Resource USUM OU ULTRA Viability Ranking Thread

[MFJK]

I'll try and give my thoughts on the nominations that have been posted lately but for now I just wanted to make a few noms:

→ B+
Charizard X is a very slep-on pokemon that is actualy a very anti-meta threat that deserves a rise imo. I think the metagame is changing in a way that Zard X appreciates with Balance being the most dominant playstyle and it wrecking through the most common Ferrothorn + Clefable cores. People have been using the 3 Atks set more as it is really good at wallbreaking but I think DD is just its best set. This game from Smogon Tour very well illustrates how underprepared teams are against this set and how threatening it can be with the right support. This set can take advantage of pokemons like Kartana, Tapu Bulu and even Landorus-T and Heatran before mega evolution and use them as set-up fodders, and then proceed to break the most common team structures at the moment.

→ B-
I am making this nomination again, which, I think, should be having more impact now since the metagame is changing in a way it really appreciates and it has been rising a bit in usage on the tournament scene as of late as a consequence. Just like it's X counterpart, it appreciates metagame trends such as the drop in usage of Toxapex and Mantine, the rise of trappers like Tyranitar and Weavile making it easier to check Mega Lati@s and to build around this pokemon, as well as the very high usage of Grass Types like Kartana and Tapu Bulu and cores like Ferrothorn + Clefable + Heatran which Zard-Y can take advantage of. Personally, I don't think Zard-Y should ever have dropped all the way to C+ rank and the Pex usage wasn't enough of a reason to justify that imo. I could easily see that mon rising to B in the future. There are plenty of examples of Zard-Y being effective in recent tours such as this game and this one from WCoP.

→ ranked
Pyukumuku is a key pokemon in the classic Trosko Stall that has seen a huge amount of success in both SPL and OST so I believe it being ranked in the viability ranking should reflect that. What it offers to Stall is a sturdy unaware user that is able to take strong hits but also to trap pokemons with Block and PP Stall them and/or kill them with Toxic + Soak which is what separates it from Quagsire. The Trosko Stall featuring Pyukumuku can be seen in action in this replay from SPL, as well as this more recent one from OST. The last one especially shows how dangerous Pyukumuku can be. As for its potential rank, I think somewhere between C and C- (C- most definitely) would be adequate.

As for other noms, I'll talk briefly about some in this post and make another post later. I agree with most of them, mainly Gliscor, Mega Lati@s, Mew, Zygarde and Weavile. For potential changes, I share Indigo's sentiment about Mega Alakazam and will probably talk about it in my post later. I also think pokemons like M-Pinsir, M-Diancie and Bulu (SD) could rise in the future. Also, does anyone think Ttar should go back to A+? It's been rising a lot in usage lately with Reuni and Mega Latis being so common and also offers insurance against pokemons like Tran and Tornadus-T. Both Band and Scarf are really good and synergize very well with common pokemons like Tornadus-T, Landorus-T and Heatran and is seen on various playstyles including BO and Balance. I wanna hear some thoughts from you guys. more coming.

As I said in my last post, I'm gonna give my thoughts on some of the recent nominations and maybe add some of mine later:

- Starting off with Tangrowth and I agree with this pokemon rising. As already pointed out, the reason why Tangrowth dropped originally was because of pokemons like Pinsir and Lele being ran very commonly, giving a hard time to Tangrowth and people prefering to run AV Tapu Bulu due to it's ability to better take on Lele and pokemons like Ash-Greninja. Although Tapu Bulu is still a very good pokemon, it doesn't outclass Tangrowth as it possesses some unique qualities over otyher Grass-types including it's access to Regenerator, a pretty cool movepool with moves like Knock Off, Earthquake and Sludge Bomb, as well as a very good physical bulk, allowing it to better check physical attackers like Landorus-T, Zygarde and Gliscor. In fact, there aren't really metagame trends that significantly improved Tangrowth's viability but it is definitely ranked too low for what it provides to a team. It makes for a respectable option on bulky offense and I think that's kind of what separates its niche from bulu's: because of it's ability to durably check special attackers like Koko and Gren as well as Ground-types like Zygarde and Gliscor better than Bulu would over the course of a match. Tangrowth won't get overwhelmed easily thanks to Regenerator and is also always gonna be surrounded with a secondary Gren resist (Fini or Clef for example).

- I said in my last post that I'd talk about this mon so here we go. M-Zam has been getting a lot of traction, being used in many of the most recent tour games, and for good reason. It's really a fantastic mon thanks to it's amazing speed tier that allows it to outspeed the entire unboosted metagame, a Psychic-type that allows it to beat mons like pex and Venu, as well as a mind-blowing Special Attack stat. I think this mon should rise because it can take advantage of many metagame-defining pokemons at the moment such as Clefable, Heatran, Toxapex, as well as non-draco meteor M-Latios. The fact that it can take advantage of those mons means that it can match-up very well against Balance which is the most common playstyle at the moment, being able to break through Clefable + Ferrothorn + Heatran/Gliscor cores with not much difficulty, especially when paired with pokemons like Gliscor and Lele which have all been rising lately. I think another reason why it should rise is because it's really easy to fit on a team since it appreciates the company of common mons like Gliscor, Ferro, Torn, Clef, and other rising threats like Fini while also providing utility itself. More people have been running Recover and HP Ice on Zam, which are both really good moves on it. The former gives it more longevity which is great as it easily takes advantage of mons like Clef and Tran and the latter can surprise both Zygarde and Gliscor. Here are some replays of it in action: 1 2

- This is quite delicate of a subject since some good arguments have been presented on both parts, even though I'm leaning towards it dropping to A rank. I'm not gonna write a lot on it since vso covered most of the stuffs. AV Magearna struggles because of pokemons like Gastrodon being as good as ever, meaning that it can't grab momentum as well. It's also always gonna need to choose between Ice Beam, HP Fire and Energy Ball for it's fourth move, which means that it's always gonna be missing on some stuffs. The SG set is also gonna struggle at sweeping as it's pretty much gonna need Z-Fleur + Focus to not lose to Gastro & Tran, but that also means it won't be able to hit Pex and Scizor among other mons, meaning that it won't be doing much in those matchups.

These are the nominations I wanted to give my thoughts on. I didn't want to touch other noms like Lele and Mamo since I don't think I have enough personnal experience with those mons to provide valuable thoughts even though I think they're fine where they are.

~~
​

Now, some nominations of mine:

→ B
Tapu Fini had already been nominated for a rise in the past but didn't end up rising. I didn't think I would support Fini at any point in the meta because of it's obvious flaws: it being quite passive, not having recovery and not being as reliable as a defogger; but the way the metagame is changing is actually one that favors Fini. Balance being the main playstyle in this meta is pretty good for Fini as it's able to mess with mons like Clefable, Toxapex, Gliscor, Heatran and Zygarde with the combination of it's STABs, Nature's Madness and Taunt. It's actually not a bad defogger sas it can defog on Clefable and Heatran which is very good. It provides amazing utility with Misty Terrain which prevents status on grounded pokemons, making it a great partner for set-up sweepers like Zygarde and M-Scizor, as well as trappers like Ttar and Weavile which I enjoy pairing with Fini to trap bulkier mons like Gastrodon. Overall, it makes for a pretty good choice on Bulky Offense teams to disturb Balance teams while also being able to take on mons like Ash-Gren, Heatran and Zygarde to an extent. It should always be paired with a secondary check to those mons such as Tangrowth for example, to make up for its lack of recovery. This replay (that I already linked above) shows how troublesome it can be to deal with this mon.

→ B- or C+
I honestly don't know why this mon has stayed in B for this long since litteraly every metagame trends seem to be going against it: Gastrodon being as good as ever, the common use of Grass-types like Ferrothorn, Tapu Bulu, Kartana and Tangrowth, Toxapex still ebing really good, the rise of CM Reuniclus and CM M-Latias, and the recent rise of Tapu Fini are all trends that affect Suicune very badly. As a result, this mon has seen absolutely 0 use in the most recent tours. Personally, I'd just never afford to run this mon on any team since it'd need insane amount of support to even work, and doesn't provide much utility in return.

That's all for my nominations but I also wanted to talk briefly about some mons which, I believe, deserve more discussion.

has been starting to get explored a bit more lately (not always with success though) with its 3 Attacks + Slack Off set. It's a pretty anti-meta threat with its coverage that allows it to hit a lot of stuffs and it's also very customizable with options like Fire Blast, as well as a fantastic physical bulk, allowing it to deal with mons like M-Medicham pretty easily. It pretty much possesses the same role as 3 Attacks M-Latias but it can check Ground-types better and also has Regenerator before Mega evolution. It fits pretty well on Balance and works very well with Hazards and trappers like Weavile. I could easily see it rising to C+. Some replays of it in action: 1 2. I also think

deserves more discussion: it's a very dangerous mon with most teams relying on Zapdos and Landorus-T as their Flying-resist. It's a really anti-meta threat that can mess with Balance and I could very easily see it rising to A.

 

[Lemon Ginger]

C- to C+

Yeah so mega alt is pretty good right now imo. There are two main sets that I think are any good. DD+Cotton guard sweeper and bulky special with earthquake.

The former is honestly pretty stupid because of how you just win on matchup. You setup in face of basic stuff like zyg, non-SD landos, ttar, bulu, even rain and then just click return. It's stupid easy to trap with zone and the currently great heatran is a really effective partner, so it's not hard to fit into a team. Everytime altaria gets in, the opponent's switch is super telegraphed, because of how they can't let it get to +2. With how much use zygarde is getting right now it's pretty free to just go for the hardswitch and click cotton guard. The special set (roost, hypervoice, fireblast, EQ/cottonguard) just baits out all the steels like mScizor, kart and zone that they inevitable go to and also nicely bops zygarino through sub. Can also live +2 Hawlucha acro if you're desperate.

I don't think mAlt can ever exist above B-ish rank while scarf kartana is a thing (especially DD+3 attacla sets), but it's nice at the moment for taking advantage of the physical precense in the tier.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-765615187

 

[vso]

I can safely say I disagree with most of what is in this post.

but lets take it one step at a time: First off, your comparison with mega mawile

you say that mega mawile has is "far more consistent than bisharp," and yet you say that bisharp struggles against all these common pokemon


How is mega mawile any different? Isn't the Play rough/SD/sucker punch/knock off set that supposedly outclasses bisharp also have trouble with all of these pokemon commonly found on offense? How is bisharp much different, aside from dying to a speedy superpower bulu? And even then mega mawile is far from safe considering things like cb wood hammer or z-wood hammer, getting killed by both of those after just ~20% chip.

I mean almost every flaw you call bisharp out on also applies to mega mawile (gets pressured by wisp tran, zapdos, gliscor) and almost every boon you say mawile has also applies to bisharp (sets up on choice locked gren, cb kartana (just not locked into fighting move), clefable, tangrowth, and "much more.")

Not to mention Bisharp has this fantastic ability called DEFIANT, which mega mawile does not! This ability can punish defog, punish webs, and even punish smaller things like moonblast, making it a very real risk to even attack with clefable when bisharp is on the opposing side (funny that you mention bisharp must take chip damage to set up on clefable as well) This clearly separates bisharp from mawile, and it is not as outclassed as you believe it to be. That is WHY it fits into hazard stacking/webs teams in the first place as you so eloquently pointed out.

And finally, Bisharp is being nommed up to B-, and I honestly think mons like tapu fini, jirachi, and hippo belong in B just for the rankings to be consistent. Mega Mawile is A-. That is a huge difference, and obviously bisharp is worse than mega mawile. Bisharp is just fine in B- for being a high risk, high reward pokemon that fits into webs and hazard setting styles.

Speaking of which:




Well yeah, no shit. hazard stack/webs teams are going to have more balance breakers than just bisharp.
Judging from all these points you made, especially the last one, I just feel like you've never actually built with and used bisharp before.


So now to move on to why your magearna nomination is flawed as well.

I first of all am confused as to why the rise in zygarde and heatran (which have had consistent usage for months now, no real rise here) is suddenly a bad thing for magearna. None of these pokemon are safe switch-ins, hell, neither of these are even gauranteed to 1v1 magearna. Non-cb zygarde or groundium-z wont ohko with thousand arrows and will die to offensive ice beam, and Max hp/max speed heatran won't kill magearna after rocks gauranteed and will die to z-focus blast.

But more importantly, this little gem


How the hell is vest magearna doing what grass types are used to do? Aside from baaarely ferrothorn, no other grass type is put on a team to check pokemon like mega alakazam, mega latios, tapu lele, protean greninja, ash greninja, kyu-b, torn-t, weavile and probably more shit i'm missing all in one slot. From a teambuilding perspective, it is honestly ludicrous to think that av magearna faces competition from grass types.

The rest of your post goes into detail about how magearna is supposedly strapped for moveslots, and you explain that magearna needs all of these moves to hit all of these potential checks. But what confuses me is why is this a bad thing?

I mean, isn't it a very, very good thing that magearna can pick and choose what it beats? Why are you punishing magearna for its versatility? It's not as if it REQUIRES all 7 moves it could run in order to properly function, it can bring fleur cannon/volt switch for AV sets and leave the last 2 open for whatever the team can't do. I think that you're looking at this in a vacuum, and you're failing to notice that any supposed trouble or weaknesses that magearna has can simply be moved around by whatever moves it decides to run. The fact of the matter is that magearna can work around almost all of its supposed checks, and only very niche pokemon like jirachi can really claim to wall magearna, and thats not even stopping volt switch.

You also mention how it needs chip on common mons like ferro, tran, and steela, but yeah, what cleaner doesn't? Do you expect ANY late-game sweeper to be blasting through its checks at full health? Even your precious zygarde needs chip on common mons like clefable, lando-t, tapu bulu, and tangrowth to be cleanly sweeping with standard dd z-move sets, and WP dd doesn't break past other checks like healthy mew or curse mzor.

Yes, zygarde doesn't have any counters either, but thats because it can CHOOOOOSE what it wants to beat!! Much like Shift Gear Magearna!! You dont see people shitting on subtoxic zygarde for failing to break through clefable, because they also know that WP destroys it! You dont see people calling dd z-thousand arrows zygarde ass for getting stopped by av tangrowth because they also know that dd z-outrage blows that same mon the fuck back. So why are you saying SG magearna is bad? So what if heatran beats calm mind? Z-focus blast kills that! So what if pex walls Z-fairium, Z-tbolt kills that! Even chansey can be overwhelmed by some heat sets like cm+pain split, because if that's what you want magearna to do, then fuck it, it CAN.

The ability to pick and choose which pokemon checks you and have your team handle the rest is what being versatile IS. And I think it's absolutely silly to be punishing magearna for that.

Keep magearna A+, and raise Bisharp to B-
Apologies for the essay

i never meant to make this post but i needed to explain some things which i figured were self explanatory(nothing against you)

firstly on your mega mawile point, mega mawile unlike bisharp is not hard pressured to click sd and actually has a good amount of raw power. this makes it actually do something against offense as it can fire off a free play rough on the grass and helps it be one of the best stallbreakers in the tier. while mawile dislikes wisp tran, gliscor, and zapdos it can knock tran and zap and can play rough gliscor. while defiant is nice, it is the biggest niche that bisharp has and it has no right to be ranked with pokemon like amoonguss and jirachi, and rather mons that define their playstyles like shuckle.

magearna is similar to grasses as they both check tapu koko and ash greninja. however, magearna is extremely prone to be chipped and therefore is not that solid against greninja which can easily chip it down. in addition, many of the pokemon in your list can deal a lot of chip damage to it which include hoopa unbound, tapu lele, protean greninja, tornadus knocks and so does weavile and magearna literally fails to beat recover alakazam.


magearna is most definitely strapped for moveslots in a metagame where non-fleur gets loses all its offensive power and hence
crushed by roost koko(a mon you're always supposed to check which can scout by clicking roost as 0 spa does not ohko , non volt cant gain momentum, non beam loses to gliscor which BLOCKS volt switch and momentum, and is therefore pressured to double. non energy ball also is pressured to double. non hp fire gives ferro and sciz(two extremely prevalent pokemon) the ability to freely spike or boost up which is NEVER optimal. non iron head loses to cm lele.


vest magearna hates zygarde as many vest magearna teams lack super solid counterplay to zygarde as they are not aided by a grass to ease vs this and gastrodon teams have added counterplay to heatran. both of these pokemon have become more threatening and more prepared for in the past couple of months(read: lando + clef/bulu for zygarde and gastro + mlati@s, gliscor + mlati@s, greninja + zygarde for heatran). this means that magearna balance is strapped for ways to deal with these mons and dont keep the momentum benefit and offense admit that magearna is going to get worn down and the team is going to be weak to zygarde/heatran. medicham offense is a prime example of an offense that often(but not always) have replaced magearna for a more commonly used heatran + tapu bulu.

the previous paragraphs were all about vest magearna, and now im going to continue about shift gear. firstly, i never said shift gear was a bad set and in fact its a really good set(and av isnt bad just far less common and not as good as it once was). i want to clear the zygarde vs heatran comparison that you talked about. firstly, sub toxic zygarde is not a set thats solely used as a win condition and has very important defensive utility in checking fires like heatran and volcarona and providing an electric immunity and so do all zygarde sets, to an extent. while you may argue that magearna also checks tapu lele, zygarde has got more defensive utility as magearna can only switch in once. extreme speed zygarde provides teams with priority. in addition, choice band zygarde is a better set than av magearna and can create holes regardless of a super good check or not. zygarde has really stable sets like iron tail substitute leftovers + toxic spikes. the dd z zygarde sets are somewhat comparable to shift gear magearna without this, and that is why i feel as if zygarde is a subrank(if not more) over magearna.

tl;dr- mawile has the raw power that keeps it more consistent than bisharp and vest magearna is extremely prone to being worn down. shift gear magearna is a good set but is a subrank below zygarde because of less defensive utility and consistent sets being worse.

 

[Gross Sweep]

View attachment 123164C- to C+

Yeah so mega alt is pretty good right now imo. There are two main sets that I think are any good. DD+Cotton guard sweeper and bulky special with earthquake.

The former is honestly pretty stupid because of how you just win on matchup. You setup in face of basic stuff like zyg, non-SD landos, ttar, bulu, even rain and then just click return. It's stupid easy to trap with zone and the currently great heatran is a really effective partner, so it's not hard to fit into a team. Everytime altaria gets in, the opponent's switch is super telegraphed, because of how they can't let it get to +2. With how much use zygarde is getting right now it's pretty free to just go for the hardswitch and click cotton guard. The special set (roost, hypervoice, fireblast, EQ/cottonguard) just baits out all the steels like mScizor, kart and zone that they inevitable go to and also nicely bops zygarino through sub. Can also live +2 Hawlucha acro if you're desperate.

I don't think mAlt can ever exist above B-ish rank while scarf kartana is a thing (especially DD+3 attacla sets), but it's nice at the moment for taking advantage of the physical precense in the tier.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-765615187

I’d like to address the nomination by Lemon Ginger calling for the rise of M-Altaria. While I loved the cotton candy dragon in ORAS, in USUM it just isn’t good. In my opinion the difference between C- and C+ is fairly insignificant, but I really don’t see a reason for this thing to rise, even if by a thin margin.

1) I’d like to break this down into 3 sections, the first being what’s going against it in the metagame. Firstly I’d like to address Zygarde. You mention M-Altaria freely switches in, and sets up without a care in the world. However, that’s just not the case, Iron Tail Zygarde has been on the rise for a while now, and it pressures M-Altaria a lot. Going to provide a pair of reference calcs that I’ll be mentioning a bit more going forward:

+1 252+ Atk Zygarde Iron Tail vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Altaria-Mega: 274-324 (77.4 - 91.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

+1 252+ Atk Zygarde Thousand Arrows vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Altaria-Mega: 186-219 (52.5 - 61.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO​

These calcs either replicate DD Zygarde setting up to +1 (on the switch) or simply Choice Banded Zygarde. The first Calc shows a super effective Iron Tail dealing massive damage, and the second shows the equivalent of Banded Arrows 2hkoing. Honestly the calcs really speak for themselves in this case, so I’m not going to discuss this matter further, unless you need more of an explanation on how Zygarde isn’t reliably shut down by M-Altaria.

Another mon that isn’t necessarily good for M-Altaria is Clefable. Clefable can stomach some hits from Altaria, and 2hko max HP Altaria with zero SpA of its own or cripple it with Twave. Another annoying mon is Scarf Greninja who can revenge a +1 Altaria with Ice Beam. Other than those two I’d like to point out steels like Celesteela being extremely annoying for M-Alt. I know you mentioned Magnezone trapping, but trapping is a 50/50 at best since they could in predict you trying to trap. With that I’m going to say is AV Magearna, Celesteela and others make it tough on M-Alt, and leave it at that. There are other mons like Kartana that make life difficult for M-Altaria, but for the sake of time I’m gonna stop as I feel my list has grown long enough.

2) The second section of this post is simply going to be: why use it? The big issue I have with M-Altaria is that I don’t think there is ever a time that I want to use M-Altaria. Altaria is a mon that calls for support since it’s not really something you just throw on a team, it’s more or less something you focus on. When it comes to the special set idk why I’d ever choose to use M-Altaria over something like Tapu Lele besides laddering fun, which is frankly a negative in terms of viability. Then if you shift over to the DD set I see competition as a set up sweeper from Zygarde, Charizard-X, and Gyarados. Other set up mons using methods other than DD such as M-Scizor, Magearna, and Reuniclus also fight M-Alt for playing time. What this section basically boils down to is the only time you’re using M-Altaria is if you’re forcing yourself to, which in turn keeps you from using better mons who could do its job in a better more reliable manner. This is obviously a negative.

3) The third section of this post will be a little commentary on the replay. I will be blunt, this was a bad replay. For starters you’re running a no ground team with a Braviary. Your opponent is using a better team, it’s still not amazing having a rough matchup vs Lele, but it’s not the end of the world. At this point I’m already dissatisfied with the game in front of me, and then the plays actually start. From the horrible turn 1 blunder, to your opponent not reading the obvious psychic, to the early withdrawal of Volcarona, to the horrible misplays with Landorus-T (like seriously I don’t see how you think someone setting up rocks when they already have rocks constitutes a “good” replay that shows how this mon can be effective in the meta at a high level. Honestly this battle turned into the equivalent of a 1200 ladder replay, which just isn’t good enough for a VR nomination. I apologize if this comes off a bit rude, I just take replays seriously as evidence for a rise, so I have to point out bad evidence when I see it.

That’s all I have for the time being. I recently made a bigger post discussing noms, so I’ll hold off until a few more noms are brought up/discussed before I make another large opinion post. Hopefully this settles M-Altaria for the time being though, sorry if it was a little long.

Tl;dr - Do Not Raise M-Altaria

 

[Srn]

i never meant to make this post but i needed to explain some things which i figured were self explanatory(nothing against you)

firstly on your mega mawile point, mega mawile unlike bisharp is not hard pressured to click sd and actually has a good amount of raw power. this makes it actually do something against offense as it can fire off a free play rough on the grass and helps it be one of the best stallbreakers in the tier. while mawile dislikes wisp tran, gliscor, and zapdos it can knock tran and zap and can play rough gliscor. while defiant is nice, it is the biggest niche that bisharp has and it has no right to be ranked with pokemon like amoonguss and jirachi, and rather mons that define their playstyles like shuckle.

magearna is similar to grasses as they both check tapu koko and ash greninja. however, magearna is extremely prone to be chipped and therefore is not that solid against greninja which can easily chip it down. in addition, many of the pokemon in your list can deal a lot of chip damage to it which include hoopa unbound, tapu lele, protean greninja, tornadus knocks and so does weavile and magearna literally fails to beat recover alakazam.


magearna is most definitely strapped for moveslots in a metagame where non-fleur gets loses all its offensive power and hence
crushed by roost koko(a mon you're always supposed to check which can scout by clicking roost as 0 spa does not ohko , non volt cant gain momentum, non beam loses to gliscor which BLOCKS volt switch and momentum, and is therefore pressured to double. non energy ball also is pressured to double. non hp fire gives ferro and sciz(two extremely prevalent pokemon) the ability to freely spike or boost up which is NEVER optimal. non iron head loses to cm lele.


vest magearna hates zygarde as many vest magearna teams lack super solid counterplay to zygarde as they are not aided by a grass to ease vs this and gastrodon teams have added counterplay to heatran. both of these pokemon have become more threatening and more prepared for in the past couple of months(read: lando + clef/bulu for zygarde and gastro + mlati@s, gliscor + mlati@s, greninja + zygarde for heatran). this means that magearna balance is strapped for ways to deal with these mons and dont keep the momentum benefit and offense admit that magearna is going to get worn down and the team is going to be weak to zygarde/heatran. medicham offense is a prime example of an offense that often(but not always) have replaced magearna for a more commonly used heatran + tapu bulu.

the previous paragraphs were all about vest magearna, and now im going to continue about shift gear. firstly, i never said shift gear was a bad set and in fact its a really good set(and av isnt bad just far less common and not as good as it once was). i want to clear the zygarde vs heatran comparison that you talked about. firstly, sub toxic zygarde is not a set thats solely used as a win condition and has very important defensive utility in checking fires like heatran and volcarona and providing an electric immunity and so do all zygarde sets, to an extent. while you may argue that magearna also checks tapu lele, zygarde has got more defensive utility as magearna can only switch in once. extreme speed zygarde provides teams with priority. in addition, choice band zygarde is a better set than av magearna and can create holes regardless of a super good check or not. zygarde has really stable sets like iron tail substitute leftovers + toxic spikes. the dd z zygarde sets are somewhat comparable to shift gear magearna without this, and that is why i feel as if zygarde is a subrank(if not more) over magearna.

tl;dr- mawile has the raw power that keeps it more consistent than bisharp and vest magearna is extremely prone to being worn down. shift gear magearna is a good set but is a subrank below zygarde because of less defensive utility and consistent sets being worse.

Just wanna give a quick reply to some points you clarify

Yes, Mega mawile is far more consistent than bisharp in general bc, as you said, bisharp wants to be at +2 to really be threatening anything. Of course, i think this is already accounted for in the large difference in rank. Mega Mawile is A-, and Bisharp should be B-. I agree that mons like rachi and fini should be higher than bish, but that's bc i think lower tiers need some cleaning up anyway.

It's true that av magearna gets chipped, but frankly, it's MUCH less passive than the other grasses and checks that you mention, seeing as you can customize it with the coverage moves you need like hp fire, energy ball, ice beam, etc. And honestly, its amazing enough that you can condense a solid check to pokemon like huge threats hoopa, tapu lele, weavile, protean gren, and torn all into one not passive mon, those pokemon are so threatening that it's enough to be able to hold them off so you can break their team faster than they break yours.

You spend a lot of time talking about what vest magearna misses out on when it chooses to forego each coverage move, but the fact that that is totally fine is the point I was trying to get across with my post: the ability to choose what your team has to compensate for is awesome. A lot of the defensive cores you mentioned that give AV gear some trouble can be totally torn apart by offensive SG variants or even some more niche stuff like specs or TR. Koko roosting on a magearna that hasn't been scouted in the first place is incredibly risky, and even if it is AV, you might just be giving them a free eterrain boosted volt into their koko check. That seems like such a shaky argument :/

I'm kind of confused about all of these assumptions you seem to be jumping to regarding teambuilding. Why are teams with AV magearna automatically lacking in counterplay to zygarde? There's nothing stopping you from using a grass type with av magearna, you just have to patch up a fire weakness. No big deal, 4 other pokemon to cover it! Secondly, you absolutely don't need a grass type to sufficiently check zygarde. I'd argue some of the best zygarde checks, like curse mzor and wisp ib mew, dont even resist tarrows at all.

As far as SG sets goes, I think it's pretty unfair to say that Magearna only switches into lele once and say zygarde has more defensive utility. Well no shit, an offensive mon being able to switch into a super powerful wallbreaker like lele is already amazing.

Choice band zygarde does not necessarily put holes in teams at all, common pokemon like clefable and mega scizor can very comfortably avoid the 2hko and even some niche sets like cosmic power clef and curse mzor can set up on cb zygarde.

And yes, SG magearna sets are definitely less consistent than zygarde but that's why its one subrank lower, and quite frankly it should stay that way, Magearna is totally capable of adapting to almost every check thrown at it. As far as AV goes, I feel like you're taking its ability to check so many things and still stay remotely threatening for granted. This one mon can check metagame-shaking threats like tapu koko/bulu/lele, ash+protean greninja, hoopa, weavile/Kyu-b, mega zam (which can be 2hko'd by iron head, fleur isn't needed), mega lati@s, ttar, clefable, and so much more depending on what set you run (which again, depends on what your team needs!)

It's frankly amazing that any one mon can do all of that and there's absolutely no replacing it, as underwhelming as the AV set may seem.

Thank you for staying polite and patient with me : ]

 

[hmsa2012]

Nominating Alakazam-Mega from B+ to A-

Alakazam-Mega @ Alakazite
Ability: Trace
Timid / Modest Nature
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
- Psychic
- Focus Blast
- Shadow Ball / Dazzling Gleam
- Hidden Power Fire / Recover

Just like the Lati-twins, Mega Alakazam has been gaining traction through tournament play. Its mediocre bulk as been overshadowed by its amazing speed and high sp. atk. Although timid gives Zam ridiculous speed, a Modest nature still puts its max speed at 399, which notably speed ties with Ash-Greninja. Outside of defensive Celesteela and certain Assault Vest users, Zam has the sp. atk to punch through teams with STAB Psychic as it 2OHKOs the common Landorus and Clefable. What's nice about Zam is it can run the coverage moves its teams could lack (Focus Blast for Tyranitars and Heatrans, Shadow Ball/Dazzling Gleam for the Lati-twins, Hidden Power Fire if Ferrothorn is an issue). Recover gives Zam longevity to make up for its mediorce bulk.

But what I think makes this mon extraordinary is its ability in Trace. If switched into a mon with Regenerator, its gets free health without little punishment. If it Traces Swift Swim, it can be problematic against the Rain matchup. I think Trace give Zam another offensive weapon it can use to become a huge threat and can provide the path for its teammates to eventually win games.

A few examples of how Zam has become great through recent tournament play:

Blunder's immaculate trophy winning game, in which lead Zam was a threat from the get go, and Traces Toxapex's Regenerator
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen7ou-383595

Bro Fist's 1st game of WCOP tie-break, where Zam "walled" Mega Lati and provides offensive pressure to the opposing team.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen7ou-384673

 

[matthewc20090]

B-->B-
off the top of my head there seems to be little reason to use alomomola right now. its role as a wishpasser is eclipsed mostly by clefable and chansey which offer a ton of extra support in rocks and potentially twave while also not fearing status. as a bulky water i'd rather use toxapex since it absorbs tspikes. alo just lets a ton of things in for free on balance like lele koko and mega latios since it has to either wish and protect to recover or switch out, and bulkier builds don't want to have those mons coming in for free. i suppose it has some niches on certain stalls but that playstyle as a whole has been on the decline lately. overall i think alomomola's too niche especially with wish clef and wish chansey doing its job better.

 

[Squidy822]

squidy makes another trash suggestion or two. yay.

Jojo Reference UR -> C- or C

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-766501711

This mon is interesting and, honestly, kinda fun. First of all, 107 HP, 139 Atk, and 139 Def are all great. Its speed, only 79, isn't the worst but isn't quite the best either. However, if you get an opportunity to set up a substitute, things might get interesting. SubPunch is a strong attack, allowing it to hit a few things neutrally for high damage from behind that substitute. It also has coverage moves like Earthquake, Ice Punch, Stone Edge/Rock Slide, Thunder Punch, and Leech Life/Lunge. Not to mention a recovery move in Roost. This Jojo Reference may be UUBL, but this buff mosquito feels worthy of a spot on the VR.

Although, of course, I see stuff like Heatran (who it probably has trouble beating unless behind substitute) and Clefable (who, theoretically, outright slaughters buzzwole) on the rise isn't helping it. However, it theoretically would do pretty darn well against Zygarde. It mostly helps to manage to be behind the substitute.

Edit: Oh, yeah, another thing I forgot to note: At least in the case of my set, it pretty much needs substitute + roost + focus punch. So that leaves only one spot for coverage. Just mentioning that.

Leo edit: deleted all low ladder replays

 

[BlueLobster]

squidy makes another trash suggestion or two. yay.
View attachment 123487
Jojo Reference UR -> C- or C
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-766424850
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-766433436
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-766492460
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-766501711

This mon is interesting and, honestly, kinda fun. First of all, 107 HP, 139 Atk, and 139 Def are all great. Its speed, only 79, isn't the worst but isn't quite the best either. However, if you get an opportunity to set up a substitute, things might get interesting. SubPunch is a strong attack, allowing it to hit a few things neutrally for high damage from behind that substitute. It also has coverage moves like Earthquake, Ice Punch, Stone Edge/Rock Slide, Thunder Punch, and Leech Life/Lunge. Not to mention a recovery move in Roost. This Jojo Reference may be UUBL, but this buff mosquito feels worthy of a spot on the VR.

Although, of course, I see stuff like Heatran (who it probably has trouble beating unless behind substitute) and Clefable (who, theoretically, outright slaughters buzzwole) on the rise isn't helping it. However, it theoretically would do pretty darn well against Zygarde. It mostly helps to manage to be behind the substitute.

Edit: Oh, yeah, another thing I forgot to note: At least in the case of my set, it pretty much needs substitute + roost + focus punch. So that leaves only one spot for coverage. Just mentioning that.

I agree Buzz should be ranked, but ngl this nom isn't particularly good as it doesn't really point out buzz's niche in the meta. Buzz should be ranked as it is a really good check to Zyg and Kart, among other things, on stall or fat balance teams. tbh I don't know why buzz wasn't ranked a while ago back when there were some successful stalls with it floating around. Avalugg is in C- for similar reasons (ie, it's usefulness on stall) and buzz is arguably on par, if not better than it so should also be ranked.

Edit: Also supporting a Bish rise, this thing is really threatening to balance teams and can outright win games if you get a 50/50 or two right. It enjoys the rise in clef and torn without superpower (although not tran) and I have had a lot of success with Bish, despite all the ppl who will tell you it's terrible.

 

[Finchinator]

Fire time

Tran to S and Volc to A-

Heatran is fantastic atm. Easily top 3 in the metagame and also one of the most threatening Pokemon consistently. It has a number of sets, but Magma Storm variants are the bread-and-butter. With the appropriate z move there are hardly any universal counters and Z fire alone is barely consistently checkable. The metagame keeps adapting to Heatran w Gliscor, Gastrodon, and Mega Latios, but yet it is still so common and effective. It may not start a game being able to “pick” like Heatran or Tapu Lele, but it has lasting power and it really can be one of the best progress makers in a durable, balanced metagame. This is insanely underrated and largely attests to Heatran’s overall effectiveness. Pair this with versatility and consistency that I alluded to above and I think there is a very plausible S argument.

Volcarona, on the other hand, is kinda dicks rn. Sure it has an insanely high ceiling and it can be a potent win condition, but it can also be near deadweight and with Tran Tar Lati Pex etc roaming around on a ton of teams it needs the perfect moveset to win games and what perfect is each game varies a ton. That paired with support being significant and mandatory makes it a hard sell to use much rn and this warranting a slight drop.

 

[Katy]

Heatran to S > Agreed

Heatran is imho the most metagame defiening mon after Lando T, being able to trap Toxapex, HP Ice for Zygarde and Lando T on their switchins.
Taunt + Rocks as good supportive utility move alongside with Toxic.
Being able to KOing weakened Latis with Corkscrew Crash (showed in a SmogTours game of blunder vs SoulWind) and Firium Z has no real switchins makes it a Threat to hardly prep for in the metagame.
Heatran is imho more metagame defining than Kartana and it should rise to S.



Mega Alakazam to A- > Argeed

Megazam is a really good Balance breaker with Shadow Ball, Psychic and Hp Fire/Ice and/or Focus Blast.
Being able to Trace Regenerator from Pex and getting Health back on the switchout and Flash Fire from Heatran.
Prior to Mega having Magic Guard helps it alot, not getting worn down by Hazards/Toxic that easily.
Timid and Modest have both true breaking power, Recover is also a great option on MegaZam sets as you gain longevity though that.
The Game of Blunder vs SoulWind really shows how good of Mon MegaZam is currently.


Echoing my Nomination a few Pages ago - Ninetales Alola to C+ from C

Not only it's Usage has risen recently, but it sees some Usage in Tournament Games aswell again. It was able to do a decent amount of work.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen7ou-384271

 

[Lugia Proto]

Kool noms this time around

Heatran to S: Agree
Good mon, probably the best balance breaker in the meta, magma storm is great for breaking balance, and it also has access to stealth rocks if you're in need of a good rocker. Offers great compression, as it is able to set up rocks, toxic to wear down partners checks, and break stall + balance in a single slot. Good mon.
Alakazam to A-: agree
Zone + Zam is really good right now, and psyspam isn't bad. Zam pressures bulky cores immensely, and new sets like recover mega Zam are good because it increases Zam's longevity. Also functions as a decent check to Heatran with trace + flash fire.
Clefable to S-: Agree.
Right now Clef is possibly one of the best rockers in the tier, and is amazing support with new sets that use wish and softboiled. Or it could opt to run other movers with great support, such as knock off or calm mind. https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-748488885 Replay of clef being able to get up rocks and knock off to support teammates.

 

[NG Spencer]

Agree with Mega Alakazam to A-
Mzam is the fastest nonscarf mon in the tier outspeeding things like koko, tornt, etc and has very few solid switchins thanks to its high special attack, especially if ur modest which blunder used vs soulwind as on balance outspeeding +1 zyg (as its already checked by things like bulky sd bulu or clef), evolved ash gren (as it wont evolve if u keep ur pex and dark resist healthy), mlop/mmane (lol) isn't as needed, while on offense it can run timid as those mons are greater threats for that playstyle. While balance helps zam by stopping the things it needs timid for, zam helps balance thanks to trace which allows it to come in on heatran, one of the most common and most threatening mons in the tier as long as they are not steelium or grassium thanks to trace blocking magma and recover for sustainability. Trace also gives you the potential to copy sick abilities like greninjas protean, sd or band karts beast boost as you rkill that mon, another massive threat to balance, landoruses intimidate,or a weakened magearnas soul heart. With magic guard as its preevolved forms ability it doesn't have to take rocks damage upon switchin and you can even hold off on mega evolving if spikes are up so that you dont have to waste a turn recovering as megazam, further adding to its versatility.

Disagree with Volcarona to A-
Volcarona is extremely threatening both on paper and in practice, being able to turn games around and sweep in one turn thanks to its heavily limited counterplay. While its weak to stealth rocks the new tutors in usum brought us better hazard removal helping keep hazards off the field for volcarona, not to mention that all the relevant defoggers pair nicely with it. Zapdos, tornt, fini, landot, kart, mlati, even mew aren't that hard to fit on teams and help volc by covering its weaknesses thanks to their typing in the case of zapdos who stops lucha in terrain and pinsirs quick attack for volc or fini who can switch into ash grens shuriken while things like scarf kart and scarf lando can be used as a secondary way to remove rocks for it, mew can lure tran with earthpower meaning you no longer need hp ground, and mlati is mlati lol. The argument im seeing primarily is that it cannot beat all mlati, ttar, heatran and pex with one set but keep in mind they wont always have every single one of those mons on their team, and you use the 5 other team members to guard vs the one you cannot beat either by pursuiting mlati from the likes of ttar or weavile (who is really good right now), wearing ttar down with hazards and other attacks such as when they come in to try and trap ur own mlati and you put it in range of +1 hp ground, luring tran with coverage moves from things like the aforementioned mew, focus punch mmaw, eq mvenu, etc or even trapping it with pursuit from bandtar so that its in range of +1 z psychic. Pex admittedly is the hardest to kill thanks to recover and regenerator if you aren't the correct set for it, however there are still lures for it such as z dig greninja or other mons like reuni that use it as complete fodder. Furthermore, as for metagame trends that go into volcs favor, the most consistent rocker clefable is free setup for volcarona so you come in as they get go for rocks and you have the momentum, and if they double predicting ur volc then you simply switch back out but you have prevented rocks from going up. Also, the two most common scarfers in the tier, kartana (unless ur like aerial ace or giga impact on scarfkart ig) and landorust, fail to rkill volc meaning its pretty tough to outpace unless you have a lucha, which is only a one time stop and can be stopped by teammates like zapdos, or mpert/kingdra/ash gren under rain, which while still solid isn't THAT amazing of a playstyle right now thanks to all the bulus, gastros, ttars, etc that rain on ur parade. Honestly the biggest problem to me it seems is that volc isn't splashable, and that it requires a bit of support to be truly devastating and isnt self sufficient, but that's why its not S rank. Ways of dealing with toxapex, heatran, ttar, mlati (again these mons are very common and very good but you wont always encounter them all together) and hazard removal are on most if not all good teams in the meta so incorporating them in ur building should be done so already and not solely for volcarona.

 

[Altervisi]

Fire time

Tran to S and Volc to A-

Heatran is fantastic atm. Easily top 3 in the metagame and also one of the most threatening Pokemon consistently. It has a number of sets, but Magma Storm variants are the bread-and-butter. With the appropriate z move there are hardly any universal counters and Z fire alone is barely consistently checkable. The metagame keeps adapting to Heatran w Gliscor, Gastrodon, and Mega Latios, but yet it is still so common and effective. It may not start a game being able to “pick” like Heatran or Tapu Lele, but it has lasting power and it really can be one of the best progress makers in a durable, balanced metagame. This is insanely underrated and largely attests to Heatran’s overall effectiveness. Pair this with versatility and consistency that I alluded to above and I think there is a very plausible S argument.

Volcarona, on the other hand, is kinda dicks rn. Sure it has an insanely high ceiling and it can be a potent win condition, but it can also be near deadweight and with Tran Tar Lati Pex etc roaming around on a ton of teams it needs the perfect moveset to win games and what perfect is each game varies a ton. That paired with support being significant and mandatory makes it a hard sell to use much rn and this warranting a slight drop.

Heatran to S - Disgree
Underrated? Heatran has like, 20% ladder usage, was used in 5 out of 6 teams in the OUPL finals, and has consistently been regarded one of the best Pokemon in OU, since it was introduced. Everyone else gets called out on this, so, this nom doesn't actually highlight anything that has changed in the meta to warrant a rise at all, just states facts about the mon that are already well known. Sure it's still effective, but of the Pokemon you listed that are making the meta worse for Tran, the most used one is Gastrodon at 5%, so it is hardly like checks are running rampant and its still standing firm, the truth is Ground- and Fighting- are amazing meta types and are available to a significant number of mons as STAB or coverage. Top Pokemon like, Landorus-T, Magearna, Greninja, Zygarde, Kartana, Lele all pack answers to Heatran naturally. Its hard to switch into, sure, but its not hard to deal with and it is sitting right at S-; or at A+ were S- to go. The main reason it is so great is that it beats the standard Special walls due to their passivity with its trapping; but again I don't see why this makes it S worthy.

Volcarona to A- - Mostly Disagree
Volcarona still beats Tyranitar and Latios fairly easily, KO'ing Latios after Rocks and Tar at +1 after Rocks (Bug Buzz is mandatory imo). Hidden Power [Ground] is an excellent way to lure Heatran and, Toxapex is in a bad spot anyway so its not like Psychium Z is as mandatory as it used to be. I mean, sure it needs support and the 'perfect moveset', but doesn't every sweeper? Plus the support is 1. Remove Rocks (yes I don't underestimate that is hard), 2. ???, most defensive answers lose after minor chip or just aren't that common right now, other than Scarf Greninja there are no Scarfers to really stop a +1 that are good in the meta right now. That being said, priority is balls to deal with, there are a few non-Scarf fast offensive answers like Hawlucha or Excadrill, Rocks is freaking hard to consistently clear and while defensive answers are generally declining, they are still common and it does need that slight edge to take care of the mons mentioned in the original post. So I would say mostly disagree but unlike with Heatran I can definitely get behind some opposing arguments.

 

[Finchinator]

I hate these quote-by-quote type responses, but it is probably necessary here to get my points through. Don't take this the wrong way, btw, but there are some red flags I feel the need to come down on for example's sake and argument's sake.

Heatran to S - Disgree
Underrated? Heatran has like, 20% ladder usage, was used in 5 out of 6 teams in the OUPL finals, and has consistently been regarded one of the best Pokemon in OU, since it was introduced.

This has to be one of the most linear, near-sighted, and off-topic pieces of analysis I've ever seen. Ladder usage borders irrelevance, OUPL finals is the smallest sample size known to man, and Heatran literally was not regarded as a top tier Pokemon for all of generations 5 and 6 (better in 6, but still not close to S). These are the most random, unconnected groups of criteria that do not convey any logical progression whatsoever. Regardless of that, underrated =/= underused. Usage is hardly relevant in all of this and that seems to be your centerpiece to begin with, so throw that out. Underrated in a sense that Heatran is a top tier, versatile offensive threat and a lot of people just regard it as a really good Pokemon that is a nice presence to add on to teams for filling-out your checklist teambuilding wise (i,e: handles Clefable, gets SR, can trap Toxapex, etc.) -- Heatran is so much more than that and pushes the envelope to an extent that not many other things can do so consistently and not many people put this into words, let alone recognize it, and that is why I label it as underrated. Not because of anything related to what you said.

Everyone else gets called out on this, so, this nom doesn't actually highlight anything that has changed in the meta to warrant a rise at all, just states facts about the mon that are already well known.

What is the logic behind this? The Pokemon does not have to suddenly improve to warrant it moving up in the ranks. Perhaps there was an oversight or hesitance to move it up in the past due to the fact that S rank is generally untouched or that we just recently created previously unprecedented S- rank. I have thought Heatran was borderline suspect worthy and borderline S rank for a number of months now, but I have been in the minority and there have been more pressing matters, so I let it go until the time was right -- now more people are noticing how metagame defining and potent Heatran is, so I posted my thoughts fully. Instead of trying to say my points are wrong, you try to say that they are not applicable on a timely basis when there is no expiration date for viability or negative trends you use to counter my points.

Sure it's still effective, but of the Pokemon you listed that are making the meta worse for Tran, the most used one is Gastrodon at 5%, so it is hardly like checks are running rampant and its still standing firm, the truth is Ground- and Fighting- are amazing meta types and are available to a significant number of mons as STAB or coverage.

The fact that Gastrodon is used more than Mega Latios or Gliscor just shows that using usage as an argument is absolutely atrocious. Mega Latios is a top 10-15 Pokemon right now and Gliscor is also much better than Gastrodon. Also, if you do not understand the fact that the main innovative/uncommon Pokemon trending all have dealing with Heatran as a main trait in common leading to the conclusion that Heatran clearly is something the metagame is pressed to handle, thus making it top notch, then I'm sorry, but I cannot do much here -- regardless of your understanding of that or trying to spin my words or use usage to back your argument, it clearly is the case and Heatran is certainly in the discussion for S rank.

Top Pokemon like, Landorus-T, Magearna, Greninja, Zygarde, Kartana, Lele all pack answers to Heatran naturally. Its hard to switch into, sure, but its not hard to deal with and it is sitting right at S-; or at A+ were S- to go. The main reason it is so great is that it beats the standard Special walls due to their passivity with its trapping; but again I don't see why this makes it S worthy.

The fact that common Pokemon carry coverage to hit Heatran or have STABs to hit it is like saying a lot of things run Hidden Power Ice or have strong special STABs or water type STABs for water types to hit Landorus-T. Sure, it can be pressured and forced out -- I'm not saying it's perfect and it sure as hell is beatable. This totally does not address or counter my argument though. You are just trying to push points away without actually countering them and making excuses or using poor reasoning around them. I do not see how this is an actual viable argument against Heatran rising to S whatsoever.

Volcarona to A- - Mostly Disagree
Volcarona still beats Tyranitar and Latios fairly easily, KO'ing Latios after Rocks and Tar at +1 after Rocks (Bug Buzz is mandatory imo). Hidden Power [Ground] is an excellent way to lure Heatran and, Toxapex is in a bad spot anyway so its not like Psychium Z is as mandatory as it used to be.

What do you exactly mean by Toxapex is in a bad spot? And did you notice you just mentioned 3 coverage moves and 2 necessary Z moves (many Tyranitar need Z-Bug to die to +1 Volcarona assuming they are EVd well) without mentioning a fire move or the accompanying Z, which is arguably the most practical of them all? This is just proving my point to an extent, in my opinion.

I mean, sure it needs support and the 'perfect moveset', but doesn't every sweeper?

I mean sure in a sense, but not every sweeper runs the same risk as Volcarona -- Volcarona is useless fairly often and always requires durable Defog and field management throughout. Something like SD Kartana is going to consistently pose a thread and does not require that -- sure, it needs Smart Strike for Venusaur or Amoonguss, for example, but it is still far less of a risk you are taking and this is a clear, well-established risk you are taking in using Volcarona.

Plus the support is 1. Remove Rocks (yes I don't underestimate that is hard),

What in the world. Stealth Rock Clefable runs the tier right now and there are hardly any durable enough Defog users to outlast it. Scarf Landorus-T is not something you can just slap onto Volcarona teams and say "ok, good enough hazard control". Tornadus-T is alright, but even it is vulnerable to plenty and not 1v1'ing Heatran or Clefable often enough. Defog Zapdos used to be a great Volcarona partner, but it has fallen off the face of the Earth like you claim Toxapex has, when Toxapex actually hasn't and Zapdos has, as people like GMars and myself have outlined in various past posts. Now is as hard as ever a time to consistently remove SR and if you only get one of a few turns in the entire game to get Volcarona in, then you may very well never have one of them be the right opening and then it will all be a waste. I really think you are not truly understanding the opportunity cost of using Volcarona when compared to other things and also the risks behind it.

2. ???, most defensive answers lose after minor chip or just aren't that common right now, other than Scarf Greninja there are no Scarfers to really stop a +1 that are good in the meta right now.

Well, you answered your own ??? to an extent in the following sentence, but there are still some hard counters such as Toxapex and Chansey that are problematic, so yea top it off with that and the fact that Greninja is a top 3 (maybe top 2) scarfer right now, even if it is objectively bad in a sense, and you kind of answer your own question in terms of support and counterplay, imo.

That being said, priority is balls to deal with, there are a few non-Scarf fast offensive answers like Hawlucha or Excadrill, Rocks is freaking hard to consistently clear and while defensive answers are generally declining, they are still common and it does need that slight edge to take care of the mons mentioned in the original post. So I would say mostly disagree but unlike with Heatran I can definitely get behind some opposing arguments.

Actually did not read this before going through the other parts and think a lot of it is exceedingly agreeable and fair. If you maintain these points and still think it is A material, then perhaps we simply have different personal gauges of where A truly is in terms of overall viability, but I stand by the fact that it can plausibly drop to A-.

 

[Gross Sweep]

I think it's about time for another post discussing all the noms and discussions going on. As always I apologize if the post is to long, a lot of stuff has been happening that interests me.

This mon has been up for debate between A+ and S- for a long time, and I’ve purposely put it off for a while. Even sitting here writing I’ve been playing with a pencil thinking about what it will feel like when I finish, but enough stalling. Between Wish + Soft-Boiled, CM Clef, options such as Ice Beam, flamethrower and Twave Clefable can really do whatever you need it to do. I normally try and stay away from Clef as I’ve always preferred my bulky offense, but in order to be successful in the meta I’ve started to adapt to the balance overload and embrace Clefable. Really I can’t say anything about this mon that hasn’t been said. Aside from the rise of Iron Tail Zygarde this mon has pretty much everything going for it. Gives teams a mon that can stomach hits, and apply pressure at the same time. Really a driving force for Balance, and as it’s the best style in the meta it deserves the rise.

I love me some Zard-X. This mon shreds so many teams it almost isn’t funny. Landorus-T is still the king of OU for the time being, but the rise of Scarf Lando-t makes it even easier to wear down. Aside from that solid fire resists are far and between. Some of the premiere Fire resists in Heatran and Toxapex really hate Earthquake, and the other big name in M-Latios doesn’t appreciate the less common Dragon Claw. As far as sets go I believe Flare Blitz, Earthquake, Dragon Dance, Roost is Charizard-X’s best set, and if you give it some good support and a somewhat decent match up it’s going to do more than live up to the rise to B+ I’m supporting. Also I will just note this mon probably isn’t the best for someone strictly living on the ladder, but I feel like in tour this mon has a great chance to excel given your up against the correct opponent.

Mega Zard-Y is a mon that probably deserves more than C+ at this point in time. With Toxapex usage being low Zard-Y is really only fearing the Lati Twins in terms of a common Poke that shuts this thing down entirely (aside from Chansey I guess). That being said a rise in things like SpDef SD Bulu, and Ttar means there are lots of options to help with this. Zard-Y is definitely a more match up fishing mon in the current metagame since you’re either going off with it or it’s sitting there doing nothing, but the upside is more than enough for B- in my opinion. Pretty cut and dry, Zard-Y definitely deserves to at least be equal with Volcanion of all things.

Pyukumu is a mon I’m not the biggest fan of as I try to stay away from stall personally, but if it is going to get ranked it should be C. standard C rank is home to mons such as Alolan Ninetales, M-Camerupt, Uxie, Cresselia, and Crawdaunt. If you know the meta you know what these mons have in common. They all only fit on some more lesser niche styles, with no crossover into balance or bulky offense. Be it Veil, Trick Room, or in this case a fairly specific stall C rank is where these mons live. Pyuku only fitting on one specific stall, all be it a decent stall, is why I feel C rank is where it should call home.

I don’t think Magearna should drop, going to keep this simple. The AV set still works well as a blanket check that can hold bulky offense together long enough to apply enough pressure against the opposing team. With that the sg set is as good as it has been in a long time right now. Going to keep this one super short and brief as Vso and Srn have been discussing this topic a lot, so if you want any details about Magearna and its merits/holes just go read their posts from the last few pages. Personally I thing Magearna should sit tight, but I don’t want to go on repeating either of those two.

Tangrowth is probably the nomination that made me want to write this post the most. I love Tangrowth, and am all for it rising to A-. The emergence of this thing recently has been great. With a wide move pool in Giga Drain, HP Ice, HP Fire, Earthquake, Knock Off, Sludge Bomb, Sleep Powder, Synthesis, and Stun Spore Tangrowth has a plethora of options making it great. Also with the recent emergence in a more phys def oriented AV Tangrowth using Hp Fire for Kartana, and Grass Knot to keep Sub Zygarde from setting up on it. Right now Grass types are just great in the meta, providing teams with a Water, Electric, and Ground resist provides so much role compression that it really aids team building. Honestly I could talk about Tangrowth for a while, so I’ll just wrap it up before I start rambling.

I am all for dropping Alomomomomola. A while ago I was talking to someone about building a Mega Garchomp team and they wanted to support it with something like Wish or Healing Wish. I saw M-Chomp and wanted to run it with something else kind of heat. I thought of Alomomomomola, but it did not work out. After that debacle I kept trying to use Alomomomola, but I just could not make things work. Different focus, different teammates, and different building partners it just didn’t work. That oversized Luvdisc is so hard to work with, I’m all for whatever drop the council decides on. This may come across biased, but I don’t care, it’s late and I hate this thing.

Heatran rising to S is definitely interesting. Landorus-T’s vice grip on the undisputed OU top dog spot has been shaky for a bit now with Zygarde and Heatran at its heels. That being said I support the rise of Heatran. I’m definitely one of those S ranked is a sacred special place people, but the influx of all these new checks in order to stop it are what make me personally willing to give it the nod. Mons like Gastrodon, Gliscor, and M-Lati would still be solid usable mons if Heatran didn’t exist, but no one can deny is a large reason they broke onto the scene and stayed around. Finch has covered this topic well enough that I’m having trouble finding anything new to actually add, so I’ll wrap this up by saying that as long as those Magma Storms stay hitting this is a new brainer.

I think that’s going to do it for this post, I’ve hit pretty much everything I wanted too. I will note that I would have liked to touch on Buzzwole, but I don’t have the patience to make a lengthy response at the moment to that specific nomination. As always I hope it wasn’t too boring a read. Also this is to long to proof read, so I apologize for the grammatical errors that probably littered this post.

 

[Altervisi]

Yeah, usage does not equal rating, but it is the closest statistical evidence you can get to it. Maybe you mean underrated by significant players? I don't know, but from general opinion I've seen and from how many people actually use this mon, no-one really underrates Heatran, it seems to me like one of the highest rated. By 'one of the best' I didn't mean S, I mean it has never dropped below A, from what I can see, and has spent the majority of its life in either the highest, or second highest subrank, not that this has anything to do with the current meta.

When nominating a Pokemon, do not merely list its obvious qualities such as stats, typing, movepool, etc. If you think a Pokemon deserves to rise or drop, explain what has changed in the meta to cause such Pokemon to get better or worse.

By your own rules nominations are meant to involve meta-changes, so there's the logic. I understand your hatred for usage stats in viability arguments, but they are not as completely useless as you portray in my opinion, there is a correlation between viability and usage, it is not super strong, definitely not equal and it has outliers, but it doesn't mean immediate dismissal of every argument that mentions usage.

You can't really compare Ground/Fighting coverage to Hidden Power [Ice], I mean, that is one of the things that seperates Landorus in S from Heatran in my opinion, Ice is far far less common and was usually added as HP just for Landorus and a handful of less common mons (I know Zygarde is insane right now, but nothing significant has started running Ice recently to deal with Zyg afaik). Fighting and Ground are both fantastic types beside Heatran, handling a much larger number of threats, than a low BP HP Ice.

As for Volc as a TL;DR, definitely the major problem is Rocks but I think what it can do with the support it demands makes it A worthy.

 

[Ske]

Here is what i think about the current nominations

Heatran to S->S Strongly Agree

If u ask me, Heatran is the best mon in the tier atm, Modest Bloom Doom has no SI in Grassy Terrain besides Mega Latios which is easily pursuit trapped by Weavile or Banded Tyranitar in Grassy Terrain or Mega Tyranitar (Which is underrated imo) It has so many sets such as Steelium-Z, Firium-Z, Will-O-Wisp. I have been gearing away from timid Heatran as i think Modest is much better and Utility Heatran with Spdef Investment is so good as it checks Magearna Non Fightinium-Z Tapu Lele and is a solid set overall. I no longer think Landorus is the best mon in the tier, Dont get me wrong lando is still amazing but I think mons such as Heatran & Zygarde are much more versatile as the only Lando set i would consider S Rank worthy is Defensive scarf, i dont think Defensive Landorus is tht good anymore as the premier Stealth Rocker in the tier is Clefable & the biggest problem with Landorus is that if you are running Defensive Stealth Rocks, you are not running Scarf Defensive, Which is a problem since OU Lacks really good scarfers out of like Landorus & Kartana. Same reason with Offensive Landorus if you're running Offensive Landorus you're not running Scarf Defensive. And Heatran & Zygarde have too many amazing sets. (Especially Zygarde Sheesh)

Volcarona to A>A- Disagree

Keep the Aids Moth is A, Volcarona is a big sleeper Pokemon, while yes Clefable is a very very solid Stealth Rocker (The Best Rocker Imo) i haven't really seen anyone talk about how Volcarona uses ever so popular Wish Clefable Set as Set-Up Fodder completely, U can can go hard Volcarona every-time & Get a kill depending or your set or just win if your opponent doesn't have any counter-play. I think some people use the wrong Volcarona set, I Think Psychic-Z Volcarona is pretty bad ATM since Heatran is everywhere anyway & Payapa Toxapex is like the best Toxapex set ATM Since u can Status Psychics such as Lele & Mega Alakazam which is really nice & check Volcarona all in one slot. what people should be spamming is Buginium-Z Volcarona which is a absolute menace and can destroy a lot of teams ATM, if you dont have a Chansey or Toxapex this set is so hard to deal with man. Also Hazard Removal is pretty decent ATM in my opinion as Tornadus is the best fogger in the tier in my opinion & pretty splash-able, Building with Volcarona is very hard but if you manage to do so it is so rewarding.

Ske - ​

 

[bigkingpin]

Volcarona A -> A- : Agree

Volcarona is by no means a weak Pokemon. The fact is that it has lost a significant amount of the potency that made it deserving of it's A rank in the first place. Volcarona deals with a bad case of 4-moveslot syndrome, being forced to juggle around using Hidden Power Ground to make it so it can beat Heatran, Psychic so it can beat Toxapex, and Bug Buzz to beat Tyranitar and the Mega Lati twins. This can lead to games where Volcarona is completely and utterly useless because of the moves it carrys or doesn't carry. It also has a 4x weakness to Stealth Rocks, which also hinders it's ability to sweep teams due to it being easier to revenge kill. Overall it obviously is a great Pokemon, I just don't feel it is at the same level as other A pokemon such as Tapu Lele and Greninja.​

 

[Jucherz]

Volcarona A>A- Agree
Volcarona is too inconsistent and it's success heavily depends on team support and the structure of the opposing team. I know that usage stats =/= viability, but this is just ridiculous:

As Finchinator and several others already addressed Volcarona's main flaws, I'll focus on the arguments why it should not drop. People keep mentioning Clefable as a set up fodder for Volcarona. Yes, Volcarona sets up on Clefable, but actually the top teammate for Clefable is Toxapex, top 3 teammate is Gastrodon and top 4 teammate is Heatran. Clefable is never paired with 5 Pokemon that get swept by Volcarona (unless you're in low ladder). Another argument is that it is much easier to remove Stealth Rock now. The main defoggers are Tornadus-Therian and Zapdos. I don't think Tornadus-T pairs well with Volcarona as it has to run the subpar Rocky Helmet set since Volcarona needs the Z crystal. So the main Volcarona partner should be Zapdos, which also helps with Hawlucha and Mega Pinsir. However Kecleon is a much more common Volcarona partner than Zapdos and that just makes me wonder if anyone uses Volcarona seriously anymore. A fucking Kecleon lmao. Also someone mentioned Z-Dig Greninja as a partner for Volcarona to lure Toxapex, well that doesn't work since Volcarona needs the Z crystal. And bulky Volc is just bad.

Now you may say "No, you're using usage stats to prove your point", well actually usage of certain Pokemon and cores can affect another Pokemon's viability (for example if Lando-T usage dropped considerably, Excadrill would become more viable). Volcarona is just hard to use and it isn't as rewarding as many people claim it to be. Drop it to A-.

 

[LeNorm]

View attachment 123864
Volcarona A -> A- : Agree

Volcarona is by no means a weak Pokemon. The fact is that it has lost a significant amount of the potency that made it deserving of it's A rank in the first place. Volcarona deals with a bad case of 4-moveslot syndrome, being forced to juggle around using Hidden Power Ground to make it so it can beat Heatran, Psychic so it can beat Toxapex, and Bug Buzz to beat Tyranitar and the Mega Lati twins. This can lead to games where Volcarona is completely and utterly useless because of the moves it carrys or doesn't carry. It also has a 4x weakness to Stealth Rocks, which also hinders it's ability to sweep teams due to it being easier to revenge kill. Overall it obviously is a great Pokemon, I just don't feel it is at the same level as other A pokemon such as Tapu Lele and Greninja.​

Hi and welcome to Smogon, it's nice to see your first post here!

These are indeed some of the problems Volc has always had in OU - rocks weakness and the inability to beat everything with one set is indeed a problem. However, none of this is news, and I struggle to see what has changed negatively for Volc in the past few months to actually warrant a drop. Pex falling in both use and viability is pretty sweet for Volc, especially coupled with the rise of Heatran, Tyranitar, and the Latis which makes HP Ground + Savage Spin Out a better and more coherent spread (+1 Bug Buzz KOs 252 HP Timid Latias, for instance, Savage Spin Out does the same to Tyranitar). Indeed, the Z-Psychic set seemed a bit niche to me as the only real target was Pex and Z-Bug Buzz a more rounded set IMO. Most teams can prepare for one set, but preparing for both HP Ground and Psychic requires a variety of mons, which can lead to the sacking one (unless you are running Chansey!). The presence of these two sets can lead to mind games that hinder an opponents play (making one ask themselves 'do I need to keep Pex or Heatran back' and thus potentially having to keep both at high health and thus play more conservatively with them).

Clefs return to the upper echelons of OU means that rocks are easy to set up multiple times in a game, which indirectly means Volc needs more support, but there are still a plethora of defoggers out there (Tornadus especially, but also Fini - whose terrain can also prevent Volc from status, Gliscor, (Scar-)Lando Rotom-W, Kartana, Mega-Scizor, the Lati@s etc.) and almost every team has one anyway, which makes it less constraining to run a solid defogger.

To my mind, Volc is in an even better place in the meta because of these changes, so I oppose it dropping to A-.

 

[blank]

heatran is one of the absolute best pokemon in the tier. it is super splashable and has a ton of really good sets, and it is a huge threat that's hard to switch into. what sets it apart from landorus-t is that you don't need to choose between utility and power with heatran like with landorus-t: the z magma storm sets provide utility in the form of stealth rocks, taunt, trapping, and heatran's natural bulk and typing. fitting heatran switch-ins on a team can be kinda annoying due to all the different options you MIGHT face. gastrodon, mega latios, and zygarde are considered some of the better tran SIs (zygarde is less reliable than the other two ofc), but they all get bopped by coverage options that aren't necessarily uncommon: bloom doom, corkscrew crash, and wisp / plume burns respectively pressure all these pokemon, making tran REALLY stressful to deal because not even the more splashable SIs give you super reliable counterplay.

finch already went to town on that earlier post, but i think i should emphasize that when trends arise in response to a pokemon, that is usually a clear sign that said pokemon has a big impact on the metagame. these coverage moves and pokemon like gliscor help to keep heatran in check better, but it's a volcarona type situation where it makes it less effective until people stop prepping for it again. heatran has been consistently threatening and useful for all of SM, but it has definitely become a bigger threat in the past few months. i think heatran is up there with landorus-t as an S rank pokemon.

anyways though i think with heatran potentially rising to S rank, the S- rank can be removed. while kartana is definitely a bit better than almost every pokemon in A+, i think it's too close in viability to them to be deserving its own rank. i also don't think it is on par with heatran and landorus-t. kartana is still one of the most threatening pokemon in the tier, and the band set rising in usage and viability lately definitely stands as a testament to this, but it's not like people aren't coming prepared for this. celesteela + gastro / grass builds are especially nice right now, rocky helmet tornadus-t has gotten popular in the past few months, and scarf magnezone has been seeing good usage in WCoP. i think this pokemon can just go down to A+ with some other top tier pokemon like ash greninja, clefable, and magearna.

the last thing i want to touch on is zygarde: this pokemon is SO GOOD holy moly. we've known it's an insanely good pokemon for awhile, but with sets like resttalk popping up lately, it's becoming more and more of a pain to play against. it's a huge threat with a million and one ultra good sets that are a pain to deal with, and it's really easy to throw on teams as a general breaker / set-up wincon. zyg switch-ins are really limited, and with pretty much all of them except physically defensive tangrowth, you need to run some consistent offensive answer and/or a more situational switch-in.

it is easy to put on a lot of team structures, it has a lot of very threatening sets, and it has a pretty limited amount of reliable switch-ins. i think it is up there with landorus-t and heatran as one of the S rank pokemon in SM OU.

regarding the S ranks: i don't know if i'm not supposed to touch on this here, so if i'm not i'd appreciate it if a mod just edited that out rather than deleting the post... there was never an S- rank during my time contributing to VR discussion, so idk the posting etiquette. (Mod Edit: The blacklist on S- discussion was only right after it was introduced, you're good to talk about it now).

TLDR: HEATRAN S, ZYGARDE S, KARTANA A+, REMOVE S-.

 

[MANNAT]

Since starry blanket covered most of the noms I was thinking of writing about, I wanted to talk about a few megas that have popped up lately that I think should rise.

Honestly I think I could see Mega Alakazam in A with how good it is right now, being around the same level as mons like Gliscor and Volcarona, but I think that's pushing it a bit so I'll settle for A-. People have been experimenting with Mega Zam a lot more lately, with sets like Modest, Recover, and CM all popping up, making Mega Zam a lot more unpredictable and difficult to deal with. Additionally, CM sets in general tear into the balance teams that are running the metagame at the moment, turning Pokemon like Mega Latios and Torn-T into setup bait and tracing their amazing abilities for its own use. At +1 Mega Alakazam can OHKO or at least do heavy damage to a lot of teams and it's shown just this in a slew of games this wcop, threatening to sweep or just straight up busting past bulky offensive and balance teams with its absurd speed tier. I personally still prefer running Timid as a contingency plan for Gren haxing through everything and the odd Mega Lop, but Modest is very good when paired with strong Ash Gren counterplay. My personal favorite set is Recover + CM + Psychic + Focus Blast because it can check some special attackers like Heatran and Mega Latios by tracing their abilities while simultaneously functioning as a threatening ass late game wincon that can win games very easily. Mega Alakazam is frankly amazing at the moment and I really think it's deserving of A- or higher.

I think that putting this thing in A- is a joke and it should honestly move up to A+. Mega Latios is an absolutely amazing glue on balanced and bulky offense teams that has exploded in usage this wcop. It just holds together the common Clefable + Ferrothorn type bulky teams perfectly, checking potent Pokemon like Heatran, Gliscor, and SD Kartana that are usually super threatening to bulkier teams. Mega Latios has quite a few offensive options to use besides its mandatory STAB Psychic + Earthquake combo including but not limited to; Hidden Power Fire, Ice Beam, and Surf and this ultimately makes it much more difficult to handle. Aside from having a fuckton of defensive utility with the slew of Pokemon that it checks, Mega Latios is also very threatening to opposing teams, being able to 2HKO Clefable with Psychic and blasting past a lot of bulkier cores if the opponent isn't careful. The recent trend of people running increasing amounts of special defense on their Clefables is telling of just how potent Mega Latios is and honestly seeing it in A- is just a joke when it's arguably as good as half of A+ rank.

Mega Pinsir is another Mega that I think is ranked a bit too low; although, I can see this one staying where it is just because of its over reliance on teammate support, but I still think it's a very strong choice in this metagame. With the increase of Defog Tornadus-T (another mon that should go to A+), many bulky teams are opting to not run Celesteela, instead choosing to opt for the offensive presence of Heatran, and these teams can get torn apart by Mega Pinsir if they aren't careful. Obviously, entry hazard pressure and reliance on teammate support means that Mega Pinsir isn't a metagame shaping threat like Heatran or Landorus-T, but it's still very good and only benefits from recent trends. The recent discovery of Defog Tapu Koko as well as the generally more diversified pool of viable Defog users means that Mega Pinsir isn't as constricting to build around, so it can take advantage of its favorable matchup against most modern era balance teams. The sharp decline of Zapdos's viablity with Hawlucha dropping off a cliff also helps out Mega Pinsir a ton because one of its most common answers isn't very common at all. Overall, Mega Pinsir is incredibly threatening to a lot of teams nowadays and has more options for teammate support, so it should move up to A rank to reflect this increase in viability.

Other Noms

• ABOLISH S-
• Volc to A-
• Heatran to S
• Kartana to A+
• Protean Gren to A+
• Lucha to A-
• Torn to A+
• Zap to B+
• Keld to A-
• Tang to A-
• Weav to A-

 

[Discharged Xurkitree]

I'm just gonna echo some noms and also argue for keeping S-,

Clefable A+ -> S-
Zygarde A+ -> S-
Heatran S- -> S
M-Lati@s A- -> A
S- -> Keep

My argument for S- is that it still serves a purpose, too distinguish mons that are better than A+ mons, but aren't the exact top tier like S. While there is now question about Landu's place as the best Pokemon in the tier, it doesn't change the fact that there are still mons in the A+ tier that are a cut above the rest, i.e. Kartana, and my noms of Zygarde and Clefable, while not exactly being S material. I still believe that even if Heatran left S- for S, the rank itself would still serve a purpose for mons now and possibly in the future that aren't the best of the best, but certainly should have a notion above the A+ rank.

 

[robofiend]

to S: Definitely. I think that comparisons to Landorus-T are very apt in this case. As Lando has fallen from the status of "absolute best mon in the metagame" to "one of several amazing pokemon that runs the metagame," Heatran has both blossomed to prominence (later last year) and continued to be a dominant for in the meta, adapting to every change fairly gracefully. While it isn't as explicitly useful as Landorus against super offensive teams (I guess it can run scarf, but meh), it absolutely shines against more common balance and stall teams. When I run teams with Heatran on them I always so pleased with its role compression and its overall ability to cut common strategies down in their tracks.

to A-: Maybe... Part of my issue is that this thing can still pretty much sweep a lot of common teams if everything goes right. I've run a couple teams with it recently and.. it kinda works. If you're facing common cores made up out of Gastro/Clef/Torn-T/Landorus-T/Heatran, Volcarona's going to have a really easy time boosting to +1 (or even +2 if Heatran lacks Toxic and Clefable lacks Twave) and breaking an opponents team. And it loves some of the recent meta changes away from Pex, CB Zygarde, and Chansey offense, none of which are as popular as they once were. But on the other hand, it's nowhere near as reliable as other A- mons like Mega Latios, Megazam, Hoopa-U or even Mawile and Kyurem-B. So I guess Volc falls in the realm of "high risk/high reward" - which frankly isn't true of a lot of other mons at the top of the VR. There's nothing else in the upper echelons of the tier that legitimately requires a lot of team support outside of Hawlucha, who needs one dedicated partner to work. All of the other A- mons are low risk/moderate reward, and in some cases they're actually carrying their team (e.g. Gliscor being one of the tier's only rock-solid Heatran switchins, Chansey hard checking almost all special attackers, Pinsir ripping through teams that don't have better priority or Cele/Skarm).

I will say, though, that a lot of teams people bring can be pretty cleanly 6-0'd by Volcarona if it gets set up. Examples below from OUPL finals, just because they're recent:

Teams

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen7ou-383947
Hiye's team - Clef/Heatran/Zygarde/Latios/Ferrothorn/Landorus - they all die to +1 Volcarona with Bug-Z and HP Ground. It's especially nice if Clef's taken just a tiny bit of damage so Volc can avoid taking a Twave. A teammate like Torn-T can taunt mons like Clefable, Heatran, or Ferrothorn, clear hazards, and let Volcarona in for free.
FMG's team - Lando/Lopunny/Zygarde/Rotom-W/Magearna/(CB) Kartana - they also die to +1 Volcarona with Bug-Z and HP Ground (Lopunny can try to RK with repeated Fake Outs, I guess, but risks catching a burn.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen7ou-383736
Vai Lusa's team is super similar to Hiye's

You can see similar scenarios for other teams in the finals, though cores like Gastrodon+Heatran are somewhat harder for Volcarona to break, these calcs bears repeating:

+1 252 SpA Volcarona Savage Spin-Out (175 BP) vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Gastrodon: 360-424 (84.7 - 99.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+1 252 SpA Volcarona Hidden Power Ground vs. 248 HP / 220+ SpD Heatran: 288-340 (74.8 - 88.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

If you somehow have spikes up, you win against either.
(e.g. https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen7ou-383770)

Disclaimer: This isn't to say "haha look Volc's good because it can theoretically win against OUPL teams" but rather that as the meta has developed, there are a few holes that Volcarona can still exploit, and I think it's worth mentioning them, even if Volc is actually destined for A-.

TLDR: HEATRAN S, ZYGARDE S, KARTANA A+, REMOVE S-.

Also this