USUM UU Viability Ranking Thread V3

Duck Chris

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From A to A- : Disagree
Going to echo this sentiment. While increased oven usage is annoying, Mamoswine easily handles and pressures many pokemon that are rising in usage, such as Gligar, Altaria, Amoonguss, Blissey, Palossand, Chenaught, and Tsareena, while its usefulness against tier staples Latias and Hydreigon remains strong. Increased usage of one check, which can still be hit hard by coverage moves, is not enough reason to drop him.

Another aspect to be considered is that Mamoswine's primary niche as a physical wallbreaker is becoming even more valuable. Monsters like Bisharp and Terrakion greatly appreciate having their strongest checks threatened our friendly neighbourhood mammoth, many of which can be found in the list of rising stars mentioned above. I don't think Mamoswine has enough prowess to rise in effectiveness, but I think it remains at least as good as it has been before.
 
Amoonguss: B+ to A-
Want a regenerator pivot that doesnt mind toxic? Want the best defensive grass type in our tier? Want a Pokémon with a type with a TON of resistances? Want Clear Smog Support? Amoonguss is for you. Those reasons are pretty big actually. See you soon.
 

justdrew

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Amoonguss: B+ to A-
Want a regenerator pivot that doesnt mind toxic? Want the best defensive grass type in our tier? Want a Pokémon with a type with a TON of resistances? Want Clear Smog Support? Amoonguss is for you. Those reasons are pretty big actually. See you soon.
All this stuff is pretty much a basic description of Amoonguss. Since you are new here I am going to give you some friendly tips. When you're making a post in VR you wan to talk less about a Pokemon's stats and more about its role in the meta and how it functions in relation to other Pokemon. Talk about what it threatens, what threatens it, if its threats are getting more usage, if its threats are getting less usage. Stick to facts but don't mention things anybody can look up. Really dig into what a Pokemon does and if what it does is valuable in the current meta. I hope this helped and you continue to participate in this thread!

I'd also like to disagree with Mamoswine dropping. I would say that currently Mamoswine and Kommo-o are by far the best and most valuable offensive Stealth Rock setters. I don't think Rotom Heat getting a lot of usage is a good reason for Mamoswine to drop because: A) Thick Fat, B) Mamoswine can run Knock Off which, if Rotom Heat is running Leftovers and no Pain Split, effectively limits the amount of times Rotom Heat can switch in. And many Rotom Heat's do opt to run Toxic instead of Pain Split. And C) Offensive tends to always run great checks to Rotom Heat like Hydreigon, Latias, Mega Altaria, Kommo-o, etc, meaning that its easier for offense to switch into Rotom Heat after it defogs than it is for Rotom Heat to switch in and defog. Rotom Heat really needs to be careful about when it switches in because with 50 hp its not particularly bulky and it's 2x weak to rocks. In conclusion Rotom Heat in now way affects Mamoswine's viability enough for it to drop and Mamoswine is just too valuable on offense. It deserves A.
 

avarice

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Shaymin Unranked --> C- (could probably be higher)

Celebrate Shaymin has been picking up a bit despite the Rotom-H spam and it's more than a gimmick. pokeisfun went into detail in their metagame thread post, so I'll be a bit brief. Scarf Krookodile and Hydreigon, Scizor BP, and Mamo Ice Shard are some of the best revenge killers to cut a sweep short, but Shaymin can stomach them. Shaymin appreciates being able to take advantage of the bulky grounds/waters that pop up thanks to terrakion. However, it still takes up a Z Crystal, can only be used once, and can't break fatter special walls without the special defense drops from seed flare. Overall, though, Shaymin has been used with success on non-veil builds as of late and has proven to be viable in the current metagame especially with pursuit support.
 
All this stuff is pretty much a basic description of Amoonguss. Since you are new here I am going to give you some friendly tips. When you're making a post in VR you wan to talk less about a Pokemon's stats and more about its role in the meta and how it functions in relation to other Pokemon. Talk about what it threatens, what threatens it, if its threats are getting more usage, if its threats are getting less usage. Stick to facts but don't mention things anybody can look up. Really dig into what a Pokemon does and if what it does is valuable in the current meta. I hope this helped and you continue to participate in this thread!

I'd also like to disagree with Mamoswine dropping. I would say that currently Mamoswine and Kommo-o are by far the best and most valuable offensive Stealth Rock setters. I don't think Rotom Heat getting a lot of usage is a good reason for Mamoswine to drop because: A) Thick Fat, B) Mamoswine can run Knock Off which, if Rotom Heat is running Leftovers and no Pain Split, effectively limits the amount of times Rotom Heat can switch in. And many Rotom Heat's do opt to run Toxic instead of Pain Split. And C) Offensive tends to always run great checks to Rotom Heat like Hydreigon, Latias, Mega Altaria, Kommo-o, etc, meaning that its easier for offense to switch into Rotom Heat after it defogs than it is for Rotom Heat to switch in and defog. Rotom Heat really needs to be careful about when it switches in because with 50 hp its not particularly bulky and it's 2x weak to rocks. In conclusion Rotom Heat in now way affects Mamoswine's viability enough for it to drop and Mamoswine is just too valuable on offense. It deserves A.
Honestly the general consensus of Mamoswine being nommed to drop due to Heattom’s usage isn’t a good enough reason to why it shouldn’t drop. It’s no surprise to anyone that Mamoswine is a really dangerous offensive threat that’s incredibly hard to switch into but a lot of teams to usually end up having secondary counter measures to Mamoswine then just Heattom and it isn’t even on purpose. Mamoswine gets hurt by Terrakion’s presence too as it has increased the popularity of the Bros who check Mamoswine considerably well. Not only that, but Mamoswine isn’t the main rocker on the current mainstream HO build, Clanger is. If we’re going to go through this thought process of dropping well-rounded mons in their own respect like Mega Manectric and Hippowdon due to increased competition (which is one I agree with as do many others), than I do not see why this doesn’t apply to Mamoswine as well.

I do agree with Amoongus to A- though as I find its initial drop a couple months ago to be a little unfair. Shaymin is C- in viability but S in cuteness as well.
 
Discussion Points:
Mamoswine A -> A-: Mamoswine has been disadvantaged by Rotom-H’s huge surge in relevance, though it also dislikes the healthy competition several other breakers and offensive rockers have recently been providing it with. Kommo-o, Primarina, and Nihilego among some other threats have been showcasing worth as either breakers of offensive hazard setters that compete with it for a slot, which has made it less of a staple pick on the one play style it can really fit well on. It still stands as one of the scariest breakers around, but a drop is worth bringing into question.

Infernape A- -> A: Infernape’s Nasty Plot set has been doing it a lot of favors in the metagame recently, abusing team structures that lack the few Pokemon capable of tanking its STAB attacks and retaining great matchups against several archetypes. Its mixed set has also seen great use as a reliable Scizor/Bisharp check upon using Slack Off more frequently, further adding to its customizability and the many positive traits it can provide to teams it’s fitted on. The issues it can run into regarding its frailty, struggle to combat the presence of threats like Latias and Mega Altaria, and its 4mss could keep it from rising from A-, though the arguments in favor of an upgrade certainly are compelling.

Rotom-H A- -> A: Rotom-H is slowly becoming a huge factor of the metagame thanks to the delightful role compression and utility it can bring to teams both offensively and defensively. It checks a huge portion of threats while checking multiple boxes for teambuilders and is only continuing its steady surge in usage in both tournament play and on ladder. Its inability to adequately damage the tier’s defining Dragon-types, struggles against bulkier Pokemon, and Stealth Rock weakness are all worth factoring into the discussion when assessing its viability, however.

Gligar B+ -> A-: Gligar checks a huge variety of threats in the UU metagame and is entering the discussion for the most useful defensive Ground-type the tier has to offer. Its ability to consistently check a huge array of threats while providing great utility in the forms of Defog or U-turn, crucial tools that its main competition in Hippowdon lacks access to, has been showcased very nicely in recent months. While it still runs into its fair share of flaws, whether or not its combination of tools allows it to be on par with Hippowdon, which also is a less sturdy check to trending options in Kommo-o and Hippowdon, is worth discussing at this stage.

Chesnaught B+ -> B: Chesnaught is still a great pick on account of its ability to check several threatening Dark-types, though as the metagame has adapted to Bisharp and Zeraora’s presences more Chesnaught’s weaknesses have become more pronounced. It often lets some of the tier’s harder offensive forces to work around, like Latias, Mega Altaria, Moltres, and Togekiss, into play for free while it can also struggle to check Water-types as reliably as it’d like to with Primarina and Mega Slowbro being strong picks. While still a great entry hazard setter, it may not be as urgent or strong a choice in teambuilding as when the metagame was slightly more frantic.

Crawdaunt B+ -> B: Crawdaunt is still a threatening breaker, though the metagame has begun adapting to its presence more in recent weeks. It faces heavier competition for a team slot on spikes offense due to the rise in a few different solid abusers, though it also doesn’t combat the further increased usage of Fighting-types well and doesn’t appreciate how strong of picks all of Kommo-o, Mega Altaria, and Hydreigon currently are. Dropping to B after recently rising seems to certainly be a possibility.

Gengar B -> B+: Gengar’s Substitute + Fightinium Z set has proven vital in allowing it to combat a lot of disadvantageous trends the metagame was throwing at it. Through its versatility it has found a way to better circumvent its Pursuit weakness than the majority of other Pursuit weak Pokemon in the metagame, while it has also appreciated the downfall of Alolan Muk and increased viability of a play style it fits well on in Spikes offense. It still struggles to retain really any defensive utility whatsoever and can still be easy to take advantage of, though its adaptations to its weaknesses are worth bringing up.

Chandelure B -> B-: Chandelure’s been on a decline for a while now and B- may be a better rank to reflect its current viability. It struggles to circumvent Hydreigon being the best it’s ever been while working around its weaknesses to Kommo-o, Pursuit trappers, and the general offensive metagame has proven to be more of a task than for Gengar. Whether it lacks an identity enough to stay B or still has the potential to shine is worth discussing more in depth.

Mega Pidgeot B- -> C+: Pidgeot hasn’t been a relevant part of the metagame for a long time now and continuing to drop could definitely reflect where it’s currently at in the metagame. It doesn’t provide many totally necessary tools in teambuilding compared to the benefits that Moltres and Togekiss can offer to larger degrees of consistency. It also lacks appreciation for Rotom-H’s upward surge in relevance and suffers from the opportunity cost of taking up a mega slot. If these flaws are worth dropping it further is worth currently talking about.

Swampert B- -> C+: It’s no secret that the metagame has been kinder to Swampert than it is now. Several Ground-types have much more applicable current niches and Swampert’s lack of recovery hinders it greatly in a metagame that calls on Ground-types to consistently check such a large variety of threats. However, it still provides teams with a reliable answer to Rotom-H, functioning as one of the sturdiest rockers against the oven, and also enjoys the benefits of its typing and bulk allowing it to consistently check Mega Aerodactyl and Mega Manectric, which is recently less inclined to run Hidden Power Ice, while acting as an emergency answer to Pokemon like Cobalion if need be.
Alright, lets roll down the list, shall we? I think I have a lot to say on this one. First, lets address the giant pig-nosed elephant in the room.

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to A-: Agree. Mamoswine's breaking power isn't just hindered by the dominance of Rotom-H. It's also hindered by the omnipresent Slowbro duo that Terrakion has pulled out into the open. They force Mamoswine into a 4MSS situation in which it has to pick between Freeze Dry or Stone Edge for the Bros or Rotom-H respectively. Or Knock off as a weird mid-ground that doesn't actually completely solve either problem right away while also hitting Bronzong I guess.... Anyway, this isn't the only issue. The rocks set is pretty much unviable now. Tbf it was never truly that amazing to begin with, but with it gone, it's harder to justify Mamo's spot on a team. Another thing that makes it hard to justify on a team, is that it's very miniscule defensive utility doesn't exist anymore. It used to be an alright answer to certain electrics. But with their investment in new coverage, it loses to every single one. With literally every viable electric right now being able to threaten Mamoswine right now instead of the other way around, along with it being severely outclassed as an offensive hazard setter at this stage, begs the question: WHERE DO I USE THIS? It doesn't really have much of a place on most offenses right now due to it's rocks set being awful and not helping the team with electrics very well anymore, not letting it compress roles as well as similar breakers and/or offensive rockers. Speaking of offense, it's resurgence as not quite a dominant, but at least VIABLE archetype has also severely hampered this mon, since it no longer holds a mandatory or even major role on offensive builds, the offense builds only serve to hinder it by carrying a slew of fast mons that can KO Mamoswine like Shark, Crawdaunt and Scizor (With their priority), Terrakion, Cobalion, Infernape, etc. Really limiting it's ability to be anything more than a hindrance against those faster builds. Also note how I just mentioned like 3 fightings there. Cause there are fightings EVERYWHERE in this meta. And a lot of teams have them right now. This means that even teams without it's primary three omnipresent checks, Rotom-H and the two Bros, can usually handle it with some type of offensive measure.

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to A: AGREE. This thing is honestly flooring. It has so many options for sets and so many options within those sets. Nasty Plot, Mixed, it can do it all. And having so much defensive utility against things like Bisharp and Scizor for something so fragile also makes it an incredible pick right now. Some of my favorite teams to play use this mon to great success.

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to A: Agree. This thing has a surprising amount of options. I built a team with pain split + toxic Rotom recently and it's such a menace to a number of teams that think they're prepared for it. I also built a team at one point that used HP ice as a lure for Gligar in conjunction with a Terrak. Its not hard these days to make a team in which this thing can get an extra moveslot, And the insane amount of role compression is to die for. It's an absolute staple on bulky teams outside of full stall. The fact that it also doesn't really clash too much with similar checks to what it handles, such as the steels and rocks that check flyings, and not clashing too much with options like Bro and other bulky waters that also handle Mamoswine, actually makes it a lot easier to build around in a way where it's not getting horribly overwhelmed than you think. I make a lot of teams that are stacked against mons Rotom checks by complete accident half the time, and that's not a bad thing when it comes to conserving this throughout a game.

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to A-: Agree. I thought this thing was the best ground type for about a month now and it's so good to see the viability rankings start to reflect that. It can set or control hazards, it can check a slew of massive electric or fighting threats. It can keep momentum through U-turn. also fit into an insane amount of teams. This is only mon other than Hydra where I can say both my offenses and full stalls have it. It's insanely splashable, can cover so much, can take care of itself with so little if any team support needed. This mon is utterly amazing, it deserves a bump in ranking.

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to B: Disagree. Just because Bisharp and Zeraora have died down from their initial hype, doesn't mean they aren't gonna show up. This brings a lot of value to a team for what it checks and also for being able to mess with certain matchups being the only strictly defensive spiker. It does greatly struggle with mons like the flyings and Latias, but Chesnaught can take advantage of those switch-ins by setting it's spikes, hindering the teammates of those Latias, Togekiss, Moltres, etc. unless they have defog. This actually gives Chesnaught a surprising amount of momentum for such a stagnant wall.

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to B: Disagree. Crawdaunt still holds a lot of value because it can actually do a great chunk of damage to it's answers not named Chesnaught or Altaria (And even Altaria can take a good chunk if it's not an ultra fat variant) . And while I do disagree that Chesnaught deserves a rank down, I won't deny that's been used less lately, giving this thing more leg room to do obnoxious amounts of damage to it's other prominent checks, either limiting their ability to repeatedly check Daunt or in the case of Hydra and Alt specifically force a roost, gaining momentum. It's Aqua Jet also helps it solve it's problems with fightings to degree, as two of the most appealing ones right now are looking to be Terrakion and Infernape, who Aqua Jet soundly beats assuming Infernape isn't running rare priority. Being able to revenge Terrakion in particular is a really valuable niche for a dark type right now when other darks can severely struggle with it's presence.

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to B+: Agree. Gengar wasn't an OU king for every gen up to 7 doing the same thing over and over. The name of this thing's game is adapability and versatile movepool. No matter what meta you throw at Gengar, it's going to find another sneaky way to worm itself around it. The sub fightinium set is just one example of this. It also is quite fond of the offense uptick, letting it find a home on teams that don't care as much about it's defensive utility.

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to B-: Agree. "Why mama? Why wasn't I born with ways to circumvent Hydreigon like Celebi and Crawdaunt were? Why must I be cursed to be beaten down by it every game? At this rate people are just going to think I'm a worse Gengar or Decidueye with a niche bullet punch resist."

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to C+: Agree. Look up at my little rant on Mamoswine and you'll see where I'm going with this. WHERE WOULD I USE THIS THING???? It doesn't have the offensive prowess to break it's checks, it doesn't have the defensive prowess to really check much of anything outside of ultra passive grass types, it's primary niche is that it's an even faster, harder-swinging bird than Moltres or Togekiss. But at the sacrifice of a mega slot and pretty much any utility. Pidgeot is a case of a mon min-maxing into exactly one thing it's good at. And that's what decides it's place in the meta. And right now, the meta really doesn't have a spot for that one thing Pidgeot is good at: Clicking hurricane and being fast while doing so. It's a shame because this thing was actually kinda alright during the grass meta, but this is obviously a meta that doesn't favor it in the slightest.

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to C+ Agree. Oh how the great have fallen. I remember when you were A- rank, my dear Swampert. But alas, this thing has fallen so hard. The demand for grounds that also check fightings, as well as grounds that can continue to check electrics in spite of toxic or grass coverage, Swampert has lost so much defensive utility its not even funny. It's best niche right now is as a check to Rotom-H that can keep rocks up against it, but I'd argue it's even outclassed in THAT niche because of the presence of Seismitoad, who can check more passive waters with it's water immunity and be an overall bigger nuisance to the dominant Empoleon, and Rhyperior, who at least has some offensive versatility with options like fire punch, ice punch, and SD as well as the ability to check flying types. Swampert...Barely checks anything outside of Rotom-H at this point. Its hard enough to justify, and even harder to justify over similar nuisances to Rotom-H. This is easily the worst Swampert has ever been in an extremely long time, if it's even been THIS bad in UU before. Me having to say one of my favorite mons is this bad with complete honesty and facts to justify my words is like putting down Old fish Yeller. Sorry buddy, but you gotta drop.
 
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Rejected nominations and this time's discussion slate incoming. Enjoy!
Latias: Stay S
Latias has simply too many opportunities to take games by the horns throughout any match, thanks to its fantastic combination of traits. Its typing, coverage, versatility, and stats all combine to turn it into a Pokemon fully capable of warping the metagame around it to the degree of warranting S rank, and nothing has changed drastically enough for dropping to be fair right now, since even in spite of the rises of Bisharp and Steelix options like Electrium Z and Choice Specs Surf are seeing some play. Its degree of offensive and defensive centralization and influence over the tier is simply massive and what it currently brings to the metagame is fully that of a Pokemon you’d find in S.

Terrakion: Stay A+
Terrakion is very possibly the most overtly threatening offensive Pokemon in the tier, though that isn’t automatically synonymous with being the most defining presence around. It runs into a few shortcomings that hinder its ability to maintain the same influence as Scizor, Latias, or Hydreigon. Its subpar defensive utility limits its opportunities to come into play and begin exerting its power, while it also struggles with a lack of general set versatility or splashability, as well as the ability to be taken advantage of more easily than what currently sits in S, necessitating more support for it than what an S rank would indicate. While certainly fantastic and centralizing, it still has yet to quite compare to the most dominant of threats due to the flaws it runs into in several matches.

Lucario: Stay B+
Lucario has received a lot of well deserved hype as a fantastic stallbreaker and sweeper with its Nasty Plot set, though ranking it alongside Infernape wouldn’t represent where the two currently are in the metagame in comparison to one another. Lucario’s NP set has more reliability against bulkier builds, though Infernape’s typing, Speed tier, and customizability all provide significant advantages that give it more options in the metagame and allow it to be more applicable to different team needs. If Infernape were to rise Lucario also rising wouldn’t be out of the question, though for now the former’s versatility and reliability across the board justifies keeping the latter in B+.
Discussion Points:
Mamoswine A -> A-: Mamoswine has been disadvantaged by Rotom-H’s huge surge in relevance, though it also dislikes the healthy competition several other breakers and offensive rockers have recently been providing it with. Kommo-o, Primarina, and Nihilego among some other threats have been showcasing worth as either breakers of offensive hazard setters that compete with it for a slot, which has made it less of a staple pick on the one play style it can really fit well on. It still stands as one of the scariest breakers around, but a drop is worth bringing into question.

Infernape A- -> A: Infernape’s Nasty Plot set has been doing it a lot of favors in the metagame recently, abusing team structures that lack the few Pokemon capable of tanking its STAB attacks and retaining great matchups against several archetypes. Its mixed set has also seen great use as a reliable Scizor/Bisharp check upon using Slack Off more frequently, further adding to its customizability and the many positive traits it can provide to teams it’s fitted on. The issues it can run into regarding its frailty, struggle to combat the presence of threats like Latias and Mega Altaria, and its 4mss could keep it from rising from A-, though the arguments in favor of an upgrade certainly are compelling.

Rotom-H A- -> A: Rotom-H is slowly becoming a huge factor of the metagame thanks to the delightful role compression and utility it can bring to teams both offensively and defensively. It checks a huge portion of threats while checking multiple boxes for teambuilders and is only continuing its steady surge in usage in both tournament play and on ladder. Its inability to adequately damage the tier’s defining Dragon-types, struggles against bulkier Pokemon, and Stealth Rock weakness are all worth factoring into the discussion when assessing its viability, however.

Gligar B+ -> A-: Gligar checks a huge variety of threats in the UU metagame and is entering the discussion for the most useful defensive Ground-type the tier has to offer. Its ability to consistently check a huge array of threats while providing great utility in the forms of Defog or U-turn, crucial tools that its main competition in Hippowdon lacks access to, has been showcased very nicely in recent months. While it still runs into its fair share of flaws, whether or not its combination of tools allows it to be on par with Hippowdon, which also is a less sturdy check to trending options in Kommo-o and Hippowdon, is worth discussing at this stage.

Chesnaught B+ -> B: Chesnaught is still a great pick on account of its ability to check several threatening Dark-types, though as the metagame has adapted to Bisharp and Zeraora’s presences more Chesnaught’s weaknesses have become more pronounced. It often lets some of the tier’s harder offensive forces to work around, like Latias, Mega Altaria, Moltres, and Togekiss, into play for free while it can also struggle to check Water-types as reliably as it’d like to with Primarina and Mega Slowbro being strong picks. While still a great entry hazard setter, it may not be as urgent or strong a choice in teambuilding as when the metagame was slightly more frantic.

Crawdaunt B+ -> B: Crawdaunt is still a threatening breaker, though the metagame has begun adapting to its presence more in recent weeks. It faces heavier competition for a team slot on spikes offense due to the rise in a few different solid abusers, though it also doesn’t combat the further increased usage of Fighting-types well and doesn’t appreciate how strong of picks all of Kommo-o, Mega Altaria, and Hydreigon currently are. Dropping to B after recently rising seems to certainly be a possibility.

Gengar B -> B+: Gengar’s Substitute + Fightinium Z set has proven vital in allowing it to combat a lot of disadvantageous trends the metagame was throwing at it. Through its versatility it has found a way to better circumvent its Pursuit weakness than the majority of other Pursuit weak Pokemon in the metagame, while it has also appreciated the downfall of Alolan Muk and increased viability of a play style it fits well on in Spikes offense. It still struggles to retain really any defensive utility whatsoever and can still be easy to take advantage of, though its adaptations to its weaknesses are worth bringing up.

Chandelure B -> B-: Chandelure’s been on a decline for a while now and B- may be a better rank to reflect its current viability. It struggles to circumvent Hydreigon being the best it’s ever been while working around its weaknesses to Kommo-o, Pursuit trappers, and the general offensive metagame has proven to be more of a task than for Gengar. Whether it lacks an identity enough to stay B or still has the potential to shine is worth discussing more in depth.

Mega Pidgeot B- -> C+: Pidgeot hasn’t been a relevant part of the metagame for a long time now and continuing to drop could definitely reflect where it’s currently at in the metagame. It doesn’t provide many totally necessary tools in teambuilding compared to the benefits that Moltres and Togekiss can offer to larger degrees of consistency. It also lacks appreciation for Rotom-H’s upward surge in relevance and suffers from the opportunity cost of taking up a mega slot. If these flaws are worth dropping it further is worth currently talking about.

Swampert B- -> C+: It’s no secret that the metagame has been kinder to Swampert than it is now. Several Ground-types have much more applicable current niches and Swampert’s lack of recovery hinders it greatly in a metagame that calls on Ground-types to consistently check such a large variety of threats. However, it still provides teams with a reliable answer to Rotom-H, functioning as one of the sturdiest rockers against the oven, and also enjoys the benefits of its typing and bulk allowing it to consistently check Mega Aerodactyl and Mega Manectric, which is recently less inclined to run Hidden Power Ice, while acting as an emergency answer to Pokemon like Cobalion if need be.
Mamoswine A -> A-: Agree. With oven spam being prevalent in the metagame, Mamoswine is seeing a decrease in usage due to Heatoms general walling. While Mamo has ways around Rotom Heat, it isn't stronger than its other options, making it hard to justify. Mamoswine is still a very real threat to slower teams due to it's great typing and power, but not impactful enough to circumvent it's weakness to the rotom-h infested meta.

Infernape A- -> A: Agree. Infernape has the ability to be incredibly threatening to many prominent Pokemon of the tier, such as Hydreigon, Mega Aggron/Mega Steelix, and Amoonguss due to its raw power with nasty plot, and general utility provided with u-turn and stealth rocks. While it does lose to Latias and Primarina, proper team support can circumvent this weakness and help Infernape shine. As per usual, Infernape is a incredibly solid pokemon.

Rotom-H A- -> A: Strongly Agree. Rotom-H shows increadible promise in the tier, with its absolutely stellar role compression and its ability to check many threatening Pokemon of the tier and pressure hazards effectively. It shines even brighter when paired with proper team support, whether it be Wish or cleric. Truly a great Pokemon in the current meta.

Gligar B+ -> A-:
Agree. Gligar, like its ou conterpart gliscor, has the coveted ability to stallbreak. This alone makes it an absolute hell to deal with on either stall or balance, due to its spike and toxic immunity. It brings a lot of utility to the table for the cost of one team slot, making it a welcome addition to most teams.

Mega Pidgeot B- -> C+: Agree to an extent. There is no hiding it. The current metagame is not kind to UU's resident flying mega, with Rotom-H running rampant and mega pidgeot's utility being less coveted. But Mega Pidgeot can always find itself on offensive teams due to its undeniably outstanding power, hitting anything increadibly hard with its stab hurricanes. Mega Pidgeot is polarizing in a sense, as it is extremely powerful yet it is much harder to effectively use then moltres or togekiss.

Swampert B- -> C+:Agree. I can't say much that hasn't already been said. Swampert has the short end of the stick, and it cant hold on to that. Sadly, Swampert's typing and utility are filled better by pokemon such as rhyperior, hippowdon, and soon to be pallosand with the rise of terrakion. Swampert simply cant survive in this situation, as the only useful role it fills is a rotom-h check, and there are better checks out there.
 
Slowbro and Mega Slowbro down to A-
I think both Slowbros are still among the scarier defensive threats available in the tier, though they feel less dominant than when they initially shot up in usage and I don't think they're on par with stuff like Kommo-o and Blissey. They both check really fearsome offensive threats like Terrakion and Mamoswine, though Mamoswine is starting to lose some usage while unintentional adaptations to both forms are being made as Pokemon like Primarina, Taunt mixed Kommo-o, Gengar, and Celebi are becoming more prevalent than in previous iterations of the metagame. Terrakion is also an uncomfortable Pokemon for either Slowbro to combat, as base forme can only really pivot into Choice Band reliably due to the threat of Rockium Z and while Mega can tank a boosted Z-Stone Edge, it has to mega evolve and forfeit Regenerator to reliably tank one hit and could be crippled for the rest of the match upon disposing of or weakening Terrak. They can also struggle checking various Fighting- and Fire-types in the metagame which can be poor qualities for Pokemon of their typings, given that NP Infernape, NP Lucario, Moltres, and Rotom-H are all common threats in the meta with easy means of breaking through both of them. The introduction of Bisharp, Hydreigon being the best it's ever been, and Crawdaunt being much more than an afterthought of the metagame compared to months back also hurt them to varying extents. I think both are great, but overall the rises in some offensive threats capable of muscling past the bros, the popularity of several Fighting- and Fire-types they can't check too reliably, the viability of several various Dark-types, and Mamoswine falling off some could equate to a drop to reflect their decreased urgency and relevance.

With that unpopular opinion out of the way, I'd like to talk about a few things in the lower ranks I think could happen. Hopefully this isn't as controversial oop.

C+ down to C: Cofag gets barely any usage at all and is faced with a lot of difficulties in the metagame. It's pretty hard and uncomfortable for it to realistically get two full turns to set up since there are a lot of offensive Pokemon running around that can overwhelm it really easily despite its good bulk (lack of recovery hurts a ton). Blissey being popular on multiple play styles other than stall also hurts it while Hydreigon and Bisharp are also mainstays of the metagame. This just feels underwhelming, unproven, and unpopular and I think C better suits it.

C down to C-: Aurora Veil has struggled to be too relevant of an archetype for ages. It's not bad by any means but it doesn't get usage in high ladder play or tournaments and screens Azelf offense is something I've seen used here and there that is actually pretty potent and gives you the same thing in one slot in addition to utility like Taunt or U-turn. I just don't think there's enough to justify using veil offense for it to stay in a rank alongside stuff with more proven worth like Pyukumuku. Roserade is hard to justify over a lot of other options that either compete with it as a Grass-type or as an offensive Spikes setter, since Celebi and Tsareena are both pretty strong picks right now and Froslass is getting a lot of increased usage (Klefki and Chesnaught are also just consistently solid setters). It's super easy to offensively overwhelm too since its bulk is terrible and it doesn't have a particularly great Speed tier for an offensive mon. I think dropping it is fair for now.

Unranked: This thing is just so awkward to fit on teams, doesn't particularly provide a niche that isn't better provided by something like Froslass as a Spikes setter or Mamo as a breaker unless you need insane role compression, and a ton of the Steel- and Fighting-type heavy metagame bodies it. It seems like it'd hurt teams it's fitted on more than helping them and it has no serious usage at all. I think unranking is best since it's seriously even worse than the other crap in C-.
 

Hogg

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Thoughts on the current discussion slate:

Mamo to A-: Yeah, it's time. Mamoswine is still really threatening, and tears apart those boring Empo/Gligar balances, but in general the meta has not really favored it much recently. The LO Rocks set that was so good on offense for a while is struggling right now, and it really needs to opt for a fourth attack more often than not. That in turn makes it just that much harder to easily slot into teams, and I think a dip in viability accompanies that change. It's still good... but I mean, A- is still a good rank.

Infernape to A: Eh, I'm iffy on this one. The hype on LO 3 attacks + Slack has kinda died down a bit and Scarf is still really mediocre, which means that if it rises it does so primarily on the strength of its NP set. That's a very good set, but the teams it tended to break have already started finding ways to deal with it. It's an extremely threatening breaker, but we are not short of those in UU. I do think that it still has even more unexplored sets, though, and I guess I wouldn't be opposed to seeing it rise, but I'd maybe wait a bit and see if the meta settles around it further.

Rotom-H to A: Hard disagree here. A- is the perfect place for Oven Mitts. It's a great Defogger against teams that rely on things like Gligar or Hippo or Mamo as their rockers, and it's a solid check to a lot of scary threats, but while it can do a lot on a team it doesn't do any single thing all that well. Rotom heavily relies on status and Z-moves to provide any kind of relevant offensive presence, struggles with longevity, hates going up against teams with Rockers that it can't switch in on (like Kommo and Empo and Terrak), and can absolutely open teams up to things like Z-Hydreigon if you don't build carefully. It's still a very good 'mon, and A- is a great place for it. Let's leave it there for a while.

Gligar to A-: Disagree. I love Gligar but boy is it easy to take advantage of. It's not actually that great of a Terrakion check, especially because like.... you can switch half your team into Gligar without fear, so at best all you really end up doing is resetting things. And while Gligar is great role compression, in actual play it tends to get overwhelmed. It'll come in on something it needs to check, and suddenly you're forced with a bunch of bad options: if you click Rocks or Roost you're inviting in one of the many, many things in the tier that take advantage of Gligar's passivity, and if you U-turn out immediately you just end up wearing yourself down to the point where you can no longer reliably check stuff like Terrak. It is good on BO as a temporary check to a bunch of 'mons and for a slow U-turn into a breaker of choice, but again, it has significant drawbacks and can downright be a liability in some matchups.

Chesnaught to B: As much as I hate to say it, yeah, I agree with this one. Spikes are still crazy good right now but a lot of meta trends just don't favor Chesnaught, and seeing Zera/Bish drop in usage means that it has way fewer free turns to get in and start spiking. It's still a solid 'mon on the right team, but... yeah. Sorry, Chesnaught, you're still my fav.

Gengar to B+: Agree. Gengar has always been one of the most frustrating things to switch into for just about any playstyle. Even against a team with Krook, it's really easy to claim a kill with Gengar just about every game if you have decent prediction, and when this thing is behind a sub it's incredibly difficult to deal with. And against teams without Krook, it can just go in.

Chandelure to B-: Hard to say. I haven't seen Chandy much at all recently. I never was all that big on the Chandy hype train to begin with, but I do think that some of its flaws are being overstated a bit. That said, I think we ended up rising it more drastically than we should have, so adjusting downward isn't crazy.

Mega Bird to C+: Iffy on this one also. I actually still really like Pidge - U-turn Pidge alongside a fighting-type breaker like Terrak, Ape or mixed Kommo is really annoying for a lot of teams to deal with - but it is a really big pain to build around and absolutely struggles against many common threats. Seeing it drop to C+ definitely isn't crazy, though it'll make me a bit sad.

Swampert to C+: Agree. No recovery and no resistance to Fighting makes this struggle compared to other bulky Waters or Grounds. It's unreliable as a Volt Switch blocker, too. It still has some use, but its days as one of the top bulky Waters in UU are a thing of the distant past.

Also, not on the discussion slate but since it has been brought up: definitely down with Amoonguss rising to A-.
 
Mega Beedrill from B to B-


This thing doesn't see much usage anymore, and for good reason. There are so many better mega slot possibilities and things that do what Beedrill does without wasting the slot. Mega Altaria and Mega Manecetric are better megas . Scizor is a better bug, as it can actually come in on something, isn't weak to rocks, and has a strong STAB priority attack. Overall, Beedrill just kinda blows at the moment. It's super powerful and stuff, the Meta just isnt kind to it atm.

Don't worry, I still love you Barry
 

Adaam

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Y’all need to stop bullying Swampert. He’s jacked. Not only that, but he wears the freshest clothes, eats at the chillest restaurants, and hangs out with the hottest dudes.

On a more serious note, it is the best defensive rocker to keep them up against the ubiquitous Rotom-H. It still serves as a phenomenal Aero check while soft checking a plethora of physical attackers like Mamoswine and Scizor. Toxic makes it pretty annoying to switch into since we have very few Grass-types or Grass-type coverage in UU, and none of them are immediate threats like Serp or Loom once were. It also walls BoltBeam Lati which is pretty neat. I really wanna emphasize how good it is in a Rotom-H matchup, here’s a replay for some evidence:

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen7uu-411301

We already dropped it all the way to B-, is there really any other reason to drop it further?
 
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vivalospride

can’t rest in peace cause they diggin me
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Mega Beedrill from B to B-


This thing doesn't see much usage anymore, and for good reason. There are so many better mega slot possibilities and things that do what Beedrill does without wasting the slot. Mega Altaria and Mega Manecetric are better megas . Scizor is a better bug, as it can actually come in on something, isn't weak to rocks, and has a strong STAB priority attack. Overall, Beedrill just kinda blows at the moment. It's super powerful and stuff, the Meta just isnt kind to it atm.

Don't worry, I still love you Barry
I personally think the amount of hate mega bee gets is like ridiculous. Mega Altaria and Mega Beedrill have entirely different niches so they aren't even worth comparing. Mega Beedrill's damage output with Adaptability U-Turn + Poison Jab is pretty clean and has utility with Toxic Spikes which can be super handy to help fat matchups. It also is capable of absorbing tspikes which adds to it's utility despite being made of paper machete. It's the second fastest mon in the tier and if it's coupled with reliable hazard removal it can be really tough to deal with at times... I just don't understand this mon moving down post Gliscor, even if Gligar has sorta taken it's place, Gligar doesn't get all the HP back w/ Poison Heal, it takes actual chip from rocks + U-Turn and you can force it out with whatever you come in with on the pivot. I understand it being as low as B but it going lower is something I can't understand :triumph:.

If you need a beedrill team to ladder with to see for yourself feel free to take mine n_n. https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/usum-sample-teams.3621217/post-7960649
 
I personally think the amount of hate mega bee gets is like ridiculous. Mega Altaria and Mega Beedrill have entirely different niches so they aren't even worth comparing. Mega Beedrill's damage output with Adaptability U-Turn + Poison Jab is pretty clean and has utility with Toxic Spikes which can be super handy to help fat matchups. It also is capable of absorbing tspikes which adds to it's utility despite being made of paper machete. It's the second fastest mon in the tier and if it's coupled with reliable hazard removal it can be really tough to deal with at times... I just don't understand this mon moving down post Gliscor, even if Gligar has sorta taken it's place, Gligar doesn't get all the HP back w/ Poison Heal, it takes actual chip from rocks + U-Turn and you can force it out with whatever you come in with on the pivot. I understand it being as low as B but it going lower is something I can't understand :triumph:.

If you need a beedrill team to ladder with to see for yourself feel free to take mine n_n. https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/usum-sample-teams.3621217/post-7960649
See, I agree with that it shouldn't get this much hate and that it is a good mon, the Meta is just not in it's favor atm. The reason I mentioned Altaria (and I really should have made this clear) is because of all the fighting spam going around. Yes, Beedrill resists fighting, but its dying to basically anything after like 2 switchins, even if it resists it. This means MBee has a hard time finding chances to switch in, let alone settup a swords dance/toxic spikes/etc. Altaria, on the other hand, can switch in on alot of fightings in the tier (par Terrak and Lucario unless you're running bulk vs Terrak), has alot of chances to set up, and has recovery. Another thing to note is that Bee is rocks weak, and Alt isnt, so even if you were living the hit from full with Bee, after rocks, it's probably dead. Don't get me wrong, I love Mega Bee, and I was one of the few that tried to keep it afloat in OU (I was a naive freshie back then), it's just the meta isn't in it's favor atm. Once the fighting spam disappears, I'd be happy to nom it up again. Feel free to hit me up though, Viv. I'd love to talk more about it.
 
Since when Beedrill-Mega struggles to set Toxic Spikes ? I mean, thanks to its typing and ability, Beedrill-Mega is able to force out a lot of Pokemon in Underused which means it has several opportunities to set Toxic Spikes on the opponent's field. Also, I don't think it's a good idea to talk about Swords Dance on Beedrill-Mega because this move is pure ass on it. In my opinion, Beedrill-Mega should never opt for Swords Dance as its last slot when it can run Toxic Spikes, Knock Off or even Pursuit. Also, even if Beedrill-Mega is shaky on the defensive spectrum, it can still check / RK some Pokemon like Nasty Plot Infernape/Lucario. Finally, Beedrill-Mega and Altaria-Mega can't be compared because the first one is just a fast and powerful offensive Pivot while the other is more a Bulky Setup Sweeper / Bulky Pivot. Beedrill-Mega isn't as good as Altaria-Mega but nobody here have talked about a rise of Beedrill-Mega, this Pokemon isn't the best but come on, it's worth B rank.
 
See, I agree with that it shouldn't get this much hate and that it is a good mon, the Meta is just not in it's favor atm. The reason I mentioned Altaria (and I really should have made this clear) is because of all the fighting spam going around. Yes, Beedrill resists fighting, but its dying to basically anything after like 2 switchins, even if it resists it. This means MBee has a hard time finding chances to switch in, let alone settup a swords dance/toxic spikes/etc. Altaria, on the other hand, can switch in on alot of fightings in the tier (par Terrak and Lucario unless you're running bulk vs Terrak), has alot of chances to set up, and has recovery. Another thing to note is that Bee is rocks weak, and Alt isnt, so even if you were living the hit from full with Bee, after rocks, it's probably dead. Don't get me wrong, I love Mega Bee, and I was one of the few that tried to keep it afloat in OU (I was a naive freshie back then), it's just the meta isn't in it's favor atm. Once the fighting spam disappears, I'd be happy to nom it up again. Feel free to hit me up though, Viv. I'd love to talk more about it.
I don't feel like some of these arguments about fighting spam or being SR weak has anything to do with Mbees viability right now. While Mbee isn't necassarilly all that amazing it is still able to do what it has always done. You mention how it can't eat hits well from the fighting types in the tier but it barely eats a hit from anything in general cos of its paper defences. But that isn't what Mbee is meant to be used for, it is supposed to be a fast pivot that can maybe provide some utlity support in the form of Knock Off or T-Spikes. It has ample oppurtunities to get these moves off because it can force out a lot of Pokemon thanks to its incredible speed and power due to Adaptability. Most of your argument is comparing Mbee with Malt which really doesn't make much sense because they do completely different things. Yes Malt can perform several more roles as a sweeper or wall etc. and cos of its typing it can handle the dragon and fighting types in the tier, but it can't perform the role of what Bee does. If you want to compare anything with Bee you could probably stretch to Mega-Manectric as they perform the same roles. But just like any pivot it is susceptible to hazards. Personally I think Mbee is perfectly fine where it is in B.
 
I don't feel like some of these arguments about fighting spam or being SR weak has anything to do with Mbees viability right now. While Mbee isn't necassarilly all that amazing it is still able to do what it has always done. You mention how it can't eat hits well from the fighting types in the tier but it barely eats a hit from anything in general cos of its paper defences. But that isn't what Mbee is meant to be used for, it is supposed to be a fast pivot that can maybe provide some utlity support in the form of Knock Off or T-Spikes. It has ample oppurtunities to get these moves off because it can force out a lot of Pokemon thanks to its incredible speed and power due to Adaptability. Most of your argument is comparing Mbee with Malt which really doesn't make much sense because they do completely different things. Yes Malt can perform several more roles as a sweeper or wall etc. and cos of its typing it can handle the dragon and fighting types in the tier, but it can't perform the role of what Bee does. If you want to compare anything with Bee you could probably stretch to Mega-Manectric as they perform the same roles. But just like any pivot it is susceptible to hazards. Personally I think Mbee is perfectly fine where it is in B.
Once more, I feel like I probably could have phrased this better, because people aren't getting my point. The reason I'm comparing the two is because of both using up the mega slot and finding chances to do what it's supposed to do. Not because both of them can "settup" or "sweep/clean up". I do apologize for mentioning hazards, as you are right in saying that hazards don't really matter when it comes to viability. That's my bad and I appreciate you pointing that out. However, the point still stands of Mega Beedrill just not being worth using in the Meta atm. I will do you a justice and compare it to MMane since you brought it up. Yes, Bee can get u-turns off on everything and functions as a semi-decent pivot. However, Mega Manecetric (I cannot spell this things name right ever) can pretty much volt on anything that isnt a ground type (obviously). The main difference I feel here is that Mega Manecetric can actually come in on resisted attacks, sponge them, and proceed to pivot/attack/etc. Mega Beedrill will pretty much fall apart after coming in once or twice, no matter what hit you bring it in on. Seriously, look at these calcs:

252 SpA Nihilego Sludge Wave vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Beedrill-Mega: 91-108 (33.5 - 39.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO (scarf nihilego)

252 Atk Terrakion Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Beedrill-Mega: 99-117 (36.5 - 43.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO (scarf-terrak)

252 Atk Pixilate Altaria-Mega Return vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Beedrill-Mega: 180-212 (66.4 - 78.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (offensive ddance altaria)

252+ SpA Choice Specs Primarina Moonblast vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Beedrill-Mega: 150-177 (55.3 - 65.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (specs prima)

+2 252 SpA Life Orb Lucario Focus Blast vs. 92 HP / 0 SpD Primarina: 205-242 (63.2 - 74.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (NP Lucario)

252+ Atk Choice Band Scizor U-turn vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Beedrill-Mega: 191-225 (70.4 - 83%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Overall, I feel Beedrill needs to drop to just not being worth the mega slot in the meta at the moment. It's too hard to bring in at the moment, and even though it can provide Utility with Knock off and Toxic Spikes, It's just not worth the mega slot at the moment.
 
I'm gonna keep this short because these calcs prove nothing unless you are down to your last 2-3 mons. Otherwise there is absolutely no instance where MBee should be your hard switch-in to any of these threats lol, because it is a glass cannon pivot. Bee gets plenty of opportunities to come in because you typically partner it with volturn support, doubling or when one of your mons drop. The only reason Mane has an easier time switching into things like Scizor is because of BP resist + Intimidate but it doesn't change the fact that it shouldn't be your primary answer to it and will still get chunked if any other move is used. I said you could compare them because they are the fast mega pivots but that doesnt mean they should do the same thing especially when it comes to eating a resisted hit of all things. However, you are entitled to your own opinion but if you want to continue this debate you can feel free to msg me.
 
I'm gonna keep this short because these calcs prove nothing unless you are down to your last 2-3 mons. Otherwise there is absolutely no instance where MBee should be your hard switch-in to any of these threats lol, because it is a glass cannon pivot. Bee gets plenty of opportunities to come in because you typically partner it with volturn support, doubling or when one of your mons drop. The only reason Mane has an easier time switching into things like Scizor is because of BP resist + Intimidate but it doesn't change the fact that it shouldn't be your primary answer to it and will still get chunked if any other move is used. I said you could compare them because they are the fast mega pivots but that doesnt mean they should do the same thing especially when it comes to eating a resisted hit of all things. However, you are entitled to your own opinion but if you want to continue this debate you can feel free to msg me.
If anything, it shows that Bee can eat a hit reasonably well with its resistance to KO a threat if needed. For a glass cannon, those calcs are pretty decent.
 
Overall, I feel Beedrill needs to drop to just not being worth the mega slot in the meta at the moment. It's too hard to bring in at the moment, and even though it can provide Utility with Knock off and Toxic Spikes, It's just not worth the mega slot at the moment.
Mega Bee is (arguably) the most popular mega for volt-turn teams. It's the fastest and hardest hitting option. And since U-Turn can't be blocked, it's generally more desired as a fast pivot than MegaMane. As for it's bulk, yeah it's bad, but It being able to revenge kill NP Infernape and NP Lucario is super handy and can't be overlooked. Don't drop this mon. It's still good.
 
Disagreeing with Mega Pidgeot going to C+ rank. Yes, there are fast threats and good mons with excellent priority, but Hurricane is still a tough move to deal with. 110 BP move with a decent chance of confusion is annoying to say the least. Once it's in, it's tough to stop it. I remember trying to beat it down with Florges and Aggron (pre-mega to tank Hurricane better) and it still pushed past both with confusion hax. Power creeping is an issue in UU but, Mega Pidgeot is still a decent threat.

I agree with everything that has been said about Gligar and how it should not rise, it has a tough time maintaining momentum and can get worn down if not careful which is tough to pull off in such a fast meta filled with U-Turners.

Honestly, never felt Mega Beedrill was worth being anywhere above B-. Mega Beedrill has a lot of problems when dealing with top threats and overall mainstream trends. It has a lot of difficulty with getting pursuit trapped, which leads me to wonder why anyone would say it has an easy time setting up anything. It either allows in a bulky mon to set up hazards or deal big damage to something. Or it allows in pursuit trappers like Krookodile, Scizor, and Mega Aero. Mega Bee should do what Hydreigon Scarf does, click U-Turn. M-Bee is a good mon when it comes to chipping teams down but, it does allow in free momentum a lot of the time due to no bulk on the physical side. It can force out a lot of mons but it does get forced out a lot of the times too, and at times it just gets forced out of the game in early turns. It's cool that it's at B rank, but it's not like it makes no sense for it be at B- either.
 
Im going to make a miniranking here echoing scizorphobic's opinion. I've made a team (of questionable quality to be fair) with shaymin and it preforms exceedingly well as a late game cleaner, especially with pursuit and entry hazards. This allows the team to pick off bumps in the road, such as blissey, and allow shaymin to sweep. Because of shaymins high natural bulk, it is able to take a variety of hits in the tier and fire back with seed flare, usually resulting in a K.O. Shaymin is absolutely a viable mon and deserves to be somewhere like c+.
 

ehT

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OK this might be another one of my patented hot takes but I think Moltres should be A Rank. Lemme put it this way: When's the last time you've seen Moltres take Stealth Rock? Now that people know how to build with this thing its chief flaw is so easy to compensate for with standard BO / balance stuff that what was once such a liability for it isn't really that big a deal in practice. Like it's actually lowkey splashable cause of how accessible team support for it is, which paired to the amount of stuff it beats on its own is pretty nuts. For that low a cost, the sheer amount of pressure it exerts the moment it leaves its ball between the possibility of a Z-Move, Specs (try this sometime btw, scary as shit if you aren't lazy and make something else your second Defogger), and SubToxic is just ridiculous. Unless I'm using T-Spikes Nihilego or Roost Mega Aero I've never once looked at team preview and thought "aw hell yeah they have a moltres i can exploit it with x." That just doesn't happen. Its best defensive answers are annoying to switch into but beyond that offensive pressure is super easy to mitigate for Moltres teams with your standard Fairy/Water/Steel/Ground core. Basically there's less stopping Moltres from doing its thing than just about any iteration of this metagame save for like the month before Rotom-H became a thing, and that's why I think a rise would make sense.

Other stuff:
Don't raise Gligar
Don't raise Oven Mitts
Don't drop Pidge
Don't drop Swampert
Don't drop Bee
Don't unrank Glalie
Drop Mamo
 
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Backing up a Moltres rise. Since Defog became a tutor move keeping Rocks off the field means Moltres really gets to pressure builds with its crazy dangerous STAB combination. It's a little slow, and it'd kill for better Grass coverage, but its typing and Flame Body lets it check Scizor extremely well, so it's got some defensive merit even when it's blowing shit up with Hurricane.
 
1545434368991.png
B- -> C+ Disagree

Just played 25 games with this thing today (around 1525) to see if it really fell off that hard and it seems fine to me. Hurricane is easy to spam most of the time and confusion can just power through some of the special walls in the tier. It has U-turn which is great because it basically give you switches into your fighting types most of the time.

All that has already been said though. What really impressed me is how good Mega Pidg is with Scizor + fighting type of your choice. Basically everyone runs the same counters to Scizor, either a steel type or Rotom-H. Unfortunately for almost every team on the ladder, those are also their flying checks. So you just get this crazy momentum all the time and wear everything down. I know viability isnt supposed to be based on how it pairs with other mons but the meta is actually good for the bird right now. It pairs perfectly with all the meta sweepers and meta wall breakers (terrak, Scizor, Komo, Hydra) it was actually so easy to build with. Mega Pidg isnt as good as I remember it but it's definitely better than C+
 
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I agree with the Moltres rise. I'll keep this short but being able to consistently check most Steels, Altaria and some Fighting-types like Coba and Nape is super nice. Specs is also really underrated as it's able to weaken common switch-ins like Rotom-H (2HKO'd after rocks by Specs Fire Blast/Hurricane without ever procc'ing the berry) and Empoleon (2HKO'd by Specs Fire Blast) for teammates like Primarina or your own Altaria, given it hits its moves. I really like to still run Roost on it and can very well do so due to the amount of switches it forces out.
Just like eht said, its SR weakness is not that big of a deal given the amount of Defoggers ans Spinners viable in the tier, nor can you say your team really has a solid Moltes match-up without a Nihilego, Aero a Diancie or a fat spdef wall like Umbreon or Blissey on your team, which get U-Turned on anyway.
Flame Body is actually Burn Body too.
 

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