Resource USUM OU ULTRA Viability Ranking Thread

[Colonel M]

I completely agree to an extent, but I do feel like Tangrowth is maybe a little better then A+...maybe A+ and a 1/2? idk.

Just chiming in to say:

This will never happen and I will beat Finchinator if it does happen.

While Tangrowth is a great pivot it lacks a lot of respective qualities to the S Rank Pokemon and still is fairly comparable to a lot of the A+ Ranked Pokemon as well. It has flaws such as being fairly prone to being poisoned (which can hurt its durability) and somewhat prone to Knock Off (losing Assault Vest makes it very prone to Ash-Greninja especially with Spikes involved).

Tl;dr - No to Tang S, and definitely notifying not to create an arbitrary tier between A+ and S.

Edit: Fuck Leo

 

[Guard]

Whenever I take a look at the VR, I just can’t help myself from cringing about Zygarde’s placement. I know this topic has been beaten to death but trying never hurts anyone so once again, I present you:

Zygarde A+ >>> S

To start off, let’s break down Zygarde’s sets (numbered by viability in my opinion)…

1. Choice Band - SubCoil + Glare - SubDD + Toxic
2. Groundium Z
3. Double Dance
4. Weakness Policy
5. Defensive RestTalk - SubProtect
6. Dragonium Z

*We’ve also got Steelium Z, SubSetup + Dragon Tail and TArrows+ TWaves but these are a bit too situational in my opinion
E: lol just found the new Set VR, turns out this is surprisingly accurate

The fact that this list encompasses an astounding amount of 12 sets, each with their own checks, should be pretty alarming by itself. However, out of all these sets, there are 3 that warrant a rank at the very top of the VR in my opinion: Choice Band, SubCoil + Glare and SubDD + Toxic, aka the sets that require the least amount of support to be hideously successful.

Lets elaborate on the very first set: Choice Band. Zygarde’s Choice Band set is hands down one of the best tools this meta possesses to break down opposite cores. While this has been the case for a very long time, there is one interesting change that has made this set even better nowadays: Glare (ironic Zygarde gets two of the most broken moves in the games, isn’t it?). Where Thousand Arrows and Extreme Speed have always been musts on this set, the 3rd and 4th slots have in turn always been open for customization. Earlier in the metagame, people had the choice to run a combination of Outrage/Iron Tail/Earthquake/Superpower/Toxic/Glare. Nowadays however, the options seem to have funnelled into 3 moves: either Outrage or Iron Tail (preferably Outrage) for the 3rd slot and Glare for the 4th. This has led into two things; first, this set faces less counterplay than ever, being able to hax through anything not named Buzzwoale, Avalugg or Slowbro and second, the days Choice Band tended to be a sitting duck in certain matchups (a reason why it isn’t S already) are over, as it now compresses wallbreaking, revenge killing and Paralysis-support in one set, thus always valuably contributing to the team in some form. Hence, Zygarde’s contemporary Band set is a straight upgrade compared to the recent past.

While Band may have been the only set that could have warranted an S-rank in the past, there are nowadays two more sets that qualify for this spot: SubCoil + Glare and SubDD + Toxic.

SubCoil + Glare takes advantage of the enormous amount of switches it forces by practically immobilizing its checks through guaranteed paralysis and consequently haxing to victory. After a Glare, Tapu Bulu, Magic Guard Clefable, Landorus and Scizor simply cannot call themselves checks anymore. It is undoubtedly the most frustrating Zygarde set to take down (except maybe Sub Double Dance under Screens but that requires support). Apart from the fact that it has created a whole new playstyle with Serperior, its potential to hax through anything when there’s no Tapu Fini on the opposite makes it an absurdly powerful wincon on any team. It’s not only abominably difficult to take down, what with the bulk that’s superior to even Hippowdon, it also provides a substantial amount of support to the teams it resides in. All in all, the rise of this set makes Zygarde a lot harder to account for.

SubDD + Toxic is another set that has risen to stardom due to Clefable’s absence and the ubiquity of Tangrowth and Tapu Bulu, two otherwise very sturdy Zygarde checks that get beaten due to the fact that this set trades paralysis for poison. The fact that this set lures Tang and Bulu and severely hampers their effectivity in a battle, allows itself and many other devastating mons, namely Ash-Gren, to break through the opposite squad.

All in all, I find Zygarde at least as pressuring and defining as Ash-Gren. While I could understand the reasons why the community didn’t want to rank it S in the first place, those simply do not hold true anymore and I don’t see a reason anymore to keep it at A+.

 

[Adapt or Die]

Whenever I take a look at the VR, I just can’t help myself from cringing about Zygarde’s placement. I know this topic has been beaten to death but trying never hurts anyone so once again, I present you:

Zygarde A+ >>> S

To start off, let’s break down Zygarde’s sets (numbered by viability in my opinion)…

1. Choice Band - SubCoil + Glare - SubDD + Toxic
2. Groundium Z
3. Double Dance
4. Weakness Policy
5. Defensive RestTalk - SubProtect
6. Dragonium Z

*We’ve also got Steelium Z, SubSetup + Dragon Tail and TArrows+ TWaves but these are a bit too situational in my opinion
E: lol just found the new Set VR, turns out this is surprisingly accurate

The fact that this list encompasses an astounding amount of 12 sets, each with their own checks, should be pretty alarming by itself. However, out of all these sets, there are 3 that warrant a rank at the very top of the VR in my opinion: Choice Band, SubCoil + Glare and SubDD + Toxic, aka the sets that require the least amount of support to be hideously successful.

Lets elaborate on the very first set: Choice Band. Zygarde’s Choice Band set is hands down one of the best tools this meta possesses to break down opposite cores. While this has been the case for a very long time, there is one interesting change that has made this set even better nowadays: Glare (ironic Zygarde gets two of the most broken moves in the games, isn’t it?). Where Thousand Arrows and Extreme Speed have always been musts on this set, the 3rd and 4th slots have in turn always been open for customization. Earlier in the metagame, people had the choice to run a combination of Outrage/Iron Tail/Earthquake/Superpower/Toxic/Glare. Nowadays however, the options seem to have funnelled into 3 moves: either Outrage or Iron Tail (preferably Outrage) for the 3rd slot and Glare for the 4th. This has led into two things; first, this set faces less counterplay than ever, being able to hax through anything not named Buzzwoale, Avalugg or Slowbro and second, the days Choice Band tended to be a sitting duck in certain matchups (a reason why it isn’t S already) are over, as it now compresses wallbreaking, revenge killing and Paralysis-support in one set, thus always valuably contributing to the team in some form. Hence, Zygarde’s contemporary Band set is a straight upgrade compared to the recent past.

While Band may have been the only set that could have warranted an S-rank in the past, there are nowadays two more sets that qualify for this spot: SubCoil + Glare and SubDD + Toxic.

SubCoil + Glare takes advantage of the enormous amount of switches it forces by practically immobilizing its checks through guaranteed paralysis and consequently haxing to victory. After a Glare, Tapu Bulu, Magic Guard Clefable, Landorus and Scizor simply cannot call themselves checks anymore. It is undoubtedly the most frustrating Zygarde set to take down (except maybe Sub Double Dance under Screens but that requires support). Apart from the fact that it has created a whole new playstyle with Serperior, its potential to hax through anything when there’s no Tapu Fini on the opposite makes it an absurdly powerful wincon on any team. It’s not only abominably difficult to take down, what with the bulk that’s superior to even Hippowdon, it also provides a substantial amount of support to the teams it resides in. All in all, the rise of this set makes Zygarde a lot harder to account for.

SubDD + Toxic is another set that has risen to stardom due to Clefable’s absence and the ubiquity of Tangrowth and Tapu Bulu, two otherwise very sturdy Zygarde checks that get beaten due to the fact that this set trades paralysis for poison. The fact that this set lures Tang and Bulu and severely hampers their effectivity in a battle, allows itself and many other devastating mons, namely Ash-Gren, to break through the opposite squad.

All in all, I find Zygarde at least as pressuring and defining as Ash-Gren. While I could understand the reasons why the community didn’t want to rank it S in the first place, those simply do not hold true anymore and I don’t see a reason anymore to keep it at A+.

I can get behind this with the emergence of Sub DD toxic giving it another potent set to work with. While I'm already on record saying I think Mage is the best mon in A+, zygarde is right behind it.

My issue with zygarde is that its "versatile" sets are all kinda lacking. Outside the top 3 lines, I don't really see a reason to use zygarde sets below double dance. Sure they may have some niche options on some specific team builds, but in general they're inferior to its best sets. Still this gives it 5 sets to work with which is more than just about any other mon in the tier.

Glare-coil is its best set and with serp has created a playstyle. It is a bit hax reliant, but can with a little luck just beat its counters and win a game on its own. Plus spreading glare is just hazardous. On its own I don't think this set elevates garde to s tier as its not as good as say ash-gren's specs sets, but it's definitely one of the best in the OU meta.

Sub-toxic is nifty new tech that severely hurts zygardes best answers in tangrowth and unaware clef (who due to my unscientific ladder observations seems to have overtaken mguard clef even on non-stall teams). It also hampers Tapu Bulu an otherwise solid garde check.

Choice band has fallen a bit in my opinion though banded iron tail blowing back bulu and clef is nice. Banded thousand arrows and espeed just don't hit that hard and locked glare while nice is decidedly inferior to other glare sets. Don't get me wrong this is a good set, and the best zygarde set that packs espeed, just has fallen a bit off its glory days.

Groundium-z is the best straight dragon dance set. Not much more I want to say about this one.

Double dance is a nice flexible set that lets you adapt to your opponents team, which I'm a sucker for. In general plays a bit inferior to glare-coil but can situationally be better and is less hax reliant.

Zygarde is also a great team player as both glare coil and sub-toxic make excellent partners to Ash-Gren's specs set.

So for glare coil being one of OU's most threatening sets and creating a playstyle, sub-toxic emerging as a very good fade to glare coil, and its other sets remaining good I say yeah garde should rise to S.

 

[MikeDawg]

My issue with zygarde is that its "versatile" sets are all kinda lacking. Outside the top 3 lines, I don't really see a reason to use zygarde sets below double dance. Sure they may have some niche options on some specific team builds, but in general they're inferior to its best sets.

Ash gren only has 1 fantastic set, and Heatrans best sets primarily vary just by choice of coverage/z crystal. It's silly to argue a lack of versatility when zygarde has almost half a dozen (from your comment) great sets that actually play differently; it's not even worth bringing up. Not to mention the myriad of other sets that, as you said, are niche but still viable. Zygarde continues to profoundly adapt to everything the meta throws at it, which imo is a huge sign that it's one of the (if not the) most versatile mons in the tier.

To add: an underrated point is that zygarde is still the undisputed best screens abuser in the history of OU. Its stellar bulk distribution makes it so sub double dance behind screens is the best, most consistent mon in the tier, period, to the point where its almost kind of boring to run. Being able to sub on hp ice lando and moonblast clef (if opting for a bulkier spread) is hilarious, not to mention the ridiculous bulk that a fast coil gives you, lettng you set up on things like kartana if you know your calcs (or take 40% from opposing band zygarde outrage at +1 def, letting you set up another coil and ddance, etc after leftovers/iapapa).


If zygarde isn't moved up, then there should be an S- rank. The fact that there are mons like zygarde, mawile, etc and formerly ash gren constantly being nommed for a raise means there is clearly a de facto rank between A+ and S, so the argument against an "arbitrary" in-between tier is arbitrary in itself. That tier exists whether or not finch decides it should be officially reflected in the op, so what's the deal ?

 

[NylaTheWolf]

I want to nominate a drop in rankings for a Pokemon. I would like to thank neomon and Jytcampbell for helping me make this post!

Alomomola: B ----> B-/C+

I don't believe Alomomola should be so high ranked. In my opinion, B rank is for Pokemon that are good, but not great. Some examples would be Weavile, Hydreigon, Blacephalon, Mega Venusaur, etc. I think good is a bit of an overstatement for this Pokemon.

Firstly, a big reason why I believe this is that it's simply outclassed. It's bulky, but there are so many bulky Water types in OU. One factor in its niche is it’s ability: Regenerator. And a certain other bulky Water Pokemon who happens to have Regenerator as well (Toxapex) severely outclasses it. Toxapex has the Poison typing to it, making it immune to Toxic unlike Alomomola. Toxapex also offers much more utility, such as Toxic, Toxic Spikes, and Haze to prevent it from being set up bait. Alomomola’s passivity, reliance on Scald burns, and being set up bait doesn’t help it. Another Pokemon that outclasses Alomomola is Tapu Fini. While I personally don't think Fini is that great, I do think it's a lot more viable than Mola. It has Taunt, Defog, Nature's Madness, and even Whirlpool to provide some utility. And-as long as its not using Gunk Shot-it also works well as a good check to Ash Greninja. Slowbro can also be considered more viable, with it being able to check or counter top tier Pokemon like Hawlucha, Mega Medicham, Mega Lopunny, Keldeo, and Zygarde. When you're considered worse than a Pokemon that's in NU and lower than you in viabiltiy, then I think that's saying something. Slowbro also has Regenerator, if you aren't using its Mega form. Its wide movepool, with access to moves like Energy Ball, Fire Blast/Flamethrower, a one-time recovery move in Slack Off, Ice Beam, Calm Mind, Block etc. Compare that to Mola's rather lackluster movepool. Rotom-Wash is another great pivot, with access to Volt Switch, Will-o-Wisp, Toxic, and Defog, and a great typing. It may be prey for Tapu Bulu and Kartana, but hey, so is Alomomola, and Rotom-W can at least Will-o-Wisp on a predicted switch by the opponent. Gastrodon provides great utility with access to Recover, an ability in Storm Drain, a great dual typing, Sludge Bomb to deal with Tapu Bulu, Clear Smog to prevent it from being set-up bait, and Ice Beam for Zygarde. It seems to be a more viable B-rank Pokemon than Alomomola. Overall, it seems that Mola is severely outclassed by other bulky Water types, especially ones who are also pivots.

I won't deny that Mola has a really neat niche as a Wish passer. Wish and Regenerator go hand and hand together. However, Chansey and even Clefable also have access to Wish and have much more utility than Mola. Chansey has Natural Cure and Heal Bell, to heal both itself and its teammmates from status conditions. It also has Seismic Toss, which I feel is much more reliable than Scald. Seismic Toss does reliable damage each time you use it, so it isn't as passive as Mola. It also has Stealth Rock, Soft-Boiled, and Thunder Wave. Clefable has Stealth Rock, Moonblast, Soft-Boiled, Calm Mind, Cosmic Power, Thunder Wave, Ice Beam, and abilities in Magic Guard and Unaware. Thus, Alomomola kind of falls behind.

Being outclassed isn't Mola's only problem though. Like I said, she is very passive. She kind of sits there, not doing much. It has very low Special Attack, so it's heavily reliant on Scald burns, and that's only a 30% chance. It's also very awkward to fit on teams. It ends up with very odd structures. It lacks any phazing moves, so it can be utter set up bait.

I think Mola doesn't really fit in with the B ranking. It has its niche, but is it that good? It doesn't really fit in with mons like Weavile, Blacephalon, Victini, and Mega Gyarados. It's simply outclassed by the amount of bulky Water types present in the metagame, and it is extremely passive. It may be annoying to take down, but it doesn't really do much. Thus, I think B- or even C+ is a more accurate rank for Alomomola.

 

[BlueLobster]

I want to nominate a drop in rankings for a Pokemon. I would like to thank neomon and Jytcampbell for helping me make this post!

View attachment 148222

Alomomola: B ----> B-/C+

I don't believe Alomomola should be so high ranked. In my opinion, B rank is for Pokemon that are good, but not great. Some examples would be Weavile, Hydreigon, Blacephalon, Mega Venusaur, etc. I think good is a bit of an overstatement for this Pokemon.

Firstly, a big reason why I believe this is that it's simply outclassed. It's bulky, but there are so many bulky Water types in OU. One factor in its niche is it’s ability: Regenerator. And a certain other bulky Water Pokemon who happens to have Regenerator as well (Toxapex) severely outclasses it. Toxapex has the Poison typing to it, making it immune to Toxic unlike Alomomola. Toxapex also offers much more utility, such as Toxic, Toxic Spikes, and Haze to prevent it from being set up bait. Alomomola’s passivity, reliance on Scald burns, and being set up bait doesn’t help it. Another Pokemon that outclasses Alomomola is Tapu Fini. While I personally don't think Fini is that great, I do think it's a lot more viable than Mola. It has Taunt, Defog, Nature's Madness, and even Whirlpool to provide some utility. And-as long as its not using Gunk Shot-it also works well as a good check to Ash Greninja. Slowbro can also be considered more viable, with it being able to check or counter top tier Pokemon like Hawlucha, Mega Medicham, Mega Lopunny, Keldeo, and Zygarde. When you're considered worse than a Pokemon that's in NU and lower than you in viabiltiy, then I think that's saying something. Slowbro also has Regenerator, if you aren't using its Mega form. Its wide movepool, with access to moves like Energy Ball, Fire Blast/Flamethrower, a one-time recovery move in Slack Off, Ice Beam, Calm Mind, Block etc. Compare that to Mola's rather lackluster movepool. Rotom-Wash is another great pivot, with access to Volt Switch, Will-o-Wisp, Toxic, and Defog, and a great typing. It may be prey for Tapu Bulu and Kartana, but hey, so is Alomomola, and Rotom-W can at least Will-o-Wisp on a predicted switch by the opponent. Gastrodon provides great utility with access to Recover, an ability in Storm Drain, a great dual typing, Sludge Bomb to deal with Tapu Bulu, Clear Smog to prevent it from being set-up bait, and Ice Beam for Zygarde. It seems to be a more viable B-rank Pokemon than Alomomola. Overall, it seems that Mola is severely outclassed by other bulky Water types, especially ones who are also pivots.

I won't deny that Mola has a really neat niche as a Wish passer. Wish and Regenerator go hand and hand together. However, Chansey and even Clefable also have access to Wish and have much more utility than Mola. Chansey has Natural Cure and Heal Bell, to heal both itself and its teammmates from status conditions. It also has Seismic Toss, which I feel is much more reliable than Scald. Seismic Toss does reliable damage each time you use it, so it isn't as passive as Mola. It also has Stealth Rock, Soft-Boiled, and Thunder Wave. Clefable has Stealth Rock, Moonblast, Soft-Boiled, Calm Mind, Cosmic Power, Thunder Wave, Ice Beam, and abilities in Magic Guard and Unaware. Thus, Alomomola kind of falls behind.

Being outclassed isn't Mola's only problem though. Like I said, she is very passive. She kind of sits there, not doing much. It has very low Special Attack, so it's heavily reliant on Scald burns, and that's only a 30% chance. It's also very awkward to fit on teams. It ends up with very odd structures. It lacks any phazing moves, so it can be utter set up bait.

I think Mola doesn't really fit in with the B ranking. It has its niche, but is it that good? It doesn't really fit in with mons like Weavile, Blacephalon, Victini, and Mega Gyarados. It's simply outclassed by the amount of bulky Water types present in the metagame, and it is extremely passive. It may be annoying to take down, but it doesn't really do much. Thus, I think B- or even C+ is a more accurate rank for Alomomola.

I completely disagree with this nom. First of all, it is not "outclassed" by like any of the waters you mentioned since it doesn't even have the same role. Molas main niche is a blanket physical wall with wish + regen to make it a solid wishpasser as well. Stuff like fini and rotom aren't even comparable since they're defoggers with the utility to check tran and in finis case ash gren too. More importantly, they lack recovery which means any team using mola would likely find these mons couldn't fill it's role as they get worn down where mola doesnt. Gastro again is not really a great comparison either since again, they check different stuff. Being a "better" bulky water doesn't mean mola should drop since they don't do the same thing, and I'm not sure I'd agree stuff like rotom is even better than mola tbh. To me this argument doesn't seem any better than saying blacephalon should drop because heatran is a better fire type. The only one that's even slightly comparable is slowbro since its a physically defensive bulky water but even then bro is using it's decent SpA and movepool rather than toxic + wishpass which means they're different enough to both justify places on different teams over each other related to what is needed. BTW mola beats everything you listed that bro checks aside from taunt or sub keld and being unable to come in V mmedi (although you should win 1V1 or at least help stall it out in conjunction with another check, and since reg bro loses to tpunch anyway I wouldn't call this a major + for bro), while also getting mons like gyara/mgyara lacking sub.
Molas defensive prowess is really something, allowing it to handle prominent physical threats like zyg extremely well. It can even help out massively V things it technically doesnt even check like mmedi due to wish + tect which can stall out stuff that's been toxic'd, also mmedi will be scared to spam hjk V mola too and zen doesn't 2hko so you can mind game it a little too, and if you screw up just regen ur health back. I'll concede the point on passiveness but it's predominantly used on stall so who really cares since it doesn't need to keep momentum which it can do anyway cause of regen.
The main point of any mola drop argument should be related to how difficult it is to fit on teams due to its passiveness rather than it being outclassed which is just plain wrong. Even then, it's ability to blanket check a good chunk of the physical meta along with its ability to wishpass can be vital to stall and even fat balance teams which can outweigh it's passiveness, especially since it can double without worrying about chip due to regen which automatically helps with that. Honestly I think this thing is often underrated due to a combination of pexs existence and ppl not looking at other bulky waters cause of it and it being thought of as a stallmon with no place on balance due to its passiveness which isn't the case since its traits allow it to not lose momentum/invite anything in which is the main problem with being passive. Looking at the B rank I can see why it was nommed down and could see it in B- (although I think it's fine where it is), but C+ is far too low for this often overlooked mon.

 

[NylaTheWolf]

I completely disagree with this nom. First of all, it is not "outclassed" by like any of the waters you mentioned since it doesn't even have the same role. Molas main niche is a blanket physical wall with wish + regen to make it a solid wishpasser as well. Stuff like fini and rotom aren't even comparable since they're defoggers with the utility to check tran and in finis case ash gren too. More importantly, they lack recovery which means any team using mola would likely find these mons couldn't fill it's role as they get worn down where mola doesnt. Gastro again is not really a great comparison either since again, they check different stuff. Being a "better" bulky water doesn't mean mola should drop since they don't do the same thing, and I'm not sure I'd agree stuff like rotom is even better than mola tbh. To me this argument doesn't seem any better than saying blacephalon should drop because heatran is a better fire type. The only one that's even slightly comparable is slowbro since its a physically defensive bulky water but even then bro is using it's decent SpA and movepool rather than toxic + wishpass which means they're different enough to both justify places on different teams over each other related to what is needed. BTW mola beats everything you listed that bro checks aside from taunt or sub keld and being unable to come in V mmedi (although you should win 1V1 or at least help stall it out in conjunction with another check, and since reg bro loses to tpunch anyway I wouldn't call this a major + for bro), while also getting mons like gyara/mgyara lacking sub.
Molas defensive prowess is really something, allowing it to handle prominent physical threats like zyg extremely well. It can even help out massively V things it technically doesnt even check like mmedi due to wish + tect which can stall out stuff that's been toxic'd, also mmedi will be scared to spam hjk V mola too and zen doesn't 2hko so you can mind game it a little too, and if you screw up just regen ur health back. I'll concede the point on passiveness but it's predominantly used on stall so who really cares since it doesn't need to keep momentum which it can do anyway cause of regen.
The main point of any mola drop argument should be related to how difficult it is to fit on teams due to its passiveness rather than it being outclassed which is just plain wrong. Even then, it's ability to blanket check a good chunk of the physical meta along with its ability to wishpass can be vital to stall and even fat balance teams which can outweigh it's passiveness, especially since it can double without worrying about chip due to regen which automatically helps with that. Honestly I think this thing is often underrated due to a combination of pexs existence and ppl not looking at other bulky waters cause of it and it being thought of as a stallmon with no place on balance due to its passiveness which isn't the case since its traits allow it to not lose momentum/invite anything in which is the main problem with being passive. Looking at the B rank I can see why it was nommed down and could see it in B- (although I think it's fine where it is), but C+ is far too low for this often overlooked mon.

You have some neat points. I guess maybe I was being a little unfair to it. I still think that B is too high for Alomomola, and that it's kind of too passive because it can't really do anything to the opponent. Sure, it's a great wall with neat traits, but I feel like other walls have a bit more to offer. Chansey is a great wall who DOES have access to Wish and reliable damage in Seismic Toss. Not to mention its amount of utility options.

But yeah, it is really hard to fit on a team. It ends up in weird structures, which hurts its usage. I know usage isn't proportional to how good something is, but I also think that if something is rarely used despite having a rather decent placing on the VR, there is a reason.

I am NOT saying Mola's niche is bad. It does have a really cool niche, but I still do think my points stand. You do make good points though!

 

[INSANE CARZY GUY]

I'm not sure it should be ranked as high with a decent amount of offensive grass mons for the ou meta, but I think mola's use of knock off and scald with regen also offers up some solid tools for dealing with stall breakers compared to chansey.

Chansey can hold up a team from the few taunt abusers and I won't lie I think I rather chance amola vs taunt magma storm heatran/gliscor than chansey amola while shouldn't switch in or stay in at least can burn Serp,s taunt sets(I love running it as a non banded zydrade counter)

 

[MetaNite]

I think Mola is a pretty bad Zygarde counter. It sets up a Substitute with impunity and proceeds to sweep. You basically need another Zygarde counter in your team if you use Mola to handle these variants. And if you switch in Mola thinking its Banded or doesn’t have Sub then it gets an additional DD or Coil and a Sub by the time you go to your second counter/check. Mola also relies on a burn to beat Hawlucha and any other set-up physical attacker 1v1. The use of Toxic on mons like Zygarde and Excadrill doesn’t help its case either.

I don’t think it fits with the other Pokemons in B and should drop to B-

 

[Harmless]

I would like to do a thing (first time for this thing)

Mega Garchomp from C- ---> C/C+

M-Garchomp always comes off as being completely inferior to its non-mega counter-part, and while yeah, regular Garchomp is much better (obviously), I do think that M-Gar is quite underrated.

First off, I'd like to mention the most standard set, its standard SD set, making it devastatingly powerful on the physical end, and not much can really switch in on it.
+2 252 Atk Garchomp-Mega Fire Fang vs. 248 HP / 212+ Def Tangrowth: 220-260 (54.5 - 64.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
maybe not the best example but hey it's something
+2 252 Atk Garchomp-Mega Fire Fang vs. 252 HP / 92 Def Ferrothorn: 512-604 (145.4 - 171.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
(still loses around 80% to EQ)
It also does well against toxapex, doing tons of damage while jolly and being an OHKO with adamant, and as for chansey, with a SD boost
+2 252+ Atk Garchomp-Mega Earthquake vs. 244 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 580-684 (82.6 - 97.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
(switching into fire fang puts it in range for an EQ KO)
So while a great wall-breaker physically, it's still not the greatest. But I want to talk about a special attacking lure set that I saw here. What I've been using is

Mild
252 spatk, 252 speed, 4 attack
HP ice
Fire Blast
Earthquake
Draco-meteor.
One of the great things about this set is that it doesn't have to rely on SD, and (being a lure) people don't expect it. Focusing on its special attack also makes it less afraid being burned and whatnot (although it does still kinda suck)
So for one, fire blast kills a lot of bulu sets in a clean 2 hits, so that's handy. HP ice is able to OHKO 80 HP, 0 Spdef choice scarf lando t, eliminating the obvious switch in.
252+ SpA Garchomp-Mega Hidden Power Ice vs. 80 HP / 0- SpD Landorus-Therian: 364-432 (107.3 - 127.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Clowning on gliscor is also a neat perk
Draco meteor is also very powerful and hits rotom-wash, tornadus-t pretty hard, zaygard, and anything in between that doesn't resist it and isn't named tangrowth!
It's bulk is also pretty decent, even with a negative def nature.
So in conclusion, we may be sleeping on Mega-Garchomp

 

[Adapt or Die]

Alommola should be used for one reason and one reason only: wish support. Any other matchup and there's a better bulky water for the job usually slowbro, or pex who both have regenerator, more reliable recovery and better movepools/offenses. Now Alommomola is a pretty sick wish passer since unlike Chansey or Clef it doesn't rely on wish to heal itself, but both chansey and clef bring significantly more to a team if you're looking for wish support on your team. For having a unique niche it is a deservedly ranked pokemon, but B rank is just too high for it. Drop it to B-.

 

[Mellow]

A+ → A
This is something I've been thinking about bringing up on here for quite a while. My main issue with Ferrothorn is how restrictive it can be in building due to it being a bulky Grass-type that doesn't do a good job of checking Ash-Gren or Zygarde - two major reasons bulky grasses are so common in the meta. Ash-Greninja being so prevalent atm kinda sucks for Ferro too in that it provides competition as a Spiker - obviously outside of Spikes they're vastly different Pokemon, but if I'm looking for a Spiker to pair with something, I'm gonna be looking at Ash-Greninja first. The decrease in usage of Tapu Koko, a mon that Ferrothorn checked, and the increase in usage of Pokemon that abuse the shit out of Ferrothorn like Heatran, Mega Mawile, and Volcarona mean the mons having a real tough time in the meta atm. It's definitely worse than everything else in A+, and about on par with shit like Celesteela in A.

A- → B+: Disagree

I won't go on too long since Srn's mentioned most of the things I would've said. I think the best set rn is definitely Draco / Psychic / Earthquake / Roost (Draco / HP Fire is probably pretty good too, but I don't like not being able to hit Fini), Draco's just so damn strong and really helps in breaking through shit like Ash-Gren, Mega Alakazam, Reuniclus, and Slowbro that can switch in if you lack Draco. Missing out on Ice Beam's not even that bad since Draco blows away Scarf Lando and Gliscor after slight chip, and you can just fish for SpDef drops on Bulu anyway and force them to heal up. Generally I think this things defensive utility is a little overlooked - it's one of the few mons in the tier outside of Tornadus that can take a hit from Kartana, outspeed and OHKO it in return, while also being a great check to Pokemon like Heatran, certain Zygarde sets, Rotom-W, and even SD Garchomp now that they're running Rockium.

B → C+: Agree
Alomomomomomomola sticks out like a sore thumb in B, there's a lot of other bulky Waters I'd pick before Alo. I'd much sooner use (Mega) Slowbro than Alomomola, which is a subrank below it, which is really telling of how out of place this thing is in B. It's so fucking passive, and one of the main mons it's supposed to check in Zygarde can just setup on it if it it's Sub, which really isn't unlikely considering how good SubCoil and SubToxic are rn. You can break Sub with Ice Beam at least I guess but that means you're even more passive, giving up Knock Off utility and Toxic being the only thing it can really deal damage with. Don't just take my word for it - it got a grand total of one usage throughout the entirety of Snake Draft , and it lost. | 76 | Alomomola | 1 | 0.34% | 0.00% |
To break up the negativity - it's a decent option on Stall as it can pass super fat wishes to hot stall mons rn in Mega Aggron and Mega Steelix, but it's not enough for it to be ranked this highly. Drop it further below Waters like Fini, (Mega) Slowbro, Pyukumuku, and Quagsire that are better picks than it a lot of the time.

B- → B: Agree
Gotta agree on this one, one of the best Lele and Magearna checks around and has some great role compression in Rocks, Wish support, U-turn, and being a fat Steel-type. It even has some versatility too - Scarf has seen some success recently on builds like this one (this is either by FLCL or ABR I'm not entirely sure) as a soft check to Psychics and other mons like Mega Diancie and Kyurem(-B) while also providing some nice speed control and great utility in Healing Wish and possibly Trick if electing to use it, and of course 60% flinch chance is as annoying as ever.

 

[Sickist]

Another nom in the same month? What? Anyways,

Buzzwole from C to C+

Buzzwole. This thing is actually a really nice mon to use atm. Checking Kartana (all but steelium varients[which have died out recently]), Mega Gyarados, Tapu Bulu, Zygarde, and non-SSSS Landorus-T in one slot is pretty nice. It also isn't a sitting duck and has ways to tear through the mons previously, whether it be with Drain Punch or Ice Punch. Although It's special defense is lackluster at best and it's terribly slow and cant even check Ash Ninja, it's still a great physical wall and deserves a boost in the VR thread.

And now for some calcs using this set:

Buzzwole @ Leftovers
Ability: Beast Boost
EVs: 248 HP / 236 Def / 24 Spe
Impish Nature
- Drain Punch
- Ice Punch
- Roost
- Bulk Up

Vs Mega Gyarados:

+2 252 Atk Mold Breaker Gyarados-Mega Waterfall vs. 248 HP / 236+ Def Buzzwole: 172-204 (41.2 - 48.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

0 Atk Buzzwole Drain Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Gyarados-Mega: 200-236 (60.4 - 71.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO


Vs Zygarde:

+1 252+ Atk Zygarde Outrage vs. 248 HP / 236+ Def Buzzwole: 154-183 (36.9 - 43.8%) -- 99.7% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

0 Atk Buzzwole Ice Punch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Zygarde: 248-292 (69.2 - 81.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO


Vs Landorus-Therian (Non SSSS):

+2 252 Atk Landorus-Therian Continental Crush (180 BP) vs. 248 HP / 236+ Def Buzzwole: 244-288 (58.5 - 69%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

-1 0 Atk Buzzwole Ice Punch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Landorus-Therian: 208-248 (65.2 - 77.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO


Vs Kartana:

+2 252 Atk Kartana Corkscrew Crash (140 BP) vs. 248 HP / 236+ Def Buzzwole: 339-399 (81.2 - 95.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery (Steelium Varient)

+2 252 Atk Kartana Bloom Doom (175 BP) vs. 248 HP / 236+ Def Buzzwole: 211-249 (50.5 - 59.7%) -- 82.4% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery (Grassium Varient)

+2 252 Atk Kartana All-Out Pummeling (175 BP) vs. 248 HP / 236+ Def Buzzwole: 141-166 (33.8 - 39.8%) -- 26.4% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery (Fightium Varient)

0 Atk Buzzwole Drain Punch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Kartana: 170-204 (65.3 - 78.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Vs Tapu Bulu:

+6 0 Atk Tapu Bulu Horn Leech vs. 248 HP / 236+ Def Buzzwole in Grassy Terrain: 174-205 (41.7 - 49.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery and Grassy Terrain recovery (bulu weak wtf)

0 Atk Buzzwole Ice Punch vs. 224 HP / 0 Def Tapu Bulu: 128-152 (37.9 - 45.1%) -- 43.2% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery and Grassy Terrain recovery

and you don't even let it get +4 half the time, the bulu part is kinda banter ngl :I

Anyways, to sum it up, Buzzwole, while it possess a very small niche, I think it is a niche that can be appreciated in the current metagame with Zygarde and Kartana everywhere. However, I don't think we'll ever be seeing this thicc bug above B-, so i'm only nomming for C+

Anyways, Good day to you all :)

 

[robofiend]

Regarding Alomomola to B-/C+: 100% agree

I'm actually not sure what role it serves on a team and what niche it might occupy in the OU meta. I haven't seen a team featuring it in ages. While it does have several niches, it's outclassed in each by other more viable pokemon in each.

1. Wish passer: Clef, Chansey, Jirachi all do this better than Momo, each without the need for status support to prevent Toxic from taking them down. While Regen is nice, each of these mons have more favorable typing than just pure water.
2. Zygarde checks: Clef, Bulu, Tangrowth, and Fini all compete for this role without having to run a subpar move like Ice Beam. While Zygarde can beat all of its counters, Clef and Fini in particular have become a lot better at it because of their immunity to status (Fini moreso with MT on its side).
3. Regen user: Pex, Tangrowth, Torn-T, and Slowbro all compete with Momo in this regard, with mons like Pex and Slowbro providing more robust defenses against Ash-Gren and M-Medi respectively while keeping the solid Water typing.
4. Water offense check: Momo's poor spdef, poor spA, and lack of Haze automatically make it worse against mixed attackers, set up attackers, and anything with Sub. While Tapu Fini, Pex, Bulu, and Tangrowth all check M-Gyarados, Ash-Gren (and a ton of other mons like Lando, Heatran, Prot Gren, and Tapu Koko), Momo pretty much only checks Zygarde, and that's only if it runs Ice Beam over Toxic/KO - further limiting its use against the rest of the meta.

I could go on but I think it suffices to say that Alomomola probably should have moved down months ago but the nom was never made. At the current moment it seems abundantly clear that this mon is not comparable to other mons in B rank.

 

[Harmless]

Well if alolomola is really good at killing discussion so that must be something so I'm going to throw my hat into the ring.

Alomomola from B ----> B-/C+ agree

It's quite rough fitting this luvdisc looking ass onto a team for one thing. And all it really does is just sit there and do not much of anything. There's also the fact that it's way to passive to do any real damage outside of toxic, so that's a downside. Other walls like chansey can at least do damage that isn't completely negligible. And that's kind of the probable with alolomola. It can do a lot of things, but it can't do any of them better than other mons can. Sure it checks Zygard under circumstances, but there are better options for that. Sure it has regenrator but so does toxapex so eh. And while it's HP stat is great, it's special defense is actually doo doo. For example:
252 SpA Choice Specs Greninja-Ash Dark Pulse vs. 40 HP / 252 SpD Alomomola: 276-325 (57.3 - 67.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Great job alomomola, really glad I put you on my team.
Basically, alomomola's only purpose is as a subpar zygard check and have fat wishes. And, in my opinion, it's pretty bad compared to everything else in the B rank.

So yeah, I'm beating a dead horse but drop this stupid fish.

 

[Daniel129384u2]

Alomomola from B --------> B-/C+ Agree
I think it should just drop to B-, not C+. I actually really like this mon in balance and stall, and all my successful teams use it. I've even defended it's rank many times in the past. However, you can't put Alomomola in any team. You have to build around it, which gets really annoying. All the teams I've made with it have always resorted to using many UU/PU mons to make it work. While it is a good mon that I think is very underrated, it's not amazing.

I would like to add that it does get access to Mirror Coat which I found really useful in surprising things like Rotom and Nidoking. This move gives Alomomola quite a bit of utility, but this move is usually useful only against specific team builds.

 

[Finchinator]

I'm going to try to get a slate going mid-late next week, so if you have any nominations to make, then you should make them soon. And if you have any comments on currently ongoing nominations, then you should get them up in the next number of days, too, unless it's about Alomomola. I think we've had enough discussion on the gay fish.

 

[Sickist]

Here I am once more with yet ANOTHER nom in the past month or so. wow.

Anyways, Tapu Lele from A to A+

Tapu Lele has shown itself to be a deadly force, even scarier then some of the meta's top threats such as Landorus-T or even Ash Greninja to some teams. It only has 1 real switch in, being Celesteela, which means a well played Lele can usually punch holes through most offensive teams or at least annoy them until Lele is removed. With a stellar 130 base Special Attack and access to moves such as Psyshock, Focus Blast, Calm Mind, etc, not even Chansey can act as an answer due to it either being blown back by specs psyshock or a boosted Z Focus Blast into a normal one. Now Lele does have its problems. Once Lele has killed something or clicked a move that let in something for free (ex: clicking psychic and a dark type coming in) it's pretty easy to revenge kill due to its semi-decent bulk. Edit time: Thanks Leonard for pointing out that I only said what it has done not why its better. Alright, moving on, Tapu Lele has gotten better due to it's checks being less present. Celesteela has been very hard to squeeze into a slot recently and Heatran (though very common) doesn't like taking Focus Blasts. Having Psychic Terrain is also very useful these days to block a choice locked Ash Greninja's Water Shuriken. Although it doesn't provide much utility besides breaking, Lele is still a force to be reckoned with. Despite Leonard saying It can't come in on alot, I disagree with this point. Lele has a decent number of chances (Not Alot, just more than a few.) to come in. For Example, on a priority move such as Bullet Punch, Extreme Speed, Water Shuriken. It can also come in on an expected Draco Meteor or Outrage/Dragon Claw. It can also be brought in on a double with proper prediction. As far as it's speed tier is concerned, yes it is at a weird spot, but it still outspeeds a large number of the meta. Plus, due to the factor of not being able to scout Lele's set very well unless it clicks CM or switches moves, Your opponent will not know if you are scarfed or not, therefore making it easier for Lele to settup. As Leonard stated, it's very good vs fatter teams which is the direction OU seems to be headed toward with stuff like Reuni and Slowbro seeing more usage, which makes Lele even better. I'm not comparing it Ash Greninja (Who deserved S rank btw) because Greninja does more obviously, and Lele is not bulky either so it's not a defensive wall. I feel it's somewhat comparable to Terrakion in UU. It's a really good mon in the meta atm, but has no defensive utility, therefore not worthy of S. However, due to what I have said in this post (and edit), I feel is worthy of the A+ rank.

Note to Finchinator or whoever is counting these noms: I have 3 which are Tapu Lele from A to A+, Buzzwole from C to C+, and Slowbro from B- to B.

Note to Leonard: Thanks for pointing those things out, reading back my argument was very weak and I appreciate you pointing that out. Although I disagree with you, I see your point and I respect that you have the intellect to point that out. Happy posting and have a good day.

 

[earl]

Here I am once more with yet ANOTHER nom in the past month or so. wow.

Anyways, Tapu Lele from A to A+

Tapu Lele has shown itself to be a deadly force, even scarier then some of the meta's top threats such as Landorus-T or even Ash Greninja. It only has 1 real switch in, being Celesteela, which means a well played Lele can usually tear most offensive teams apart or at least annoy them until Lele is removed. With a stellar 130 base Special Attack and access to moves such as Psyshock, Focus Blast, Calm Mind, etc, not even Chansey can act as an answer due to it either being blown back by specs psyshock or a boosted Z Focus Blast into a normal one. Now Lele does have its problems. Once Lele has killed something or clicked a move that let in something for free (ex: clicking psychic and a dark type coming in) it's pretty easy to revenge kill due to its semi-decent bulk. Overall, I feel Tapu Lele is probably the best Tapu or barely behind Tapu Bulu and is worthy of the A+ rank.

You haven’t really pointed out anything that’s changed for Lele- we’ve all known about these traits and they’re taken into account already for its A rank. While Lele is undoubtedly a devastatingly strong wallbreaker it still has its flaws, such as an inconvenient speed tier if not running scarf. And with scarf sets being heavily prediction reliant to get value, it can’t really “tear most offensive teams apart”. Also, it’s pretty difficult to get in as it’s typing+bulk doesn’t afford many opportunities to switch in on common mons without taking heavy damage (basically every mon ranked above it sans Toxapex). Compare this to Ash Gren, who after a kill boasts power and speed utility similar to Scarf Lele with the additional utility of priority and spikes/u-turn, and even before a kill can still easily stack spikes on checks and counters, generating momentum in the process. It’s still incredibly threatening against fatter teams if not scarf, but that’s why it’s ranked A in the first place.

Stay A

 

[baddjordan]

Slowbro B- to B

Hawluncha I think is slightly picking up again, and with less pex we're seeing more Keldeo. Plus Zygarde is still everywhere. Is an answer to Medi and Lopp, and also the best two mons in the tier.

I really like the AV set, although not common its a blanket switch in to almost anything that isnt grass. Future Sight is deadly, can help break through defensive cores when paired with something like CB Zygarde or Kart.

Jirachi B- to B
Although the meta hasnt changed much, I'm seeing more if it on ladder. A solid answer to Psychic spam and Magerna. Scarf set u-turns out and is also a decent cleaner. Healing Wish is also clutch late game. Anyone who has used it knows its a really nice glue for the team and often gives you momentum.

 

[N_Mareanie]

not on pc rn so i won't have some fancy sprites but otherwise imma forget to make this nome. it'll be brief

Keldeo: B- -->C+

fucking trash ass mon accomplishes nothing. can't do anything in a meta where literally every team has either growth/bulu, not even a good ashgren check since it takes a fuckton from hydro and scarf is absolutely atrocious. the meta being less psychic spam is good but mons like pex still fuck kelds to the max. it still has a niche but that niche is definitely not as big as some other mons in B-, like the unaware users (pyukumuku, quagsire), guss and zardy, who actually can potentially be really annoying or really threatening (zardy's case) on team preview and in battle, while that just really doesn't go for kelds. please stop using this mon and let it drop to UU :[

 

[Thunder Pwoell]

not on pc rn so i won't have some fancy sprites but otherwise imma forget to make this nome. it'll be brief

Keldeo: B- -->C+

fucking trash ass mon accomplishes nothing. can't do anything in a meta where literally every team has either growth/bulu, not even a good ashgren check since it takes a fuckton from hydro and scarf is absolutely atrocious. the meta being less psychic spam is good but mons like pex still fuck kelds to the max. it still has a niche but that niche is definitely not as big as some other mons in B-, like the unaware users (pyukumuku, quagsire), guss and zardy, who actually can potentially be really annoying or really threatening (zardy's case) on team preview and in battle, while that just really doesn't go for kelds. please stop using this mon and let it drop to UU :[

LOL i absolutely love this hate. a lot of mons are being used out of some nostalgia factor and downright groupthink. with the plethora of fairies and tang it's fall has definitely been coming. but like eh. i feel like it's not the mons fault, it's peoples lack of thought on their teams and sets. keldeo isnt broken anymore true but like its still decent. c+/b- material for damn sure but i feel like someone needs to actually just make their own set and make shit work. overall ive really just thrown shade and didnt say too much substance but idc, is it shade if it's true? Has anyone tried a tang breaker keldeo set - b/c its definitely possible. like just stop being choiced. By specs hp poison def doing bulu dirty af just people need to start actually thinking about their sets and being smarter in general but whatever dude. All in all, it's not trash lol but some of the sets are

 

[Nuked]

fucking trash ass mon accomplishes nothing.

it still has a niche but that niche is definitely not as big as some other mons in B-

So does it accomplish nothing or does it have a niche? You say it can't do anything in this meta then say it has a niche, so I'm not sure if you think it has worth or not. Regardless, Keldeo does have a niche, that niche being a Water-type breaker that can turn Toxapex into setup fodder which can be super rough for a lot of more defensively-oriented teams to handle. Keldeo's defensive utility also shouldn't be understated, sure it takes a fuckton from Hydro but Keldeo usually shouldn't be the first switch-in to it anyways, most bulky offensive teams are gonna have a Bulu / Tangrowth / even Ferrothorn which are way better switch-ins to Ash-Gren and I'd only switch Keldeo into it on a last resort. You've gotta admit that Keldeo at least checking all three S-Rank threats is pretty nice, and Keldeo also checks some other annoying threats like bulky Volcarona (on the rise), Mega Tyranitar, and Gliscor, which can really be tough for some teams to deal with, and other Water-types breakers (particularly Greninja formes) can't consistently do that. Overall, Keldeo's not amazing or anything but it's a Water-type Toxapex breaker that brings some decent defensive utility to the table if it has to and has a few traits over Protean Greninja that can make it worth using in a surprising amount of situations.

scarf is absolutely atrocious

I will agree that scarf is trash, so why use garbage scarf when you can use CM + Taunt, which completely cocks Toxapex (which is what you said fucks Keldeo to the max) and also 1v1s Tangrowth on the switch assuming you get a little chip beforehand (not hard if you get rocks up). It even beats fucking AV Magearna, like this thing is a legitimately scary breaker that can nab a KO or two against a lot of teams. I just don't understand, why bring up its worst set into an argument? By this logic I could call Excadrill a C+ Pokemon because it's a mediocre scarfer, when we all know it's better than that by merit of its other sets.

can potentially be really annoying or really threatening (zardy's case)

By this logic wouldn't Keldeo also by really annoying and threatening in some cases? We all know the issue Zard Y faces, with the rocks weakness and mediocre Speed / bulk / typing limiting its effectiveness against offensive teams, but it makes up for this with its ability to be really threatening to balance teams and its ability to gain free turns off common stuff like Bulu and Tangrowth. This is the same thing with Keldeo, it can be really threatening to teams that would usually rely on Toxapex to check it and against these teams it can often get a kill or two, which is the same thing Zard does.

We should also try to look at some of the meta trends going in favor of Keldeo right now. Psychic spam is dying down to an extent, Bulky Volcarona is establishing itself as a threat (which Keldeo perfectly checks by the way), Mega Lati@s formes are on the decline, Garchomp's rising which Keldeo can pressure, Mawile is super fucking common and Keldeo can check it offensively, Tornadus-T is more offensive nowadays meaning it can't switch into it that much, Clefable usage is going down, etc...

Overall, I feel like you are really underselling this Pokemon because you're looking at its worst set when Specs and Taunt + CM are both better at the specific issue that you mentioned Keldeo having, breaking through bulky Grass and Waters, and probably deserving of its current ranking in B- (which, by the way, isn't a fantastic ranking to begin with). It's not the best mon ever and of course it faces a good amount of issues in the meta but I think C+ is too low for it and I'd actually argue that B- is perfect for it right now because it's just better than most things in C+ and faces less issues than a lot of stuff in that rank.

 

[Adapt or Die]

So does it accomplish nothing or does it have a niche? You say it can't do anything in this meta then say it has a niche, so I'm not sure if you think it has worth or not. Regardless, Keldeo does have a niche, that niche being a Water-type breaker that can turn Toxapex into setup fodder which can be super rough for a lot of more defensively-oriented teams to handle. Keldeo's defensive utility also shouldn't be understated, sure it takes a fuckton from Hydro but Keldeo usually shouldn't be the first switch-in to it anyways, most bulky offensive teams are gonna have a Bulu / Tangrowth / even Ferrothorn which are way better switch-ins to Ash-Gren and I'd only switch Keldeo into it on a last resort. You've gotta admit that Keldeo at least checking all three S-Rank threats is pretty nice, and Keldeo also checks some other annoying threats like bulky Volcarona (on the rise), Mega Tyranitar, and Gliscor, which can really be tough for some teams to deal with, and other Water-types breakers (particularly Greninja formes) can't consistently do that. Overall, Keldeo's not amazing or anything but it's a Water-type Toxapex breaker that brings some decent defensive utility to the table if it has to and has a few traits over Protean Greninja that can make it worth using in a surprising amount of situations.

I will agree that scarf is trash, so why use garbage scarf when you can use CM + Taunt, which completely cocks Toxapex (which is what you said fucks Keldeo to the max) and also 1v1s Tangrowth on the switch assuming you get a little chip beforehand (not hard if you get rocks up). It even beats fucking AV Magearna, like this thing is a legitimately scary breaker that can nab a KO or two against a lot of teams. I just don't understand, why bring up its worst set into an argument? By this logic I could call Excadrill a C+ Pokemon because it's a mediocre scarfer, when we all know it's better than that by merit of its other sets.

By this logic wouldn't Keldeo also by really annoying and threatening in some cases? We all know the issue Zard Y faces, with the rocks weakness and mediocre Speed / bulk / typing limiting its effectiveness against offensive teams, but it makes up for this with its ability to be really threatening to balance teams and its ability to gain free turns off common stuff like Bulu and Tangrowth. This is the same thing with Keldeo, it can be really threatening to teams that would usually rely on Toxapex to check it and against these teams it can often get a kill or two, which is the same thing Zard does.

We should also try to look at some of the meta trends going in favor of Keldeo right now. Psychic spam is dying down to an extent, Bulky Volcarona is establishing itself as a threat (which Keldeo perfectly checks by the way), Mega Lati@s formes are on the decline, Garchomp's rising which Keldeo can pressure, Mawile is super fucking common and Keldeo can check it offensively, Tornadus-T is more offensive nowadays meaning it can't switch into it that much, Clefable usage is going down, etc...

Overall, I feel like you are really underselling this Pokemon because you're looking at its worst set when Specs and Taunt + CM are both better at the specific issue that you mentioned Keldeo having, breaking through bulky Grass and Waters, and probably deserving of its current ranking in B- (which, by the way, isn't a fantastic ranking to begin with). It's not the best mon ever and of course it faces a good amount of issues in the meta but I think C+ is too low for it and I'd actually argue that B- is perfect for it right now because it's just better than most things in C+ and faces less issues than a lot of stuff in that rank.

This post said just about everything I would want to about Keldeo. CM sets (taunt and sub) do just fine right now, and specs is threatening enough. Keep the unicorn in B-. To address some of the other more recent noms:

Buzzwole-> C+: Agree. Buzzwole has really nice typing for the meta right now countering big time mons Bulu and zygarde. It also hits freaking hard so its not easy to take advantage of though a ton of mons scare it out. Gets reliable recovery unlike mega cross, and doesn't come with the mega-stone opportunity cost. It has a role on two different archetypes in stall teams and fat balance. Wouldn't mind seeing it rising even higher.

Tapu lele -> A+: Disagree. Lele is great, but I think the meta if anything has gotten harder for it. AV mage is everywhere to check ash-gren and laughs in its face. Mega-alakazam falling has hurt the psychic spam strategy. CM blacephelon gives it stiff competition as a stall breaker, while other balance breakers like mega-maw are very popular. It's still threatening as all hell so it should stay A, but definitely should not rise.

 

[Guard]

Whenever I take a look at the VR, I just can’t help myself from cringing about Zygarde’s placement. I know this topic has been beaten to death but trying never hurts anyone so once again, I present you:

Zygarde A+ >>> S

To start off, let’s break down Zygarde’s sets (numbered by viability in my opinion)…

1. Choice Band - SubCoil + Glare - SubDD + Toxic
2. Groundium Z
3. Double Dance
4. Weakness Policy
5. Defensive RestTalk - SubProtect
6. Dragonium Z

*We’ve also got Steelium Z, SubSetup + Dragon Tail and TArrows+ TWaves but these are a bit too situational in my opinion
E: lol just found the new Set VR, turns out this is surprisingly accurate

The fact that this list encompasses an astounding amount of 12 sets, each with their own checks, should be pretty alarming by itself. However, out of all these sets, there are 3 that warrant a rank at the very top of the VR in my opinion: Choice Band, SubCoil + Glare and SubDD + Toxic, aka the sets that require the least amount of support to be hideously successful.

Lets elaborate on the very first set: Choice Band. Zygarde’s Choice Band set is hands down one of the best tools this meta possesses to break down opposite cores. While this has been the case for a very long time, there is one interesting change that has made this set even better nowadays: Glare (ironic Zygarde gets two of the most broken moves in the games, isn’t it?). Where Thousand Arrows and Extreme Speed have always been musts on this set, the 3rd and 4th slots have in turn always been open for customization. Earlier in the metagame, people had the choice to run a combination of Outrage/Iron Tail/Earthquake/Superpower/Toxic/Glare. Nowadays however, the options seem to have funnelled into 3 moves: either Outrage or Iron Tail (preferably Outrage) for the 3rd slot and Glare for the 4th. This has led into two things; first, this set faces less counterplay than ever, being able to hax through anything not named Buzzwoale, Avalugg or Slowbro and second, the days Choice Band tended to be a sitting duck in certain matchups (a reason why it isn’t S already) are over, as it now compresses wallbreaking, revenge killing and Paralysis-support in one set, thus always valuably contributing to the team in some form. Hence, Zygarde’s contemporary Band set is a straight upgrade compared to the recent past.

While Band may have been the only set that could have warranted an S-rank in the past, there are nowadays two more sets that qualify for this spot: SubCoil + Glare and SubDD + Toxic.

SubCoil + Glare takes advantage of the enormous amount of switches it forces by practically immobilizing its checks through guaranteed paralysis and consequently haxing to victory. After a Glare, Tapu Bulu, Magic Guard Clefable, Landorus and Scizor simply cannot call themselves checks anymore. It is undoubtedly the most frustrating Zygarde set to take down (except maybe Sub Double Dance under Screens but that requires support). Apart from the fact that it has created a whole new playstyle with Serperior, its potential to hax through anything when there’s no Tapu Fini on the opposite makes it an absurdly powerful wincon on any team. It’s not only abominably difficult to take down, what with the bulk that’s superior to even Hippowdon, it also provides a substantial amount of support to the teams it resides in. All in all, the rise of this set makes Zygarde a lot harder to account for.

SubDD + Toxic is another set that has risen to stardom due to Clefable’s absence and the ubiquity of Tangrowth and Tapu Bulu, two otherwise very sturdy Zygarde checks that get beaten due to the fact that this set trades paralysis for poison. The fact that this set lures Tang and Bulu and severely hampers their effectivity in a battle, allows itself and many other devastating mons, namely Ash-Gren, to break through the opposite squad.

All in all, I find Zygarde at least as pressuring and defining as Ash-Gren. While I could understand the reasons why the community didn’t want to rank it S in the first place, those simply do not hold true anymore and I don’t see a reason anymore to keep it at A+.

As an addition to this post, I'd like to stress the fact that I never meant to imply ranking Zygarde S on behalf of its Choice Band set. While that set is very good on its own, its Sub-sets provide far more utility and staying power and therefore are a much stronger case for the S rank-status. I just wanted to bring forth the intriguing addition of Glare.

Also, my post didn't make a distinction between the two distinct SubToxic sets, mentioning only SubDD + Toxic. You have to realize the presence of another similar set: Bulky SubGlare + Toxic. This set has as much of a claim for S-status as the SubDD set and thus should be taken into account as well.

Going to conclude with a thought that's bugging me to no end: how in heaven's name is Zygarde still ranked A+ in OU but S in CAP with exactly the same sets? If anything, CAP has a flurry of extra (extremely solid) switchins (Jumbao, Arghonaut, Tomohawk) in addition to the authentic switchins OU has!

E: Ah, Mega Crucibelle of course. Thanks for clearing up! Pretend this was never written down...