Resource USUM OU ULTRA Viability Ranking Thread

[Colonel M]

Going to conclude with a thought that's bugging me to no end: how in heaven's name is Zygarde still ranked A+ in OU but S in CAP with exactly the same sets? If anything, CAP has a flurry of extra (extremely solid) switchins (Jumbao, Arghonaut, Tomohawk) in addition to the authentic switchins OU has!

I want to make this clear just so it isn't misunderstood.

And what I say is in no way an insult to CAP because I know it is a community that is great to a lot of individuals like Jordy.

It's not a good comparison to cross-compare two tiers that have a lot of differences even if it means that one tier might see it more powerful. Remember that the CAP tournaments and most OU Tournaments are still at a completely different level as well.

I'll keep it for now, but this is just me saying in the future to avoid this. Landorus-T in CAP is also a lower tier as is Heatran, and I would disagree with Heatran in A+ (or whatever CAP had it).

As an aside - while the arguments for it were questionable I agree with an Alomomola drop as well, to C+ preferred. It has a niche but it is questionable in strength and requires some additional support to keep at it.

 

[Jordy]

→C+/B-
Kyurem is a very good balance breaker in the current metagame, and I think a rise should represent this. With the upholding popularity of Pokemon like Toxapex, Tangrowth, and Gliscor, Kyurem gets many opportunities to switch in and set Substitutes. Combined with its Ice / Ground coverage, this gives it many opportunities to bust open common balance cores such as Tangrowth + Toxapex and Gliscor + Toxapex.

→C/C-
Mimikyu doesn't have much of a niche (if any) in the current metagame.

→C+ Agree
Alomomola is honestly very bad, because it needs way too much support to efficiently work.

how in heaven's name is Zygarde still ranked A+ in OU but S in CAP with exactly the same sets? If anything, CAP has a flurry of extra (extremely solid) switchins (Jumbao, Arghonaut, Tomohawk) in addition to the authentic switchins OU has!

!dt Mega Crucibelle

On a more serious note, you shouldn't compare the two VRs, because the metagames are vastly different.

 

[Finchinator]

OU VR Drinking Game:

1 shot for every Zygarde to S nomination
1 shot for every shitmon nomination
2 shots for every post that uses many colors
3 shots for every Omari P post
5 shots for every mention of CAP

Slate will go up later this week or early next week. Get your last words in now!

 

[Finchinator]

in other news, a new policy regarding banning specific posters from the VR is in the works!

 

[MANNAT]

Hi, I've gotten a lot more into SM OU again in the last couple weeks and experimenting with building/trying and failing to innovate things so I felt like making a post on here to reflect some of the things I think are incorrectly ranked.


I think that Weavile is really fucking good right now and is ranked a lot lower than it should be. It's better than basically all of B+ and like half of A- and is just fucking great right now. I get that we're generally supposed to talk about trends, but Weavile's just always been a great mon and I think it's been ranked a good bit below where it should be for a while now. The (semi) recent discovery of the Choice Scarf set has given Weavile versatility and allows it to check shit like Zam and surprise Scarf Lando that think they're safe when you crash. Meanwhile, the Choice Band set is as good as it always is, being able to cripple some key threats like Magearna and Toxapex with Knock Off for teammates like Greninja and Tapu Lele while just muscling past teams that are thin on Ice resists, as some bulky offenses tend to be right now. A lot of standard Tangrowth/Ground/Gren type bulky offenses that people like to use right now just get carved up by it and Weavile really never is a useless Pokemon. Even when it's faced with one or multiple of its best counters, it still manages to cripple a couple mons by Knocking Off their items and can possibly Pursuit trap something like a Tornadus at a critical juncture. Overall, I'd say Weavile's performance in the current metagame merits A- rank, it's just really good rn imo.

Other miscellaneous stuff that I'm not gonna write a full explanation for since I gotta start studying:

• raise glisc (sr tox is goat)
• raise zap (its just btr than all the other mons in that rank and its coverage will never be bad/it checks everyone)
• raise exca (increased exploration of sand/driller in general is nice, checks increased gears and other stuff)
• raise serp (synthesis sets r amazing and glare is great team support)
• raise chomp (more ppl fiddling w options on helmet + offensive sets being good as ever)
• , raise latias (super splashable on bulky offense/balance, checks a million things, has a lot of room for customization)
• drop clef (lets in maw tran ie two of the best breakers and just isnt as good rn)

edit: less word-vomit-y

 

[NylaTheWolf]

OU VR Drinking Game:

1 shot for every Zygarde to S nomination
1 shot for every shitmon nomination
2 shots for every post that uses many colors
3 shots for every Omari P post
5 shots for every mention of CAP

Slate will go up later this week or early next week. Get your last words in now!

We'd be dead before the new slate goes up.

Hi, I've gotten a lot more into SM OU again in the last couple weeks and experimenting with building/trying and failing to innovate things so I felt like making a post on here to reflect some of the things I think are incorrectly ranked.

View attachment 149645
I think that Weavile is really fucking good right now and is ranked a lot lower than it should be. It's better than basically all of B+ and like half of A- and is just fucking great right now. I get that we're generally supposed to talk about trends, but Weavile's just always been a great mon and I think it's been ranked a good bit below where it should be for a while now. The (semi) recent discovery of the Choice Scarf set has given Weavile versatility and allows it to check shit like Zam and surprise Scarf Lando that think they're safe when you crash. Meanwhile, the Choice Band set is as good as it always is, being able to cripple some key threats like Magearna and Toxapex with Knock Off for teammates like Greninja and Tapu Lele while just muscling past teams that are thin on Ice resists, as some bulky offenses tend to be right now. A lot of standard Tangrowth/Ground/Gren type bulky offenses that people like to use right now just get carved up by it and Weavile really never is a useless Pokemon. Even when it's faced with one or multiple of its best counters, it still manages to cripple a couple mons by Knocking Off their items and can possibly Pursuit trap something like a Tornadus at a critical juncture. Overall, I'd say Weavile's performance in the current metagame merits A- rank, it's just really good rn imo

I may be a bit biased because Weavile is my favorite Pokemon (like he's the cutest thing), but I completely agree! I'm not 100% sure about A-, since it's really, really frail, but definitely at least B+! But if he ends up in A-, I would be beyond happy!

He can check the two best Pokemon in the tier right now: Landorus and Heatran. Landorus is obvious: if it isn't choiced scarf, he's fainting from STAB Icicle Crash, or taking a hit from getting out with Pursuit.

Hear me out with Heatran: If you go with Low Kick, he's done for. Fighting weakness and the fact he's really heavy? Yeah he's not getting out alive. In fact, he's an incredible lure for it! They will think they're going to destroy the weasel, and Weavile's like "haha no" and OHKOs (Sorry im tired and weird today)


He's a good check to a lot of the top teirs. Zygarde, Tapu Bulu, Mega Lati@s, Tornadus, Mega Pinsir, Tangrowth (2HKO)...Yeah, he's pretty good right now!

 

[NG Spencer]

Definitely disagree with a keldeo drop, for me the set ive had the most success with is sub cm w lefties. This lets keldeo act not only as a massive threat to plenty common stall archetypes in the current meta that opt for mons like mega aggron, buzzwole, quagsire, etc in order to check the mega mawiles and zygs that dominate this tier, but also keeps it decently healthy so it can act as a response to the threat of mons like heatran with the passive recovery. Sub makes keldeo harder to revenge kill as the waterium taunt cm set has the issue of no passive recovery meaning it gets worn down and you have to worry about them making a potential switch into a faster mon like kart/koko as you taunt a toxapex that could otherwise toxic you and end keldeos longevity. It should be noted that after you knock off pexes black sludge sub cm keld does in fact beat pex 1v1 so it has that going for it and keldeo pairs well with a lot of common knock users in the tier including but not limited to tornadus therian, weavile and mega scizor. Finally this set has the potential to cripple bulu for the rest of the match making it a truly insufficient check to mons like subcoil zyg which bulu could otherwise beat by running attack evs as well as say mega alakazam as its passive recovery upon switchin will be partially negated. In addition the grassy terrain benefits keldeo by healing it 12% per turn which can help to negate magma chip from heatran and you can even make low risk high reward plays like sub up vs the bulu to try and catch a potential double and only lose 12% of your hp if you get the play wrong while getting 2 chances to burn the bulu if you get it right and force them to take hazard chip.

Also I agree with a ferrothorn drop, it does not beat zygarde well at all compared to other grasses, ash grens pulse does a sizable chunk and then you're forced to either whip to try and kill the gren if they potentially stay in and fish or predict a telegraphed leech seed or go for said leech seed in an attempt to heal urself vs an incoming foe. Opting for max spdef and forgoing all that defense makes it super vulnerable to mega swamperts earthquake and the occasional superpower for kartana will just smash it. Mega mawile and heatran, two of the tiers most common and most threatening breakers abuse ferrothorn easily and you see less tapu koko in the meta and other electrics instead like washtom which can wisp it or zapdos which obviously stops ferro.

Zapdos B+ -> A-

Speaking of zapdos this thing is pretty undervalued i feel, a 3 attacks set is lethal as shit when you consider how less usage clefable gets thanks to the aforementioned mawile and heatran and most teams ways of dealing with electrics in general involves a ground and a grass type and the most common grounds in ou zyg/lando/chomp/glisc all get bopped by hp ice and grasses take a significant chunk from heat wave. This thing is also one of the best if not the best answer to that bullshit mon tornt this meta has to offer. Pressure and static make it a customizable mon as you can use it on stall with pressure to stop rockers or use static as a means of speed control for slower breakers like mawile and heracross, volt switch can even be used on it to grab momentum.

Mega Venusaur B -> B+

Another undevalued mon rn i feel, its a fairly customizable mon that takes on a lot of threats in this meta like bulu, mawile, kartana, swampert efficiently with a max phys def set and although im not a fan of spdef you can for sure use it as a agren check when paired with a dark resist but it is a stellar magearna counter and also solid heatran lure as sludge bomb into stomping tantrum straight ohkos and you dont have to worry about eq damage being weakened by terrain. However like ferrothorn it does have the problem of being a mediocre check to agren and zyg tho phys def can handle certain zyg sets decently well and it does a hell of a lot better job than ferro. Its also one of the best answers to serperior and the aformentioned bulu and again usum has brought us a lot more foggers to choose from so getting off spikes is easier for this thing and you see fewer rain teams and av ttar is not forcing out venusaur anytime soon with that little attack all which aid its mediocre recovery option synthesis.

Post was all over the place as i gotta go real soon but wanted to get this out but basically kelds fine where it is, drop ferro and bump up venu n zap

 

[Not Miyan]

I disagree with the keldeo nom. I was using specs hp poison keldeo with knock off lando. They sync very well. It completely fucks up bulu because bulu tends to be the first switch in to that. And once tang gets knock off it doesn't switch in to Keld. I'd say there are more reasons to use keldeo. Pex is falling in usage and gren's usage is increases. And scald burns are always good on mons like pex, ferro. It is not as good as it used to be but it's not that bad either. Do not drop Keldeo.

 

[Colonel M]

Oh boy why am I posting?

Small things: Mostly agree with a lot of LL's post except I think Weavile should be B+ and not A-. I think Weavile dropping was a little hasty when it's still pretty good. Band is still pretty solid for the metagame and being able to "spam" Knock Off is still pretty nice. While there certainly aren't a lot of Psychics for it to abuse, there are a lot of mons weak to Ice that it can abuse its Icicle Crash on.

100% disagree with MVenu rise, in fact I think it should drop to B-. Mega Venusaur is plagued with a lot of issues that a lot of its other Grass-type friends don't have. First we have Amoonguss / Tangrowth with Regenerator and both can still use Assault Vest as well to further increase their effectiveness at checking Ash-Gren. While Amoonguss does worse versus Zygarde it can still absorb Toxic Spikes which some teams can still appreciate. Secondly, Mega Venusaur almost needs all of its moves, including Synthesis, to stay relevant and a threat to the opposing teams. Its very wanting of Giga Drain, Leech Seed, Earthquake, Hidden Power Fire, Sludge Bomb, and to some extents Knock Off because Seed + Knock Off is a decent combo. It gives into a lot of Pokemon to set up freely on it such as Calm Mind Magearna and offensive Heatran in way too easy. Its also very restricted in its builds too. Taking a Mega slot is a pretty big deal, and its also a Pokemon that doesn't really want to screw around with a lot of weather (which usually leaves Tyranitar out - you can build with it, but I wouldn't recommend it). Also maybe just me but a lot of MVenu builds are often very passive and bulky, but they almost feel like they're do-nothing builds (stall at least accomplishes a goal, MVenu teams feel like really bad bulky offenses IMO). I question MVenu being in the same tier as Hydreigon for example which is more splashable and brings some good utility to teams, Mew is definitely a lot better in the utility it provides and can occasionally be an offensive threat with Mewnium Z, furthermore a lot of these Pokemon listed don't need as big of support surrounding them to accomplish their goals where MVenu needs a lot of help to keep doing what it needs to do. I don't think the meta really favors Mega Venusaur. I think it's actually really bad right now.

100% disagree with Ferrothorn drop too. Like hello? Ferrothorn is way too good to drop lmao. So many builds rely on this mon to soft check quite a few threats while being self-sufficient with Leech Seed and providing Spikes or Stealth Rock. It has great utility with its ability and can even spread paralysis if you really want to as well. Overall this mon is way too good to drop - I find it surprising people actually want what is (arguably) the best Grass-type in OU to drop to A.

Some other random nomination IMO:

Drop Gastrodon to B-. It's an okay Pokemon, but it's not really a Pokemon that's like super good right now. Would say the meta having a lot of fat grasses doesn't help this thing. Don't feel terribly strong on this one in particular, but I don't know if I would have this thing over like Mamoswine which can really break through a lot of builds right now without too many issues.

 

[Gary]

If I see one fucking post/meme about Zygarde being suspected despite not being S I’m going to infract you so damn fast oml don’t test me.

 

[Sickist]

Thundurus-T: C > C+
A super good defensive typing paired with great offensive stats, especially on the special side allows Thundurus-T to function as a fast special sweeper, especially in a meta where the offensive powerhouses have made OU great again. Lack of access to Roost and weakness to Stealth Rock damage handicaps Thundurus-T (Like it does with its buddies, Tornadus-T and Landorus-T, although the latter suffers less from Stealth Rock), but in spite of this, it strikes fear into the hearts of offensive teams thanks to Agility, and can then proceed to boost up with Nasty Plot before completely decimating its targets with Thunderbolt, Hidden Power Ice, or Z-Thunderbolt. Even Zapdos, who has access to Roost, will be at the mercy of this monster as it tears through it with Hidden Power Ice. Yeah, it does face competition from pokemon such as Tapu Koko and Mega Manectric, which both have better speed tiers, but they either have worse defensive typings in the case of Tapu Koko, or don't have access to key moves such as Taunt and U-Turn, in the case of Mega Manectric. So overall, my point is here that Thundurus-T isn't that bad as to be imprisoned in C, but it can't aim for anything higher than C+ as its speed is decent, likewise with Mega Garchomp, but not that good as to outspeed a solid chunk of the tier, however, its speed tier is enough to check threats such as Landorus-T, Zygarde (Which are both Ground-Types), Tapu Lele, Mega Medicham, and even Mega Charizard Y. It also has a CRIPPLING Stealth Rock weakness, meaning that Thundurus-T is reliant on entry hazard removers such as Zapdos and Mega Charizard (both forms) in order to not die to Stealth Rock, although it has access to Defog. A weakness to Ice-Types may not sound like something so severe as to kick this beast down to UR, but the 5 viable Ice-types can come in and offensively pressure it, though all bar Alolan Ninetales don't want to switch into Focus Blast or Superpower. However, Weavile, Black Kyurem, and Kyurem are all particularly threatening as both of them have great attacking stats and due to their Ice typing, can exploit Thundurus-T's glass-cannon-like defenses, particularly Thundurus-T's physical defense, and prepare to hit back hard with moves like Ice Shard, Freeze Shock, and Glaciate, respectively. Avalugg could also be used as a check to Thundurus-T thanks to access to moves like Ice Ball and Ice Fang, but its lower special defense leaves it vulnerable to Focus Blast. Again, none of them want to take a Focus Blast or Superpower. Alolan Ninetales doesn't really mind Focus Blast, but its lower physical defense does leave it vulnerable to Superpower and Smart Strike. Even with its high special attack, Thundurus-T is still very reliant on Nasty Plot to boost and do damage, because otherwise, pokemon such as Ferrothorn, Latios, and AV Tangrowth easily tank it comfortably.
Anyways, here is a set that I made in pokemon showdown:
Thundurus-Therian @ Electrium Z
Ability: Volt Absorb
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 1 Atk
- Agility
- Thunderbolt
- Hidden Power [Ice]
- Nasty Plot

I don't know where to start on this...

First off: The Charizards are no hazard removers. Second: This mon isnt any better than it was before. In fact, it's probably slightly worse with Zygarde and Bulu being everywhere. Your argument makes 0 sense and it's really just you trying to justify using this because you like this mon. Sorry to be blunt, but if you're going to nom something, make sure you know what you're talking about.

 

[SeniorGibus]

Nobody missed me but I'm back.

Thundurus-T to C+ - Disagree

The above nomination doesn't exactly detail what's changed for Thundurus, and until there's some sizable meta-shifts I don't see why C is a bad rank for it. It's a niece but powerful mon that poses a threat to some teams, just as most pokemon in C at the moment. Double dance can be a nice win condition against a lot of styles, but there's far more reliable and versatile pokemon to fill about the same role. A "better defensive typing" is kind of a moot point considering it's not taking many crucial moves reliably, especially with rocks up. Thundurus gets worn down hard by rocks, and while volt absorb can be very useful at times, most teams when played correctly simply don't give Thundurus the opportunity to set up for free, or wall it outright with the very prevalent bulky grass mons in OU.

Defensive Calculations

0 Atk Tapu Bulu Horn Leech vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Thundurus-Therian in Grassy Terrain: 102-120 (34.1 - 40.1%) -- 32.8% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
+2 0 Atk Tapu Bulu Horn Leech vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Thundurus-Therian in Grassy Terrain: 203-239 (67.8 - 79.9%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
0 Atk Tapu Bulu Bloom Doom (140 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Thundurus-Therian in Grassy Terrain: 189-223 (63.2 - 74.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
148 Atk Landorus-Therian Rock Slide vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Thundurus-Therian: 222-262 (74.2 - 87.6%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252+ Atk Hawlucha High Jump Kick vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Thundurus-Therian: 246-290 (82.2 - 96.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Tapu Koko Hidden Power Ice vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Thundurus-Therian: 126-150 (42.1 - 50.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Choice Specs Tapu Koko Hidden Power Ice vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Thundurus-Therian: 190-224 (63.5 - 74.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
0 Atk Ferrothorn Gyro Ball (150 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Thundurus-Therian: 102-121 (34.1 - 40.4%) -- 44.1% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Kartana Leaf Blade vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Thundurus-Therian: 127-150 (42.4 - 50.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock


and etc. point is thundurus can barely take a hit with only one switch in of stealth rock, on top of obviously being slower and requiring set-up compared to tapu koko.

Offensive Calculations

+2 252 SpA Thundurus-Therian Hidden Power Ice vs. 224 HP / 216+ SpD Tapu Bulu: 218-258 (64.6 - 76.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock, Leftovers recovery, and Grassy Terrain recovery
+2 252 SpA Thundurus-Therian Gigavolt Havoc (175 BP) vs. 224 HP / 216+ SpD Tapu Bulu: 237-279 (70.3 - 82.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock, Leftovers recovery, and Grassy Terrain recovery
+2 252 SpA Thundurus-Therian Thunderbolt vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Tapu Koko: 201-237 (71.5 - 84.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252 SpA Thundurus-Therian Gigavolt Havoc (175 BP) vs. 252 HP / 164+ SpD Ferrothorn: 216-254 (61.3 - 72.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
+2 252 SpA Thundurus-Therian Gigavolt Havoc (175 BP) vs. 252 HP / 228+ SpD Assault Vest Tangrowth: 229-270 (56.6 - 66.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

Yes, it clearly hits hard but with the defensive calculations this really shows Thundurus needs several turns of set up to sweep vs most balance and offensive teams.

Conclusion: Thundurus-T is a monster. It can destroy a lot of pokemon but ends up working better in theory than in practice, as not many teams will give thundurus the leeway to dual dance or even just nasty plot for free. I'm not to deny it's niece or power, but to simply point out that it's not underanked nor has any meta-shift boosted Thundurus' viability.

Keldeo Drop -Disagree
Keldeo looks terrible at first glance, but in reality the multitude of sets it can run to beat some of it's would-be counter can make the right Keldeo terribly difficult to play around. Taunt variants can beat pex, HP poison or even toxic on a choice can mess up a spdef bulu, and it's power to eat up a good bit of hits with actual bulk backs up the good dual STAB vs offensive teams. Its weaknesses can be propped up by techs on teammates, such as knock lando and other ways to cripple, wear down to kill counters to your specific keldeo set. It's not a great pokemon, don't get me wrong. But it's simply fine as it is for now.

Weavile Rise - Agree
I was gone for a good bit of time so I have no comment on the initial drop of weavile but it's clearly a big threat and benefiting from recent meta-trends. Serperior, which can be picked off with ice shard, threatened out or even revenge killed by a certain cloth item related set. Knock off is very hard to switch into, loosing crucial items like leftovers, AVs and potentially choice items can mess up an opponent's game-plan. In general, a lot of pokemon weak to ice are huge right now, and weavile's knock off scares off a lot of popular resists. Lati's, zygarde, tangrowth and tornadus are all huge right now, meaning weavile has plenty of opportunities to fire off free attacks.

 

[DeltaInsurgent]

I know I’m just some random punk who probabaly doesn’t know what he’s talking about considering this is my first ever nomination, but I’d like to agree with previous nominations for Mega Garchomp from C- to C/C+.

I frankly don’t know what it’s doing down here, considering that it has several desirable traits such as:

- The same offensive power as KyuB
- Swords Dance to amplify it’s power to incredible heights
- Ability to absolutley slam non-EQ immune Mons under Sand (or Stomping Tantrum if you’re afraid of Grassy Terrain)
- Loads of coverage (most of which it doesn’t use but theoretically could, like Surf I guess)
- Ability to set hazards and play a more defensive role with 108/115/95 defenses

However, I will admit it does have some drawbacks, such as a 10 point loss in Speed from regular Garchomp and the inability to augment it with a Choice Scarf or amplify its power with a Band or Life Orb. That said, regular Chomp’s 102 Speed has been steadily losing relevance over the generations (See: Greninja, Tapu Koko, Unburden-active Hawlucha, +1 or 2 Zygarde [maybe not the best example since it has a chance of being banned in the near future, but it’s a thing at the time of this nomination], there’s a whole list of Mons with Speed-boosting moves or Mons that are just straight-up faster than normal Chomp), thereby dealing a blow to what was once a downright amazing stat. I believe that Mega Garchomp makes up for it in spades with raw power. While the SD set is cool, this is what I’ve been experimenting with on ladder:

Garchomp-Mega @ Garchompite
Ability: Sand Force
EVs: 96 Atk / 160 SpA / 252 Spe
Naive Nature
- Earthquake
- Draco Meteor
- Stone Edge
- Fire Blast

While unorthodox, this set can punch holes in many teams and has a chance to OHKO or do serious damage to many relevant Mons.

(Currently) Relevant calcs here:

160 SpA Garchomp-Mega Draco Meteor vs. 188 HP / 0 SpD Zygarde: 390-462 (96.5 - 114.3%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO after Leftovers recovery

160 SpA Garchomp-Mega Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Landorus-Therian: 226-267 (59.1 - 69.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery (Useful because they expect an EQ or DClaw and lose over half their health on switching in instead if it lands)

160 SpA Garchomp-Mega Fire Blast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Tapu Bulu: 222-262 (79 - 93.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Grassy Terrain recovery

96 Atk Garchomp-Mega Stone Edge vs. 248 HP / 240+ Def Zapdos: 198-234 (51.6 - 61%) -- 94.9% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery (Draco actually does slightly more here but prevents you from potentially checking a Zygarde coming in next)

Through my own admission, I will say that occasionally I wished I was running the SD set to break through stally Pokémon such as Chansey or Mega Sableye, or bulkier Pokémon I don’t have the coverage to hit, such as Mega Gyarados or Rotom-Wash. Overall, though, I don’t believe that Mega Garchomp is currently in the right place and that it deserves a rise, and I’d honestly say to B- if I was feeling ballsy, but that’s probabaly pushing my luck.

 

[Finchinator]

brb until post-suspect

 

[Finchinator]

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1078776763654713344

 

[Finchinator]

We will likely be doing a slate on the "new" metagame after SPL Week 1.

In the meantime, everyone enjoy the new banner.

 

[Finchinator]

Hey guys, we're back

The council pretty much voted on what they believed should change from the higher ranks given recent metagame changes, specifically in response to the Zygarde ban and the first few weeks of SPL. Any change that is reflected below had support from 3/5 or more of the members of the VR Council and please note that there will be more focus on potential oversights and lower ranked Pokemon moving forward as we get a better idea of the "new" metagame and see more trends develop throughout SPL. This also should make sense of why this is a relatively smaller slate despite it being a fairly long time, so please don't ask me why as I've already had dozens of people break rule #1 of asking me when the thread would open.

Rises

• 
  from A to A+: Mega Alakazam has been A+ before and it's back in the spotlight of A+ once more now. Surprisingly, it returned to top-tier usage during the start of SPL, where it felt like it was on pretty much every other team. Given the amount of balanced teams that it forces to play conservatively right now, Mega Alakazam is a fantastic metagame pick. In addition, abusing the presence of Toxapex is pretty huge. All things considered, Mega Alakazam is one of the best mega evolutions in the metagame and it should be no surprise to see it rise up once more despite it falling a bit in usage later in 2018 prior to this comeback.
• 
  from A- to A: Everyone's favorite generation four Pokemon is still on a steady rise through the ranks, now finding itself in the middle of A rank. Garchomp is now one of the most common Stealth Rock setters; it has two superb sets with Rocky Helmet and Rockium Z both having pretty widespread viability. All things considered, sheer usefulness and usage is enough to bump this potent landshark to A rank for the time being.
• 
  from A- to A: This one is a bit harder for me to explain as I rarely use Mega Latias myself, but I can say that balances with it have been popping up more-and-more as of late. It is a ridiculously good utility pivot that checks Heatran, which cannot be underrated in a metagame without Zygarde. While there are ways to abuse it, Mega Latias is still a strong defensive presence that can pose as a win-condition as well. It should not be underestimated and given it popping up frequently, the rise to A rank should not be too surprising.
• 
  from A- to A: Rotom-Wash has been ridiculously common lately and for good reason. Zygarde being banned coupled with the noteworthy decline in Tangrowth usage and slight decline in Clefable usage has enabled the annoying washing machine more than any time prior in SM OU. Rotom-W's conventional pivot set has gained a substantial amount of traction and usage; on top of this, it also has some other uses with Choice Scarf+Trick and even Z items, as we have seen in various tournament games, so this is worth considering, too.
• 
  from A- to A: Much like Rotom-Wash, Tapu Koko now has a lot more room to play around in the current metagame. It is now much more free to use Electric attacks in general while simply posing a threat on the offensive as opposed to being more of a dedicated pivot.

Drops

• 
  from A+ to A-: Without Zygarde being in the metagame, one of the main reasons to use Tangrowth over other options has been removed. Given this, Ferrothorn has risen a bit in usage and other non-Grass type checks to Ash Greninja have improved a bit, too. While all of this has happened, Tangrowth has dropped substantially. This is why it is not only dropping, but going down all the way from A+ to A-.
• 
  from A to A-: This one is similar to Tangrowth, but on a lesser scale. Clefable is still fine and checks a number of things, but there is less overall appeal with the removal of Zygarde and the fact that it enables Pokemon such as Heatran, Magearna, and Celesteela, all of which are very common currently. Also, being deadweight vs Toxapex is a death sentence currently, which sucks.
• 
  from A- to B+: There has simply been less and less Mega Latios as time elapses. This has been the case ever since it peaked as a trend back during the middle of 2018 and this is perhaps the last drop I can see as it's too good to be much lower, but it's simply not fitting on to many teams at this time.

I'm probably going to regret this, but we are going with no discussion points for this slate. Instead, I want people to nominate whatever they feel is worthy of a change in the current metagame until the end of next week (so for the next week as Sunday is starting right about now by me). Then, spend the next week discussing the nominations made and what you believe the best placement for them could be. Sometime after that, we will have the next slate!

 

[NylaTheWolf]

Why didn’t Alomomola drop, out of curiosity?

 

[Finchinator]

Why didn’t Alomomola drop, out of curiosity?

Let's try a simple reading exercise:

The council pretty much voted on what they believed should change from the higher ranks given recent metagame changes, specifically in response to the Zygarde ban and the first few weeks of SPL.

 

[lydian]

to A:
While Tapu Bulu is an excellent pick still, I really think A+ is a bit overshooting it. To me it feels a lot more like something I’d see in the A ranks as opposed to the A+ ranks, fitting alongside the likes of Celesteela, Garchomp, and Rotom-W as strong picks but nothing as instrumental as the likes of Magearna, Mega Mawile, and Mega Alakazam in A+. Zygarde ban didn’t have too much of an impact because it was a bit of a shaky check, but I just find A+ a bit too high for it.

to B:
I could see it even going to B+ but I don’t want to overshoot it. What matters is that Jirachi is in a great state right now, the Scarf variant has made a strong comeback on BO thanks to powerful role compression and good old defensive Jirachi is still nice on Balance as probably the best OU has to offer against Magearna and Tapu Lele. Wish support is always welcome too, especially alongside teammates such as Tapu Fini and Rocky Helmet Garchomp.

to B-:
Probably should have nominated this prior to Zygarde suspect, but Mega Aggron stall is quite viable and labelling it as C rank is far from accurate I feel. Both Mega Sableye and Mega Aggron are viable picks as the go-to Stall Mega, so having such a big discrepancy between their ranks surely feels weird too.

to B-:
We saw lots of sand this SPL and this is one of sand’s main protagonists. Mega Garchomp is a deadly wallbreaker and has been used a surprising amount this SPL so I think it deserves to be ranked higher to better represent this niche. it was probably going to rise anyway if it wasn’t for the Zygarde suspect test, but regardless getting Zygarde banned is nice for sand as the constriction on teambuilding suddenly becomes a lot smaller as something like Celesteela or Rotom-W are now real ground resists, opening a handful of options now.

to C+:

to C+:

to C+:
All of these three feel a bit too low at C rank on my book. Sure it’s a really small change, but unlike most of the current C rank I could actually see these three on a serious team. Not too strong on this opinion but C rank feels too low for all three.

to UR:

to UR:

to UR:

to UR:

to UR:
Don’t mind me, just taking the trash out. But honestly, when was the last time you saw any of these on a serious team?

It’s 4 am for me so I should probably get some sleep, might post more thoughts tomorrow, we’ll see!

 

[Ruft]

from B+ to A-

Mega Charizard X gained a lot from Zygarde's ban. It has less competition as a Dragon Dance sweeper and feels less threatened.

I feel like it has less reason to run Dragon Claw and can instead run Earthquake to check Heatran, which is as popular as ever since Zygarde got banned (as well as deal with others like Diancie, Toxapex, Tyranitar, Tapu Fini, Tapu Koko, etc.), paired with Flare Blitz + Dragon Dance + Roost, which makes it a potent setup sweeper capable of regenerating chip (recoil or potentially Stealth Rock) damage.

However, it still has a lot of reason to run Dragon Claw to better deal with the likes of Garchomp (which is on the rise), as well as Lati@s and Pelipper, which makes three attacks + Roost (wallbreaker) or three attacks + Dragon Dance (sweeper) still very attractive and viable options.

I think mostly the fact that it's arguably the best Dragon Dance sweeper right now (Gyarados really hates to see Rotom-Wash and Tapu Koko rise), as well as a solid check to some of the best Pokémon in the tier right now (Heatran, Magearna, Ferrothorn, Mawile, Tapu Bulu, Celesteela, Kartana, Magnezone, etc.), paired with the fact that it's quite unpredictable as it is capable of running many different sets (almost any combination of the moves Roost, Dragon Dance, Flare Blitz, Earthquake, Dragon Claw/Outrage and even Thunder Punch, it could even be Y on preview) make it worthy of a rise.

I think I saw it quite a number of times in Blunder's Grand PokéTour 2018 too.

to B-

I think this is overshooting it. I believe the opportunity cost of running Mega Garchomp in favor of another Mega is still way too high. I think it could find its home in C+.

to UR

I disagree with this one. Trick Room is still somewhat viable and Alolan Marowak is one of the greatest abusers of it. It's one of the hardest hitters in the tier (if not the hardest) and if it comes in after Uxie used Memento it can even pull of a Swords Dance which allows it to OHKO pretty much everything, and under Trick Room this is very dangerous.

I'll give you a typical example: Uxie sets up Trick Room (and often Stealth Rock too), uses Memento and brings in Marowak. Marowak gets off a free Swords Dance as your opponent might think to go something like defensive Landorus-Therian.

+1 252+ Atk Thick Club Marowak-Alola Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 112+ Def Landorus-Therian: 409-483 (107 - 126.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Flare Blitz, Shadow Bone and Bonemerang blow away the entire tier if played correctly.

Of course, this requires setup and a good matchup for Trick Room and maybe some predictions, so it think it should remain in C- along with Trick Room setters Uxie and Cresselia.

 

[Egor]

to B- : Agree
Both M-Sableye and M-Aggron stalls have the same viability now. While M-Sableye is still the best Mega for stall imo, M-Aggron's ability to check a lot of physical attackers, notably M-Mawile, and role compression in SR, as well as being not really passive are invaluable traits for stall. And echoing Lyd, having such a big gap between M-Sableye's and M-Aggron's ranks when they're both nice team options just feels weird.

to B: Agree
The utility and role compression that Jirachi provides for teams ranging from BO to even stall is astounding. Scarf set gives a team fast Healing Wish, Speed control & an offensive check to Psychics, while defensive sets provide a team with SR and/or Wish. Also being able to handle M-Alakazam, which is again in A+, is really great.

 

[Astra]

Few hot takes for you all:

down to C-
The loss of Zygarde means that Avalugg's main Pokemon to counter is gone, leaving it with an even smaller niche than before. Even so, I just don't really see it as a viable pick for a stall team anymore. Mono-Ice-type is a really bad defensive typing, and it's very weak to entry hazards, specifically Stealth Rock. As a spinner, it also takes a toll on Toxic Spikes and Spikes, which Defoggers used on stall barring Mew don't mind at all. It was tempting to make it UR, but I believe it still a considerable option if your stall team is weak to Landorus-T, Gliscor, Mega Pinsir, Mega Mawile and the like, albeit it's still a small one since Avalugg's teamslot can be a more valuable wall or a better entry hazard remover.

up to B
I was gonna go for B+, but that's probably too generous. Anyways, with the resurgence of Heatran, Keldeo makes for a nice way to halt it. Overall, with the loss of Zygarde, it got more reasons to use; it's a great stallbreaker against the growing archetype, and, considering the lowing popularity of Mega Latios and loss of Zygarde, I believe Keldeo can afford to run Hidden Power Poison to take on Tapu Bulu, which is commonly paired with Heatran. Icy Wind is still a good move though, but I think both of those moves are much more interchangeable now. In general, I believe that Keldeo got a lot more stronger and can take on many Pokemon that enjoy Zygarde being gone, as well as hold off the ever-growing stall teams.

down to B-
Psychic-types seem to be getting stronger with the rises of Mega Alakazam and Mega Latias, which makes one reason why Mega Venusaur is losing relevance. It faces heavy competition with Toxapex, which has better utility and durability with more PP in Recover than Synthesis and Regenerator with the added addition of not taking up a Mega slot.

 

[Adapt or Die]

Thoughts on Lyd's Discussion Slate

to A:
Disagree I feel like zyg band has freed bulu up to run more sets and add to it unpredictability. Choice Band is ridiculously hard to switch into. Also appreciates less Tang and is still a premier Ash-Gren switch in. Bulu should stay in A+.

to B:
Agree Jirachi is insanely useful and like most steel types appreciates the ban.

to B-:
Strong Agree: I actually think Mega-Aggron stall is better than Mega-Sab stall right now. Power creep just seems to have caught upto Sab to the point where it can't reliably bounce back hazards from offensive rockers and is reduced to checking strictly support mons and medicham.

to B-:
Strong Agree: I was a skeptic of Mega-chomp earlier, but oh boy should this dude rise. Premier sand mega on an archetype that is gaining steam. bulky as hell and hits like an atomic missle.

to C+:

to C+:
Agree on these two: Crawdaunt is threatening as hell and Kyurem is annoying as hell while actually being able to threaten unlike most other annoying as hell mons. I won't comment on M-Gallade as I feel like I've only faced bad players using it.

to UR:

to UR:
Disagree: Dnite is a relatively threatening dd sweeper and an ok zygarde substitute. Alola-wak is a Trick Room staple which gives it a C- niche.

to UR:

to UR:

to UR:
Agree: These mons are complete trash. Shuckle is the only one I see people use with any consistency and it's just so easy to exploit unlike araqua and ribombee which set webs SO much better.

Ninetales and Venusaur for C-:
I've been playing Sun a lot recently and it's at least as viable as other niche cheese builds like trick room or webs if not quite reaching the heights of rain or sand. I've written up a sun team that I used to get to 1950 on the ladder. Venusaur is the premier sun abuser while Ninetales is the better of the two heat rock setters in my opinion. As an archetype Sun stomps all over stall, while having solid matchups against balance and bulky offense. It struggles against sand, and either dominates or gets crushed by rain depending on who can effectively win the weather war. Recommended sets:

Venusaur @ Life Orb
Ability: Chlorophyll
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid/Hasty Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Solar Beam
- Sludge Bomb
- Hidden Power [Fire]/Earthquake
- Growth

This set outspeeds everything slower than scarf greninja. As for power I think these calcs will suffice:

+2 252+ SpA Life Orb Venusaur Solar Beam vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Toxapex: 263-309 (86.5 - 101.6%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock and Black Sludge recovery
+6 252+ SpA Life Orb Venusaur Solar Beam vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Eviolite Chansey: 590-695 (83.9 - 98.8%) -- 75% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
(yes +6 on chansey is a relevant calc as chansey can't ko before boost to +6)

HP fire lets you hit ferrothorn and Celesteela and gets 1.5 in the sun. Equake for heatran and the rare alola-muk.

Ninetales @ Heat Rock
Ability: Drought
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Fire Blast
- Solar Beam
- Hypnosis
- Hidden Power [Electric]

Heat rock for max sun turns. Fire Blast and solar beam give nice fire grass coverage and have ok power in the sun. The two things that make me think Tales is a lot better than Tork are hypnosis and HP Electric. HP Electric koes Pelly after rocks and tilts the rain matchup in Suns favor. Hypnosis accuracy is shit, but 60% of time is incapacitating a mon and giving you free momentum to switch in one of your abusers.

Replays Update: Been real busy so wasn't able to get the replays I wanted, anyways for more replays of sun check out my RMT
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-850365073 (Venusaur eats a stall team)
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-850402037 (Ninetales incapacitates Hippo to tilt weather)

 

[Piggypassking]

Kartana to a+
it has good physical defense, good speed and an INSANE 181 base attack and beast boost to INCREASE its insane attack. All of it's three viable sets (sd scarf and band) are all sweepers that every team has to for example scarf makes for an amazing revenge killer that can also sweep if the rest of the team takes super effective or neutral damage to it. The swords dance set can swords dance on forced switches to take out it’s checks (for example Heatran with sacred sword after an sd is a ohko) and then sweep and destroy Lando t with a z move (or Heatran or tornadus t) band is overkill but it’s a good late game sweeper that is terrifying in niche situations when the team is weak or neutral to one of it’s moves

Mamoswine to b+
good bulk, decent speed, huge attack and having the 2 best attacking types in the game (fight me!) this thing is quite literally a mammoth it destroys lando t, garchomp, heatran, m diancie and all of the good steel types (except for ferrothorn) it can ice shard weakened foes and icicle crash lando t and garchomp into oblivion and even annoy Ferrothorn with flinch hax and knock off and earthquake’s high base power is always useful against healthy Pokémon that resist it’s ice stabs and it is also useful to do damage to weakened threats that won’t die to ic or is so it can fit on many kinds of teams unlike the other b tiers who are good but only on one kind of team

Shuckle to ur
it’s purely a sticky web setter nothing else

Uxie to ur
it’s just a trick room setter that can’t do anything else but memento so it’s completely outclassed by Cresselia