requirement for the move to perform better in Sand. Koko works excellently in Rain, but doesn't directly improve its ability in the Rain. If the move is that drastic an improvement in the sand, then than either becomes broken, or makes it worthless outside of sand if we balance around the assumption that sand is up.

What does Trace actually do? The way Beast Boost and Intimidate Work, they don't provide any utility other than against specific mon, to make use of Prankster, it needs to have a status move, so it grts status healing. It might pick up Volt Absorb, who only rarely getd placed with Thundurus. Everyone seems to be leaning to Special, so tough claws does jack, and it actually benefits from Regenerator, so that Toxapex is a now actually improving its chances of staying alive.

And Sand Force, we can balance, by giving it a Steel Move to make it hit hard against one single threat, while the weather is up, because we can't use Ground, because Tpex, and Rock coverage is less effective than HP Ice or STAB.

And Sand Rush does nothing to hit our chosen targets.

I'm not sure what CAP actually gains.

 

[david0895]

Can someone give me a list of what they're actually intending to hit with the Sand Force boosted coverage moves? I want individual pokemon. I have a feeling this will demonstrate how poor this ability actually is.

A lots of the mons in the threatlist suffer the Sand Force boost, I will use a 120 spa example w/out Ground coverage:
- vs bulky Heatran:
252 SpA Life Orb Whimsicott Hidden Power Ground vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Heatran: 307-364 (79.5 - 94.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Life Orb Sand Force Whimsicott Hidden Power Ground vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Heatran in Sand: 400-473 (103.6 - 122.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO

- vs Charizard X:
252 SpA Life Orb Whimsicott Hidden Power Ground vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Charizard-Mega-X: 185-218 (62.2 - 73.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Life Orb Sand Force Whimsicott Hidden Power Ground vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Charizard-Mega-X in Sand: 239-283 (80.4 - 95.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock and sandstorm damage

- vs Cawmodore (in case Fire coverage will not be allowed):
252 SpA Life Orb Whimsicott Power Gem vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Cawmodore: 136-161 (56.1 - 66.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Sand Force Whimsicott Power Gem vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Cawmodore in Sand: 177-209 (73.1 - 86.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

- vs Kartana (same as Cawmodore):
252 SpA Life Orb Whimsicott Hidden Power Ground vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Kartana: 194-229 (74.6 - 88%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Life Orb Sand Force Whimsicott Hidden Power Ground vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Kartana in Sand: 251-296 (96.5 - 113.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

-vs Marowak-Alola:
252 SpA Life Orb Whimsicott Hidden Power Ground vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Marowak-Alola: 192-229 (59.4 - 70.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Life Orb Sand Force Whimsicott Hidden Power Ground vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Marowak-Alola in Sand: 250-296 (77.3 - 91.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock and sandstorm damage

About Toxapex and Pyroak:
252 SpA Life Orb Sand Force Whimsicott Power Gem vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Pyroak in Sand: 216-255 (48.7 - 57.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock, sandstorm damage, and Leftovers recovery
0 SpA Pyroak Lava Plume vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Whimsicott: 210-248 (80.4 - 95%) -- 50% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
Counting the LO recoil Pyroak easily checks it

252 SpA Life Orb Sand Force Whimsicott Hidden Power Ground vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Toxapex in Sand: 117-140 (38.6 - 46.2%) -- 18.8% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock, sandstorm damage, and Black Sludge recovery
Not enough

 

[Pipotchi]

I have no idea what I mean with STABs to be stabs, was writing tired. There is only 1 4x Weak Ice type we are targeting. The others are reasonably fat and only 2x without STAB. Hence, the power boost of a Frustration over Ice Beam, and the 20% additional damage comes in handy there. The Sand team has a weakness against those mon, and are defined targets: Refrigerate allows that to happen without stretching 4MSS to breaking point as we try to target our chosen threatens, being neutral against Kartana, Steela, Cawmodore and 3 Mon we want to counter. Refrigerate empowers moves against nearly 50% of the 11 mons identified on that list that otherwise would not be affected as well by our STABs, without needing Fighting, Electric, Dark, Fire, and STABs to threaten.

Sand Rush is irrelevant to hit our Targets slow speed, and Adaptability doesn't do as much to counter our chosen counters as Refrigerate does.

Adaptability does not have to do anything to our counter list to be successful, because all of these are beaten in the movepool stage. Every single one of these targets drop to fire, fairy, fighting, rock coverage. What I mean is that I dont think that we need to introduce anything wild as our intended coverage already spreads across all of these threats- maybe not in the same moveset, but ice coverage also does not grant that. But it does provide a lot of relevant calcs anyway, it lets moonblast do this with 105 spa (which imo is the sweet spot for drought since it keeps us in line with our counter list outside of solarbeam for toxapex):

adaptability

252 SpA Adaptability Whimsicott Twinkle Tackle (175 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Landorus-Therian: 396-466 (103.6 - 121.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
guaranteed ohko without having to run a life orb and take sand chip also

252 SpA Adaptability Whimsicott Moonblast vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Tomohawk: 428-508 (103.3 - 122.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
guaranteed ohko without needing debilitating item

252 SpA Adaptability Whimsicott Moonblast vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Charizard-Mega-X: 204-242 (68.6 - 81.4%) -- 50% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

252 SpA Adaptability Whimsicott Moonblast vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Zygarde: 376-444 (105 - 124%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252 SpA Adaptability Whimsicott Moonblast vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Cyclohm: 480-568 (114.2 - 135.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252 SpA Adaptability Whimsicott Moonblast vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Latios: 328-388 (108.9 - 128.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252 SpA Adaptability Whimsicott Moonblast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Latios-Mega: 308-364 (102.3 - 120.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252 SpA Adaptability Whimsicott Moonblast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Pajantom: 328-388 (106.1 - 125.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252 SpA Adaptability Whimsicott Moonblast vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Garchomp: 408-484 (113.9 - 135.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252 SpA Adaptability Whimsicott Moonblast vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Garchomp: 408-484 (97.1 - 115.2%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO

these are the kinds of mons i would be wanting to get rid of with this CAP, so seeing adaptability give it guaranteed reliable ohkos is very relevant, especially without the need of any kind of item that further chips us down (life orb in sand is not so smart) or locks us in. This mon becomes free to run fairium-Z.

Looking at the same mons without fairium-

other

252 SpA Whimsicott Twinkle Tackle (175 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Landorus-Therian: 297-349 (77.7 - 91.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery (25% to ohko with rocks)

252 SpA Whimsicott Twinkle Tackle (175 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Landorus-Therian: 297-349 (93.1 - 109.4%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO (could get hit by continental crush or ssss)

252 SpA Whimsicott Moonblast vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Tomohawk: 320-380 (77.2 - 91.7%) -- 25% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock, sandstorm damage, and Leftovers recovery (could get hit by air slash)

252 SpA Whimsicott Moonblast vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Charizard-Mega-X: 153-181 (51.5 - 60.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and sandstorm damage (could get hit by flare blitz)

252 SpA Whimsicott Moonblast vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Cyclohm: 360-426 (85.7 - 101.4%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO (could get hit with fire blast)

252 SpA Whimsicott Moonblast vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Latios: 246-290 (81.7 - 96.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (could get hit with psyshock)

252 SpA Whimsicott Moonblast vs. 0 HP / 0- SpD Latios-Mega: 254-302 (84.3 - 100.3%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO

252 SpA Whimsicott Moonblast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Pajantom: 246-290 (79.6 - 93.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 SpA Whimsicott Moonblast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Garchomp: 306-362 (85.7 - 101.4%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO

252 SpA Whimsicott Moonblast vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Garchomp: 306-362 (72.8 - 86.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

So Adaptability puts in the work by not needing any chip, SR support, or item like LO (which makes us get wrecked by all the accumulating chip damage and definitely not thrive in sand) or specs(which should be a non-option so we can utilize shore up) to get the job done, at the least this should be worth something if we dont go down the route of Sand Rush. All of these mons have offensive potential to smack us back very hard if they dont get finished off, so its relevant plus has the generic worth of granting the most powerful spammable fairy type move available in the tier

 

[TKGriffiths]

Heatran Charizard X

Drought CAP needs to threaten these as well so it cannot rely on the sand ability to do it. Also on the subject of Charizard X, with your 120 SpAtk:

252 SpA Life Orb Whimsicott Moonblast vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Charizard-Mega-X: 218-257 (73.4 - 86.5%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock and sandstorm damage

Marowak-Alola Toxapex Pyroak

These are things we DON'T want to beat, not what I asked for. (Let me expand about Marowak-Alola if you missed the point - we're talking about a sand team here. Tyranitar and Excadrill easily defeat Marowak-Alola)

Cawmodore Kartana

Like you said, fire coverage hits these better. Even HP Fire. You also demonstrated that it doesn't help against Cawmodore. Also, with your 120 SpAtk again:

252 SpA Life Orb Whimsicott Moonblast vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Kartana: 230-270 (88.4 - 103.8%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

 

[Reviloja753]

O

What does Trace actually do? The way Beast Boost and Intimidate Work, they don't provide any utility other than against specific mon, to make use of Prankster, it needs to have a status move, so it grts status healing. It might pick up Volt Absorb, who only rarely getd placed with Thundurus. Everyone seems to be leaning to Special, so tough claws does jack, and it actually benefits from Regenerator, so that Toxapex is a now actually improving its chances of staying alive.

Okay. First of all, Beast Boost snowballs against any Pokémon, so I don’t know what you’re talking about. Secondly, Intimidate may only work against Lando itself, but I don’t see how that’s exactly a bad thing when 1. Some of our checks are physical. 2. Lando is literally the most common Pokémon in the tier. As to the Volt Absorb point, you failed to mention Magnezone and Plasmanta, who always run an Electric-type move. This discourages them from using it, helping out Pokémon that are weak to Electric, such as Tomohawk (which is a possibility for Sand mind you). Regenerator only works one time, as abilities reset when you switch out. Also, Toxapex was frankly a shaky counter to begin with because it only can Toxic CAP24.

 

[david0895]

Drought CAP needs to threaten these as well so it cannot rely on the sand ability to do it. Also on the subject of Charizard X, with your 120 SpAtk:

252 SpA Life Orb Whimsicott Moonblast vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Charizard-Mega-X: 218-257 (73.4 - 86.5%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock and sandstorm damage



These are things we DON'T want to beat, not what I asked for. (Let me expand about Marowak-Alola if you missed the point - we're talking about a sand team here. Tyranitar and Excadrill easily defeat Marowak-Alola)



Like you said, fire coverage hits these better. Even HP Fire. You also demonstrated that it doesn't help against Cawmodore. Also, with your 120 SpAtk again:

252 SpA Life Orb Whimsicott Moonblast vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Kartana: 230-270 (88.4 - 103.8%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

Outside Heatran, all the mons that I listed needs to be threatened, so they have to feat the KO, but this is not strictly necessary.
Cawmodore is the clearest example: taking an extra 20% of damage reduce its chance to enter on the field.
All the others fear Sand Force CAP24 because they pass from taking a 2HKO and then KO it, to a direct KO

These are things we DON'T want to beat, not what I asked for.

Pokemon we want to pressure/threaten:
Mega Mawille, Mega Charizard X, Cawmodore, Ash Greninja, Kartana, Marowak-Alola, Celesteela

Dammit I forgot the Mawile calc

 

[Deck Knight]

The biggest targets of Sand Force relevant coverage are a better matchup against Heatran, Pyroak, Mollux, Volkraken, and Crucibelle specifically. These Pokemon easily switch into Fire + Fairy and Grass STAB, and Sand's focus on Rock and / or Ground coverage gives them pause. Remember our discussion for Sand was a breaker Pokemon. Sand Rush and Sand Force both facilitate that role to different degrees. Sun CAP has strong incentive to run Fairy + Fire coverage at the very least. Giving CAP different options even through just a stronger Hidden Power option differentiates it. Pyroak should be to our Sun set what Celesteela is to our Sand if we truly want to preserve hard checks or situational counters. To the extent other mons get wrapped up in that it's unfortunate but we're not going to encounter A-Wak on a generic team, it will probably be Fidgit Trick Room. There are many sweepers in CAP and OU whose counters are matchup dependent at the set level. That's usually part of the reason they are OU / CAP threats.

TBH ideally I'd like to see our CAP put its strengths in ability and stats and use movepool to make this a uniquely weather abusing mon because of move mechanics. Part of that is not limiting imaginations over phantom self-imposed restrictions.

 

[CharSiuEmboar]

O
Okay. First of all, Beast Boost snowballs against any Pokémon, so I don’t know what you’re talking about. Secondly, Intimidate may only work against Lando itself, but I don’t see how that’s exactly a bad thing when 1. Some of our checks are physical. 2. Lando is literally the most common Pokémon in the tier. As to the Volt Absorb point, you failed to mention Magnezone and Plasmanta, who always run an Electric-type move. This discourages them from using it, helping out Pokémon that are weak to Electric, such as Tomohawk (which is a possibility for Sand mind you). Regenerator only works one time, as abilities reset when you switch out. Also, Toxapex was frankly a shaky counter to begin with because it only can Toxic CAP24.

Beast Boost can only be traced if it comes in against Celesteela; a mon that 4x Resists Grass, 2x Resists Fairy, and gets hit Super Effectively by its Heavy Slam. So we switch into Celesteela to "pressurize", and hope that our Fire Coverage kills it before Heavy Slam and Chip damage kills us. Good plan.

Trace switches into Lando, gets Intimidate, and then what? Intimidate works on Switch In, not when the opponent switches in. Lando has SSSS; you need a defense score of 386 to survive that at -1, let alone if it's got an SD up, while HP Ice isn't a guaranteed kill until mid 130's. If we have Trace, we can just send out CAP24 every time Toxapex gets put into play, nab Regenerator, and heal up. Next time Pex is out, switch in old mate CAP24, get Regenerator, heal up. I've got to agree that I don't beleive that Toxapex should be listed as a Counter, but it's there, so that's what we're playing. Feel free to have a message with the Project Section Lead if you disagree or need the reasoning.

You're correct, I didn't mention Volt Absorb alongside Cawmodore, because Cawm is not used with them, and the only real electric type user alongside Cawm is Thunderus-T, and that's mostly T-wave - and as to the other Volt Absorb users, they do not appear on our threat list; other than Plasmanta who is rocking a Poison-type in any case, and resists both of our STABs, and we're not running Ground or Psychic because of that. And what Electric type is spamming Electric Moves against a Sand team in any case?

So, again, can you give a good example of where Trace does something useful, without benefitting from Counters?

Fairy STAB takes down Char-X, Ash-Greninja, Tomohawk*
Grass STAB; targets nothing on the Sand Threat/Counter list
Ice Coverage is what takes on;
- 4x; Landorus-T
- 2x; Tapu Bulu, Tomohawk*,
- Neutral**; Cawmodore, Kartana, Celesteela

*; Fairy STAB hits harder, but it makes it harder to switch into
**; When neither STAB has SE

This means that out of the threat/counter list for Sand, we need to isolate Heatran, Mawile-M, and Marowak-A. Incidentally, Ice can hit neutral vs Excadrill (but in Sand, Excadrill outspeeds) and Mega Pinsir (who has boosted SE STAB priority, and is dealt with better by other Sand Team members like TTar). The only one of the CAP24 Threats is Fidgit, who rocks a 4* Sludge Bomb, so that defines our Speed Cap pretty handily.

Ice, and thus, Refrigerate, is thus pretty perfect for hitting a good 46% of our intended threatens, including 3 of the who participate on a Sand Team, as it boosts the ability, gives greater Stat freedom, as we're no longer limited to running low accuracy physical moves or Special, thus opening up Sun's lack of physical.

 

[Reviloja753]

Celesteela isn’t the only thing with Beast Boost, you know. Kartana or even Buzzwole or Blace (shakier but can come in on Shadow Ball) give us Beast Boost and have some viability to them. Also, Ice coverage is pretty pointless aside from blasting Landoge. I’m slightly open to Ice coverage down the line but Refrigerate is simply a waste of a slot imo. Cawn and Steela are hit with either a Fighting or Fire move (if we get a non weather ball one) to hit them neutrally or SE. We also resist anything Bulu typically runs, so it isn’t like we struggle against Bulu much. If we get recovery or just have enough power and speed, we will outdamage Bulu eventually.

As a short tangent, can we all stop pretending CAP24 isn’t going to be special? Tomohawk is basically Physical Chansey but even more of a hellish nightmare. Pajantom was specifically made to beat Tomohawk, and even with that Attack stat and Brave Bird, it still struggles against it! I don’t think making another physical “counter” to Tomo is wise, and I certainly know Reach agrees with me on that.

 

[Drew]

Just a reminder that discussion closes in around 12 hours, so if you would like to post get it in by around 10:15 p.m. EST!